Should I avoid dating someone who has this in them to do?
June 5, 2012 8:13 PM Subscribe
Should I avoid dating someone who, as part of a "game," punched a woman until she bruised severely?
I am in my 20's, female, and was talking to this guy on an online dating site. Cute, smart, educated, seemed really great. Looked him up, found some of his photos. One of them is him and a woman. His arm sort of bruised, the woman's arm SEVERELY bruised. The caption said they were playing some kind of "punch for punch" game.
I got the chills when I saw that. I was creeped out at the idea that he had that in him to punch a woman that hard to injure her arm like that, even as part of a game.
But I need another perspective. After all it was just a game, one that she willingly engaged in. She had a big smile in the photos and looked perfectly happy.
For the past few days this guy happened to be out of contact with me, and I was actually kind of relieved at that, thinking he was just fading out of contact. I thought, okay, I won't get involved with him and that's probably good.
But today he wrote back a long message with a lot of enthusiasm and just seemed like a really cool person again.
So, now I'm conflicted and really need outside perspectives on this.
I am in my 20's, female, and was talking to this guy on an online dating site. Cute, smart, educated, seemed really great. Looked him up, found some of his photos. One of them is him and a woman. His arm sort of bruised, the woman's arm SEVERELY bruised. The caption said they were playing some kind of "punch for punch" game.
I got the chills when I saw that. I was creeped out at the idea that he had that in him to punch a woman that hard to injure her arm like that, even as part of a game.
But I need another perspective. After all it was just a game, one that she willingly engaged in. She had a big smile in the photos and looked perfectly happy.
For the past few days this guy happened to be out of contact with me, and I was actually kind of relieved at that, thinking he was just fading out of contact. I thought, okay, I won't get involved with him and that's probably good.
But today he wrote back a long message with a lot of enthusiasm and just seemed like a really cool person again.
So, now I'm conflicted and really need outside perspectives on this.
I wouldn't date him, but YMMV.
I was creeped out at the idea that he had that in him to punch a woman that hard to injure her arm like that, even as part of a game.
Is not really a great start to any kind of potential relationship.
posted by mleigh at 8:16 PM on June 5, 2012
I was creeped out at the idea that he had that in him to punch a woman that hard to injure her arm like that, even as part of a game.
Is not really a great start to any kind of potential relationship.
posted by mleigh at 8:16 PM on June 5, 2012
There's no way for the internet to answer your question. Maybe it was a totally harmless game, or maybe he was a little too willing to play it, maybe he only punched her the once and her bruise(s) were mainly due to prior matches. We don't know any of this. You need to talk to him about it if you really want to know, or decide that knowing it happened is cause for concern and proceed cautiously or not at all.
posted by axiom at 8:16 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by axiom at 8:16 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
You are totally permitted to not date this guy. He can seem like a really cool person and also engage in an activity that you find creepy to the point that you don't think you should date him. Actually, that combination describes at least two people I chose to not date, and I don't regret either decision.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I got the chills when I saw that. I was creeped out at the idea that he had that in him to punch a woman that hard to injure her arm like that, even as part of a game.
I would just go with that.
posted by sweetkid at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would just go with that.
posted by sweetkid at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a woman who would totally play this game: don't date anyone who makes you uncomfortable. This sort of thing either amuses you or it doesn't. It won't get better over time. Don't put yourself in a position where you have to keep doubting your own instincts.
posted by rhythm and booze at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2012 [25 favorites]
posted by rhythm and booze at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2012 [25 favorites]
I think this is a red flag, but not necessarily a dealbreaker. I would think of it in the context of bdsm. If he used to leave bruises on his girlfriend as part of consensual sexual activity, would that be okay with you? If so, maybe give him a chance.
Then again, there are plenty of fish in the sea, and plenty of them are poisonous. If you don't have a good feeling about this situation, toss him back.
My answer would be very different if you have a history of abuse.
posted by freshwater at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
Then again, there are plenty of fish in the sea, and plenty of them are poisonous. If you don't have a good feeling about this situation, toss him back.
My answer would be very different if you have a history of abuse.
posted by freshwater at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
I've played paintball with women and paintballs leave terrible bruises. Terrible. I'm not sure this should be treated differently.
That said, whether or not you should be squicked out probably isn't as important as the fact that you are. And that's not a good way to start a relationship.
posted by Justinian at 8:20 PM on June 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
That said, whether or not you should be squicked out probably isn't as important as the fact that you are. And that's not a good way to start a relationship.
posted by Justinian at 8:20 PM on June 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Some people bruise incredibly easy. I had a friend in high school whom you could reliably bruise by gently tapping him in the same spot with a pen for 30 seconds. There's no way of knowing how hard these punches were.
Tagging with "domesticviolence" when this appears to have been the result of consensual activity between adults is incredibly insensitive.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:21 PM on June 5, 2012 [27 favorites]
Tagging with "domesticviolence" when this appears to have been the result of consensual activity between adults is incredibly insensitive.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:21 PM on June 5, 2012 [27 favorites]
sure, it might be harmless. who knows? but there are lots of cute, smart, educated, really great guys who have not punched a woman until she bruised as part of a game. maybe go for one of those.
posted by peachfuzz at 8:21 PM on June 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by peachfuzz at 8:21 PM on June 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
You should not date him because you don't want to date him, not because you found a picture on the Internet for which you have no context, no background, no explanation. For all you know, it's a JOKE, and they painted bruises on. (Not saying that's likely, but you just don't know, do you?)
It's highly unlikely that he'll want to play punching games with you on your first date, so give him the benefit of the doubt and, when the time is right, ask. After all, he put it out there, he deserves the scrutiny.
But don't write him off, or worse, falsely create an image of him that may be wholly unwarranted.
posted by war wrath of wraith at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2012
It's highly unlikely that he'll want to play punching games with you on your first date, so give him the benefit of the doubt and, when the time is right, ask. After all, he put it out there, he deserves the scrutiny.
But don't write him off, or worse, falsely create an image of him that may be wholly unwarranted.
posted by war wrath of wraith at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2012
freshwater: "Then again, there are plenty of fish in the sea, and plenty of them are poisonous. If you don't have a good feeling about this situation, toss him back."
I would second this, except to say that this fish may not be poisonous, it may just be one that doesn't agree with you. And that's okay, too. If this guy is making you feel all "domesticviolence" then you're probably not going to be comfortable going out with him.
posted by Night_owl at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would second this, except to say that this fish may not be poisonous, it may just be one that doesn't agree with you. And that's okay, too. If this guy is making you feel all "domesticviolence" then you're probably not going to be comfortable going out with him.
posted by Night_owl at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would be more distressed by the game itself than I would be by who he punched.
And yes, generally I think it wise to heed flags on folks who give you the willies, especially if you haven't met them yet.
posted by space_cookie at 8:25 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
And yes, generally I think it wise to heed flags on folks who give you the willies, especially if you haven't met them yet.
posted by space_cookie at 8:25 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I am a man in my mid-20s. I was raised (and live) in cosmopolitan communities that value gender equity. I would have serious questions about the upbringing and values of the sort of man that would play a "punch for punch" game with a woman under any circumstances. I would not be overly concerned aboutan inclination to domestic violence, but I would thereafter think of him (at best) as a person seriously lacking in judgment and maturity.
It sounds like you have your own reasons for striking him as a potential date, and I think it's fine to go on that: there are billions of people in the world, and it's rather difficult to be too selective about who you date.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:30 PM on June 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you have your own reasons for striking him as a potential date, and I think it's fine to go on that: there are billions of people in the world, and it's rather difficult to be too selective about who you date.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:30 PM on June 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
OH MY GOD YES.
Yes.
Okay?
Seriously.
Go with your gut.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:32 PM on June 5, 2012
Yes.
Okay?
Seriously.
Go with your gut.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:32 PM on June 5, 2012
You shouldn't go out with him because even though it's 100% completely possible and believable that this was a game the lady was totally into and she bruises easily and wasn't hit very hard and isn't actually hurt at all and even if she were she wanted to play the game and knew the risks and seems to be just fine with it--YOU are uncomfortable with it. Uncomfortable enough to brand this guy (in a tag and clearly in your own mind) as a domestic abuser based on one photograph. Which is kind of lame and unfair of you but totally not the point.
