Do babies understand mirrors?
July 19, 2005 10:37 PM Subscribe
Do babies understand the concept of mirrors?
My 4 month old loves to look in the mirror. She talks at it all day long. Does she know it's her own reflection she's seeing, or does she think she's talking to another baby? When I'm holding her in front of the mirror, does the clue that I'm here, and in the mirror tell her that the little girl she's looking at must be her? If so, did she know it from the first time she looked in the mirror, or did it suddenly hit her one day? What age does that typically happen?
My 4 month old loves to look in the mirror. She talks at it all day long. Does she know it's her own reflection she's seeing, or does she think she's talking to another baby? When I'm holding her in front of the mirror, does the clue that I'm here, and in the mirror tell her that the little girl she's looking at must be her? If so, did she know it from the first time she looked in the mirror, or did it suddenly hit her one day? What age does that typically happen?
I-am-not-a-psychologist, but I seem to recal from Psych 101 that mirror identification is part of the integral acknowledgement of individuality. Blah blah blah.
My experience as a father is that my babies all had to come to terms with the baby in the mirror as actually being themselves. There were amusing periods with all three of them when they were convinced that a baby was in there, mimicing everything they were doing. It got immediately confusing for them when another Daddy was in there as well, however. Particularly when the Daddy couldn't stop giggling. Daddy can suck, sometimes.
My interest in the process is how it relates to their understanding of the world around them. All three of them got right up to the mirror and started interacting with the baby. My youngest (now 2) decided almost within a couple of days that the baby in the mirror was actually her, and that when Daddy was talking about the baby in the mirror, that we were playing a game. Since then, she's turned out to be amazingly bright. Hopefully, I'll make enough money so that she doesn't have to strip to work her way through college. As Chris Rock says, I've got one job as a Daddy of a little girl.
posted by thanotopsis at 10:44 PM on July 19, 2005
My experience as a father is that my babies all had to come to terms with the baby in the mirror as actually being themselves. There were amusing periods with all three of them when they were convinced that a baby was in there, mimicing everything they were doing. It got immediately confusing for them when another Daddy was in there as well, however. Particularly when the Daddy couldn't stop giggling. Daddy can suck, sometimes.
My interest in the process is how it relates to their understanding of the world around them. All three of them got right up to the mirror and started interacting with the baby. My youngest (now 2) decided almost within a couple of days that the baby in the mirror was actually her, and that when Daddy was talking about the baby in the mirror, that we were playing a game. Since then, she's turned out to be amazingly bright. Hopefully, I'll make enough money so that she doesn't have to strip to work her way through college. As Chris Rock says, I've got one job as a Daddy of a little girl.
posted by thanotopsis at 10:44 PM on July 19, 2005
there was a program about this on the discovery channel the other day- the ages where babies learn things (like the baby in the mirror is just their reflection, that other people might have a different perspective on things, that what people believe to be true isn't necessarily true) is pretty much consistent across the board for all normal babies.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:57 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:57 PM on July 19, 2005
Ah, but it takes them at least another forty years to realize that mirrors don't reverse left and right.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:21 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:21 PM on July 19, 2005
Anybody know their Lacan?
posted by maledictory at 11:39 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by maledictory at 11:39 PM on July 19, 2005
Response by poster: thanotopsis: OK, so how do you "know" when they know? What told you that they *got* it?
posted by b_thinky at 12:21 AM on July 20, 2005
posted by b_thinky at 12:21 AM on July 20, 2005
From looking at this page about the mirror test, it seems that if you regularly brought her to a mirror and let her look at her reflection, then marked her forehead with something quite noticeable, you could gague her reaction...
I'd assume reaching for her own head would clearly show that she understood it was her reflection. Reaching for the mirror wouldn't show much at all.
The page indicates that babies under two aren't expected to understand.
I cannot begin to remember what stage of development a 4 month old baby is at, as far as reaching up to its own head, or realising that it has a head at all, so ymmv.
This wonderful question led me to find that my cat, who is really fascinated with a floor-length mirror I have, probably has no clue what the heck's going on in there.
posted by FortyT-wo at 12:37 AM on July 20, 2005
I'd assume reaching for her own head would clearly show that she understood it was her reflection. Reaching for the mirror wouldn't show much at all.
