Tuning out the family
March 26, 2012 6:53 PM Subscribe
I need help dealing with hateful relatives.
Today, my mom posted a Facebook status, in clear reference to the Trayvon Martin story, basically insinuating that if her son were killed - that son being me - she wouldn't get a phone call from the President. The insinuation, verified by a follow-up comment "Hmm, wonder what's the difference?", is that the Martin family is being treated specially because they're black. She got a bunch of "likes", including from her husband and my sister's long-term boyfriend.
A few days ago she minimized the notion of a hate crime, asking "Isn't every murder a hate crime?" - again in clear reference to this kid. Again, a bunch of likes.
This isn't about not wanting to hear different opinions; my personal philosophy is basically that the world is a very uncertain and unknowable place and opinions should generally be respected. Even in this case I understand that not all the facts are known. And I'm used to hateful comments from my grandparents, who regularly drop all kinds of racial slurs. But from my mom, this is new and different. She's prone to ignorant political beliefs but this is particularly gross and utterly callous - resenting a family whose son just got shot and killed because of a Presidential phone call.
This has been bothering me all day. How do you deal with this?
Today, my mom posted a Facebook status, in clear reference to the Trayvon Martin story, basically insinuating that if her son were killed - that son being me - she wouldn't get a phone call from the President. The insinuation, verified by a follow-up comment "Hmm, wonder what's the difference?", is that the Martin family is being treated specially because they're black. She got a bunch of "likes", including from her husband and my sister's long-term boyfriend.
A few days ago she minimized the notion of a hate crime, asking "Isn't every murder a hate crime?" - again in clear reference to this kid. Again, a bunch of likes.
This isn't about not wanting to hear different opinions; my personal philosophy is basically that the world is a very uncertain and unknowable place and opinions should generally be respected. Even in this case I understand that not all the facts are known. And I'm used to hateful comments from my grandparents, who regularly drop all kinds of racial slurs. But from my mom, this is new and different. She's prone to ignorant political beliefs but this is particularly gross and utterly callous - resenting a family whose son just got shot and killed because of a Presidential phone call.
This has been bothering me all day. How do you deal with this?
I deal with this by taking those people off my Facebook newsfeed. Poof! Gone!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:06 PM on March 26, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:06 PM on March 26, 2012 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Yeah, I just felt bad about that, she is my mother. It's worth considering, though.
posted by downing street memo at 7:07 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by downing street memo at 7:07 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
Didn't Obama just call Sandra Fluke a couple weeks ago for being insulted by Rush Limbaugh? She's not black so your mom can't act like it's some kind of black conspiracy. He calls citizens with some regularity.
I think the most effective thing you can do is just keep pointing out reality to her in a reasonable way. A lot of the time people (all kinds) live in echo chambers where they are pretty much just surrounded by people who think like them. And it can just make them stop to think when a different opinion penetrates that, even if they act stubborn at the time.
posted by cairdeas at 7:08 PM on March 26, 2012 [8 favorites]
I think the most effective thing you can do is just keep pointing out reality to her in a reasonable way. A lot of the time people (all kinds) live in echo chambers where they are pretty much just surrounded by people who think like them. And it can just make them stop to think when a different opinion penetrates that, even if they act stubborn at the time.
posted by cairdeas at 7:08 PM on March 26, 2012 [8 favorites]
Hide that user's posts from your Newsfeed and then visit their page every now and then. That way you're not blind sided with hate and can pick when you want to potentially deal with it.
If mom finds out, be honest about the change. "Some of your posts bother me because they sound racist and hateful. I love you mom, but I don't want to see that stuff, it makes me really uncomfortable."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 PM on March 26, 2012 [11 favorites]
If mom finds out, be honest about the change. "Some of your posts bother me because they sound racist and hateful. I love you mom, but I don't want to see that stuff, it makes me really uncomfortable."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 PM on March 26, 2012 [11 favorites]
Also, has your mom recently started listening to more talk radio? Among the right-wingers I know I always notice an uptick in this sort of thing when they start tuning into that stuff more frequently. Maybe she is lonely or bored. I think right-wing talk radio is really good at giving lonely and bored people something to get worked up about, a purpose to feel.
posted by cairdeas at 7:15 PM on March 26, 2012 [10 favorites]
posted by cairdeas at 7:15 PM on March 26, 2012 [10 favorites]
How do you deal with this?
Most of my immediate family have views that are directly opposed to mine. I am on the liberal side, they on the conservative. I hear all the same "code word", thinly disguised racial remarks and all that and, like you, it bothers me a great deal, but I let it go 97% of the time. So, In general, I just avoid all political discussions with family. I know I ican't change their opinions and they won't change mine. It is a zero-sum game and pointless to engage in the conversation. I have learned there are better places to argue points with people who may be willing to listen. My conservative relatives simply are not those people.
I appreciate a bit more family harmony than I do engaging in a discussion that will clearly cause friction in the family. There are plenty of people who are not my family that I can get into a crazy argument with who I also do not have to share family events with. However, I also know that should they really choose to engage me and push the issue, I will rip them a new asshole (verbally of course). I think they know that too. So we all sort of "pre-truce" the whole thing.
I also use my Facebook wall to put out a whole slew of standard "Conservatives Are Idiots" posts, so it is not like they don't know the score. It is a bit passive-agreessive, but it also let's me put out there my opinion without them feeling compelled to respond.