Do not go on a date with him. You deserve someone you feel comfortable being with, and he deserves someone who doesn't think he's a creep based on a photograph.
posted by phunniemee at 8:33 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Do not go on a date with him. You deserve someone you feel comfortable being with, and he deserves someone who doesn't think he's a creep based on a photograph.
posted by phunniemee at 8:33 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I am a woman who has played this game and would not judge any dude who played it with me. But I am a pretty physical, rough-and-tumble person. I see it as harmless rough-housing, but there are plenty of people who would never participate in such a thing and wondering why the hell anyone would.
It doesn't mean he's abusive or crazy or something; if that is the sole reason you're worried, then I would give the guy a chance. But if this is squicking you out beyond "Oh God, does this mean he's violent" it does mean there is an aspect of his personality with which you have a serious incompatibility, and that's totally OK. It would be like if hunting made you seriously uncomfortable and you saw pictures of him hunting. When he puts up a picture like that he's saying "I like to do this stuff with my friends". If things like that are not something that you want to see him doing if you were dating him, then it's best for both of you if you don't pursue it.
posted by Anonymous at 8:34 PM on June 5, 2012
It doesn't mean he's abusive or crazy or something; if that is the sole reason you're worried, then I would give the guy a chance. But if this is squicking you out beyond "Oh God, does this mean he's violent" it does mean there is an aspect of his personality with which you have a serious incompatibility, and that's totally OK. It would be like if hunting made you seriously uncomfortable and you saw pictures of him hunting. When he puts up a picture like that he's saying "I like to do this stuff with my friends". If things like that are not something that you want to see him doing if you were dating him, then it's best for both of you if you don't pursue it.
posted by Anonymous at 8:34 PM on June 5, 2012
Yeah, you really answered this for yourself. It creeps you out so that's that.
Do I think this in any way indicates that he is abusive? No. Everyone has done weird stuff at parties. One time one of my friends stood on another friend's head during a dumb play fight.
Do not go on a date with him. You deserve someone you feel comfortable being with, and he deserves someone who doesn't think he's a creep based on a photograph.
x1,000,000
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:36 PM on June 5, 2012
Do I think this in any way indicates that he is abusive? No. Everyone has done weird stuff at parties. One time one of my friends stood on another friend's head during a dumb play fight.
Do not go on a date with him. You deserve someone you feel comfortable being with, and he deserves someone who doesn't think he's a creep based on a photograph.
x1,000,000
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:36 PM on June 5, 2012
Could the caption be a joke? Maybe both coincidentally happened to have bruising on their arm, so someone jokingly wrote beneath that they'd been having a punch-up?
There are definitely exceptions, but bruises often take days to appear, so if the picture seems to imply that they've just been having a punch up and the bruises have appeared instantaneously on both of them, perhaps all is not as it seems?
posted by Fairisle at 8:36 PM on June 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
There are definitely exceptions, but bruises often take days to appear, so if the picture seems to imply that they've just been having a punch up and the bruises have appeared instantaneously on both of them, perhaps all is not as it seems?
posted by Fairisle at 8:36 PM on June 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
I'd be less worried about his playing this game than about the fact that he doesn't realize that such pictures might be a little off-putting (to say the least). Seems a little on the daft side -- unless, of course, his intent is to filter out those who are squeamish on matters involving that sort of consensual roughhousing (such as someone who might jump to suspicions of domestic abuse on the basis of that photograph alone).
posted by matlock expressway at 8:43 PM on June 5, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by matlock expressway at 8:43 PM on June 5, 2012 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Folks please just answer the question
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:46 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:46 PM on June 5, 2012
eems a little on the daft side -- unless, of course, his intent is to filter out those who are squeamish on matters involving that sort of consensual roughhousing (such as someone who might jump to suspicions of domestic abuse on the basis of that photograph alone).
The way she phrased the question, she seems to have found him on Facebook so these were not dating site pictures. "Looked him up, found some of his photos." I figured this was important enough to mention since putting them up on your dating profile gives it a different feel vs. just a collection of random party photos.
There's no context to these pictures, basically, except his written caption.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:48 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
The way she phrased the question, she seems to have found him on Facebook so these were not dating site pictures. "Looked him up, found some of his photos." I figured this was important enough to mention since putting them up on your dating profile gives it a different feel vs. just a collection of random party photos.
There's no context to these pictures, basically, except his written caption.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:48 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
[Folks please just answer the question]
Third try: YES. Please do avoid dating this person.
posted by joe lisboa at 9:18 PM on June 5, 2012
Third try: YES. Please do avoid dating this person.
posted by joe lisboa at 9:18 PM on June 5, 2012
What does "looked up" mean? Are you sure he punched her?
posted by amodelcitizen at 9:21 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by amodelcitizen at 9:21 PM on June 5, 2012
If you can't happily picture yourself in her place, then look elsewhere. She probably did enjoy it but that doesn't mean you would/could/should. Just move on.
posted by bricoleur at 9:26 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by bricoleur at 9:26 PM on June 5, 2012
"Bruises take days to appear."
So true! I bruise really really easily. I've got a few whoppers right now that have definitely.
Maybe the caption is a joke?
posted by jbenben at 9:26 PM on June 5, 2012
So true! I bruise really really easily. I've got a few whoppers right now that have definitely.
Maybe the caption is a joke?
posted by jbenben at 9:26 PM on June 5, 2012
*I* would avoid dating him.
A friend went on a date with a guy who mentioned playing a similar game with an ex. Showed her pictures of it and everything (this girl was also smiling). Later the guy confided to her that he can *only* enjoy sex if he's pretending to rape a women - choking her to the point where she almost passes out.... My friend said she wouldn't be into that, but he kept pressuring her ("oh, I'd only choke you a little, you really won't mind!"). Essentially, he didn't want to take no for an answer. My friend didn't go on a second date with him.
....guess what I'm trying to say is that, if he enjoys rough-housing with women, that's a big red flag, unless you're into it too. If it's a deal-breaker for both of you, then don't even start a relationship. Don't agree to do something you're not comfortable with, and if he's really into that kind of thing, let him find a woman who is, too.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 9:27 PM on June 5, 2012
A friend went on a date with a guy who mentioned playing a similar game with an ex. Showed her pictures of it and everything (this girl was also smiling). Later the guy confided to her that he can *only* enjoy sex if he's pretending to rape a women - choking her to the point where she almost passes out.... My friend said she wouldn't be into that, but he kept pressuring her ("oh, I'd only choke you a little, you really won't mind!"). Essentially, he didn't want to take no for an answer. My friend didn't go on a second date with him.
....guess what I'm trying to say is that, if he enjoys rough-housing with women, that's a big red flag, unless you're into it too. If it's a deal-breaker for both of you, then don't even start a relationship. Don't agree to do something you're not comfortable with, and if he's really into that kind of thing, let him find a woman who is, too.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 9:27 PM on June 5, 2012
It seems to me like you're worrying that your reaction is unfair, and that you should give him a chance despite what you instinctively feel.
It doesn't really matter if it's fair though. You're not obligated to date anyone, because you're not a commodity to which people are entitled fair access. You don't seem to want to date the guy, so you shouldn't date the guy.
FWIW, I wouldn't be creeped out by this alone, because some people - including women - enjoy roughhousing, and a willingness to roughhouse with women doesn't mean that a man is abusive. The situation isn't even all that clear. Those are just my feelings, though, and would only matter if I was the one who was trying to decide whether to date the guy or not.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
It doesn't really matter if it's fair though. You're not obligated to date anyone, because you're not a commodity to which people are entitled fair access. You don't seem to want to date the guy, so you shouldn't date the guy.
FWIW, I wouldn't be creeped out by this alone, because some people - including women - enjoy roughhousing, and a willingness to roughhouse with women doesn't mean that a man is abusive. The situation isn't even all that clear. Those are just my feelings, though, and would only matter if I was the one who was trying to decide whether to date the guy or not.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Oops. "... have definitely developed into something darker since the first day I was bruised."
posted by jbenben at 9:30 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by jbenben at 9:30 PM on June 5, 2012
Is there anything that guy could conceivably say that could alleviate the squick? You might want to give him a chance to explain himself and see how it washes.