The page indicates that babies under two aren't expected to understand.
I cannot begin to remember what stage of development a 4 month old baby is at, as far as reaching up to its own head, or realising that it has a head at all, so ymmv.
This wonderful question led me to find that my cat, who is really fascinated with a floor-length mirror I have, probably has no clue what the heck's going on in there.
posted by FortyT-wo at 12:37 AM on July 20, 2005
b_thinky: Here's the classic test.
While she's asleep, put a little bit of makeup or other colorful stuff on her face that she won't notice when she wakes up. When she's awake, let her look at the mirror for a while.
If she begins rubbing at the marking on her own face, she recognizes that it's her in the mirror.
posted by sellout at 12:39 AM on July 20, 2005
While she's asleep, put a little bit of makeup or other colorful stuff on her face that she won't notice when she wakes up. When she's awake, let her look at the mirror for a while.
If she begins rubbing at the marking on her own face, she recognizes that it's her in the mirror.
posted by sellout at 12:39 AM on July 20, 2005
FortyT-wo has the right idea. Didn't see it on preview. :)
posted by sellout at 12:41 AM on July 20, 2005
posted by sellout at 12:41 AM on July 20, 2005
I also have a 4 month old who loves to be in front of the mirror and I was wondering the same thing.
after many hours of playing around in front of the mirror I'm going to say that they learn that the reflection is them rather than immediately know it. I think it is touch rather than sight that creates that understanding. when I give my kid a kiss in front of the mirror he can see that daddy is kissing and at the same time he can feel that kiss on his cheek so I think he associates what he sees with what he feels and somehow makes the connection.
the thing that surprised me was that at 2 months he was imitating me. when I stuck out my tongue he would also stick out his tongue... how does he know that he also has a tongue?
posted by ronenosity at 12:49 AM on July 20, 2005
after many hours of playing around in front of the mirror I'm going to say that they learn that the reflection is them rather than immediately know it. I think it is touch rather than sight that creates that understanding. when I give my kid a kiss in front of the mirror he can see that daddy is kissing and at the same time he can feel that kiss on his cheek so I think he associates what he sees with what he feels and somehow makes the connection.
the thing that surprised me was that at 2 months he was imitating me. when I stuck out my tongue he would also stick out his tongue... how does he know that he also has a tongue?
posted by ronenosity at 12:49 AM on July 20, 2005
Yes with a but, No with a maybe.
From my years of Developmental Psych, I remember that we don't become aware that our hands are actually *our* hands until much later than 4 months, so I'd say what your baby is doing is just treating the reflection as another baby and that's she's not aware that it's actually herself, yet.
She'll play the mirror reflecting game with it ( the same way that she'll play it with you ) and eventually the neurons will fire & connect that the reflection is making the same faces as her. You'll notice the change when she gains self-awareness, as she'll stop trying to interact with the mirror as a seperate entity, and start interacting with her own body through the mirror.
This is the imitation that ronenosity is referring to, we learn most of our basic early social traits (speech, body language) by imitating those around us, so we're wired to take special notice of what we see around us and copy it. We don't necessarily realise that we have a tongue by poking it out, we're just wired to imitate someone putting out their tongue.
posted by oliyoung at 1:18 AM on July 20, 2005
From my years of Developmental Psych, I remember that we don't become aware that our hands are actually *our* hands until much later than 4 months, so I'd say what your baby is doing is just treating the reflection as another baby and that's she's not aware that it's actually herself, yet.
She'll play the mirror reflecting game with it ( the same way that she'll play it with you ) and eventually the neurons will fire & connect that the reflection is making the same faces as her. You'll notice the change when she gains self-awareness, as she'll stop trying to interact with the mirror as a seperate entity, and start interacting with her own body through the mirror.
This is the imitation that ronenosity is referring to, we learn most of our basic early social traits (speech, body language) by imitating those around us, so we're wired to take special notice of what we see around us and copy it. We don't necessarily realise that we have a tongue by poking it out, we're just wired to imitate someone putting out their tongue.
posted by oliyoung at 1:18 AM on July 20, 2005
Response by poster: the thing that surprised me was that at 2 months he was imitating me. when I stuck out my tongue he would also stick out his tongue... how does he know that he also has a tongue?
