Do Family Members Have ANY Moral or Other Obligation to Help Send Family Members to College?
May 23, 2012 7:33 AM Subscribe
What's a realistic expectation for family financial support for my kid going to college as it specifically applies to cosigning loans along with me?
Single parent with 2 kids in college in the fall. No financial support from their dad and their dad has no financial obligation for college. It's all on me.
After going through what my kids' schools offered for aid, it turns out my freshman daughter will need me (or any adult) to endorse a Direct Plus loan for around 40k. I applied and was denied (Fafsa has opened an investigative case to determine why because my credit record is 100% clean).
But in the meantime, my kid's college suggested she get another endorser.
Her dad is out of the question, so I asked my mom (who contributed $0 to my college...not even cosigning loans) as well as my sister if they'd be willing to endorse. I explained the situation, that as far as I can determine my kid can't go to #1 choice college if she doesn't get this loan, etc.
Both my mother and my sister flat out refused to help. My sister because some day she might want to buy a condo (she's been renting for about 22 years now, has no savings, but...) and she won't want this on her credit report, my mom because one day she may need to buy a car and is similarly concerned.
It is fair to say that my sister has not been auntlike for over 20 years to my three kids; doesn't hang out with us (or them), doesn't ask how they are...stuff like that, despite living down the street. Times when I've been really sick, she says she can't help us.
I'm working with the college to figure this out, so my question is more about family support and am I wrong to be disappointed with both my mom and my sister about their outright refusal to help my kid go to college?
Single parent with 2 kids in college in the fall. No financial support from their dad and their dad has no financial obligation for college. It's all on me.
After going through what my kids' schools offered for aid, it turns out my freshman daughter will need me (or any adult) to endorse a Direct Plus loan for around 40k. I applied and was denied (Fafsa has opened an investigative case to determine why because my credit record is 100% clean).
But in the meantime, my kid's college suggested she get another endorser.
Her dad is out of the question, so I asked my mom (who contributed $0 to my college...not even cosigning loans) as well as my sister if they'd be willing to endorse. I explained the situation, that as far as I can determine my kid can't go to #1 choice college if she doesn't get this loan, etc.
Both my mother and my sister flat out refused to help. My sister because some day she might want to buy a condo (she's been renting for about 22 years now, has no savings, but...) and she won't want this on her credit report, my mom because one day she may need to buy a car and is similarly concerned.
It is fair to say that my sister has not been auntlike for over 20 years to my three kids; doesn't hang out with us (or them), doesn't ask how they are...stuff like that, despite living down the street. Times when I've been really sick, she says she can't help us.
I'm working with the college to figure this out, so my question is more about family support and am I wrong to be disappointed with both my mom and my sister about their outright refusal to help my kid go to college?
I understand your disappointment that your sister/mother aren't willing to help, but that seems normal to me, based on my own experience.
When I went to university, my parents and I paid for 100% of the costs - I didn't receive any help from my aunt/grandmother, nor would I have asked/expected any.
Having said that, I'm not close with my aunt and my grandmother was not well-off. I think it really depends on the family's dynamic. Overall I'd say help from extended relatives would be a nice bonus - but shouldn't be counted on.
posted by cranberrymonger at 7:44 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
When I went to university, my parents and I paid for 100% of the costs - I didn't receive any help from my aunt/grandmother, nor would I have asked/expected any.
Having said that, I'm not close with my aunt and my grandmother was not well-off. I think it really depends on the family's dynamic. Overall I'd say help from extended relatives would be a nice bonus - but shouldn't be counted on.
posted by cranberrymonger at 7:44 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You're not at all wrong to feel disappointed -- your feelings are your feelings.
But different people have different levels of comfort with financial risk and obligation. Endorsing this loan is outside the comfort zone for both your sister and your aunt, and there's not too much you can do about it.
That being said, it sounds like there's a long history of you not getting the support you need in other ways from them. Being a single mom (with no help from dad) is crazy hard. It sounds like you've done amazing well at it so far. If your family can't step up for you emotionally, I hope you have some other forms of support.
I know this not your question, but I would seriously re-think a 40k loan for one year of college. There is nothing wrong with going to a 2nd or even 5th-choice school (I did -- and survived just fine). Maybe an independent financial advisor could help here. The college is of course most interested in you spending the cash there -- I wouldn't take their advice without a second independent opinion.
posted by pantarei70 at 7:44 AM on May 23, 2012 [18 favorites]
But different people have different levels of comfort with financial risk and obligation. Endorsing this loan is outside the comfort zone for both your sister and your aunt, and there's not too much you can do about it.
That being said, it sounds like there's a long history of you not getting the support you need in other ways from them. Being a single mom (with no help from dad) is crazy hard. It sounds like you've done amazing well at it so far. If your family can't step up for you emotionally, I hope you have some other forms of support.
I know this not your question, but I would seriously re-think a 40k loan for one year of college. There is nothing wrong with going to a 2nd or even 5th-choice school (I did -- and survived just fine). Maybe an independent financial advisor could help here. The college is of course most interested in you spending the cash there -- I wouldn't take their advice without a second independent opinion.
posted by pantarei70 at 7:44 AM on May 23, 2012 [18 favorites]
If I were your mother or your sister, I would not co-sign your child's loans. It is too large of a risk, and the cost is too great. To be quite blunt, $40k for one year of school is too much. You should be reconsidering what school your child goes to.
posted by saeculorum at 7:46 AM on May 23, 2012 [19 favorites]
posted by saeculorum at 7:46 AM on May 23, 2012 [19 favorites]
Yeah, co-signing is the real deal; a consigner will be liable for the debt if your kids can't repay.