No matter what happens, there will always be people who don't squick you out initially, just as there are dangerously squickworthy people who know enough to keep their squick off the internet, and you don't have much to lose by packing it in at this early stage.
posted by alphanerd at 9:32 PM on June 5, 2012
No matter what happens, there will always be people who don't squick you out initially, just as there are dangerously squickworthy people who know enough to keep their squick off the internet, and you don't have much to lose by packing it in at this early stage.
posted by alphanerd at 9:32 PM on June 5, 2012
There are a million other fish in the sea. Why bother with this one? If he's creeping you out, listen to that fear. As a man, I don't think I would be able to punch a woman jokingly. If I were you, I wouldn't go out with this guy.
posted by Slinga at 9:32 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by Slinga at 9:32 PM on June 5, 2012
"I got the chills when I saw that. I was creeped out at the idea [...]
For the past few days this guy happened to be out of contact with me, and I was actually kind of relieved [...] I thought, okay, I won't get involved with him and that's probably good."
This is all you need to know, really. The rest can be the greatest in the world, but that won't mitigate the fact that this still exists. What you're saying here is much more important than whatever he could be saying. Listen to yourself, not to him.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:47 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
For the past few days this guy happened to be out of contact with me, and I was actually kind of relieved [...] I thought, okay, I won't get involved with him and that's probably good."
This is all you need to know, really. The rest can be the greatest in the world, but that won't mitigate the fact that this still exists. What you're saying here is much more important than whatever he could be saying. Listen to yourself, not to him.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:47 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
'Outside perspectives' aren't going to be out on a date with this guy, so why do they get a vote?
You're not into it anymore, and that's reason enough. It doesn't even matter why. Cancel the date and don't spend time with people who creep you out.
It's ok to trust your own judgement - how other people's squick-o-meters are calibrated doesn't have anything to do with you.
posted by Space Kitty at 9:53 PM on June 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
You're not into it anymore, and that's reason enough. It doesn't even matter why. Cancel the date and don't spend time with people who creep you out.
It's ok to trust your own judgement - how other people's squick-o-meters are calibrated doesn't have anything to do with you.
posted by Space Kitty at 9:53 PM on June 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
My approach to dating sites is: if I see something that's completely offputting to me, whether it's in her photos or text, I consider that a good reason not to pursue her. I don't care whether 99% of people might think it was fine or even awesome. I don't need to decide whether 99% of people should date her — I only need to decide whether I should date her.
For instance, I'm very opposed to violence (against anyone). There are women who post photos of themselves with guns on their dating profile. My reaction to that is: OK, that's what you think is cool, so we have completely different opinions of what's cool. She has presented an image of herself that makes me think she should find someone else, i.e. not me. So I move on to the next profile. I realize there could be many reasons for it. I realize it could be a joke. I don't care. I don't have the time to think through every possibility. I'm going to go with my honest reaction.
So, applying that approach to your case: you looked at what you saw about how he presented himself, and you found it extremely offputting. He thinks it's fun or funny to make a show of being physically violent, and you apparently don't. Regardless of what the commenters on Metafilter feel about it, that alone is a great reason for you to end any contact with him. The fact that you were glad when he stopped communicating with you — that settles it.
posted by John Cohen at 10:07 PM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
For instance, I'm very opposed to violence (against anyone). There are women who post photos of themselves with guns on their dating profile. My reaction to that is: OK, that's what you think is cool, so we have completely different opinions of what's cool. She has presented an image of herself that makes me think she should find someone else, i.e. not me. So I move on to the next profile. I realize there could be many reasons for it. I realize it could be a joke. I don't care. I don't have the time to think through every possibility. I'm going to go with my honest reaction.
So, applying that approach to your case: you looked at what you saw about how he presented himself, and you found it extremely offputting. He thinks it's fun or funny to make a show of being physically violent, and you apparently don't. Regardless of what the commenters on Metafilter feel about it, that alone is a great reason for you to end any contact with him. The fact that you were glad when he stopped communicating with you — that settles it.
posted by John Cohen at 10:07 PM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you very much everyone for taking the time to reply to my question. I’ve read every reply and I really appreciate them. Many of them have been very helpful.
Seeing mods had to step in I’m wondering if I can rephrase my question a little to be more clear.
It seems many answers that I should trust my instincts, and that if I have bad feelings, I should go with that. The problem is, my purpose in asking the question was mainly to get a read on what other people’s instincts would be in the situation. (I really appreciate everyone who has given their so far). Because of my background I feel like my instincts are calibrated in a certain way. That’s why it would be useful to me to hear about a variety other people’s instincts in this situation, so that I can see whether mine are an outlier.
(The other thing is that some people said my use of the domestic violence tag was “incredibly unfair” and “insensitive and lame” so… again that doesn’t really inspire me to have a whole lot of confidence in my instincts if even voicing them makes folks think that abut me. I am sorry for offending anyone by using the domesticviolence tag. I wish I has left out my own thoughts entirely and just asked for yours. I grew up in a household with frequent domestic violence, usually directed at me, my sister and my mother. When I wrote my question it didn’t occur to me people might think I was saying that this guy was a perpetrator of DV on the woman in the photo, or I was assuming he was one at all. So I apologize for that. I only tagged domestic violence because it is what I’m trying to avoid for myself.)
So if I can rephrase my question to be more clear, I would ask, “If we assume this punching game took place and was consensual, and assume the woman bruises normally – would you have any concerns about the guy’s capacity for domestic violence based on that?
posted by Sock of Silliness at 10:08 PM on June 5, 2012
Seeing mods had to step in I’m wondering if I can rephrase my question a little to be more clear.
It seems many answers that I should trust my instincts, and that if I have bad feelings, I should go with that. The problem is, my purpose in asking the question was mainly to get a read on what other people’s instincts would be in the situation. (I really appreciate everyone who has given their so far). Because of my background I feel like my instincts are calibrated in a certain way. That’s why it would be useful to me to hear about a variety other people’s instincts in this situation, so that I can see whether mine are an outlier.
(The other thing is that some people said my use of the domestic violence tag was “incredibly unfair” and “insensitive and lame” so… again that doesn’t really inspire me to have a whole lot of confidence in my instincts if even voicing them makes folks think that abut me. I am sorry for offending anyone by using the domesticviolence tag. I wish I has left out my own thoughts entirely and just asked for yours. I grew up in a household with frequent domestic violence, usually directed at me, my sister and my mother. When I wrote my question it didn’t occur to me people might think I was saying that this guy was a perpetrator of DV on the woman in the photo, or I was assuming he was one at all. So I apologize for that. I only tagged domestic violence because it is what I’m trying to avoid for myself.)
So if I can rephrase my question to be more clear, I would ask, “If we assume this punching game took place and was consensual, and assume the woman bruises normally – would you have any concerns about the guy’s capacity for domestic violence based on that?
posted by Sock of Silliness at 10:08 PM on June 5, 2012
No, I would not in any way think that.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:17 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:17 PM on June 5, 2012
No, I would not.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:23 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:23 PM on June 5, 2012
No.
posted by desjardins at 10:42 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by desjardins at 10:42 PM on June 5, 2012
If I could make those assumptions, then no, I would not have any concerns. But working on the data here, I couldn't make those assumptions.
My instincts, with these data: In your shoes, as far as I can tell, I would ask him, neutrally, "So, that punching game picture, what's that all about?" and then I would decide based on what he said and how he said it. I can't give you specifics about every answer that would send up red flags for me, but the big ones would be if he got angry at me or if I was pretty confident he was lying.
posted by gingerest at 10:45 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
My instincts, with these data: In your shoes, as far as I can tell, I would ask him, neutrally, "So, that punching game picture, what's that all about?" and then I would decide based on what he said and how he said it. I can't give you specifics about every answer that would send up red flags for me, but the big ones would be if he got angry at me or if I was pretty confident he was lying.
posted by gingerest at 10:45 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh no. Consensual Bdsm or rough play does not equal wife beater. Why not ask about it? I'm not saying you need to explore this fetish with him, but if he had a ggg wiling partner about it enough to post pics, he's probably open to talking to you about the context those happened in.
posted by asockpuppet at 10:46 PM on June 5, 2012
posted by asockpuppet at 10:46 PM on June 5, 2012
I'm not saying you need to explore this fetish with him
Punch for punch is usually just a game played between friends. I mostly see people my age (late teens, early twenties) playing it.
