Challenge a speeding ticket?
July 21, 2005 6:29 PM Subscribe
Is it worth challenging a speeding ticket in court?
My details: Mass. Highway patrol ticket for doing 82 in a 65, clocked not radar, during rain.
I was not going 82 (<70) and am confused as to how I was clocked at this.
I have a clean driving record for the last few years.
I've paid tickets in the past but I truly feel I don't deserve it this time.
General advice for those outside Mass. is welcome too.
My details: Mass. Highway patrol ticket for doing 82 in a 65, clocked not radar, during rain.
I was not going 82 (<70) and am confused as to how I was clocked at this.
I have a clean driving record for the last few years.
I've paid tickets in the past but I truly feel I don't deserve it this time.
General advice for those outside Mass. is welcome too.
I have contested a speeding ticket in the past (in Georgia), and had it reduced to no-points and a lesser fine. Also had a weird parking ticket (in New York) reduced as well. My $.02 - if you think you were not doing what the officer clocked you at, fight it. Otherwise, suck it up.
I think this was asked before, but my connection speed has slowed to slug rate, so I'm not looking it up.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 7:11 PM on July 21, 2005
I think this was asked before, but my connection speed has slowed to slug rate, so I'm not looking it up.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 7:11 PM on July 21, 2005
My husband contested a ticket and had it reduced to a non-moving violation. Still had to pay a fine, but no points on the license and therefore no insurance rate hike. This would have been his 2nd ticket within a year though - I don't know for certain, but I don't think your insurance would be affected with just one ticket. It did take the better part of the day to settle things, so unless you've got some spare vacation days hanging around, might be best to just suck it up.
posted by ferociouskitty at 7:16 PM on July 21, 2005
posted by ferociouskitty at 7:16 PM on July 21, 2005
Why not call the court clerk? They can give you some insight on the particular judge or venue. I did this and was told to send a letter to the judge so he'd have my info ahead of time and to show up. I did both and got a reduction on the cost and the points. Bonus was checking out everyone else in the room - not all of them were there for speeding tickets.
posted by lorrer at 7:24 PM on July 21, 2005
posted by lorrer at 7:24 PM on July 21, 2005
A few points. I don't know specifically about Mass. law, but generally, speeding is a strict liability offence, so if you were going 66 MPH+, you're speeding. It may or may not be the same fine, but you're speeding nonetheless. Disputing the ticket and then simply requesting a fine reduction is usually an option in most locations (if the officer shows up - depends on location and how busy the cops are). No officer, usually no evidence to establish speed, therefore ticket dismissed. Officer shows up, you agree you were speeding, but not that much, and officer or court might reduce fine, or allow you to plead as registered owner as opposed to as driver (if Mass. law has that option), which means generally no points on licence. Best to look online for info - there should be plenty, and remember, with all this info YMMV (pun most definitely intended).
posted by birdsquared at 8:05 PM on July 21, 2005
posted by birdsquared at 8:05 PM on July 21, 2005
It's better to regret something you did than something you didn't do (I've heard this many times without knowing the source).
Speed Trap Exchange - Why contest it
nolo.com - Deciding whether to challenge...
Good Luck. (IANAL)
posted by badger_flammable at 8:07 PM on July 21, 2005
Speed Trap Exchange - Why contest it
nolo.com - Deciding whether to challenge...
Good Luck. (IANAL)
posted by badger_flammable at 8:07 PM on July 21, 2005
Massachusetts driver here. I have had two tickets (one from the Mass Pike ... another from Somerville, MA). Each time I was "clocked," not "radar-ed." I was in no way going above the speed limit. I challenged each incident ... and "won" the cases.
I think it's worth the challenge. Go in with as much information (i.e. time of day, weather conditions, road configuration, fellow-traveller statement(s) etc.).
BTW - if the ticketing officer doesn't appear for the hearing, the judge will likely waive the case.
posted by ericb at 8:32 PM on July 21, 2005
I think it's worth the challenge. Go in with as much information (i.e. time of day, weather conditions, road configuration, fellow-traveller statement(s) etc.).
BTW - if the ticketing officer doesn't appear for the hearing, the judge will likely waive the case.
posted by ericb at 8:32 PM on July 21, 2005
Also think about this...if don't contest the ticket, not only will you be paying the fine but also paying for it on your insurance for the next 6 or 7 years.