I certainly understand your disappointment, but there is no way I would ever, in a million years, co-sign someone else's loan unless I was fully committed to paying that money out of pocket on their behalf.
Ditto with everyone above saying $40K is too much to pay for a year of college, especially in this economy. That, too is a disappointment, but it is unfortunately true.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:49 AM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
I certainly understand your disappointment, but there is no way I would ever, in a million years, co-sign someone else's loan unless I was fully committed to paying that money out of pocket on their behalf.
Ditto with everyone above saying $40K is too much to pay for a year of college, especially in this economy. That, too is a disappointment, but it is unfortunately true.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:49 AM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
I personally don't think they're being unreasonable. $40K is a hell of a lot of money, and if your daughter defaults, they'd be on the hook for it.
Is it possible that you're actually upset about the other things, and this is just something to hang it on? The other stuff sounds like pretty reasonable stuff to be upset about.
And on the college front: What were the other offers like? Is the $40K per year? If your daughter is borrowing $160K she will be borrowing more for a four year degree than many people borrow for a professional/graduate degree -- and will have much lower earning potential. It's possible your sister and your mom also know that. Quite apart from the potential for default, they may not want to help your daughter go that deeply in debt.
On a personal level, I have some family members who graduated with loans in the $70-80K range, and it's impacted their lives in some very serious ways. I would really, really think before taking on that type of debt.
posted by pie ninja at 7:52 AM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
Is it possible that you're actually upset about the other things, and this is just something to hang it on? The other stuff sounds like pretty reasonable stuff to be upset about.
And on the college front: What were the other offers like? Is the $40K per year? If your daughter is borrowing $160K she will be borrowing more for a four year degree than many people borrow for a professional/graduate degree -- and will have much lower earning potential. It's possible your sister and your mom also know that. Quite apart from the potential for default, they may not want to help your daughter go that deeply in debt.
On a personal level, I have some family members who graduated with loans in the $70-80K range, and it's impacted their lives in some very serious ways. I would really, really think before taking on that type of debt.
posted by pie ninja at 7:52 AM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
Keep in mind that a Direct PLUS loan is a loan that parents take out. The student doesn't own the debt, the parent does. So this isn't a cosigner issue...they are asking someone to own this debt outright.
Here is a page about Direct PLUS loans. Has she been given a financial aid award letter? What other loans does it list on there? Usually student loans are taken out by the student to cover expenses that aren't covered by scholarships or grants, then a Direct PLUS loan is a third option. I would do some more investigating.
And yes...in this situation I would not take out the loan for my sister's kids primarily because this particular loan would be in my name. If my nephews want to choose an expensive college I expect them (and their parents) to figure out how to cover as much as possible. A few thousand might not be out of the question, but $40,000 would be (for me).
posted by MultiFaceted at 7:56 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Here is a page about Direct PLUS loans. Has she been given a financial aid award letter? What other loans does it list on there? Usually student loans are taken out by the student to cover expenses that aren't covered by scholarships or grants, then a Direct PLUS loan is a third option. I would do some more investigating.
And yes...in this situation I would not take out the loan for my sister's kids primarily because this particular loan would be in my name. If my nephews want to choose an expensive college I expect them (and their parents) to figure out how to cover as much as possible. A few thousand might not be out of the question, but $40,000 would be (for me).
posted by MultiFaceted at 7:56 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would not take out the loan, even as a really involved aunt. What I will do is provide free housing and food if my niece/nephews want to go to a school that's local, offer moral support if they want to defer and work for a year or two, and help brainstorm other solutions. But I have my own kids and financial house to keep in order and co-signing a loan (therefore owning the loan) is not a 10-year dynamic I am prepared to get into with family. Every family is different but that's my data point.
posted by Zen_warrior at 8:00 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Zen_warrior at 8:00 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
"It is fair to say that my sister has not been auntlike for over 20 years to my three kids; doesn't hang out with us (or them), doesn't ask how they are...stuff like that, despite living down the street. Times when I've been really sick, she says she can't help us."
In view of this, it is completely reasonable of your sister to refuse to co-sign this humongous loan. She doesn't feel close to your family, and that's that. Plus, as you say, she has no savings!
Time for Plan B from your daughter. Is there a work-study college near you? What are her accrued savings like from summer jobs?
posted by BostonTerrier at 8:07 AM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
In view of this, it is completely reasonable of your sister to refuse to co-sign this humongous loan. She doesn't feel close to your family, and that's that. Plus, as you say, she has no savings!
Time for Plan B from your daughter. Is there a work-study college near you? What are her accrued savings like from summer jobs?
posted by BostonTerrier at 8:07 AM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
This is not a "moral" situation, especially if you are not close with these particular family members, and especially if it would put a financial burden on them (which it sounds as if it would, in the case of default). In fact, I would go so far as to say that you should feel morally obligated NOT to put such a potential burden on someone who couldnt carry it, especially a member of your family. Your kid's college education is truly really your responsibility unless you are in some sort of family situation where everyone pitches in to send Smart Kid of the Family to med school so they can make money to send back to the entire family in the old country. My grandmother's family did this. I'm guessing this isn't that sort of situation here.