OP: It was a game. She punched him, he punched her harder, and it continued until someone said, "Holy crap, you win! I give up." To me, it's pretty impressive and funny that they both ended up bruised! It wouldn't be a problem at all, but I'd politely (and quickly) decline any invitation to play that particular game with him if it ever came up.
posted by plaintiff6r at 11:37 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Punch for punch is usually just a game played between friends. I mostly see people my age (late teens, early twenties) playing it.
OP: It was a game. She punched him, he punched her harder, and it continued until someone said, "Holy crap, you win! I give up." To me, it's pretty impressive and funny that they both ended up bruised! It wouldn't be a problem at all, but I'd politely (and quickly) decline any invitation to play that particular game with him if it ever came up.
posted by plaintiff6r at 11:37 PM on June 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's a quick (not perfect) way to tell if someone is manipulative or abusive, actually. They try to force you to do things (or even think in certain ways). Little things, then slowly larger and larger things.
Prejudging a person based on this picture between friends engaged in a mutually willing social thing when the rest of this person seems cool isn't calibrating your defenses correctly.
Taking both your questions together, I'm sorry for whatever put you on this high alert, but maybe you should work on that before you date. Don't feel bad about that, but your questions boil down to "Is it normal to jump to the conclusion I did?" and the resounding answer is "No."
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:06 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Prejudging a person based on this picture between friends engaged in a mutually willing social thing when the rest of this person seems cool isn't calibrating your defenses correctly.
Taking both your questions together, I'm sorry for whatever put you on this high alert, but maybe you should work on that before you date. Don't feel bad about that, but your questions boil down to "Is it normal to jump to the conclusion I did?" and the resounding answer is "No."
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:06 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
People who do regular sparring tend to get blasé about bruises and getting hit. No-one wants any kind of lasting damage, but you can become relaxed about getting hit in the arms and body. Pain and damage become quite clear distinct concepts
My partner regularly did hard sparring with men at the gym, and she often came home with some impressive bruises. There was no vicousness or misogyny behind those injuries, she was training hard with people who respect her and occasionally accidents happened.
I don't think there needs to be any connnection between the bruises on the friends arm and a mysoginist attitude, perhaps the opposite is true, perhaps it is an indication that he has close friendships with female friends?
But in line with what gingerest has said, this is just general waffling, I don't know the guy and haven't seen the picture.
Can I just clarify something, was the punch photo on his dating profile? that would be odd.
posted by compound eye at 12:15 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
My partner regularly did hard sparring with men at the gym, and she often came home with some impressive bruises. There was no vicousness or misogyny behind those injuries, she was training hard with people who respect her and occasionally accidents happened.
I don't think there needs to be any connnection between the bruises on the friends arm and a mysoginist attitude, perhaps the opposite is true, perhaps it is an indication that he has close friendships with female friends?
But in line with what gingerest has said, this is just general waffling, I don't know the guy and haven't seen the picture.
Can I just clarify something, was the punch photo on his dating profile? that would be odd.
posted by compound eye at 12:15 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
If, when you look at a picture of that, you associate it with domestic violence, then that is a reading of a photograph that is important to you.
There is no 'right' answer here. There is your own internal reaction to the image. There is a reason why we have these internal reactions. They are often warnings for us. Other people will not necessarily have the same reactions because their life stories and internal reactions differ from yours.
To answer your question - if I barely knew this person and I saw that photo, I would certainly think the potential was there and that I could not trust the person. I would not continue contact with them.
If I knew them better but found them overall to have poor judgment on other things and I then came across the photo, I would certainly reconsider my relationship with them. I personally consider 'unsound judgment' to include things like participating in punching games, which I personally find stupid, particularly outside of the context of something like sparring, which seems more logical to me.
But, basically, there is no right answer here - how did it make you feel?
posted by mleigh at 12:27 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
There is no 'right' answer here. There is your own internal reaction to the image. There is a reason why we have these internal reactions. They are often warnings for us. Other people will not necessarily have the same reactions because their life stories and internal reactions differ from yours.
To answer your question - if I barely knew this person and I saw that photo, I would certainly think the potential was there and that I could not trust the person. I would not continue contact with them.
If I knew them better but found them overall to have poor judgment on other things and I then came across the photo, I would certainly reconsider my relationship with them. I personally consider 'unsound judgment' to include things like participating in punching games, which I personally find stupid, particularly outside of the context of something like sparring, which seems more logical to me.
But, basically, there is no right answer here - how did it make you feel?
posted by mleigh at 12:27 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've known several girls who instigate these kinds of games - especially after a few drinks. They tend to be from families with lots of brothers and/or sporty background, and are girls who like to be thought of as "one of the guys".
I don't think in any way would this indicate a capacity for domestic violence, although the guy might be more prone to play rough-housing like tickling and wrestling.
posted by caliban at 12:28 AM on June 6, 2012
I don't think in any way would this indicate a capacity for domestic violence, although the guy might be more prone to play rough-housing like tickling and wrestling.
posted by caliban at 12:28 AM on June 6, 2012
I ABSOLUTELY would not think the guy was abusive. But I do think it's really, really important to listen to your gut here. If there is anything I have learned in the approximately million years I've been dating, it's that if you have to talk yourself into dating someone -- or into getting over something -- stop right there, because it's not going to work out.
You don't have any investment in this dude -- you haven't even met him -- and you already are getting the creeps. He doesn't have to be an abusive person for him to be wrong for you. Something in you finds him creepy: move along. Lots of dudes that aren't creepy to be had.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 12:33 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
You don't have any investment in this dude -- you haven't even met him -- and you already are getting the creeps. He doesn't have to be an abusive person for him to be wrong for you. Something in you finds him creepy: move along. Lots of dudes that aren't creepy to be had.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 12:33 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
No game in the world, no prior agreement in the world can justify harming a much weaker, more vulnerable opponent like that.
I doubt she knew what she was getting into, but I bet he did-- and took full advantage of her.
There is a metric ton of assumption going on in this answer. Some people find these games fun. Even with the imbalance in strength, and knowing full well what they're getting into. Hell, some people get off on being bruised like that. It is eminently possible that this girl knew full well what she was getting into and thought it was funny/fun. I've had very physical relationships with girls before (especially in my late teens when I was still trying to figure out the proper way to display my affection to people) which were physical in similar ways. No one ever told me I'd overstepped any boundaries, and I've never even raised a hand in anger to someone I was dating.
That said, it seems to make you uncomfortable. There's no reason to feel the need to press on if this type of relationship dynamic makes you uncomfortable.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 12:34 AM on June 6, 2012 [4 favorites]
I doubt she knew what she was getting into, but I bet he did-- and took full advantage of her.
There is a metric ton of assumption going on in this answer. Some people find these games fun. Even with the imbalance in strength, and knowing full well what they're getting into. Hell, some people get off on being bruised like that. It is eminently possible that this girl knew full well what she was getting into and thought it was funny/fun. I've had very physical relationships with girls before (especially in my late teens when I was still trying to figure out the proper way to display my affection to people) which were physical in similar ways. No one ever told me I'd overstepped any boundaries, and I've never even raised a hand in anger to someone I was dating.
That said, it seems to make you uncomfortable. There's no reason to feel the need to press on if this type of relationship dynamic makes you uncomfortable.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 12:34 AM on June 6, 2012 [4 favorites]
If we assume this punching game took place and was consensual, and assume the woman bruises normally – would you have any concerns about the guy’s capacity for domestic violence based on that?
In this case the answer is definitely "no".
posted by Justinian at 1:15 AM on June 6, 2012
In this case the answer is definitely "no".
posted by Justinian at 1:15 AM on June 6, 2012
i'm a rough and tumble sort of gal (youngest with older brothers and growing up often the one female in a group of guys) who has more than a passing interest in bdsm. i would be more likely to date a guy with pictures like those. i never took pictures, but a punch for punch game played with a guy over the course of months left just incredible bruises on my leg. it was the most delightful flirting.
but, it's not for everyone. if playful shoves and punching games sound horrifying to you or uncomfortable, then keep looking.
posted by nadawi at 3:10 AM on June 6, 2012 [3 favorites]
but, it's not for everyone. if playful shoves and punching games sound horrifying to you or uncomfortable, then keep looking.
posted by nadawi at 3:10 AM on June 6, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'm a woman and I would not be worried that a guy might be domestically violent, based soley on the photo you describe.
