No card no job.

April 17, 2012 9:20 AM

Can an employer require you to present a social security card for employment? I have a number but my employer is insisting that I show them the physical card before they let me work. I can easily get one but I wonder if what they're doing is legal. Is it?

I'm in suburban Illinois, US if that makes a difference. Previously I had been using my US Passport which they did not have a problem with until it expired.

posted by lester's sock puppet to Law & Government (31 answers total)

Since an employer has to pay Social Security tax on you, yes you can be required to show the card.
posted by jayder at 9:23 AM on April 17, 2012

You need to provide them with original documentation valid for an I9. If you're using your social security card as one of those documents, then they need the original.

Further, an expired passport is not acceptable for the I9, after the policies were revised in 2009.
posted by mercredi at 9:23 AM on April 17, 2012 [14 favorites]

The identity requirements for the I9 form require the identification physically be present. There's a variety of qualifying documents, which is why your passport worked, but if you're down to using your SSN you have to show the card for employment or pick a different document.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:23 AM on April 17, 2012 [2 favorites]

Do you have any currently valid government-issued physical ID? If you got a new passport, would they accept that? Or (presuming you don't drive here because you were using a passport for ID) another state-issued ID for non-drivers?
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:24 AM on April 17, 2012

They can, yes. It hasn't been required of me often, but I did have to get a new card (couldn't find the old one) when my current employer wanted a copy of the real, actual card, despite the fact that I could produce a current passport and an official copy of my birth certificate.
posted by rtha at 9:24 AM on April 17, 2012

Oh god the I-9. I used to be the I-9 guy at my old job.

No, they can't require you to show them a SS card for the purposes of employment. They require you to show a) proof of identification and b) proof of your ability to work in the US. If you're using the Social Security card for B, you have to show them the original. Otherwise, it's straight-up illegal to to deny someone a fair chance at a position if they don't show you a Social Security card. Hell, you're not even supposed to ask them the number (although the latter part is never enforced and no one knows about it.) The choice is optional on the I-9 but that's hidden in the 500-page manual for the form.

The W-4, for tax purposes requires you to put a Social Security down, but, again, they can't demand to see your card.
posted by griphus at 9:27 AM on April 17, 2012 [4 favorites]

Employers require new hires to provide proof that they are citizens and/or have the right to work in the United States.

Proof could include a valid passport, or photo ID and a Social Security card, with a name on it that matches the name on your ID. Your ID and/or passport has to be current to be valid-- expired ID is not valid. That may or may not seem dumb, but that's the law.
posted by Kpele at 9:27 AM on April 17, 2012

If you look at the actual document, page 4, column B, you'll see what you can show them instead of the SS card. They're breaking Federal law if they demand to see a particular document for the purposes of employment. If they have some internal reason to require the SS card, that's a state/local law thing.
posted by griphus at 9:29 AM on April 17, 2012 [2 favorites]

They should also be willing to accept your birth certificate (if you were born in the US) -- but you can see on the last page of the I9 form that mercredi linked to, if you don't have something from List A (probably your valid passport), you need something from list B (probably a driver's license) AND something from list C (probably a social security card or official birth certificate), and these do have to be physically present.
posted by brainmouse at 9:29 AM on April 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

(Of course, unless you're planning to sue them, telling them they CAN'T do X because it's the law just means you just won't get the job. See also: asking people their age, marital status, etc.)
posted by griphus at 9:31 AM on April 17, 2012

Response by poster: thanks for the quick responses.

--i know they have to have the number but i can't find anywhere online where it says that i have to show the card itself.

--when i had filled out my i-9 my passport was unexpired. apparently they keep records on this and when my passport expired they sent me a letter requesting a copy of my unexpired passport. when i called to discuss this they then noted that they didn't have a copy of my ss card on file, and therefore never eligible for employment.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 9:31 AM on April 17, 2012

Yes, they might be asking you for the Social Security card because it's by far the easiest and cheapest thing to get from List C (at least it would be here in Massachusetts; I don't know how expensive birth certificates run in Illinois).
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 AM on April 17, 2012

That's bullshit. Unless the rules changed, an I-9 filled out with a document that later expired does not need to be updated unless the document was an Employment Authorization Card issued to a Visa holder or Permanent Resident. An I-9 filled out with a Passport also does not require a Social Security card or number for that matter.