Furthermore, nobody, not even you as the parent, is "morally" or otherwise obligated to make sure your kid goes to their #1 choice college. Want, not need, and all that sort of thing.
posted by takoukla at 8:12 AM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Furthermore, nobody, not even you as the parent, is "morally" or otherwise obligated to make sure your kid goes to their #1 choice college. Want, not need, and all that sort of thing.
posted by takoukla at 8:12 AM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
My *dad* refused to sign as a cosignor for a school loan a long time ago--and I get why and hold zero grudges toward him. It's a huge amount of money, and if I did default for whatever reason, he would be on the hook: there goes retirement, there goes his stellar credit. He loves me and he's helped me out in a million different ways, but I understand that he didn't want to take that step. I haven't defaulted, but I have been in some precarious financial situations. It feels bad enough to be broke and feel like you can't pay your loans, but at least it's MY problem to solve. If it was also my dad's problem and something that affected his life negatively, I would be a wreck.
So, no, I actually don't think family members have a moral obligation to send kids to college (especially really expensive colleges), and I understand why your mom and sister said no. I would also say no if my sister asked. I love my sister tons and I love her kid just as much--but no one can promise me that her kid won't default on that loan one day--no matter how awesome of a person I think he is. But I would do all the stuff Zen_warrior mentions.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 8:28 AM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
So, no, I actually don't think family members have a moral obligation to send kids to college (especially really expensive colleges), and I understand why your mom and sister said no. I would also say no if my sister asked. I love my sister tons and I love her kid just as much--but no one can promise me that her kid won't default on that loan one day--no matter how awesome of a person I think he is. But I would do all the stuff Zen_warrior mentions.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 8:28 AM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Family members (aside from parents, possibly) have no moral obligation to take out a $40,000 loan for another family member to go to college.
Also, $40,000 is a LOT of money. Have you and your daughter been paying attention to all of the press about kids graduating from college with student loan debt that they cannot afford to pay off? It's time for your kid to look at more affordable schools.
posted by joan_holloway at 8:28 AM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Also, $40,000 is a LOT of money. Have you and your daughter been paying attention to all of the press about kids graduating from college with student loan debt that they cannot afford to pay off? It's time for your kid to look at more affordable schools.
posted by joan_holloway at 8:28 AM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I would not take out a 40K loan for one year of college - not for my niece, not for my own child, not for myself. It sounds like you really want to send her to this particular school, but maybe it's just not possible, financially.
posted by mskyle at 8:30 AM on May 23, 2012
posted by mskyle at 8:30 AM on May 23, 2012
Apologies in advance for not really answering your specific question. Just an anecdote and a recommendation. My parents helped me through college inasmuch as they allowed me to live at home and eat their food for the first two years. All else plus tuition and books were on me. After I transferred to a university, they sent me a couple hundred dollars each semester to offset books. The rest was me working plus small grants and bigger loans. It was challenging but character building. Perhaps they could have helped more, but they did not. So I had choices to make.
As it seems do you and your daughter. Are your expectations adjustable? Is it out of the question to consider a local community college for the first two years and transfer all that GE to the favorite school?
You know, I hope, that a transfer student who attends Harvard for two years has the exact same piece of paper as the one who attends for four. 40k for a freshman year is ridiculous, unless money is not a concern.
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 8:34 AM on May 23, 2012
As it seems do you and your daughter. Are your expectations adjustable? Is it out of the question to consider a local community college for the first two years and transfer all that GE to the favorite school?
You know, I hope, that a transfer student who attends Harvard for two years has the exact same piece of paper as the one who attends for four. 40k for a freshman year is ridiculous, unless money is not a concern.
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 8:34 AM on May 23, 2012
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses.
I suppose I'm more disappointed in their complete lack of interest in supporting the kids in any way over the years than I am about the money.
I can see where they wouldn't want to take on the loan.
posted by kinetic at 8:37 AM on May 23, 2012
I suppose I'm more disappointed in their complete lack of interest in supporting the kids in any way over the years than I am about the money.
I can see where they wouldn't want to take on the loan.
posted by kinetic at 8:37 AM on May 23, 2012
As others have said, it's just too much money to expect someone to take out, especially since (as far as they know) you'll be back every year asking for them to owe another 40K.
Unless the school is Harvard or Yale, I agree with the others who are saying the school probably isn't worth the expense. Heading to a cheaper school really won't impact her earning potential or her ability to get into grad school meaningfully; not only could she transfer, but there are big advantages to being a superstar in a department, rather than just another smart kid...
Coming out of school with 160K in student loans -- which with interest will be much more than that -- will significantly impact her ability to live happily in her 20s, 30s, and maybe 40s. Think it over.
posted by gerryblog at 8:40 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Unless the school is Harvard or Yale, I agree with the others who are saying the school probably isn't worth the expense. Heading to a cheaper school really won't impact her earning potential or her ability to get into grad school meaningfully; not only could she transfer, but there are big advantages to being a superstar in a department, rather than just another smart kid...
Coming out of school with 160K in student loans -- which with interest will be much more than that -- will significantly impact her ability to live happily in her 20s, 30s, and maybe 40s. Think it over.
posted by gerryblog at 8:40 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Not your question, but 40k seems like a LOT of money. Does she have other options? State schools? Community college?