Again...with the family, its a zero-sum game. At least in my world.
posted by lampshade at 7:20 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Most of my immediate family have views that are directly opposed to mine. I am on the liberal side, they on the conservative. I hear all the same "code word", thinly disguised racial remarks and all that and, like you, it bothers me a great deal, but I let it go 97% of the time. So, In general, I just avoid all political discussions with family. I know I ican't change their opinions and they won't change mine. It is a zero-sum game and pointless to engage in the conversation. I have learned there are better places to argue points with people who may be willing to listen. My conservative relatives simply are not those people.
I appreciate a bit more family harmony than I do engaging in a discussion that will clearly cause friction in the family. There are plenty of people who are not my family that I can get into a crazy argument with who I also do not have to share family events with. However, I also know that should they really choose to engage me and push the issue, I will rip them a new asshole (verbally of course). I think they know that too. So we all sort of "pre-truce" the whole thing.
I also use my Facebook wall to put out a whole slew of standard "Conservatives Are Idiots" posts, so it is not like they don't know the score. It is a bit passive-agreessive, but it also let's me put out there my opinion without them feeling compelled to respond.
Again...with the family, its a zero-sum game. At least in my world.
posted by lampshade at 7:20 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Maybe you could consider that the thought of losing a child in such an inexplicable way is so traumatic that she has to compartmentalize it as a special case. Maybe she's not saying that the Martin family is getting special treatment, exactly, but that her pain would not be equally validated. She's a mom--she has probably rehearsed every possible scenario for how she would cope with your death since the day you were born. If she's not a fan of the current president, or feels slighted by government in general, I can see how she could come to the conclusion she has. That doesn't make it not mean or thoughtless, but just maybe consider that for a mom, this probably touches a lot of nerves that fire all at once and get confusing.
I like Mercredi's suggestion. Be kind, be positive, offer another way of looking at it, and let it go. Or just something like, "Mom, I love you. May you never have to find out whether you're right about this."
(Also, not supporting hate crime legislation doesn't necessarily make you a racist. I won't hijack the thread by going into this now--but be assured that there are a lot of people of good will and friendship toward all who are uncomfortable by making hate itself a crime. Feel free to memail me if you'd like to take that tangential debate offthread.)
posted by elizeh at 7:28 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
I like Mercredi's suggestion. Be kind, be positive, offer another way of looking at it, and let it go. Or just something like, "Mom, I love you. May you never have to find out whether you're right about this."
(Also, not supporting hate crime legislation doesn't necessarily make you a racist. I won't hijack the thread by going into this now--but be assured that there are a lot of people of good will and friendship toward all who are uncomfortable by making hate itself a crime. Feel free to memail me if you'd like to take that tangential debate offthread.)
posted by elizeh at 7:28 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I understand the good faith controversy over hate crime laws. I can guarantee my mother had no opinion on the matter prior to a week ago.
posted by downing street memo at 7:29 PM on March 26, 2012
posted by downing street memo at 7:29 PM on March 26, 2012
Just remove her from your flist.
posted by spunweb at 7:32 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by spunweb at 7:32 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
I dealt with this kind of thing on my own Facebook page today with a family member. I politely asked why my posted article about the history of the war on women's rights was called rubbish. They will not respond and I refrain from commenting on their Rush Limbaugh loving posts. The discussion would go nowhere good. If I need to let off steam about them, I call a family member who will agree with me about what a nut they are. Works for me.
posted by cairnoflore at 7:37 PM on March 26, 2012
posted by cairnoflore at 7:37 PM on March 26, 2012
I can guarantee my mother had no opinion on the matter prior to a week ago.
How do you know? You say you respect different points of view, but you don't seem to be applying that to your mother. Try taking her seriously. She may have a valid point. Nothing you've mentioned is intrinsically "hateful." Just because someone has an unexpected take on a news story doesn't mean they have sinister motives. Also, why are you wasting a single second of your life worrying about how many "likes" something gets on Facebook?
posted by John Cohen at 7:38 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
How do you know? You say you respect different points of view, but you don't seem to be applying that to your mother. Try taking her seriously. She may have a valid point. Nothing you've mentioned is intrinsically "hateful." Just because someone has an unexpected take on a news story doesn't mean they have sinister motives. Also, why are you wasting a single second of your life worrying about how many "likes" something gets on Facebook?
posted by John Cohen at 7:38 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Facebook has caused no end of issues in my family - well, not caused, but maybe illuminated. I've handled it by removing them from my newsfeed and essentially forgetting about their pages. I don't even bother to look at their pages and if they ask, I just tell them I must have missed their post.
Facebook has made it too hard to pretend my family is sane and normal which makes me sad. I liked pretending they aren't batshit crazy.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:41 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]
Facebook has made it too hard to pretend my family is sane and normal which makes me sad. I liked pretending they aren't batshit crazy.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:41 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]
Call this shit out. Facebook is possibly the one venue where you can respond to this type of attitude with citations and links easily and where people can't run away from their statements - because their name is attached! Politely ignoring behavior just makes the poster think that their attitudes are okay.
This will probably cost you some Facebook friends, but fuck it, life's too short to not speak your mind.
posted by Benjy at 7:45 PM on March 26, 2012 [8 favorites]
This will probably cost you some Facebook friends, but fuck it, life's too short to not speak your mind.
posted by Benjy at 7:45 PM on March 26, 2012 [8 favorites]
You've been employing a passive-aggressive strategy, but it doesn't seem to be working for you. I see two options: either becoming engaged in an active fight, or withdrawing using the approach Brandon Blatcher suggests. I have a friend who is constantly engaged in Facebook battles with relatives, exchanging rapid-fire posts and counterposts. He feels he is morally obligated to fight, even if he is unlikely ever to change his relatives' minds. While such fights upset him, they also energize him. Other people feel as lampshade does: family harmony is more important than engaging in an unwinnable war, and battles are destructive. I wouldn't' say either choice is the "correct" one. You have to decide which would work better for you. I would suggest that your preoccupation today is a sign that you need to change your current approach.
posted by DrMew at 7:48 PM on March 26, 2012
posted by DrMew at 7:48 PM on March 26, 2012
Response by poster: John Cohen, it's not about Facebook, it's about being confronted with the idiotic, and yes, hateful beliefs of my own family.