I've heard of people telling the judge or magistrate that they simply cannot afford to have the points on the insurance and have to pay the surcharge for the next X years.
And don't send the judge or anyone any letters. If you show to the hearing and they don't have your file, the case gets dismissed.
posted by eatcake at 9:37 PM on July 21, 2005
I've heard of people telling the judge or magistrate that they simply cannot afford to have the points on the insurance and have to pay the surcharge for the next X years.
And don't send the judge or anyone any letters. If you show to the hearing and they don't have your file, the case gets dismissed.
posted by eatcake at 9:37 PM on July 21, 2005
I've heard people say if you are going to challenge it, make note of all the details/conditions surrounding it. Then, try to delay the court date as long as possible. It's been said the longer you delay it, it's less likely for the officer to show up or remember the details of what happened. I'm just saying . . .
posted by 6:1 at 9:42 PM on July 21, 2005
posted by 6:1 at 9:42 PM on July 21, 2005
I'd also say go ahead and challenge it. If the officer does show up, it may be worth asking about the last time the patrol car's speedometer was calibrated (or, better yet, request documentation of the calibration). Odds are that the officer will not know this information off hand and the court is unlikely to grant leave to obtain such documentation. Overall, the more prepared you are when you show up (armed with both facts, arguments, and knowledge of the law), the better.
FYI, MA does not appear to have an absolute speed limit state - on the contrary, you are merely presumed to be driving unreasonably if over the posted speed limit. Check out the transportation code for yourself. "If a speed limit has been duly established upon any way, in accordance with the provisions of said section, operation of a motor vehicle at a rate of speed in excess of such limit shall be prima facie evidence that such speed is greater than is reasonable and proper."
Good luck.
posted by roundrock at 10:10 PM on July 21, 2005
FYI, MA does not appear to have an absolute speed limit state - on the contrary, you are merely presumed to be driving unreasonably if over the posted speed limit. Check out the transportation code for yourself. "If a speed limit has been duly established upon any way, in accordance with the provisions of said section, operation of a motor vehicle at a rate of speed in excess of such limit shall be prima facie evidence that such speed is greater than is reasonable and proper."
Good luck.
posted by roundrock at 10:10 PM on July 21, 2005
Were you going over the posted limit? Then you were speeding.
Challenge on the basis that the cop got the amount you were speeding wrong, but as posted above: if you were going over, suck it up.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:12 PM on July 21, 2005
Challenge on the basis that the cop got the amount you were speeding wrong, but as posted above: if you were going over, suck it up.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:12 PM on July 21, 2005
It's better to regret something you did than something you didn't do (I've heard this many times without knowing the source).
With apologies for the derail*, I thnk you're talking about one of my very favorite poems, Portrait of the Artist as a Prematurely Old Man by Ogden Nash.
*(I know, I shouldn't have done this, and I regret it....)
posted by mono blanco at 3:47 AM on July 22, 2005
With apologies for the derail*, I thnk you're talking about one of my very favorite poems, Portrait of the Artist as a Prematurely Old Man by Ogden Nash.
*(I know, I shouldn't have done this, and I regret it....)
posted by mono blanco at 3:47 AM on July 22, 2005
I once was pulled over for running a stop sign (I had actually stopped to let another car go by). When I explained that to the officer he said, with a very smug look, "your word against mine, see you in court".
I hired an attorney and got it dismissed. The funny thing is that the "court fees" were equal to the ticket amount. But at least my insurance didn't go up and I didn't have to acutally go to the court hearing.
This happened in florida, btw.
posted by superkim at 5:46 AM on July 22, 2005
I hired an attorney and got it dismissed. The funny thing is that the "court fees" were equal to the ticket amount. But at least my insurance didn't go up and I didn't have to acutally go to the court hearing.
This happened in florida, btw.
posted by superkim at 5:46 AM on July 22, 2005
The options in Minneapolis/Hennepin County, Minnesota. Even though Hennepin County has a very accessible program, what happens to you can vary from one small suburb to the next. A lot really comes down to your jurisdiction.
posted by gimonca at 6:10 AM on July 22, 2005
posted by gimonca at 6:10 AM on July 22, 2005
When I contested a ticket in Michigan, it worked like this: A given officer was getting all of his tickets heard on the same day. So the old "maybe the officer won't show up" didn't apply. Not sure what MA does.