I actually thought the same thing once, but then realized she basically has her toungue sticking out 50% of the time.
If she begins rubbing at the marking on her own face, she recognizes that it's her in the mirror.
I'll try and see, but I don't think at this point she's coordinated enough to really do so. Not only would she have to be able to touch a point on her face, but she'd have to do it by looking through the "backwards" mirror.
My daughter hasn't really done much with her hands until this week, when she suddenly had an amazing breakthrough, or some kind of "a-ha" moment. Now she reaches, grabs and holds stuff pretty well. We've been trying to get her to pick her binky up and put it in her mouth, but she can't seem to find her mouth quite yet.
Yes with a but, No with a maybe.
I guess the moral of the story is we never know what the hell our kids are really thinking. And in 18 years, I'll probably be asking myself questions that are strikingly similar in nature!
posted by b_thinky at 2:26 AM on July 20, 2005
I actually thought the same thing once, but then realized she basically has her toungue sticking out 50% of the time.
If she begins rubbing at the marking on her own face, she recognizes that it's her in the mirror.
I'll try and see, but I don't think at this point she's coordinated enough to really do so. Not only would she have to be able to touch a point on her face, but she'd have to do it by looking through the "backwards" mirror.
My daughter hasn't really done much with her hands until this week, when she suddenly had an amazing breakthrough, or some kind of "a-ha" moment. Now she reaches, grabs and holds stuff pretty well. We've been trying to get her to pick her binky up and put it in her mouth, but she can't seem to find her mouth quite yet.
Yes with a but, No with a maybe.
I guess the moral of the story is we never know what the hell our kids are really thinking. And in 18 years, I'll probably be asking myself questions that are strikingly similar in nature!
posted by b_thinky at 2:26 AM on July 20, 2005
Not about mirrors specifically, but I recently visited the Clinton-Macomb library, where they have a kid's storytime room where the walls are all glass, and they had to put little etchings in the glass because some of the youngest kids didn't quite get the idea of glass.
posted by dagnyscott at 7:23 AM on July 20, 2005
posted by dagnyscott at 7:23 AM on July 20, 2005
b_thinky: Oops, that's silly of me. I wasn't paying enough attention to her age. I should have realized that.
Glancing through some of my old lecture notes, it looks like most infants don't recognize themselves until about 15 months to 24 months, some earlier and some later. Lewis and Brooks-Gunn (1979) published the paper that produced that conclusion, in case you're interested in reading more about it.
It's a very interesting chance to experiment. You might try the test once a month and see if you can pick out the age at which she does begin to recognize herself.
posted by sellout at 8:29 AM on July 20, 2005
Glancing through some of my old lecture notes, it looks like most infants don't recognize themselves until about 15 months to 24 months, some earlier and some later. Lewis and Brooks-Gunn (1979) published the paper that produced that conclusion, in case you're interested in reading more about it.
It's a very interesting chance to experiment. You might try the test once a month and see if you can pick out the age at which she does begin to recognize herself.
posted by sellout at 8:29 AM on July 20, 2005
Back in college I attended a lecture given by Gordon Gallup, the inventor of the mirror test, and got a chance to talk to him afterwards. The video evidence he supplied as far as higher primates were concerned, at least, was very convincing.
To properly conduct the mirror test, here's what you'll need to do - mark the back of your baby's hand with some makeup or washable marker (or whatever is non-toxic). Make a similar mark with the same material on your baby's forehead.
Observe the baby when it wakes - does it notice and react to the spot on its hand? If so, show it a mirror image of itself - does it reach for its forehead in any way?
Generally speaking higher primates including chimpanzees, orangutans - but not gorillas or rhesus monkeys as of our lecture five years ago - will pass the mirror test after three to six weeks of exposure to a mirror. Rhesus monkeys failed to pass the test after seventeen years of exposure. If I remember correctly, the results with gorillas were fairly hit or miss depending on the individual. I also remember reading recently that dolphins have passed a variation on the test.