Having sat on a U financial aid committee, I can't imagine under what circumstances a family would need to do a $40k plus loan unless the U was super expensive. Stafford, Pell, etc. Are already used up and still need 40k?
posted by k8t at 8:44 AM on May 23, 2012
Having sat on a U financial aid committee, I can't imagine under what circumstances a family would need to do a $40k plus loan unless the U was super expensive. Stafford, Pell, etc. Are already used up and still need 40k?
posted by k8t at 8:44 AM on May 23, 2012
Response by poster: ...but now I AM starting question whether borrowing this type of money is insane.
posted by kinetic at 8:48 AM on May 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by kinetic at 8:48 AM on May 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
Like the other posters, I emphasize with your situation, but don't think that your relatives are obligated to take on that debt. I know that kid probably has her heart set on starting at that college this year, but there really are other options:
-- Kid could do community college or a cheaper 4-year for a year or two, get her requirements out of the way and then transfer. If she does well, it's honestly very likely that she'd even get a better offer when applying to transfer to either this school or a better one (schools generally look upon such situations favorably because she'd have proven her worth with college-level tasks). I personally know multiple Ivy-leaguers that chose this path, these days especially it is a well-respected path for keeping debt down.
-- Alternately, there are a lot of excellent options for a gap year: kid could join Americorps (and earn $ for college), work abroad as an au pair , or perhaps grab a fun adventure job on a ranch or a national park.
posted by susanvance at 8:48 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
-- Kid could do community college or a cheaper 4-year for a year or two, get her requirements out of the way and then transfer. If she does well, it's honestly very likely that she'd even get a better offer when applying to transfer to either this school or a better one (schools generally look upon such situations favorably because she'd have proven her worth with college-level tasks). I personally know multiple Ivy-leaguers that chose this path, these days especially it is a well-respected path for keeping debt down.
-- Alternately, there are a lot of excellent options for a gap year: kid could join Americorps (and earn $ for college), work abroad as an au pair , or perhaps grab a fun adventure job on a ranch or a national park.
posted by susanvance at 8:48 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
STOP!
You should not co-sign a student loan for your child. Clearly you don't have the credit worthiness to do so, that means you don't have the financial stability to pay the damn thing off if your child doesn't.
Student loans can't be forgiven in bankruptcy. If your child dies, you still have to pay. You are too close to retirement at this point to consider taking on this debt load.
Go to Suze Orman's website to see what she says about this topic, it should scare the bejesus out of you.
Look around, this high investment in higher education is NOT a guarantee of future earnings, and it's certainly an awful lot of pressure to put on a teenager.
Let's consider a very affordable Community College for the first two years. The basic classes one takes are probably BETTER at a CC, because the class sizes are smaller. No, your child won't get to live in a dorm, binge drink, or whatever it is the kids are doing at universities all over the country. Neither of you can afford it.
Be reasonable. A $40k annual expense is stupid. You don't get what you pay for in a university education. Certainly not as a Freshman or Sophomore.
Have your kids go to Community College, take AP courses whatever it takes to reduce the cost. THIS is a gift you can give them. When it comes time to transfer, they can go to a reasonable state school, and perhaps win scholarships or other financial help along the way.
Yes, they'll be disappointed and resentful, but they won't have crushing debt that will cripple them for decades after they graduate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
You should not co-sign a student loan for your child. Clearly you don't have the credit worthiness to do so, that means you don't have the financial stability to pay the damn thing off if your child doesn't.
Student loans can't be forgiven in bankruptcy. If your child dies, you still have to pay. You are too close to retirement at this point to consider taking on this debt load.
Go to Suze Orman's website to see what she says about this topic, it should scare the bejesus out of you.
Look around, this high investment in higher education is NOT a guarantee of future earnings, and it's certainly an awful lot of pressure to put on a teenager.
Let's consider a very affordable Community College for the first two years. The basic classes one takes are probably BETTER at a CC, because the class sizes are smaller. No, your child won't get to live in a dorm, binge drink, or whatever it is the kids are doing at universities all over the country. Neither of you can afford it.
Be reasonable. A $40k annual expense is stupid. You don't get what you pay for in a university education. Certainly not as a Freshman or Sophomore.
Have your kids go to Community College, take AP courses whatever it takes to reduce the cost. THIS is a gift you can give them. When it comes time to transfer, they can go to a reasonable state school, and perhaps win scholarships or other financial help along the way.
Yes, they'll be disappointed and resentful, but they won't have crushing debt that will cripple them for decades after they graduate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
My advice: look over transfer requirements now for this #1 school- Up to how many credits will they accept? Some won't accept more than 2 years worth and you still have to do certain things on their campus, like foreign language. What classes might transfer toward a degree there, and which won't (you might not get any solid answers on this, but you can generally get a ballpark idea by matching up the course catalogs)? Your daughter can set up her schedule now to maximize the number of credits that will transfer and to avoid repeating classes (I took Spanish at my first school and had to repeat it all at my second because I didn't remember enough of it to test out).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:54 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:54 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yes, they'll be disappointed and resentful
For a while, maybe. I'm 32, and one of the things I'm most grateful to my dad about now was laying down the law on student debt when I was too immature and naive to know better. After a BA, MFA, and PhD -- 12 years in school! -- I have $0 in student loans because when I wanted to go to an overpriced "elite" university for undergrad he said "No way" and made me take the cheaper, better option.