I have played punching games with men, both boyfriends and platonic friends, and there was never any problem with it (or before or after). It was just dumb goofing around -- and if it had any underlying tension, it was sexual tension, not the percolations of anger or violence.
That said, I agree with the above posters who say that if this guy freaks you out, based on this photo, then you are absolutely in the right to not date him. Maybe your spider-sense is telling you something, or maybe he's a gentle person whose playful side would make you terribly uncomfortable.
Finally, I also agree with the above commenters who say that bruises really don't show up that fast, normally. So it might be that there was never a punching game at all. If you have any desire to keep talking with him, you might ask him "hey, I saw this picture of you and a girl 'post punching game' -- did you really bruise that fast, or was that a joke?"
posted by feets at 3:18 AM on June 6, 2012
I have played punching games with men, both boyfriends and platonic friends, and there was never any problem with it (or before or after). It was just dumb goofing around -- and if it had any underlying tension, it was sexual tension, not the percolations of anger or violence.
That said, I agree with the above posters who say that if this guy freaks you out, based on this photo, then you are absolutely in the right to not date him. Maybe your spider-sense is telling you something, or maybe he's a gentle person whose playful side would make you terribly uncomfortable.
Finally, I also agree with the above commenters who say that bruises really don't show up that fast, normally. So it might be that there was never a punching game at all. If you have any desire to keep talking with him, you might ask him "hey, I saw this picture of you and a girl 'post punching game' -- did you really bruise that fast, or was that a joke?"
posted by feets at 3:18 AM on June 6, 2012
I have a male friend I game similar to slug bug with, but we do it with haircuts. I also bruise easily. It's fun and kind of dumb. He is a swell guy and I trust him with my life, by the way. I never dated him but I know he's been a very kind husband and boyfriend to other women.
I am guessing this is innocent. I'd give him a pass for now but keep an eye out for other unsettling behaviors.
posted by Jess the Mess at 3:53 AM on June 6, 2012
I am guessing this is innocent. I'd give him a pass for now but keep an eye out for other unsettling behaviors.
posted by Jess the Mess at 3:53 AM on June 6, 2012
If we assume this punching game took place and was consensual, and assume the woman bruises normally – would you have any concerns about the guy’s capacity for domestic violence based on that?
Absolutely not.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:09 AM on June 6, 2012
Absolutely not.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:09 AM on June 6, 2012
I doubt she knew what she was getting into, but I bet he did-- and took full advantage of her.
This is ridiculous and completely eliminates the woman's capacity to understand what she's doing. If there is one thing drilled into women it is that there is a imbalance of power between them and men. Any woman entering the slug bug with a dude knows there's very likely to be a power imbalance, unless she's a trained fighter or much bigger than him. You don't enter the punching game if you're worried about bruises. I mean, it's a punching game.
Now, if they played slug bug and she started with a light punch and then he hauled off and slugged her with all his strength, then that would be shitty but she wouldn't be smiling about it.
So I really wouldn't be worried about this guy and domestic violence any more than I'd be worried the guys in Jackass are depressed and suicidal. It's nothing sinister, just your normal young adult capacity for dumb behavior.
posted by Anonymous at 4:19 AM on June 6, 2012
Nthing that, in some contexts, this kind of thing would not raise alarm bells. Sparring is one: I take a kickboxing class and, though it'll be a long time before I'm ready for full-on sparring, sometimes I come away with impressive bruises.
That said, even if the picture was taken at a gym, you still don't know that much about the context. Maybe he trains as a fighter, but he's a jerk fighter who doesn't ease up when sparring partners tell him to.
If you do choose to go on a date with him, be extra alert for any flags: if he has trouble taking no for an answer, if he speaks poorly of his exes, if he makes you uncomfortable in any way. You should pay attention to these anyway.
But you found the picture unsettling enough to be relieved when he didn't message you for a while. Based on that alone, I'd say it's wise to move on.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:45 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
That said, even if the picture was taken at a gym, you still don't know that much about the context. Maybe he trains as a fighter, but he's a jerk fighter who doesn't ease up when sparring partners tell him to.
If you do choose to go on a date with him, be extra alert for any flags: if he has trouble taking no for an answer, if he speaks poorly of his exes, if he makes you uncomfortable in any way. You should pay attention to these anyway.
But you found the picture unsettling enough to be relieved when he didn't message you for a while. Based on that alone, I'd say it's wise to move on.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:45 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I personally would not date someone who had the questionable judgment to put up a photo like that which was open for so much speculation. Even if it were completely innocent, just why open up that can of worms on a dating site?
posted by gaspode at 5:38 AM on June 6, 2012
posted by gaspode at 5:38 AM on June 6, 2012
I am here to say yes, it would bother me, far more than BDSM sex or sparring practice bruises would: and here's why.
A "punching game" designed to see which one gives up first, is something played by people that accept the use of physical power and capacity for giving and receiving pain as an arbiter of who is tougher or stronger.
Sparring practice is not that. Sparring practice is people working together, to try to get better, which sometimes involves bruising.
BDSM is closer, but still not that. BDSM is not people trying to use physical force to get someone else to submit to their power/authority. BDSM is people who have consented /before/ the use of physical force to someone else being in a position of authority, or in using stronger than normal sensation in order to elicit pleasure.
At best, the photo demonstrates that he's immature. At worst, yes, he shows a propensity for possibly engaging in other uses of physical power to demonstrate who is stronger.
I wouldn't date him. Listen to your gut.
posted by corb at 5:41 AM on June 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
A "punching game" designed to see which one gives up first, is something played by people that accept the use of physical power and capacity for giving and receiving pain as an arbiter of who is tougher or stronger.
Sparring practice is not that. Sparring practice is people working together, to try to get better, which sometimes involves bruising.
BDSM is closer, but still not that. BDSM is not people trying to use physical force to get someone else to submit to their power/authority. BDSM is people who have consented /before/ the use of physical force to someone else being in a position of authority, or in using stronger than normal sensation in order to elicit pleasure.
At best, the photo demonstrates that he's immature. At worst, yes, he shows a propensity for possibly engaging in other uses of physical power to demonstrate who is stronger.
I wouldn't date him. Listen to your gut.
posted by corb at 5:41 AM on June 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Personally, I would not think that someone who plays that kind of game has any more or less capacity for violence in a relationship than someone who doesn't. It wouldn't bother me or raise any red flags... but I was a tomboy as a kid and was 'one of the guys'.
But. BUT. If it makes you uncomfortable that he is willing to play a physical game with a woman, go with your gut.
posted by LittleMy at 5:43 AM on June 6, 2012
But. BUT. If it makes you uncomfortable that he is willing to play a physical game with a woman, go with your gut.
posted by LittleMy at 5:43 AM on June 6, 2012
I think what you want is someone who doesn't punch people for any reason, no matter how much the punchee likes it. I don't blame you. Based solely on that, you are 100% reasonable to decide that this is not the guy for you.
Is this evidence that he could be violent? Not as described, not by itself. I would, however, make a mental note of it and throw it in my little basket of yellow flags, or Things That Seem Innocent At The Time. When that basket gets too full, the flags turn red and I throw them out, along with the person who raised the flags. If, after some time, the basket contains few flags, and they can't be arranged to form a pattern, the flags either stay yellow or turn green.
Since you haven't met him yet, and don't have to, you could just not go through with meeting him, or else meet him and keep your eyes peeled.
posted by tel3path at 5:44 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is this evidence that he could be violent? Not as described, not by itself. I would, however, make a mental note of it and throw it in my little basket of yellow flags, or Things That Seem Innocent At The Time. When that basket gets too full, the flags turn red and I throw them out, along with the person who raised the flags. If, after some time, the basket contains few flags, and they can't be arranged to form a pattern, the flags either stay yellow or turn green.