Yes, "look at those blacks getting special treatment" after their innocent teenage son is shot and killed is hateful. It's not an "unexpected take on a news story", worthy of consideration like, for instance, opinions about top marginal tax rates.
Promise I won't threadsit further, but needed to get that out.
posted by downing street memo at 7:48 PM on March 26, 2012 [11 favorites]
Yes, "look at those blacks getting special treatment" after their innocent teenage son is shot and killed is hateful. It's not an "unexpected take on a news story", worthy of consideration like, for instance, opinions about top marginal tax rates.
Promise I won't threadsit further, but needed to get that out.
posted by downing street memo at 7:48 PM on March 26, 2012 [11 favorites]
How about a comment to the status update that says, "Please don't use me as a hypothetical in an attempt to minimize this tragedy or diminish the problem of racism. My heart goes out to the Martin family."
posted by alphanerd at 7:54 PM on March 26, 2012 [29 favorites]
posted by alphanerd at 7:54 PM on March 26, 2012 [29 favorites]
Something to remember is that maybe you spend more time thinking about certain things than your mom does. Heck, maybe you're just plain smarter than she is, or your life experiences have helped you develop and practice critical thinking skills better than hers have. Maybe you're better at empathizing than she is. Maybe we're all just products of our times and she grew up in a totally different world than you did. That's all OK and you can still be friends with her if you want to. You can also not be friends with her, if that's what you want.
If you want to talk about this certain thing with her, maybe you can, but for god's sake don't do it on facebook. Do it in person where you can look at each other and spend some time lovingly trying to understand.
How do you deal with this?
I don't use facebook. You see, it encourages every person, no matter how shallow their thinking at the moment, to say whatever crosses their mind.
The level of discourse is higher in person, on the phone, and in email, because those all require that the person say the particular thing to you instead of just flinging it out for all the world to see when they're bored at work. If you want to talk to your mom about complex emotional things like this shooting, do. If you don't, then isolate yourself from her day-to-day thoughts that, before facebook, would have just been private.
posted by fritley at 8:03 PM on March 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
If you want to talk about this certain thing with her, maybe you can, but for god's sake don't do it on facebook. Do it in person where you can look at each other and spend some time lovingly trying to understand.
How do you deal with this?
I don't use facebook. You see, it encourages every person, no matter how shallow their thinking at the moment, to say whatever crosses their mind.
The level of discourse is higher in person, on the phone, and in email, because those all require that the person say the particular thing to you instead of just flinging it out for all the world to see when they're bored at work. If you want to talk to your mom about complex emotional things like this shooting, do. If you don't, then isolate yourself from her day-to-day thoughts that, before facebook, would have just been private.
posted by fritley at 8:03 PM on March 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
Most of the time, I deal with it in Facebook specifically by hiding the post itself (not the whole person unless they are just a distant acquaintance) and this is not just limited to political BS but to anything that bothers me and is likely to get comments.
In person, if it bothers me enough, I engage them one-on-one and have a personal talk about the specific thing they posted or forwarded (attacking their whole belief system will not end well). I did this with my mother about an insulting Obama email. I refuted many of the facts and also asked that she not send me this crap because I have never forwarded any anti-conservative crap to her. That hit home and she apologized. If you post blanket anti-conservative stuff you don't have that card to play, obviously.
Further, you could post one positive, inclusive, liberal message for every one of these that you see. Not a specific counterpoint, but a general one or one that is unrelated. In your own way, you are evening the score.
posted by soelo at 8:04 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
In person, if it bothers me enough, I engage them one-on-one and have a personal talk about the specific thing they posted or forwarded (attacking their whole belief system will not end well). I did this with my mother about an insulting Obama email. I refuted many of the facts and also asked that she not send me this crap because I have never forwarded any anti-conservative crap to her. That hit home and she apologized. If you post blanket anti-conservative stuff you don't have that card to play, obviously.
Further, you could post one positive, inclusive, liberal message for every one of these that you see. Not a specific counterpoint, but a general one or one that is unrelated. In your own way, you are evening the score.
posted by soelo at 8:04 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Hey Mom, which would you rather have; a child who is still alive, or a phone call from the president? I hadn't realized it was a competition.".
(I am very passive-aggressive, but I usually don't post what goes through my mind!)
posted by Joh at 8:15 PM on March 26, 2012 [12 favorites]
(I am very passive-aggressive, but I usually don't post what goes through my mind!)
posted by Joh at 8:15 PM on March 26, 2012 [12 favorites]
It might not be too confrontational to respond with something like:
'Don't worry mom, since I'm white, I'm much less likely to be shot by a racist vigilante.
On the other hand, I could die of embarrassment over the things my own dear mother says sometimes.'
posted by jamjam at 8:19 PM on March 26, 2012 [24 favorites]
'Don't worry mom, since I'm white, I'm much less likely to be shot by a racist vigilante.