Also, someone said, Odds are that the officer will not know this information off hand and the court is unlikely to grant leave to obtain such documentation. Not necessarily true. When I was in court that day, a woman said something like, "I really can't believe I was going that fast" and pleaded Not Guilty. The judge swore her and the officer in, and asked her several questions about why she felt the way she did. She had nothing concrete to go on. He then asked the officer when he was last trained on radar, what the weather conditions were, when the gun was last calibrated, what the reading was, etc., and the officer answered the questions very quickly. Bottom line is you can't assume the cop won't show or won't be prepared.
That being said, here is what I would advise:
1. Do as much prep work as possible. Bring all the information, including diagrams of where you were, where the cop was, etc. You don't have to use it, but it's nice to have if you need it.
2. Go early (or even on a different day) before your hearing so you can see how this sort of thing works. The cop and judge do this all the time; you don't. See which tactics work and which don't. In my case, there was a plea called "Guilty, with Explanation" where people whined about mitigating circumstances or trying to keep their record clean. In 100% of those cases, the ticket was dismissed but the amount of the fine paid as court fees- municipal court gets their money, and you don't get the points on your insurance- everyone's happy. The only person who came out of court with points was the lady who pleaded Not Guilty.
Good luck.
posted by Doohickie at 7:44 AM on July 22, 2005
Also, someone said, Odds are that the officer will not know this information off hand and the court is unlikely to grant leave to obtain such documentation. Not necessarily true. When I was in court that day, a woman said something like, "I really can't believe I was going that fast" and pleaded Not Guilty. The judge swore her and the officer in, and asked her several questions about why she felt the way she did. She had nothing concrete to go on. He then asked the officer when he was last trained on radar, what the weather conditions were, when the gun was last calibrated, what the reading was, etc., and the officer answered the questions very quickly. Bottom line is you can't assume the cop won't show or won't be prepared.
That being said, here is what I would advise:
1. Do as much prep work as possible. Bring all the information, including diagrams of where you were, where the cop was, etc. You don't have to use it, but it's nice to have if you need it.
2. Go early (or even on a different day) before your hearing so you can see how this sort of thing works. The cop and judge do this all the time; you don't. See which tactics work and which don't. In my case, there was a plea called "Guilty, with Explanation" where people whined about mitigating circumstances or trying to keep their record clean. In 100% of those cases, the ticket was dismissed but the amount of the fine paid as court fees- municipal court gets their money, and you don't get the points on your insurance- everyone's happy. The only person who came out of court with points was the lady who pleaded Not Guilty.
Good luck.
posted by Doohickie at 7:44 AM on July 22, 2005
If you can spare two days, it's worth the challenge. First you'll get a hearing before a magistrate. You give your side, another officer reads the state trooper's report, and the magistrate finds against you. Count on it.
After jumping through that hoop, you have the right to be heard by a judge. This time, the trooper is required to show up. If he doesn't, you win automatically. If he does, make your case calmly and respectfully. It sounds like you're asking a judge to believe your word over a cop's, so don't expect too much -- but you've got a shot, so it's worth a morning.
Statistically, in Massachusetts, your best chance is that the trooper won't appear. This is impossible to predict. You may know that the state police absorbed three other divisions years ago. If your trooper is former Registry, he will appear. If he's young and his lieutenant has ordered him to attend court challenges, he will probably appear. If he's older and if you were respectful during the stop, he may let it slide.
Cops don't like traffic court any more than you do. It's a waste of time, and they're being second-guessed by some judge. Moreover, they know the drill, and they understand that you've already wasted two days on the matter. It's like bringing a lawyer to plead to a misdemeanor: Oftentimes the judge will be more lenient, simply on the logic that your attorney's fee constitutes a fine.
I'm in MA. For the record: If you'd said where the citation was written, you might have received specific advice about the court (Wrentham, Woburn, Dorchester, etc.).
posted by cribcage at 7:53 AM on July 22, 2005
After jumping through that hoop, you have the right to be heard by a judge. This time, the trooper is required to show up. If he doesn't, you win automatically. If he does, make your case calmly and respectfully. It sounds like you're asking a judge to believe your word over a cop's, so don't expect too much -- but you've got a shot, so it's worth a morning.