Since you haven't met him yet, and don't have to, you could just not go through with meeting him, or else meet him and keep your eyes peeled.
posted by tel3path at 5:44 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would not assume DV capacity from the picture, but I would assume a very physical, loud, rough-housing, broad-gestures type of person. With a background that makes you "skittish" you may find being around someone comfortable with pushing other people's physical boundaries anxiety-inducing. I would pass on him in favor of looking for someone with a calm demeanor and the capacity for empathy and responsive to your non-verbal cues. Because the way someone physically presents themselves (imposing and sudden, broad gestures vs fine motor control, a non-shouty voice) may feel threatening to you, you should aim to meet people sooner rather than exchanging too many emails/chats to properly evaluate how comfortable you are with them and if they are willing to modify their own behavior based on your comfort level.
posted by saucysault at 6:02 AM on June 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 6:02 AM on June 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
On weekends, for fun, I BEAT PEOPLE WITH STICKS! Some of them are women. Some of them (men and women) bruise severely (I mean like whole upper leg is black and blue). I almost never bruise from this activity, or falling down stairs, colliding furniture in the dark or auto accidents (which probably means I'm going to throw a blood clot one day and die, but that's a different questions).
That said, I am not this guy and trying to glean any nuance from this one thing is a lot like looking for faces in clouds - it'll while away the hours but it won't tell you much.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:18 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
That said, I am not this guy and trying to glean any nuance from this one thing is a lot like looking for faces in clouds - it'll while away the hours but it won't tell you much.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:18 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would just conclude that the guy has friendships with girls of a type that's common for guys to have with guys. I also think "This says nothing about domestic violence but still, trust your gut!" is a bad answer. If the OP felt as sure as I do that this has no correlation with his capacity for domestic violence, it sems there'd have been no bad gut feeling to begin with.
posted by springload at 6:33 AM on June 6, 2012
posted by springload at 6:33 AM on June 6, 2012
I really don't think you can correlate this picture, knowing nothing about the situation, with his ability to be abusive. There are too many unknowns:
- The woman could bruise super easily
- She could have a high pain threshold, so wasn't in as much pain as it might have looked
- He could be hard to bruise and she was hitting him just as hard or harder
- She could have encouraged him to hit her harder because she enjoys bruising (or was taunting him)
I don't think it's fair to assume he was so much more powerful than her or that she's weak and a victim in the situation.
This would not affect my opinion of him, at least not until I talked to him about it. I say that as a woman who enjoys bruising and consensual hitting/punching.
But as someone that grew up with domestic abuse, it's understandable this triggers you. Ask him about it. Tell him about your history and why the photo made you uncomfortable. See if his responses change anything. And if it's a dealbreaker for you, it's a dealbreaker for you.
posted by radioaction at 6:44 AM on June 6, 2012
- The woman could bruise super easily
- She could have a high pain threshold, so wasn't in as much pain as it might have looked
- He could be hard to bruise and she was hitting him just as hard or harder
- She could have encouraged him to hit her harder because she enjoys bruising (or was taunting him)
I don't think it's fair to assume he was so much more powerful than her or that she's weak and a victim in the situation.
This would not affect my opinion of him, at least not until I talked to him about it. I say that as a woman who enjoys bruising and consensual hitting/punching.
But as someone that grew up with domestic abuse, it's understandable this triggers you. Ask him about it. Tell him about your history and why the photo made you uncomfortable. See if his responses change anything. And if it's a dealbreaker for you, it's a dealbreaker for you.
posted by radioaction at 6:44 AM on June 6, 2012
Is everything else about this guy so mind-blowing that there are no other men who don't put such photos up on the Internet who can compare? If not, I don't see why you should feel obliged to give him a chance. I wouldn't think the man was a domestic abuser because of the picture, but I would think that he'd be comfortable with a level of physical contact that might be unpleasant for someone from a background with domestic violence.
posted by winna at 7:24 AM on June 6, 2012
posted by winna at 7:24 AM on June 6, 2012
Some people bruise incredibly easy.
This.
I had a friend who got confronted by a (well-meaning) coworker of the girl he was in a relationship with. Out of the blue this guy comes up to my friend and says something like "Do we need to have a talk about how to treat women?" Since he had no idea what the hell the misunderstanding was the coworker mentioned some bruises on the female's arm as if she had been handled roughly. After some discussion and analysis of the data it became clear that she got them from carrying heavy boxes due to the way the edges rode against her biceps. Laughs were had and the coworker who expressed concern was patted on the back for having his heart in the right place.
So, while a bit odd, the dude could have been coming off a match with a less easily bruised partner and all of a sudden a similar swing elicits an ugly bruise. Maybe the gal is a good sport and, in an effort to be one of the guys or something, kept saying bring it and taunted him. Who knows.
Still your choice, but the fact that he has the balls to post the picture either indicates A) he's oblivious and callous towards a not great PC situation or B) he's completely secure in his reckoning of his behavior and has nothing to feel ashamed about. I guess both A and B could also be the case.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:10 AM on June 6, 2012
This.
I had a friend who got confronted by a (well-meaning) coworker of the girl he was in a relationship with. Out of the blue this guy comes up to my friend and says something like "Do we need to have a talk about how to treat women?" Since he had no idea what the hell the misunderstanding was the coworker mentioned some bruises on the female's arm as if she had been handled roughly. After some discussion and analysis of the data it became clear that she got them from carrying heavy boxes due to the way the edges rode against her biceps. Laughs were had and the coworker who expressed concern was patted on the back for having his heart in the right place.
So, while a bit odd, the dude could have been coming off a match with a less easily bruised partner and all of a sudden a similar swing elicits an ugly bruise. Maybe the gal is a good sport and, in an effort to be one of the guys or something, kept saying bring it and taunted him. Who knows.
Still your choice, but the fact that he has the balls to post the picture either indicates A) he's oblivious and callous towards a not great PC situation or B) he's completely secure in his reckoning of his behavior and has nothing to feel ashamed about. I guess both A and B could also be the case.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:10 AM on June 6, 2012
[Forgot to add, friend and female are now happily married, and she still bruises if she even looks at a hard object.]
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:11 AM on June 6, 2012
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:11 AM on June 6, 2012
No, I don't think you can use the photograph as a barometer of whether he will be abusive. Since you're after perspectives from people calibrated differently to you on this issue, here are some of my thoughts/experiences.
The outcome of the punch game is decided by endurance, not strength. Participants can be wildly mismatched in terms of physical strength and the weaker one can still win based on willpower/stubbornness. Often there is a considerable sense of achievement in beating a stronger opponent at a physical game. (Which is why I found jamjam's response insulting.)
Many years ago, I was in a production of Romeo and Juliet where we had real problems with Act 3, Scene 5 because the dude playing Capulet freaked out every time he had to hit Juliet. Now this was a choreographed stage slap, absolutely nothing that was going to hurt her, but the idea of hitting girls - even for fakesies - was so abhorrent to him that rehearsing it was making him feel sick.
At some point his parents had sat him down and told him "You don't hit girls. Not for any reason. Not ever" and failed to add "Except when Juliet is saying "Just belt me one already, so we can break for lunch. Jeez!" I respect what his parents were trying to do, but they left consent out of the equation and consent matters
Plenty of men are raised that way, which is why I've been grateful for all the guys over the years who've been prepared to move beyond that simplistic view and to arm-wrestle or go paintballing or practice karate with me. I don't think it's a sign of immaturity or a might-makes-right attitude. It's a sign that they trust me to know and express how much I'm comfortable with. Likewise it's a sign that I trust them to respect me and my limits. So the game becomes a physical expression of trust and friendship, mutually felt and understood.
But you can choose not to date him without it reflecting badly on either of you. His pursuits squick you, so the two of you are a bad match.
Random datapoint that I'd never noticed before now - every single one of those guys grew up with an older sister and I grew up with a younger brother. Now I'm wondering to what extent that shaped our attitudes.
posted by the latin mouse at 8:16 AM on June 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
The outcome of the punch game is decided by endurance, not strength. Participants can be wildly mismatched in terms of physical strength and the weaker one can still win based on willpower/stubbornness. Often there is a considerable sense of achievement in beating a stronger opponent at a physical game. (Which is why I found jamjam's response insulting.)