On the other hand, I could die of embarrassment over the things my own dear mother says sometimes.'
posted by jamjam at 8:19 PM on March 26, 2012 [24 favorites]
Praise the good to reinforce it, and try to ignore the bad: Awwww, Mom, thanks for worrying about me. Fortunately, I'm not likely to be stalked and murdered by a racist vigilante, so I think you can rest easy. Maybe in person you can say What's up with that, Mom? and talk about race.
posted by theora55 at 8:27 PM on March 26, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 8:27 PM on March 26, 2012 [5 favorites]
This is an incredibly difficult situation, but I don't think calling your Mom out on a public forum will help all that much. It certainly won't change her mind and, if anything, it will polarize you even more. Is it possible to just talk with her about it? Probe her thinking a bit and maybe offer her a perspective that might change her mind? Since this is unexpected from her, I think you actually have the power to make a difference here, and, even if she sticks by her original statement, you will probably feel better having tried. Also, she brought you into it by mentioning your hypothetical death, so regardless of how the conversation goes, you would be totally within bounds to request that she not mention you when making political comments on Facebook. Best of luck!
posted by katemcd at 8:37 PM on March 26, 2012
posted by katemcd at 8:37 PM on March 26, 2012
Seconding jamjam's recommendation.
I personally would have some sharp words, but it's your mum so I guess saying "get back to me when you've been profiled for being white and suspicious" would be rather inappropriate.
posted by Ashen at 9:34 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
I personally would have some sharp words, but it's your mum so I guess saying "get back to me when you've been profiled for being white and suspicious" would be rather inappropriate.
posted by Ashen at 9:34 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Mom, I don't think you raised me to politicize what a mother goes through when her son is dead. I hope you're thinking of Mrs. Martin with the same kindness you'd want from her if I were killed and no one were arrested for it. Someday I'll have kids, and I hope when they see this permanent record of your thoughts that they see your character as you'd want them to learn from you, just as you've taught me to behave in public."
posted by anildash at 9:48 PM on March 26, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by anildash at 9:48 PM on March 26, 2012 [6 favorites]
It sounds like you want to keep a relationship with your mom and extended family, but I allow me to point some things out...
- "Your handle is "downing street memo," -- most people, including your mom, don't even know what that is.
- This alone is fundamental grounds for any lack of guilt over any response you have towards your mom, right there. INNOCENT people have been brutally killed on both sides (mostly theirs) for reasons unacceptable to civilized and conscientious humans. Full stop.
- The racist thing is simply a by-product of a deeper failure on your mom's (and family's) part to connect with their own individual humanity. It's hard NOT to see how we are all connected, how our well-being depends on our neighbor's well-being - both locally and globally. Fundamentally, people like your mom believe that they are "safe" because others suffer or are eliminated altogether (killed/murdered.)
Really. Think about that.
-----
There are two main schools of thought here - freeze them out entirely because they are not worth arguing with, or try to stay friendly with them and be kindly towards them, in the hope you will positively influence them.
----
Giant run-on sentences to follow, sorry...
My Dad didn't have the best track record with me, politically, but I more or less stayed in touch with him through the years until he made jokes, repeatedly, about another family member who had struggled emotionally and financially over many years, and partly down to his actions towards them. His choices in terms of this reflected his deeper beliefs, which were absolutely vile IMHE, and I was so glad he buggered off on his own, by hanging up the phone on me, despite my last words to him being, "No one begrudges you the happy family or financial success you have, but X dealt with ABC adversities their whole life, and you did "D" making that worse, so I'm not sure how you expect X to be doing well in life now."
Again, my comment was in response to him making jokes at the expense of another family member, and his expectation that I would laugh along and approve of him kicking someone who is already disadvantaged.
He and I will never speak again. I'm AWESOME for that - I will never have to parse or mitigate this man's fuckery towards others to my (recently) newborn son, or my lovely husband. I'm supporting a better future for ALL with this choice. I like that.
---
Either way is right. Likely there will be a Push/Shove deciding moment - only you know if this is it.
posted by jbenben at 10:58 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
- "Your handle is "downing street memo," -- most people, including your mom, don't even know what that is.
- This alone is fundamental grounds for any lack of guilt over any response you have towards your mom, right there. INNOCENT people have been brutally killed on both sides (mostly theirs) for reasons unacceptable to civilized and conscientious humans. Full stop.
- The racist thing is simply a by-product of a deeper failure on your mom's (and family's) part to connect with their own individual humanity. It's hard NOT to see how we are all connected, how our well-being depends on our neighbor's well-being - both locally and globally. Fundamentally, people like your mom believe that they are "safe" because others suffer or are eliminated altogether (killed/murdered.)
Really. Think about that.
-----
There are two main schools of thought here - freeze them out entirely because they are not worth arguing with, or try to stay friendly with them and be kindly towards them, in the hope you will positively influence them.
----
Giant run-on sentences to follow, sorry...
My Dad didn't have the best track record with me, politically, but I more or less stayed in touch with him through the years until he made jokes, repeatedly, about another family member who had struggled emotionally and financially over many years, and partly down to his actions towards them. His choices in terms of this reflected his deeper beliefs, which were absolutely vile IMHE, and I was so glad he buggered off on his own, by hanging up the phone on me, despite my last words to him being, "No one begrudges you the happy family or financial success you have, but X dealt with ABC adversities their whole life, and you did "D" making that worse, so I'm not sure how you expect X to be doing well in life now."
Again, my comment was in response to him making jokes at the expense of another family member, and his expectation that I would laugh along and approve of him kicking someone who is already disadvantaged.