Statistically, in Massachusetts, your best chance is that the trooper won't appear. This is impossible to predict. You may know that the state police absorbed three other divisions years ago. If your trooper is former Registry, he will appear. If he's young and his lieutenant has ordered him to attend court challenges, he will probably appear. If he's older and if you were respectful during the stop, he may let it slide.
Cops don't like traffic court any more than you do. It's a waste of time, and they're being second-guessed by some judge. Moreover, they know the drill, and they understand that you've already wasted two days on the matter. It's like bringing a lawyer to plead to a misdemeanor: Oftentimes the judge will be more lenient, simply on the logic that your attorney's fee constitutes a fine.
I'm in MA. For the record: If you'd said where the citation was written, you might have received specific advice about the court (Wrentham, Woburn, Dorchester, etc.).
posted by cribcage at 7:53 AM on July 22, 2005
You can keep delaying the court date and other trickery but that's really putting everything all up in the air. Here's what I did.
"I wish to plea down to a lesser charge"
They'll look at the speed and as long as you aren't going crazy over the amount they'll usually double or triple the ticket and set it to an exotic parking violation. Voila, no crazy insurance rate increase.
Keep in mind this is a very automated system, your best bet is to work with it. Dress in a nice jacket and look professional. I hate to say it, but if you look clean and nice and use legalese when talking they will work with you.
posted by geoff. at 7:55 AM on July 22, 2005
"I wish to plea down to a lesser charge"
They'll look at the speed and as long as you aren't going crazy over the amount they'll usually double or triple the ticket and set it to an exotic parking violation. Voila, no crazy insurance rate increase.
Keep in mind this is a very automated system, your best bet is to work with it. Dress in a nice jacket and look professional. I hate to say it, but if you look clean and nice and use legalese when talking they will work with you.
posted by geoff. at 7:55 AM on July 22, 2005
Yeah, going in with as much supporting data and knowledge of the law, etc. is the way to go.
Total derail, but related and an interesting story: How Google Maps Got Me Out Of A Traffic Ticket.
posted by ericb at 10:05 AM on July 22, 2005
Total derail, but related and an interesting story: How Google Maps Got Me Out Of A Traffic Ticket.
posted by ericb at 10:05 AM on July 22, 2005
Out of curiosity, what did you say to the cop when he told you how fast he thought you were going? Was he confrontational, agreeable, or other?
My inclination is to say you're screwed. The odds of beating a ticket based on your word vs a cop's are slim to nill. I just got a similarly undeserved parking ticket (much cheaper than a speeding ticket though) and I'm just going to pay it because I know I'll lose in court.
posted by knave at 10:22 AM on July 22, 2005
My inclination is to say you're screwed. The odds of beating a ticket based on your word vs a cop's are slim to nill. I just got a similarly undeserved parking ticket (much cheaper than a speeding ticket though) and I'm just going to pay it because I know I'll lose in court.
posted by knave at 10:22 AM on July 22, 2005
If you choose to challenge the ticket, spend a bit of time as part of the court gallery. You will find every court does thing differently and different things work better in different courts.
For example, I read above that someone's local court hands out breaks (well, at least changes the ticket to court fees) to people that plead guilty with an explanation. My local court never handed a single break out in the entire time I watched 50 or so people plead guilty with an explanation. If anything they would tack ON court fees if you put lots of effort into contesting it (I had to pay them... they were a maximum $3.75, and it was well worth it -- my tactics bought me an entire courtroom for a *day* with a judge called from holidays for the day. $23.75 total for that made me feel better... nobody deserves to profit from crime, including the city). Most people (in fact nobody else) paid court fees, but then again, they were pretty stupid, not even knowing they could refuse to take the witness stand (judge tried that on me several times, LOL).
posted by shepd at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2005
For example, I read above that someone's local court hands out breaks (well, at least changes the ticket to court fees) to people that plead guilty with an explanation. My local court never handed a single break out in the entire time I watched 50 or so people plead guilty with an explanation. If anything they would tack ON court fees if you put lots of effort into contesting it (I had to pay them... they were a maximum $3.75, and it was well worth it -- my tactics bought me an entire courtroom for a *day* with a judge called from holidays for the day. $23.75 total for that made me feel better... nobody deserves to profit from crime, including the city). Most people (in fact nobody else) paid court fees, but then again, they were pretty stupid, not even knowing they could refuse to take the witness stand (judge tried that on me several times, LOL).