Many years ago, I was in a production of Romeo and Juliet where we had real problems with Act 3, Scene 5 because the dude playing Capulet freaked out every time he had to hit Juliet. Now this was a choreographed stage slap, absolutely nothing that was going to hurt her, but the idea of hitting girls - even for fakesies - was so abhorrent to him that rehearsing it was making him feel sick.
At some point his parents had sat him down and told him "You don't hit girls. Not for any reason. Not ever" and failed to add "Except when Juliet is saying "Just belt me one already, so we can break for lunch. Jeez!" I respect what his parents were trying to do, but they left consent out of the equation and consent matters
Plenty of men are raised that way, which is why I've been grateful for all the guys over the years who've been prepared to move beyond that simplistic view and to arm-wrestle or go paintballing or practice karate with me. I don't think it's a sign of immaturity or a might-makes-right attitude. It's a sign that they trust me to know and express how much I'm comfortable with. Likewise it's a sign that I trust them to respect me and my limits. So the game becomes a physical expression of trust and friendship, mutually felt and understood.
But you can choose not to date him without it reflecting badly on either of you. His pursuits squick you, so the two of you are a bad match.
Random datapoint that I'd never noticed before now - every single one of those guys grew up with an older sister and I grew up with a younger brother. Now I'm wondering to what extent that shaped our attitudes.
posted by the latin mouse at 8:16 AM on June 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
Friendly punching game is in no way an indicator of whether someone will be abusive. Although I can understand many who say to trust your own instincts, I'd say the opposite. Give him a chance if you think he's a cool and nice guy whenever you interact with him personally, even if it's just online. I think we often let our imagination run wild, have a preconceived image of someone based on gossips or rumors, or in this case, online research. I think it's a shame to judge someone before really getting to know that person personally, especially over something quite trivial as a punching game. You don't know the situation, you don't even know if it really took place. So I say stay open, and try to get to know him first before jumping to conclusions. However, it's always good to be cautious, and your reaction especially given your background is understandable. But being cautious AND being open, can take you to great places.
posted by snufkin5 at 9:01 AM on June 6, 2012
posted by snufkin5 at 9:01 AM on June 6, 2012
No, that wouldn't have pinged my radar as any kind of warning sign at ALL, but you're perfectly entitled to not go out with someone who does make you feel squicky in the least, whether it's a misunderstanding or not. It might be a silly-seeming thing, but there are jillions of men in the world - you don't want to dread hearing from him.
posted by Occula at 9:15 AM on June 6, 2012
posted by Occula at 9:15 AM on June 6, 2012
You've got a giant red flag going up in your mind BEFORE you started dating him. Go with it.
It doesn't matter if this was completely consensual, it's something that bothers you, end of story.
posted by Neekee at 9:28 AM on June 6, 2012
It doesn't matter if this was completely consensual, it's something that bothers you, end of story.
posted by Neekee at 9:28 AM on June 6, 2012
Does this seem like a good indicator of future physical abuse to me....NO
Does this seem silly and immature to do, and then flaunt on the internet....YES
posted by couchdive at 10:24 AM on June 6, 2012
Does this seem silly and immature to do, and then flaunt on the internet....YES
posted by couchdive at 10:24 AM on June 6, 2012
Growing up, like you, in a house with some domestic violence, I would find that photo to be off-putting and would probably move on. It might not be "fair", but it's a measure to protect ourselves. And that's kinda huge, since I couldn't protect myself as a kid.
posted by sugarbomb at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by sugarbomb at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's a game that is popular in certain subcultures. If you aren't familiar with the subculture, and you aren't a rough and tumble sort yourself, I can see why you would instinctively think that it's too much. Your instincts are not bad or wrong. This is just something that is new to you. I suggest you check out sports and martial arts dojos where women and men routinely hit and kick each other; it might help you understand on a deeper level that consenting adult women are not being abused when they participate in violent games.
I don't and wouldn't in any way think it was indicative of a propensity towards solving problems with violence. The only reason this would be a red flag would be if she asked him to stop and he didn't. I would maybe be wary if she were significantly younger or in a subordinate position to him. In other words, is there any chance that she was coerced into it? Then yes, red flag. Otherwise, no.
For what it's worth, I play a form of hockey and am nearly always sporting a large ugly bruise. They're no big deal...though one of my female teammates who is similarly, ah, decorated, was pulled aside in a dressing room once and given the number of a DV shelter. It's a funny story, but it's definitely given me food for thought about how women who participate in violent games are frequently perceived as victims rather than victors. To me, bruises are a badge of honor--they show that I got in the line of fire and helped protect my team. Out in the real world, people assume that I got the bruises because I made a mistake or someone hurt me.
posted by rhythm and booze at 10:29 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't and wouldn't in any way think it was indicative of a propensity towards solving problems with violence. The only reason this would be a red flag would be if she asked him to stop and he didn't. I would maybe be wary if she were significantly younger or in a subordinate position to him. In other words, is there any chance that she was coerced into it? Then yes, red flag. Otherwise, no.
For what it's worth, I play a form of hockey and am nearly always sporting a large ugly bruise. They're no big deal...though one of my female teammates who is similarly, ah, decorated, was pulled aside in a dressing room once and given the number of a DV shelter. It's a funny story, but it's definitely given me food for thought about how women who participate in violent games are frequently perceived as victims rather than victors. To me, bruises are a badge of honor--they show that I got in the line of fire and helped protect my team. Out in the real world, people assume that I got the bruises because I made a mistake or someone hurt me.
posted by rhythm and booze at 10:29 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
No game in the world, no prior agreement in the world can justify harming a much weaker, more vulnerable opponent like that.
I doubt she knew what she was getting into, but I bet he did-- and took full advantage of her.
Woah woah woah. We're supposed to assume that she was "vulnerable" and didn't "know what she was getting into" and was taken "advantage" of? Maybe I missed the detail where his opponent was a 7 year old?
Anyway, as a datapoint, would not make assumptions about the guy's capacity for domestic violence (or his interest in bdsm, actually) from that picture. But if you felt relieved when he stopped writing you, maybe that's a sign that you should let this guy go.
posted by geegollygosh at 10:46 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I doubt she knew what she was getting into, but I bet he did-- and took full advantage of her.
Woah woah woah. We're supposed to assume that she was "vulnerable" and didn't "know what she was getting into" and was taken "advantage" of? Maybe I missed the detail where his opponent was a 7 year old?
Anyway, as a datapoint, would not make assumptions about the guy's capacity for domestic violence (or his interest in bdsm, actually) from that picture. But if you felt relieved when he stopped writing you, maybe that's a sign that you should let this guy go.
posted by geegollygosh at 10:46 AM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
If we assume this punching game took place and was consensual, and assume the woman bruises normally – would you have any concerns about the guy’s capacity for domestic violence based on that?
No I wouldn't. I am also a person who was raised in an abusive household and I aggressively avoid men who "squick" me out (generally whenever a guy tried to control my behavior I made a beeline for the door). With that background, this photo wouldn't cause me to worry in and of itself.
This does not mean I think you need to go on a date with him.
posted by Julnyes at 11:34 AM on June 6, 2012
No I wouldn't. I am also a person who was raised in an abusive household and I aggressively avoid men who "squick" me out (generally whenever a guy tried to control my behavior I made a beeline for the door). With that background, this photo wouldn't cause me to worry in and of itself.
This does not mean I think you need to go on a date with him.
posted by Julnyes at 11:34 AM on June 6, 2012
Maybe it's more than just the game that's bothering you: your gut feeling could also be based on reacting to subtle cues we aren't in a position to pick up on. Something about his facial expression, his body language in the pictures, the tone he's taking when he writes to you, whatever. Doesn't matter. You were relieved when he quit writing to you, so that really ought to be enough to trust yourself and find someone more compatible.
Don't worry about "giving him a chance"-- you deserve to put yourself first!
posted by doreur at 11:35 AM on June 6, 2012 [3 favorites]
Don't worry about "giving him a chance"-- you deserve to put yourself first!
posted by doreur at 11:35 AM on June 6, 2012 [3 favorites]
I got the chills when I saw that. I was creeped out at the idea that he had that in him to punch a woman that hard to injure her arm like that, even as part of a game.
This bit I've quoted makes me think that you think non-abusive men are non-abusive because they have an emotional aversion to the idea of hitting women. You see that this man was willing to hit this woman in some particular context, you conclude that he doesn't have that aversion, and so you think there's nothing to prevent him from beating on any woman in any context.