posted by gerryblog at 8:56 AM on May 23, 2012 [7 favorites]
For a while, maybe. I'm 32, and one of the things I'm most grateful to my dad about now was laying down the law on student debt when I was too immature and naive to know better. After a BA, MFA, and PhD -- 12 years in school! -- I have $0 in student loans because when I wanted to go to an overpriced "elite" university for undergrad he said "No way" and made me take the cheaper, better option.
posted by gerryblog at 8:56 AM on May 23, 2012 [7 favorites]
Also -- YES $160K is an insane amount of debt for undergrad, even an Ivy. If she simply started at a community college for two years she'd halve that easily and get the same degree in the end. Keep in mind that having that kind of debt hanging over you seriously restricts what kind of life she can lead. Truly, neither of you want to go into this without your eyes wide open.
The NY Times has an entire section devoted to the difficulties of student loans these days, especially this recent article.
posted by susanvance at 8:56 AM on May 23, 2012
The NY Times has an entire section devoted to the difficulties of student loans these days, especially this recent article.
posted by susanvance at 8:56 AM on May 23, 2012
To be quite honest, I don't understand how you ended up in a situation with $40K of estimated loan needs with a daughter admitted to an Ivy League university. Most (all?) Ivy League universities have policies limiting total cost to people with annual incomes less than $60k-$100k to well under $40k (try $0 - $5k). The "list price" of Ivy League universities is essentially paid only by extremely wealthy parents who have no problem paying it. Everyone else pays a significantly reduced cost with assistance from the university.
Yes, borrowing $40k for an undergraduate education is insane. Full stop. The repayment costs on a $160k loan will be between $1500-$1900 (depending on how Congress handles interest rates) due essentially immediately after graduation. You are taking a gamble that your daughter will find a job immediately after college, and that job will pay significantly more than the average wage for a new graduate, and that your daughter will never lose her job or incur significant short term costs in 10 years after graduation. That is not a good bet.
Look, if your daughter is smart enough to be admitted to an Ivy League university, she's going to do well in life regardless of whether she ends up at an Ivy League university. If you still live in Massachusetts as your previous questions indicate, you have in-state tuition at awesome schools - try starting with UMass - Amherst or UMass - Boston. Alternatively, even out-of-state tuition at other public institutions will end up less than $40k/year.
posted by saeculorum at 8:58 AM on May 23, 2012 [12 favorites]
Yes, borrowing $40k for an undergraduate education is insane. Full stop. The repayment costs on a $160k loan will be between $1500-$1900 (depending on how Congress handles interest rates) due essentially immediately after graduation. You are taking a gamble that your daughter will find a job immediately after college, and that job will pay significantly more than the average wage for a new graduate, and that your daughter will never lose her job or incur significant short term costs in 10 years after graduation. That is not a good bet.
Look, if your daughter is smart enough to be admitted to an Ivy League university, she's going to do well in life regardless of whether she ends up at an Ivy League university. If you still live in Massachusetts as your previous questions indicate, you have in-state tuition at awesome schools - try starting with UMass - Amherst or UMass - Boston. Alternatively, even out-of-state tuition at other public institutions will end up less than $40k/year.
posted by saeculorum at 8:58 AM on May 23, 2012 [12 favorites]
If she got into an Ivy, I would hope that she would be able to get a substantial merit scholarship at another, only slightly-less-prestigious school. So, it's not like "Brown" or "Greendale Community College" are the only options here.
Though actually I'm surprised an Ivy would be expecting you to take out such a large loan - usually they are very well-funded in terms of financial aid - it tends to be those slightly-to-significantly-less-prestigious schools that end up costing the most. Talk to the financial aid counselors. See what your other options are.
posted by mskyle at 8:59 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Though actually I'm surprised an Ivy would be expecting you to take out such a large loan - usually they are very well-funded in terms of financial aid - it tends to be those slightly-to-significantly-less-prestigious schools that end up costing the most. Talk to the financial aid counselors. See what your other options are.
posted by mskyle at 8:59 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Everyone always suggests a couple years of community college and transferring as an alternative. Sure, it makes financial sense, but there is just no comparison. At 18, staying home and going to a community college would have wrecked me. So much of my high school experience was aimed at getting into a good college -- not that community college makes one a failure, by any means, but after all that deliberate academic and extracurricular effort I would have felt like one. This is a kid who's been admitted to an Ivy. There are plenty of other fantastic universities that will allow her to leave home and have the college experience right away, at a much, much lower cost. Because seriously, $160k in undergrad debt is bananas.
On preview, what mskyle and saeculorum said.
posted by changeling at 9:06 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
On preview, what mskyle and saeculorum said.
posted by changeling at 9:06 AM on May 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Changeling - I think it really depends on where you live and the caliber of the community college. Plus, the nice thing about them is that you don't have to have applied last fall to start a few classes now, so it is a reasonable way to fill a gap year. Admission for fall 2012 would only be open to those who applied in January, and this kid may not have applied to the best alternatives.
It is an excellent point though, and here's a list of schools (nearly all with very prestigious reputations) that offer need-blind admission.
posted by susanvance at 9:16 AM on May 23, 2012
It is an excellent point though, and here's a list of schools (nearly all with very prestigious reputations) that offer need-blind admission.
posted by susanvance at 9:16 AM on May 23, 2012
Response by poster: Again, thanks for the advice. I appreciate the responses that addressed my question specifically about if my familial-bond expectations were way off, which I think they were.