posted by shepd at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2005
Actually in my state (Rhode Island) you get a freebie if you have a clean record for the past 3 years. You go to court, plead guilty and the explanation is the "good driving statute", and you don't pay the ticket (but you pay $25 court cost). It's almost useless though, the ticket still goes on your record and your insurance rates still rise as a result. The rate hike is the real penalty, the fine ($75 or whatever) is usually nothing compared to what you pay in insurance over the next 3 years.
posted by knave at 11:16 AM on July 22, 2005
posted by knave at 11:16 AM on July 22, 2005
I've never met a Massachusetts judge who was impressed or intimidated by someone opening an accordion file in a traffic hearing. There are exceptions to every rule, and I can't speak for other states; but in Massachusetts, that's bad advice. Wear a tie*, and the judge will know you're taking the matter seriously. Whip out a Google Maps printout, and you're just as likely to piss him off.
Internet advice is worth every dollar. Next time, try specifying, "Massachusetts residents with traffic court experience only, please." It hasn't been my experience that MeFi posters pay attention to such filters, but at least you'll have tried.
Having said all that: With respect to the above-mentioned article, I found the Slashdot discussion more interesting than the article itself. Lots of amusing anecdotes (although the CT story sounds like a crock from a crackpot).
* Sound obvious? You'll be surprised what people wear to court.
posted by cribcage at 11:45 AM on July 22, 2005
Internet advice is worth every dollar. Next time, try specifying, "Massachusetts residents with traffic court experience only, please." It hasn't been my experience that MeFi posters pay attention to such filters, but at least you'll have tried.
Having said all that: With respect to the above-mentioned article, I found the Slashdot discussion more interesting than the article itself. Lots of amusing anecdotes (although the CT story sounds like a crock from a crackpot).
* Sound obvious? You'll be surprised what people wear to court.
posted by cribcage at 11:45 AM on July 22, 2005
MA resident with a few speeding tickets ;-). I can only agree with what the rest of the MA posters said. DON"T even think about mentioning that you was driving over the limit if you want the charge dropped. 66 in a 65 is speeding. You can try to get the fine reduced by contesting the 82 but that's hardly worth the effort since you are looking at 6 years of punishment regardless.
Go to the first hearing (clerk magistrate) and ask for a court hearing. If it was a statie that gave you the ticket you have about 1 chance in 5 that he will NOT show up. If it was a local cop then there's a 50% chance he will NOT show up.
It's pretty neat to talk to all the other "innocent" drivers at the court room!
posted by Ferrari328 at 1:06 PM on July 22, 2005
Go to the first hearing (clerk magistrate) and ask for a court hearing. If it was a statie that gave you the ticket you have about 1 chance in 5 that he will NOT show up. If it was a local cop then there's a 50% chance he will NOT show up.
It's pretty neat to talk to all the other "innocent" drivers at the court room!
posted by Ferrari328 at 1:06 PM on July 22, 2005
>Is it worth challenging a speeding ticket in court?
Yes.
>I was not going 82 (<7 0) and am confused as to how i wasbr> >clocked at this.... I've paid tickets in the past but I truly feel
>I don't deserve it this time.
It doesn't matter what you actually did. It doesn't matter if you deserve it. What matters is what happens next. ask your insurer how much your rates would go up for a ticket. Consider that you might get another one tommorow, check on the surcharge for two.
Compare that with the price to hire a lawyer. For my last ticket I was guilty as the original sin, but I didn't want my rates to go up forever, or however long it is now. I found someone who was connected in the jurisdiction of the offense, told him up front I was guilty but wanted to beat it.
I listened to everything everybody said at the court. Didn't understand a word he said, wasn't clear what they asked him, what he was saying had actually happened. I didn't say a damn thing except "Here" when they called me up front.
He made as much for 15 minute worth of work as I earned in half a month. It was worth every penny.
posted by Ken McE at 4:16 PM on July 22, 2005
Yes.