I'm no expert, but I think that theory of why non-abusive men are non-abusive is inadequate.
So, my outside perspective is that you're overreacting (though, on preview, doreur makes a good point that you might be subconsciously responding to other cues that we don't know about).
But overreaction or no, I agree with all the answers suggesting caution.
On re-reading your follow-up: If you're concerned your instincts might be wrong, and you maybe want to adjust them, well, I think that spirit of self-monitoring and -correction is commendable, but it seems like dating this guy would be kind of a giant leap from where you are now, and maybe you can find some smaller baby steps to do first.
Disclosure: I am male, and when I was a teenager, I once played a punch-for-punch game with my then-girlfriend, who was about a foot shorter than me and about 80 or 90 pounds lighter. Fun was had by all. (We didn't document the incident with photos, but that wasn't so customary then.) Contrary to corb, neither of us considered the game as a determiner of our relative status in any respect, any more than we would have so considered a card game. Contrary to your chills, I was not then and am not now an abusive boyfriend. I mention all this because, when I first read this question last night, I took your apparent inferences personally and got a bit angry; it's possible that that emotional response is influencing my answer, and you should perhaps take that into account. So, yeah, disclosure.
posted by stebulus at 12:02 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
This bit I've quoted makes me think that you think non-abusive men are non-abusive because they have an emotional aversion to the idea of hitting women. You see that this man was willing to hit this woman in some particular context, you conclude that he doesn't have that aversion, and so you think there's nothing to prevent him from beating on any woman in any context.
I'm no expert, but I think that theory of why non-abusive men are non-abusive is inadequate.
So, my outside perspective is that you're overreacting (though, on preview, doreur makes a good point that you might be subconsciously responding to other cues that we don't know about).
But overreaction or no, I agree with all the answers suggesting caution.
On re-reading your follow-up: If you're concerned your instincts might be wrong, and you maybe want to adjust them, well, I think that spirit of self-monitoring and -correction is commendable, but it seems like dating this guy would be kind of a giant leap from where you are now, and maybe you can find some smaller baby steps to do first.
Disclosure: I am male, and when I was a teenager, I once played a punch-for-punch game with my then-girlfriend, who was about a foot shorter than me and about 80 or 90 pounds lighter. Fun was had by all. (We didn't document the incident with photos, but that wasn't so customary then.) Contrary to corb, neither of us considered the game as a determiner of our relative status in any respect, any more than we would have so considered a card game. Contrary to your chills, I was not then and am not now an abusive boyfriend. I mention all this because, when I first read this question last night, I took your apparent inferences personally and got a bit angry; it's possible that that emotional response is influencing my answer, and you should perhaps take that into account. So, yeah, disclosure.
posted by stebulus at 12:02 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
But overreaction or no, I agree with all the answers suggesting caution.
Forgot to mention my own special reason for recommending caution: because now that you're questioning your instincts, it'd be natural to fall into hypercorrection.
posted by stebulus at 12:13 PM on June 6, 2012
Forgot to mention my own special reason for recommending caution: because now that you're questioning your instincts, it'd be natural to fall into hypercorrection.
posted by stebulus at 12:13 PM on June 6, 2012
If we assume this punching game took place and was consensual, and assume the woman bruises normally – would you have any concerns about the guy’s capacity for domestic violence based on that?
Not concerns about his capacity for DV, per se; personally, I would move on, but I carry baggage that make me wary of punching at all (like you do, which is the main point here). I don't like play fighting because it reminds me of real fighting. So, it's not I would be concerned that this guy would be physically abusive but maybe, like me, you don't like the sensation of the fighting/violent situation, simulated, jokey, or otherwise.
posted by Pax at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2012
Not concerns about his capacity for DV, per se; personally, I would move on, but I carry baggage that make me wary of punching at all (like you do, which is the main point here). I don't like play fighting because it reminds me of real fighting. So, it's not I would be concerned that this guy would be physically abusive but maybe, like me, you don't like the sensation of the fighting/violent situation, simulated, jokey, or otherwise.
posted by Pax at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2012
Are you on an island where he's the only dating option you have?
Because that's the only scenario I can think of where you might want to take the risk of dating this guy.
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:12 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Because that's the only scenario I can think of where you might want to take the risk of dating this guy.
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:12 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I box, but I don't punch my husband.
On the other hand, I wouldn't post a photo of me and an opponent decorated in bruises on social media, because WHO DOES THAT after age 14 or so?
I know lots of people who do mixed-gender martial arts, LARP and SCA fighting, you name it, but I've never seen anyone bragging about how bruised they and their opposite-gender fighting partner got on a social media network.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:27 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, I wouldn't post a photo of me and an opponent decorated in bruises on social media, because WHO DOES THAT after age 14 or so?
I know lots of people who do mixed-gender martial arts, LARP and SCA fighting, you name it, but I've never seen anyone bragging about how bruised they and their opposite-gender fighting partner got on a social media network.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:27 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Personally, I would think, "Oh Christ, what an idiotic game," and find him sort of unappealing for that reason, but I don't think domestic violence would be a concern at all.
posted by naoko at 10:49 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by naoko at 10:49 AM on June 7, 2012
We sometimes play "the punching game" in my roller derby league. Both guys and girls participate. It's a friendly game, nothing malicious intended, and everything is purely consensual. I have given and taken punches on the arm from guys and girls alike and earned an array of bruises from both. Nobody involved in an asshole or abusive in any way. If it squicks you out, OK, then maybe he's not for you. But I wouldn't assume anything about his nature from that. Some of the nicest guys I know have left some pretty awesome bruises on my arm.
posted by Fuego at 10:47 AM on June 8, 2012
posted by Fuego at 10:47 AM on June 8, 2012
I have no history of DV. I would find this off-putting and decide I didn't want to date this person. I have no idea whether someone who posts a picture like this on social media is statistically more likely to be an abuser, and I doubt anyone else here does either, and in any case, I wouldn't care. Were I dating, I'd throw people who gave me a creepy feeling overboard. I wouldn't care what everyone else would do in the same circumstance.
It's the fact that you do care -- so much so that you disclaim all the responses that refer to the importance of your instincts! -- that feels, to me, like a danger sign. You don't trust yourself and what you feel. You think that you can be wronging him by exercising your judgment about him, even though you're not sending a letter to his employer or anything, you're just deciding whether to date him. You want to make sure you're giving him a chance even though a further insight into his personality has made you uncomfortable. You think your feelings can be wrong.
Why do you think you're oversensitive to signs of abusive tendencies? For what it's worth, it's usually the opposite: people who grew up with DV and attendant behaviors (jealousy, control) find that stuff less off-putting and horrifying than those who grew up in harmonious homes. I'd like to note the possibility that there are things about him that you find charming, but if I looked through his profile and responses to you, I'd be put off. Maybe some part of you senses some similarities to whatever man in the house was victimizing you and your mom and sister, and has placed all that onto this photo, when really it should be placed not only on the photo, but on his words.
posted by palliser at 5:55 PM on June 9, 2012
It's the fact that you do care -- so much so that you disclaim all the responses that refer to the importance of your instincts! -- that feels, to me, like a danger sign. You don't trust yourself and what you feel. You think that you can be wronging him by exercising your judgment about him, even though you're not sending a letter to his employer or anything, you're just deciding whether to date him. You want to make sure you're giving him a chance even though a further insight into his personality has made you uncomfortable. You think your feelings can be wrong.
Why do you think you're oversensitive to signs of abusive tendencies? For what it's worth, it's usually the opposite: people who grew up with DV and attendant behaviors (jealousy, control) find that stuff less off-putting and horrifying than those who grew up in harmonious homes. I'd like to note the possibility that there are things about him that you find charming, but if I looked through his profile and responses to you, I'd be put off. Maybe some part of you senses some similarities to whatever man in the house was victimizing you and your mom and sister, and has placed all that onto this photo, when really it should be placed not only on the photo, but on his words.
posted by palliser at 5:55 PM on June 9, 2012
« Older How do I know if breastfeeding is right for us? | Ginger Beer Explosion. Glass shards. Help? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by spunweb at 8:16 PM on June 5, 2012 [27 favorites]