He and I will never speak again. I'm AWESOME for that - I will never have to parse or mitigate this man's fuckery towards others to my (recently) newborn son, or my lovely husband. I'm supporting a better future for ALL with this choice. I like that.
---
Either way is right. Likely there will be a Push/Shove deciding moment - only you know if this is it.
posted by jbenben at 10:58 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is it possible to explain it gently and, even if ignored, feel as though you have made a peace? E.g. Actually, the president did not call Trayvon Martin's mother. He called Sandra Fluke, someone else who is actually white. And, as to Martin's death, it seems that the shooter has a history of targeting black people. And, since similar experiences have happened too often to other black people, it makes people feel upset and angry and sad about Martin's death. It doesn't mean that people mourn less the deaths of other children. And then ignore any responses. Probably easier said than done.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:03 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:03 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yes, "look at those blacks getting special treatment" after their innocent teenage son is shot and killed is hateful.
It doesn't sound like your mother said that. It would be nice to clarify with her whether she even meant that before you go leaping to conclusions.
posted by parrot_person at 1:12 AM on March 27, 2012
It doesn't sound like your mother said that. It would be nice to clarify with her whether she even meant that before you go leaping to conclusions.
posted by parrot_person at 1:12 AM on March 27, 2012
I get very stressed out by encountering beliefs that I find ignorant or hateful. I tend to filter out my media sources to minimise my exposure to people who say things like that. e.g., I will never read the comments section of even a respected liberal news source like The Guardian for fear of coming across comments that make me want to rip off my face. (Examples!)
So as a general rule I would advise you to filter your media accordingly. You can't do much about the hateful views of a bunch of strangers.
But this is your mother. So I can understand the difficulty. You could just hide her from your Facebook feed, but you could, on the other hand, call her out. Either on Facebook, which would be quite embarrassing (for her), or in person. That bit depends on the kind of relationship you have with her. (Personally I like jamjam's sweet but scathing comment.)
I would recommend you call her out in some way. You have more of a chance of influencing your mother than you have of influencing a bunch of strangers with horrible views. And if one person thinks harder about their behaviour because of you, then that's good in my opinion.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:25 AM on March 27, 2012
So as a general rule I would advise you to filter your media accordingly. You can't do much about the hateful views of a bunch of strangers.
But this is your mother. So I can understand the difficulty. You could just hide her from your Facebook feed, but you could, on the other hand, call her out. Either on Facebook, which would be quite embarrassing (for her), or in person. That bit depends on the kind of relationship you have with her. (Personally I like jamjam's sweet but scathing comment.)
I would recommend you call her out in some way. You have more of a chance of influencing your mother than you have of influencing a bunch of strangers with horrible views. And if one person thinks harder about their behaviour because of you, then that's good in my opinion.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:25 AM on March 27, 2012
I have been dealing with this in my 87 year old grandfather. He just loves all that Fox News stuff. There are only two possible options (with varying degrees in each):
1- Ignore it. They are under the spell of a cult, and you can't compete. "You might be right, I haven't done as much research as you. How 'bout this weather?"
2- Be even more well-informed than they are. With a caveat: on their playing field. The right wing media is VERY adept at providing debate points for their viewers. They can win casual debates because they have more "facts" at their disposal by virtue of having paid more attention than you did. To counteract this, you have to not only pay attention to what their weekly propaganda topics are, you have to then do the research to figure out what the fatal flaw in the argument is. They are also very good at conflating two issues. Hannity in particular is great at this. He (for example) will be discussing the Trayvon shooting, but for some reason keep referring to the Sandra Fluke call, and before long it gets very hard to tell the difference between the two.
So, in this case, your mom might be primed with all kinds of "facts" and retorts about the Trayvon case that lead the discussion down a path where she can "win", but without having done your research, you wouldn't know that the President apparently didn't telephone his mother. If you knew that, you could nip it in the bud and it would be over: "he didn't call her, your source is lying to you". If you didn't know that, you get sucked into the argument on her (Fox News') terms.
Neither is easy, and I despise them for ruining the great relationship I had with my grandfather. The last vein-popper at Christmas was marginal tax rates. The guy can do Calculus in his head, but they have him so muddled up with the socialist BS that his intellect gets turned off. As then mine does. Enraging. But that's my baggage...
As for Facebook, just click the x on the offensive posts.
posted by gjc at 3:18 AM on March 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
1- Ignore it. They are under the spell of a cult, and you can't compete. "You might be right, I haven't done as much research as you. How 'bout this weather?"
2- Be even more well-informed than they are. With a caveat: on their playing field. The right wing media is VERY adept at providing debate points for their viewers. They can win casual debates because they have more "facts" at their disposal by virtue of having paid more attention than you did. To counteract this, you have to not only pay attention to what their weekly propaganda topics are, you have to then do the research to figure out what the fatal flaw in the argument is. They are also very good at conflating two issues. Hannity in particular is great at this. He (for example) will be discussing the Trayvon shooting, but for some reason keep referring to the Sandra Fluke call, and before long it gets very hard to tell the difference between the two.
So, in this case, your mom might be primed with all kinds of "facts" and retorts about the Trayvon case that lead the discussion down a path where she can "win", but without having done your research, you wouldn't know that the President apparently didn't telephone his mother. If you knew that, you could nip it in the bud and it would be over: "he didn't call her, your source is lying to you". If you didn't know that, you get sucked into the argument on her (Fox News') terms.
Neither is easy, and I despise them for ruining the great relationship I had with my grandfather. The last vein-popper at Christmas was marginal tax rates. The guy can do Calculus in his head, but they have him so muddled up with the socialist BS that his intellect gets turned off. As then mine does. Enraging. But that's my baggage...