I can dig through the manual when I get home if you'd like.
posted by griphus at 9:32 AM on April 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

It sounds like whoever you spoke to was a little confused about exactly what would be necessary for the I-9, but it also sounds like you're not currently meeting the requirements for a valid I-9.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:33 AM on April 17, 2012

but i can't find anywhere online where it says that i have to show the card itself.

The I9 is pretty clear; Item #1 in list C is "Social Security Account Number card".
posted by brainmouse at 9:33 AM on April 17, 2012

(Again, keep in mind this is all on the Federal level. I have no idea about the legality of them needing the Passport/SS for other issues. But as far as the I-9 is concerned, the rules are clear.)
posted by griphus at 9:34 AM on April 17, 2012

...you're not currently meeting the requirements for a valid I-9.

If he held an unexpired passport at the time when he completed the I-9 for the current employer, he's met them permanently for that one employer.
posted by griphus at 9:35 AM on April 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

I normally just showed my unexpired passport, but they do need your social security number, and some employers, to legally cover themselves, want to see the card itself and place a photocopy of it in their files.
posted by deanc at 9:37 AM on April 17, 2012

The I9 is pretty clear; Item #1 in list C is "Social Security Account Number card".

The OP's I-9 (like mine) was filled in using a US passport (valid at the time, now expired). In that case, it is unnecessary to produce a Social Security card.

It looks like (though we need griphus to check the manual) that the employer does not actually need to retain a copy of the passport or its expiration date, nor does the I-9 expire with the passport. (And if they do so, they must do so for all employees.)
posted by hoyland at 9:38 AM on April 17, 2012

If he held an unexpired passport at the time when he completed the I-9 for the current employer, he's met them permanently for that one employer.

We used to do new I-9s for each contract period, even with returning employees. I guess I thought that was standard practice?
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:39 AM on April 17, 2012 [2 favorites]

The employer is required to note the expiration date of any documentation on the I9, and it's possible to only grant work authorization for a limited time period, e.g. the time of a contract, at which point it would have to be renewed & reverified. Is it possible your work authorization was only temporary? And the social security number is required regardless if the employer uses E-Verify.
posted by brainmouse at 9:42 AM on April 17, 2012

Best answer: The passport's expiration date has to be put on the I-9, Section 2, List A, Line 4. You're right about the copies. I-9s themselves also never expire, just the documents used to complete them.

We used to do new I-9s for each contract period, even with returning employees.

It's a gray area with contracts. You're technically not supposed to do that, but you're allowed to with the employee's consent. However, you can get into deep shit if you deny someone a job because they can't re-complete an I-9 if there's a valid I-9 on file (and there's stringent requirements for keeping I-9s on file even for former employees.)

...and it's possible to only grant work authorization for a limited time period...

The government can do that, not an employer. I mean, an employer can give a limited-time contract, but they can't claim you're ineligible for employment on the basis of Federal law. State/local laws differ.
posted by griphus at 9:44 AM on April 17, 2012

Here's the 65-page handbook for the I-9 if anyone wants to go spelunking.
posted by griphus at 9:49 AM on April 17, 2012 [6 favorites]

However, you can get into deep shit if you deny someone a job because they can't re-complete an I-9 if there's a valid I-9 on file (and there's stringent requirements for keeping I-9s on file even for former employees.)

Thanks, griphus. I did not know that! Perhaps that's the correct way for lester's sock puppet to address this with his employer: "I checked into it, and the law is pretty clear that the I-9 is valid even after the ID has expired."

I wonder if they had some kind of shenanigans with another employee using a false Social Security number, and now they're taking it out on everyone in a fit of overreaction?
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:51 AM on April 17, 2012

This is the official Handbook for Employers on filling out the I-9. It states that the employer cannot specify which documents the employee must present from those on the lists, however they may only accept unexpired documents. In certain circumstances, they must accept a receipt in lieu of a document (which will commonly be valid for 90 days and then the employee must present the actual document).

Certain documents may need to be reverified when they expire, but "U.S. citizens and noncitizen nationals never need reverification. Do not reverify the following documents: An expired US passport or passport card..." (Pg. 8)

In short, if you provided a passport before the expiration date, they do not need to reverify you and cannot demand your Social Security card on that basis. In practice, you'll probably want to provide them this handbook with the relevant provisions highlighted and go ahead and give them the goddamn card (or receipt if you lost it) so you can get to work.