Also to everyone else....I understand that 40k is a lot of money, etc. I also know about community colleges, work programs and all of those things. That's why I wasn't asking those questions. I was asking about a family dynamic, not, "Is it crazy to borrow 40k for college?"
So please...no more well-intended advice about whether or not I want her to get this money. Please.
posted by kinetic at 9:43 AM on May 23, 2012
Also to everyone else....I understand that 40k is a lot of money, etc. I also know about community colleges, work programs and all of those things. That's why I wasn't asking those questions. I was asking about a family dynamic, not, "Is it crazy to borrow 40k for college?"
So please...no more well-intended advice about whether or not I want her to get this money. Please.
posted by kinetic at 9:43 AM on May 23, 2012
Mod note: Seriously folks, the very weird divergence into the merits of loans generally is off-topic and not okay. You can MeMail the poster, don't do that here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:05 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:05 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Have you talked to the head of financial aid at the university? Maybe you make too much to qualify, but they can sometimes overlook details that make a huge impact on the resulting amount of aid. I'd try to get a few more answers before jumping to the loan situation, if you haven't already.
posted by barnone at 10:25 AM on May 23, 2012
posted by barnone at 10:25 AM on May 23, 2012
echoing what others have said, but i can understand why it would be so disappointing for you (and your daughter). getting into an ivy is a huge accomplishment and not being able to go would be an even greater disappointment. that said, yes, it is a lot to expect your family members to co-sign a $40K loan for four years, even if they were the most supportive, loving family members.
The "list price" of Ivy League universities is essentially paid only by extremely wealthy parents who have no problem paying it. Everyone else pays a significantly reduced cost with assistance from the university.
where are you getting this information? i went to an ivy (back in the day when it cost half as much). my parents were squarely middle class but made enough to disqualify us from assistance aside from government student loans, which only paid a tiny fraction of the cost of my tuition. we did not get some "significantly reduced cost" despite being far from "extremely wealthy." we paid the "list price" of the the tuition, less student loans.
posted by violetk at 10:33 AM on May 23, 2012
The "list price" of Ivy League universities is essentially paid only by extremely wealthy parents who have no problem paying it. Everyone else pays a significantly reduced cost with assistance from the university.
where are you getting this information? i went to an ivy (back in the day when it cost half as much). my parents were squarely middle class but made enough to disqualify us from assistance aside from government student loans, which only paid a tiny fraction of the cost of my tuition. we did not get some "significantly reduced cost" despite being far from "extremely wealthy." we paid the "list price" of the the tuition, less student loans.
posted by violetk at 10:33 AM on May 23, 2012
I am the adult child of a single mom who also feels that her family wasn't supportive to her or involved enough in my life. (It's hard to judge accurately, but she's probably not wrong.)
I will say this: Whatever is/was...it is/was. It's water under the bridge. But my mom's continued anger about this, and complaining (in front of and to me) is very frustrating to hear. It's negativity I don't personally want in my life and it's annoying to have to push hard to get her to stop talking about anger that she's experiencing [supposedly] "on my behalf" for these things that are in the past.
So--feel however you will about your siblings and mom, but please don't make a big deal about it in front of your daughter.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
I will say this: Whatever is/was...it is/was. It's water under the bridge. But my mom's continued anger about this, and complaining (in front of and to me) is very frustrating to hear. It's negativity I don't personally want in my life and it's annoying to have to push hard to get her to stop talking about anger that she's experiencing [supposedly] "on my behalf" for these things that are in the past.
So--feel however you will about your siblings and mom, but please don't make a big deal about it in front of your daughter.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
Feelings don't have to be right or wrong--and I think being disappointed that aunt and grandma didn't offer more help over the years is justified. But I also think they're justified not to want to cosign a loan, since if your daughter defaults for any reason at all the cost is on them legally. That's a pretty big burden to ask them to bear.
With my family's financial situation and interpersonal dynamic, my parents are not paying for my higher education at all (I waited until I was considered an independent to begin college so I wouldn't have to report any of their income). I have relatives that are pretty well-off, they don't contribute at all, and to be honest I'd be pretty mortified if my parents asked them about it.
posted by asciident at 11:15 AM on May 23, 2012
With my family's financial situation and interpersonal dynamic, my parents are not paying for my higher education at all (I waited until I was considered an independent to begin college so I wouldn't have to report any of their income). I have relatives that are pretty well-off, they don't contribute at all, and to be honest I'd be pretty mortified if my parents asked them about it.
posted by asciident at 11:15 AM on May 23, 2012
actually I'm surprised an Ivy would be expecting you to take out such a large loan - usually they are very well-funded in terms of financial aid
Me too. Does the calculation of the expected family contribution (i.e., from you) make sense to you? If not, you might want to ask them how they arrived at such a number. A single parent being expected to take out a loan for 80% of the costs seems odd to me.
If you have not actually talked to somebody in the financial aid office about your specific case, I would do so. They may be able to take a closer look at your individual case and find ways to adjust the numbers in your favor.
And some anecdata for you: I would not have expected anyone other than my parents to pay for college.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 11:39 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Me too. Does the calculation of the expected family contribution (i.e., from you) make sense to you? If not, you might want to ask them how they arrived at such a number. A single parent being expected to take out a loan for 80% of the costs seems odd to me.