As for Facebook, just click the x on the offensive posts.
posted by gjc at 3:18 AM on March 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
It's the passivity, laziness and sarcasm of your mom's comments that bothers you, or at least that bothers me. Whether you agree with her or not she is not writing anything worthwhile and makes response difficult. If she wrote something articulate and well-reasoned about the situation that you disagreed with, you could respond likewise. Since she's not, your options are to "overreact" to a couple quips with lengthy analysis (up to you whether that will work -- for my family it would be well received not on Facebook but in email or the next family dinner), respond with quips of your own (furthers the passivity) or tune it out by changing Faceook settings etc. until the Martin case blows over.
posted by michaelh at 5:47 AM on March 27, 2012
posted by michaelh at 5:47 AM on March 27, 2012
I guess I'm not totally clear on what your desired outcome is here.
Do you want to not be plagued by vile right-wing bullshit on your news feed? Block the offending parties, or tinker with the settings and have them show up only for "more important" updates. (I have a rolling list of people I keep blocked, and keep vowing that I'm going to get around to finishing the GreaseMonkey script that auto-blocks users based on a blacklist of words. This would mostly be useful so that I would be able to say "oh, yeah, look at that, you're blocked, the filter must have caught you" after I manually block someone I don't want to deal with on Facebook but have real-life obligations with)
Do you want to win this particular argument with your mom? You will never win this fight with your mom. You have started by letting her (which by proxy means 'right-wing talk radio') define the terms of the argument in such a way that all you can do is scream into the abyss, and you will never convince someone that their opinion is 'racist' by arguing objective facts.
Do you want to prevent your relatives from doing this kind of drive-by political philosophizing in the future? I have actually been fairly successful in doing this with my very-right-wing parents, but my method depends very much on the players involved. The short version: when a news cycle suggests that a particular vile right-wing-talking-point (ideally one you think the relative in question knows nothing about aside from the Hannity talking points) is going to be brought up the next time you're going to be at a family gathering (this has to be done in-person for maximum effect--Facebook walls attract enthusiasts on either side, which is not who your intended audience is here), you prepare yourself for it the way you'd prepare for the same debate in an academic setting. You do your political/legal/sociological/historical homework, and make absolutely sure that you're prepared for the three or four most likely opening statements with meticulously-researched rebuttals. And then you try to subtly goad your target into dropping what s/he thinks is a cunningly-worded bon mot about it into a conversation in mixed company. And then you let slip the dogs of war. You ask why anyone would ever possibly think that, when ${ARCANE_POLITICAL THEORY} and ${SUPREME_COURT_DISSENT} so clearly show otherwise. Every time you get a talking point back, you either dismantle it on its merits, or you dismiss it as arrogantly as you can with a straight argument from authority ("${19TH_CENTURY_POLITICAL PHILOSOPHER} dismissed that as hokum a hundred and fifty years ago; we're not doing this again"). You're not actual trying to win on content, you're trying to overwhelm with sources, and (crucially) you're trying to make the entire experience as uncomfortable as possible for everyone in earshot. The subtext of every sentence coming out of your mouth is "this is an incredibly stupid thing for you to say, and I can't believe I'm actually stuck pointing out this litany of sources who disagree vehemently with it." (MetaFilter is an extremely useful resource for this, as there are lots of multiply-favorited responses in some of the political threads in which really smart people say what you want to say very eloquently; I crib from MeFi all the time) It's actually pretty tough to do this for any length of time--it's probably one of your parents you're doing this to, everyone in the room is going to be glaring at you for being such an indefatigable social derelict, and most of us left-of-center folks are apt to try to reconcile points with the people they're arguing with rather then go for the kill-shot. You've got to stick with it until the other side backs down, though. They won't concede the argument to you outright, but someone will almost always change the subject once you've made things unpleasant enough.
Anyway, after you do this a couple of times, you'll generate enough family-pressure that the relative in question won't feel comfortable bringing political subjects up in mixed company, and if you've done your homework, you''ll probably also have convinced him/her that if he/she tries bringing up any more stupid Limbaugh talking points, you'll eviscerate them for it. This will either result in an unspoken agreement not to talk about anything political, or it will get you written out of the will and uninvited to family events. Like I said, it depends on the audience.
posted by Mayor West at 6:09 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Do you want to not be plagued by vile right-wing bullshit on your news feed? Block the offending parties, or tinker with the settings and have them show up only for "more important" updates. (I have a rolling list of people I keep blocked, and keep vowing that I'm going to get around to finishing the GreaseMonkey script that auto-blocks users based on a blacklist of words. This would mostly be useful so that I would be able to say "oh, yeah, look at that, you're blocked, the filter must have caught you" after I manually block someone I don't want to deal with on Facebook but have real-life obligations with)
Do you want to win this particular argument with your mom? You will never win this fight with your mom. You have started by letting her (which by proxy means 'right-wing talk radio') define the terms of the argument in such a way that all you can do is scream into the abyss, and you will never convince someone that their opinion is 'racist' by arguing objective facts.