Human babies as a general rule do not pass the test until eighteen months of age, although I wouldn't think fifteen months to be outside of the normal range. Generally speaking it takes that long to develop the basic concept that 'self' is different from 'environment' and, oddly enough to my male thinking, 'mother.' I'm hesitant to say that four months is outright impossible provided the baby has heavy exposure to a mirror, but from what little I remember of developmental psychology I would be very surprised to see an infant under twelve months convincingly and reproducibly pass the mirror test.
There are some pretty significant implications as far as ethics regarding the treatment of animals and abortion is concerned, but that conversation gets very messy and the mirror test isn't a certain enough indicator of mental states as to base one's worldview upon it.
posted by Ryvar at 9:22 AM on July 20, 2005
To properly conduct the mirror test, here's what you'll need to do - mark the back of your baby's hand with some makeup or washable marker (or whatever is non-toxic). Make a similar mark with the same material on your baby's forehead.
Observe the baby when it wakes - does it notice and react to the spot on its hand? If so, show it a mirror image of itself - does it reach for its forehead in any way?
Generally speaking higher primates including chimpanzees, orangutans - but not gorillas or rhesus monkeys as of our lecture five years ago - will pass the mirror test after three to six weeks of exposure to a mirror. Rhesus monkeys failed to pass the test after seventeen years of exposure. If I remember correctly, the results with gorillas were fairly hit or miss depending on the individual. I also remember reading recently that dolphins have passed a variation on the test.
Human babies as a general rule do not pass the test until eighteen months of age, although I wouldn't think fifteen months to be outside of the normal range. Generally speaking it takes that long to develop the basic concept that 'self' is different from 'environment' and, oddly enough to my male thinking, 'mother.' I'm hesitant to say that four months is outright impossible provided the baby has heavy exposure to a mirror, but from what little I remember of developmental psychology I would be very surprised to see an infant under twelve months convincingly and reproducibly pass the mirror test.
There are some pretty significant implications as far as ethics regarding the treatment of animals and abortion is concerned, but that conversation gets very messy and the mirror test isn't a certain enough indicator of mental states as to base one's worldview upon it.
posted by Ryvar at 9:22 AM on July 20, 2005
My girlfriend is an early childhood specialist (professionally, even!) and she assures me that a four month old child has only the rudiments of self-awareness to begin with.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:07 AM on July 20, 2005
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:07 AM on July 20, 2005
ronenosity, your young one might not need to know that he has a tongue. That's what mirror neurons appear to be for. Or the Wikipedia entry.
posted by ontic at 10:20 AM on July 20, 2005
posted by ontic at 10:20 AM on July 20, 2005
From about 5 months my daughter recognised herself in a series of pictures. Whether she knew it was her or just that it was the face I like the most I guess is open for debate.
posted by Mitheral at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2005
posted by Mitheral at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2005
Slightly OT, but what I want to know is why my cats don't give a fcuk when I hold them in front of the mirror. They were never exposed to them much as they grew up in a shelter. And the more aggressive of the two clearly reacts to cats outside or window.
posted by trillion at 2:39 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by trillion at 2:39 PM on July 20, 2005
Response by poster: From about 5 months my daughter recognised herself in a series of pictures. Whether she knew it was her or just that it was the face I like the most I guess is open for debate.
That is interesting. My daughter also likes to see photos of herself, and she's more interested in seeing her reflection in the mirror than anyone else's. If I'm holding her in the mirror for instance, her eyes never move to my reflection. They remain fixated on her own.
I think babies must have some sense of self. They must know that they're babies (or really small compared to everyone else), because they seem to bond with other babies pretty easily.
posted by b_thinky at 3:33 PM on July 20, 2005
That is interesting. My daughter also likes to see photos of herself, and she's more interested in seeing her reflection in the mirror than anyone else's. If I'm holding her in the mirror for instance, her eyes never move to my reflection. They remain fixated on her own.
I think babies must have some sense of self. They must know that they're babies (or really small compared to everyone else), because they seem to bond with other babies pretty easily.
posted by b_thinky at 3:33 PM on July 20, 2005
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posted by obiwanwasabi at 10:42 PM on July 19, 2005