If you have not actually talked to somebody in the financial aid office about your specific case, I would do so. They may be able to take a closer look at your individual case and find ways to adjust the numbers in your favor.
And some anecdata for you: I would not have expected anyone other than my parents to pay for college.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 11:39 AM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
You might also need to do some expectation management with your mom and sister. Out of context, a request for a co-signor on a tuition loan implies that this isn't a one-time thing. By signing up for the $40K, you're actually asking them (or they might well be inferring that you are asking them) to do this again 3 more times. And $160K in unsecured, undischargeable debt is a staggering amount of money. You're asking them to believe as an article of faith that your daughter is going to be able to make loan payments of almost $2,000 a month for ten years, starting immediately after graduation. Because if she doesn't, they'll have to.
posted by Mayor West at 11:40 AM on May 23, 2012
posted by Mayor West at 11:40 AM on May 23, 2012
Oh, to answer your question, no, your family members do not need to go into debt for your daughter, and frankly, neither should you. You should not expect people to volunteer to "give" you or your daughter such a huge gift. Even if they never have to pay back a dime, it is in their best interest NOT to do this. That you seem to think that because they are your family, that they OWE this to you and your daughter is disturbing. Even if they were very wealthy and the amount was a bagatel to them it's not their responsibility. As you stated, neither one is in a financial position to help, and it's kind of weird that you would know this and ask anyway.
I think a good lesson for your daughter would be in living within her means. If your daughter can get the $40K loan on her own, good for her. It's her decision to make if that's what she wants to do. But what's the plan if the financing isn't available?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:38 PM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think a good lesson for your daughter would be in living within her means. If your daughter can get the $40K loan on her own, good for her. It's her decision to make if that's what she wants to do. But what's the plan if the financing isn't available?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:38 PM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
I get the resentment. My aunt's family was well off, and over the years she refused to help my single mom. Once my mom asked if we could have her old refrigerator and she said "no" and donated it to some charity so she could write it off on her taxes instead.
However, I think the best thing you can do for your kids and the lack of involvement from your family is to not put your kids in a position where they feel like they're obligated to be nice to people who really don't treat them all that kindly. Loan cosigning will tangle your daughter up with them in this really long-term way. needs more cowbell is right that hanging on to this resentment isn't good for anybody, including your daughter. Best to teach her how to be independent and self-sufficient and to just liberate herself from toxic situations, rather than dwelling on them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:21 PM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
However, I think the best thing you can do for your kids and the lack of involvement from your family is to not put your kids in a position where they feel like they're obligated to be nice to people who really don't treat them all that kindly. Loan cosigning will tangle your daughter up with them in this really long-term way. needs more cowbell is right that hanging on to this resentment isn't good for anybody, including your daughter. Best to teach her how to be independent and self-sufficient and to just liberate herself from toxic situations, rather than dwelling on them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:21 PM on May 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
I suppose I'm more disappointed in their complete lack of interest in supporting the kids in any way over the years than I am about the money.
I think this is completely unreasonable.
Having children was your (+ the father's) reproductive choice.
You'd probably have been pretty pissed if before you got pregnant, your mom and sister intervened to tell you when to have kids, or to hold off until after they had their children, or to have five instead of one, or started slipping birth control in your coffee until they felt you were "ready" for the responsibility of procreation.
Having and supporting your child was your reproductive choice, not theirs. Though things might be a little different in a life-or-death situation, I don't see how the financial responsibility for your child's education is in any way their concern, frankly.
(The same may not apply to the father, but I dunno what's going on there, so...that's for you to work through.)
posted by vivid postcard at 1:42 PM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
I think this is completely unreasonable.
Having children was your (+ the father's) reproductive choice.
You'd probably have been pretty pissed if before you got pregnant, your mom and sister intervened to tell you when to have kids, or to hold off until after they had their children, or to have five instead of one, or started slipping birth control in your coffee until they felt you were "ready" for the responsibility of procreation.
Having and supporting your child was your reproductive choice, not theirs. Though things might be a little different in a life-or-death situation, I don't see how the financial responsibility for your child's education is in any way their concern, frankly.
(The same may not apply to the father, but I dunno what's going on there, so...that's for you to work through.)
posted by vivid postcard at 1:42 PM on May 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
Also consider that if she did co-sign and your kid defaulted and stuck your no-savings-having sister with the payments, that could seriously destroy your relationship with your sister. A lot of people avoid getting into major financial agreements with close friends and family for just this reason.
At the aunt/uncle level I think it's reasonable to ask for the kind of favors you might ask of a good friend: connections for job interviews, the occasional small loan, proofreading college admissions essays, petsitting, staying at their house when you're in their city, that kind of thing. Cosigning a $40,000 loan is something that even a parent might not be willing to do and I wouldn't blame them.
As an aunt myself I've got to agree with vivid postcard. Your sister didn't choose to have your kids and doesn't have any obligation to enjoy spending time with them or support them financially. While it's obviously understandable that you wish she were acting differently, you'll be happier if you focus your thoughts on the friends and family you have who do spend time with and support your kids rather than on having resentment that your sister isn't interested in that role.
posted by phoenixy at 5:16 PM on May 23, 2012
At the aunt/uncle level I think it's reasonable to ask for the kind of favors you might ask of a good friend: connections for job interviews, the occasional small loan, proofreading college admissions essays, petsitting, staying at their house when you're in their city, that kind of thing. Cosigning a $40,000 loan is something that even a parent might not be willing to do and I wouldn't blame them.