Do you want to prevent your relatives from doing this kind of drive-by political philosophizing in the future? I have actually been fairly successful in doing this with my very-right-wing parents, but my method depends very much on the players involved. The short version: when a news cycle suggests that a particular vile right-wing-talking-point (ideally one you think the relative in question knows nothing about aside from the Hannity talking points) is going to be brought up the next time you're going to be at a family gathering (this has to be done in-person for maximum effect--Facebook walls attract enthusiasts on either side, which is not who your intended audience is here), you prepare yourself for it the way you'd prepare for the same debate in an academic setting. You do your political/legal/sociological/historical homework, and make absolutely sure that you're prepared for the three or four most likely opening statements with meticulously-researched rebuttals. And then you try to subtly goad your target into dropping what s/he thinks is a cunningly-worded bon mot about it into a conversation in mixed company. And then you let slip the dogs of war. You ask why anyone would ever possibly think that, when ${ARCANE_POLITICAL THEORY} and ${SUPREME_COURT_DISSENT} so clearly show otherwise. Every time you get a talking point back, you either dismantle it on its merits, or you dismiss it as arrogantly as you can with a straight argument from authority ("${19TH_CENTURY_POLITICAL PHILOSOPHER} dismissed that as hokum a hundred and fifty years ago; we're not doing this again"). You're not actual trying to win on content, you're trying to overwhelm with sources, and (crucially) you're trying to make the entire experience as uncomfortable as possible for everyone in earshot. The subtext of every sentence coming out of your mouth is "this is an incredibly stupid thing for you to say, and I can't believe I'm actually stuck pointing out this litany of sources who disagree vehemently with it." (MetaFilter is an extremely useful resource for this, as there are lots of multiply-favorited responses in some of the political threads in which really smart people say what you want to say very eloquently; I crib from MeFi all the time) It's actually pretty tough to do this for any length of time--it's probably one of your parents you're doing this to, everyone in the room is going to be glaring at you for being such an indefatigable social derelict, and most of us left-of-center folks are apt to try to reconcile points with the people they're arguing with rather then go for the kill-shot. You've got to stick with it until the other side backs down, though. They won't concede the argument to you outright, but someone will almost always change the subject once you've made things unpleasant enough.
Anyway, after you do this a couple of times, you'll generate enough family-pressure that the relative in question won't feel comfortable bringing political subjects up in mixed company, and if you've done your homework, you''ll probably also have convinced him/her that if he/she tries bringing up any more stupid Limbaugh talking points, you'll eviscerate them for it. This will either result in an unspoken agreement not to talk about anything political, or it will get you written out of the will and uninvited to family events. Like I said, it depends on the audience.
posted by Mayor West at 6:09 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh, Facebook. Facebook Facebook Facebook.
I heard a sound bite the other day, something like "Twitter lets you love people you don't even know; Facebook makes you hate people you've loved all your life." It's kind of true.
People's interactions with the Facebook medium are not necessarily indicative of who they are. Your mom is listening to talk radio or Fox News (I would bet anything in the world) and those words were flitting through her mind as she sat down at the computer, that's all. You do not have to engage with her on Facebook to fight racism. If you want to talk with her in person, in earnest, about how disturbing this case has been and how appalled you've been by the Fox talking points, fine; but not on Facebook. Nobody is thinking when they sit down to post or read their feed.
You don't need to read your mom's FB feed to love her. In fact, you probably shouldn't read her feed at all. You can unsubscribe from it without unfriending her. Do that. Yes, it's unfortunate that she's adding her voice to the idiot chorus, but FB is not the place to engage with it; it won't do any good, and it will distress both of you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:32 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I heard a sound bite the other day, something like "Twitter lets you love people you don't even know; Facebook makes you hate people you've loved all your life." It's kind of true.
People's interactions with the Facebook medium are not necessarily indicative of who they are. Your mom is listening to talk radio or Fox News (I would bet anything in the world) and those words were flitting through her mind as she sat down at the computer, that's all. You do not have to engage with her on Facebook to fight racism. If you want to talk with her in person, in earnest, about how disturbing this case has been and how appalled you've been by the Fox talking points, fine; but not on Facebook. Nobody is thinking when they sit down to post or read their feed.
You don't need to read your mom's FB feed to love her. In fact, you probably shouldn't read her feed at all. You can unsubscribe from it without unfriending her. Do that. Yes, it's unfortunate that she's adding her voice to the idiot chorus, but FB is not the place to engage with it; it won't do any good, and it will distress both of you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:32 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Call it out. I love it when our right wing relatives post crap like this to my SO and I's comments. A tirade of liberal pile on usually occurs from people in our circles, and it's glorious to watch. The only way these people are going to change is if they get educated or die.
posted by Big_B at 9:52 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Big_B at 9:52 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm with the "educate their asses" camp.
I totally get why some people would decide that the path of least resistance is the right one, but if you can be extra articulate and extra CALM (the hardest part, sometimes), you might strike the right note. It's possible. People can change.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 10:44 AM on March 27, 2012
I totally get why some people would decide that the path of least resistance is the right one, but if you can be extra articulate and extra CALM (the hardest part, sometimes), you might strike the right note. It's possible. People can change.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 10:44 AM on March 27, 2012
Try hard not to take it personally. I have asked a similar question in the past here on AskMe. What I learned (not soon enough) is that no matter how informed you are, no matter how intelligent your talking points, you will not change your mother's mind. Do not try. I wouldn't get into a political battle with your parent. No matter how cunning or sophisticated.