(I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice.)
posted by wuzandfuzz at 9:51 AM on April 17, 2012 [6 favorites]

I got sent home on the first day of a job for not having my actual physical card on me that day (my parents didn't trust me to save important paperwork) and handing over a photocopy instead. I had to have my mom drive the card up to me. So yeah, it happens. Whether or not this is going to happen probably varies from job to job though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:57 AM on April 17, 2012

I wonder if they had some kind of shenanigans with another employee using a false Social Security number, and now they're taking it out on everyone in a fit of overreaction?

Maybe on the accounting/tax end. On the employment authorization end, there's two scenarios. Either they're using E-Verify, which will tell them off the bat that an SS# is valid, or they're only required to make a fair appraisal (I don't remember the exact language) that the document is real. If the SS Card isn't required (i.e. they're using a List A document on the I-9,) they're allowed to assume the number given to them is legitimate. So anything short of an index card with the words "SOSHIAL SEKURITY" in crayon, a well-made forgery won't get the employer in trouble (again, as far as the USCIS is concerned.)
posted by griphus at 9:57 AM on April 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Griphus is giving you good info. I'm going to give you a personal experience: I had this happen when I provided my (unexpired) passport, and they insisted I couldn't work without giving them my SS card for them to Xerox and put on file. I flatly refused. The HR drone and I argued about the I-9 for almost an hour. She literally did not understand that it was one from column A OR one each from B and C ... she kept insisting it was "one from A or B" AND "one from C." I read the tops of the columns to her (documents to establish identity and eligibility to work). I pointed out that being a U.S. citizen was prima facie evidence of a right to work in the U.S. so OBVIOUSLY my passport was adequate proof of my right to work, and coincidentally much harder to forge than a social security card. She said she needed my SS card and, now that she thought about it, my driver's license too to prove my identity, since "nobody's ever used a passport before." We went round and round and round. Finally I told her I needed to talk to the head of HR.

Talked to the head of HR the next day, who also insisted I needed a SS card. (By now it was a matter of principle for me.) She said it was for "tax reasons," not for the I-9. I pointed out she only needed the NUMBER or a taxpayer ID #, not the card. We went round and round for an hour. Finally I told her that she was incorrect, what she was demanding was not legal, and her legal department was going to have to contact my lawyer.

So the next day THAT happened, and the legal department agreed that, in fact, they did not need my SS card and that the HR department would be receiving some retraining. It had become an internal policy because they'd had two people hired at about the same time provide incorrect SSNs (not fraudulently but made a "typo" (write-o?) when writing them on the tax form) and that had created a giant headache w/r/t tax forms later on, so it was now internal policy to ask the employee to show the card and verify the number against the form, but it was not REQUIRED.

So anyway, if they're stonewalling you, you will probably have to escalate, and people who deal with employment documentation all day do not necessarily have any idea what they're doing. (That who A OR B AND C thing with the grouping of the operations still gives me a headache just thinking about it! It was like talking to a post!)

All this was for the tiniest short-term, part-time job ever, btw, for which I was paid a grand total of $89, but their level of wrongness really irritated me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:14 AM on April 17, 2012 [11 favorites]

Response by poster: eyebrows, that's very similar to my current situation except i have already been working for them for the past year. they are now refusing to schedule me for any more work until i comply with their paperwork requirements. unfortunately the person claims to be the final word on the issue so i have no more recourse within the company.

griphus you are spot on from everything i've read and understand. i'm just curious as to what recourse i have outside of the company.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 10:46 AM on April 17, 2012

Any recourse is going to be a veritable mire of bureaucracy. If you can figure out how, you can report them to the USCIS. However, the whole I-9 rigmarole works on the honor system and unless your company is currently employing a whole bunch of illegal workers, it's unlikely the USCIS will take any sort of action. You could always get a lawyer, but, honestly, wuzandfuzz had the best advice.
posted by griphus at 10:57 AM on April 17, 2012

(By "honor system" I mean that the Federal Government never actually sees the I-9s unless there's an audit. And audits are generally triggered by illegal workers, not bad procedure.)
posted by griphus at 11:00 AM on April 17, 2012