As an aunt myself I've got to agree with vivid postcard. Your sister didn't choose to have your kids and doesn't have any obligation to enjoy spending time with them or support them financially. While it's obviously understandable that you wish she were acting differently, you'll be happier if you focus your thoughts on the friends and family you have who do spend time with and support your kids rather than on having resentment that your sister isn't interested in that role.
posted by phoenixy at 5:16 PM on May 23, 2012
I think you're being unreasonable. When I went back to college in my mid-twenties, I would not let any family members consider cosigning my loans, and arranged my finances and choice of school so that I didn't need them to. It simply seemed like too much of a risk to expose my parents to that kind of liability to as they entered retirement, and, because I chose a cheap-ish state school, I only (ha!) borrowed $40,000 over my entire college education.
posted by pullayup at 6:58 PM on May 23, 2012
posted by pullayup at 6:58 PM on May 23, 2012
Best answer: It was not at all expected in my family that anyone other than a child's parents support that child. It would have been very, very odd for my parents, or any other parents in the family to expect the older generations to chip in for college or anything else. I know in some families grandparents help out with things, but in mine, grandparents, aunts, and uncles buy birthday presents, the occasional cute outfit, and that's it.
Despite the above, my husband and I are about to give an enormous loan to my sister-in-law to start up her new business. We're not thrilled about parting with our money, but we want her to be able to support herself and her son (she's a widowed mother). However, the consequences for us not helping her are dire for both her and our nephew, so maybe that's where your mom and aunt are coming from. To them, they don't understand (or value) the difference between the $40K school and other options your daughter might have.
Good luck, however things work out. I certainly understand your disappointment. I'm sure you wish you had the money to just write a check and support your kid yourself. It really hurts not to be able to give your kid what you know she deserves.
posted by tk at 7:57 PM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Despite the above, my husband and I are about to give an enormous loan to my sister-in-law to start up her new business. We're not thrilled about parting with our money, but we want her to be able to support herself and her son (she's a widowed mother). However, the consequences for us not helping her are dire for both her and our nephew, so maybe that's where your mom and aunt are coming from. To them, they don't understand (or value) the difference between the $40K school and other options your daughter might have.
Good luck, however things work out. I certainly understand your disappointment. I'm sure you wish you had the money to just write a check and support your kid yourself. It really hurts not to be able to give your kid what you know she deserves.
posted by tk at 7:57 PM on May 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It is fair to say that my sister has not been auntlike for over 20 years to my three kids; doesn't hang out with us (or them), doesn't ask how they are...stuff like that, despite living down the street.
In your shoes, I would be really disappointed about this. I would in no way be disappointed or offended that this huge financial commitment was not forthcoming from someone with no savings. But the other, the fact that you are not close, while it is very common, is a very sad situation to me. I think a lot of us have families where love and money are all wrapped up together. So this feels like a rejection on an emotional level when in fact it's not a sensible thing for them to do and they are right to refuse. But for them to take no interest in your kids, well, that's hurtful.
I hope you're not forgetting to celebrate your kid's accomplishment in getting into such good schools. There was an article somewhere recently comparing Penn State and U Penn, and talking about, I think, the common phenomenon of getting into both but going to Penn State because U Penn is too expensive. If you're smart enough to get into an ivy, you're smart enough to make the most of Big State U.
posted by BibiRose at 11:59 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
In your shoes, I would be really disappointed about this. I would in no way be disappointed or offended that this huge financial commitment was not forthcoming from someone with no savings. But the other, the fact that you are not close, while it is very common, is a very sad situation to me. I think a lot of us have families where love and money are all wrapped up together. So this feels like a rejection on an emotional level when in fact it's not a sensible thing for them to do and they are right to refuse. But for them to take no interest in your kids, well, that's hurtful.
I hope you're not forgetting to celebrate your kid's accomplishment in getting into such good schools. There was an article somewhere recently comparing Penn State and U Penn, and talking about, I think, the common phenomenon of getting into both but going to Penn State because U Penn is too expensive. If you're smart enough to get into an ivy, you're smart enough to make the most of Big State U.
posted by BibiRose at 11:59 AM on May 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just wanted to update: I had a long talk with both mom and sister and told them no hard feelings, I completely understand that they wouldn't want to take on such a financial burden. My mom was very kind about the situation; unfortunately, my sister started giving me grief about I shouldn't have had kids if I couldn't afford to raise them (she knew perfectly well that when their then-married-dad and I had kids, their dad had a trust fund). So she has issues with me that I don't understand, but I appreciate the insight given here that I didn't previously have.
Further update, I spoke with her college and it appears that a clerical error was made in her financial aid calculation; a $22,500 scholarship had been inadvertently withdrawn from her package; it has been reinstated and she does now qualify for a much lower loan.
So off to college she will go.
posted by kinetic at 3:11 PM on May 24, 2012 [11 favorites]
Further update, I spoke with her college and it appears that a clerical error was made in her financial aid calculation; a $22,500 scholarship had been inadvertently withdrawn from her package; it has been reinstated and she does now qualify for a much lower loan.
So off to college she will go.
posted by kinetic at 3:11 PM on May 24, 2012 [11 favorites]
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