This is an emotional subject for your mom and she chose to post about it. Good people say mean things. We get emotional and we make mistakes. It can be disturbing when our parents speak and believe as they do but it is not our job to change their minds or to moralize. Rachel Maddow said the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. I'm not suggesting that you become indifferent or excuse or justify her remark. There is something wise about letting this kind of thing (comments on Facebook) go in one ear and out the other. Why torture yourself? Since this is your mother I do think it would be wise to not become indignant. For your sanity, remember the positive qualities about your mom. Appreciate the good and ignore the bad. This is what your friends and family do with you.
posted by Fairchild at 12:56 PM on March 27, 2012
This is an emotional subject for your mom and she chose to post about it. Good people say mean things. We get emotional and we make mistakes. It can be disturbing when our parents speak and believe as they do but it is not our job to change their minds or to moralize. Rachel Maddow said the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. I'm not suggesting that you become indifferent or excuse or justify her remark. There is something wise about letting this kind of thing (comments on Facebook) go in one ear and out the other. Why torture yourself? Since this is your mother I do think it would be wise to not become indignant. For your sanity, remember the positive qualities about your mom. Appreciate the good and ignore the bad. This is what your friends and family do with you.
posted by Fairchild at 12:56 PM on March 27, 2012
Hey there,
I'm in exactly the opposite situation––I'm conservative, family and friends liberal.
I used to be very liberal, too. I can tell you that both sides see themselves as in the right. Both have ample facts and arguments on their side. Both sides ignore the facts and arguments of the opposition, or reinterpret them to make them sound more ridiculous than they are. Generally speaking, the more informed someone is about politics, the more polarized their viewpoint is––because they care.
I can tell you that everything you've said here applies going in the other direction. Once people think you're a "racist" or "Nazi" or "ignorant" the discussion, as a rational discussion, is over. It's now a dominance contest and mostly depends on how you carry yourself and how they carry themselves.
Honestly I don't spend that much time on facebook. I would recommend that you don't either. If you want to start an argument about this kind of thing, educate yourself on what the opposition thinks. Otherwise you're just starting another dominance contest.
Also, if learning what they actually think makes you want to vomit, maybe it's bad for your mental health to engage in a debate about it. Just a thought!
posted by mekko at 1:24 PM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm in exactly the opposite situation––I'm conservative, family and friends liberal.
I used to be very liberal, too. I can tell you that both sides see themselves as in the right. Both have ample facts and arguments on their side. Both sides ignore the facts and arguments of the opposition, or reinterpret them to make them sound more ridiculous than they are. Generally speaking, the more informed someone is about politics, the more polarized their viewpoint is––because they care.
I can tell you that everything you've said here applies going in the other direction. Once people think you're a "racist" or "Nazi" or "ignorant" the discussion, as a rational discussion, is over. It's now a dominance contest and mostly depends on how you carry yourself and how they carry themselves.
Honestly I don't spend that much time on facebook. I would recommend that you don't either. If you want to start an argument about this kind of thing, educate yourself on what the opposition thinks. Otherwise you're just starting another dominance contest.
Also, if learning what they actually think makes you want to vomit, maybe it's bad for your mental health to engage in a debate about it. Just a thought!
posted by mekko at 1:24 PM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is this a question of liberal vs. conservative? I think the OP was referring to some particularly racist, hateful, and factually incorrect comments a family member made, so I'm not sure boiling this down to "oh, it's just a difference in political viewpoints" is accurate. The OP could also be a conservative and be very offended by these racist, hateful, and factually incorrect comments.
posted by lillygog at 5:53 AM on March 28, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by lillygog at 5:53 AM on March 28, 2012 [4 favorites]
racist, hateful, and factually incorrect
Precisely. Passing this kind of moral judgment, on a stray comment that hurts your feelings, is not conducive to changing someone's mind or having a debate. Especially if you've decided (as most people, on any side, decide) that the opposition is totally wrong and stupid.
Within those limitations, the OP can spar with his mother (either in person or on facebook), figure out the opposition's arguments and how to answer them, ignore those posts, or some combination of the three.
Being offended doesn't give him any moral high ground. Imagine if someone posted how "My mother's defending that hussy Sandra Fluke on facebook. It makes me so offended I can't breathe. How can I deal with that?"
posted by mekko at 11:20 AM on March 28, 2012
Precisely. Passing this kind of moral judgment, on a stray comment that hurts your feelings, is not conducive to changing someone's mind or having a debate. Especially if you've decided (as most people, on any side, decide) that the opposition is totally wrong and stupid.
Within those limitations, the OP can spar with his mother (either in person or on facebook), figure out the opposition's arguments and how to answer them, ignore those posts, or some combination of the three.
Being offended doesn't give him any moral high ground. Imagine if someone posted how "My mother's defending that hussy Sandra Fluke on facebook. It makes me so offended I can't breathe. How can I deal with that?"
posted by mekko at 11:20 AM on March 28, 2012
Is pointing out a factual inaccuracy really a moral judgment? Are we just going to decide that this is a liberal vs. conservative argument? In other words, my suggestion to the poster, as well as to mekko, would be to remove the right vs. left aspect and talk about factual accuracy and kind vs hateful speech. "Mom, that's not actually what happened, and while I appreciate that you care about me I don't think we should use Treyvon Martin to have a political argument, as I'm sure his family is in pain."
Then disengage, disengage, disengage. This is I think similar to anildash's approach. I can also see the appeal of the approach that engages the argument, but YMMV with family context.
I think the Sandra Fluke comment shows that I was either inarticulate or you're missing my point.
posted by lillygog at 7:25 PM on March 28, 2012
Then disengage, disengage, disengage. This is I think similar to anildash's approach. I can also see the appeal of the approach that engages the argument, but YMMV with family context.
I think the Sandra Fluke comment shows that I was either inarticulate or you're missing my point.
posted by lillygog at 7:25 PM on March 28, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mercredi at 7:01 PM on March 26, 2012 [26 favorites]