>I was not going 82 (<7 0) and am confused as to how i wasbr> >clocked at this.... I've paid tickets in the past but I truly feel
>I don't deserve it this time.
It doesn't matter what you actually did. It doesn't matter if you deserve it. What matters is what happens next. ask your insurer how much your rates would go up for a ticket. Consider that you might get another one tommorow, check on the surcharge for two.
Compare that with the price to hire a lawyer. For my last ticket I was guilty as the original sin, but I didn't want my rates to go up forever, or however long it is now. I found someone who was connected in the jurisdiction of the offense, told him up front I was guilty but wanted to beat it.
I listened to everything everybody said at the court. Didn't understand a word he said, wasn't clear what they asked him, what he was saying had actually happened. I didn't say a damn thing except "Here" when they called me up front.
He made as much for 15 minute worth of work as I earned in half a month. It was worth every penny.
posted by Ken McE at 4:16 PM on July 22, 2005
Don't bring a lawyer to dispute a speeding violation in Massachusetts. You probably couldn't find a lawyer who would agree; but even if you can, don't.
Misdemeanor? Absolutely. Speeding? Never.
posted by cribcage at 7:40 PM on July 22, 2005
Misdemeanor? Absolutely. Speeding? Never.
posted by cribcage at 7:40 PM on July 22, 2005
If you choose to challenge the ticket, spend a bit of time as part of the court gallery. You will find every court does thing differently and different things work better in different courts.
For example, I read above that someone's local court hands out breaks (well, at least changes the ticket to court fees) to people that plead guilty with an explanation. My local court never handed a single break out in the entire time I watched 50 or so people plead guilty with an explanation. If anything they would tack ON court fees if you put lots of effort into contesting it (I had to pay them... they were a maximum $3.75, and it was well worth it -- my tactics bought me an entire courtroom for a *day* with a judge called from holidays for the day. $23.75 total for that made me feel better... nobody deserves to profit from crime, including the city). Most people (in fact nobody else) paid court fees, but then again, they were pretty stupid, not even knowing they could refuse to take the witness stand (judge tried that on me several times, LOL).
posted by shepd at 10:35 AM PST on July 22 [!]
Keep in mind shepd lives in Canada, so this really has nothing to do with your situation.
posted by angry modem at 7:59 PM on July 22, 2005
For example, I read above that someone's local court hands out breaks (well, at least changes the ticket to court fees) to people that plead guilty with an explanation. My local court never handed a single break out in the entire time I watched 50 or so people plead guilty with an explanation. If anything they would tack ON court fees if you put lots of effort into contesting it (I had to pay them... they were a maximum $3.75, and it was well worth it -- my tactics bought me an entire courtroom for a *day* with a judge called from holidays for the day. $23.75 total for that made me feel better... nobody deserves to profit from crime, including the city). Most people (in fact nobody else) paid court fees, but then again, they were pretty stupid, not even knowing they could refuse to take the witness stand (judge tried that on me several times, LOL).
posted by shepd at 10:35 AM PST on July 22 [!]
Keep in mind shepd lives in Canada, so this really has nothing to do with your situation.
posted by angry modem at 7:59 PM on July 22, 2005
Former MA resident with a speeding ticket here.
When I went before the Northampton magistrate, he asked why I was contesting the ticket, and I said, "Because I can't afford to pay it." He said, "You shouldn't speed if you can't afford the ticket" then got a very funny look on his face and asked if I could pay US$50 if given 3 months. It didn't show up on my insurance, either.
This is probably not a good tactic, but it did work for me (and I took this tack on the advice of a trucker friend).
posted by QIbHom at 11:51 AM on July 23, 2005
When I went before the Northampton magistrate, he asked why I was contesting the ticket, and I said, "Because I can't afford to pay it." He said, "You shouldn't speed if you can't afford the ticket" then got a very funny look on his face and asked if I could pay US$50 if given 3 months. It didn't show up on my insurance, either.
This is probably not a good tactic, but it did work for me (and I took this tack on the advice of a trucker friend).
posted by QIbHom at 11:51 AM on July 23, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
i'm not from MA and i've never had a ticket, but there are a lot of email threads about the topic at work. :)
posted by clarahamster at 7:06 PM on July 21, 2005