Can this friendship be saved?
March 24, 2012 7:37 AM Subscribe
Can this friendship be saved? My friend told me about sleeping with a guy in a relationship and I can't stop feeling sick about it.
A close friend of mine slept with a guy who has a girlfriend. They are not in an open relationship. My friend isn't interested in this guy except as a friend and sex partner. She says that it's not a good relationship and that if he were happy with his gf he wouldn't seek her out.
I feel awful. On a visceral level I feel as if I've been sucker-punched. We've been through a lot together but now I feel cold and closed off. She says she's hurt that I'm being so judgmental but I just don't want to talk or see her right now. I feel terrible at the thought of ending our friendship but just writing or thinking about the situation makes my gut churn.
Generally I am quite liberal, listen to Dan Savage, etc. I'm even surprised myself at my reaction. Is there any way I can move beyond this and be friends again? Please keep in mind this is a gut thing and not something I can logic my way out of.
Thoughts? Advice?
A close friend of mine slept with a guy who has a girlfriend. They are not in an open relationship. My friend isn't interested in this guy except as a friend and sex partner. She says that it's not a good relationship and that if he were happy with his gf he wouldn't seek her out.
I feel awful. On a visceral level I feel as if I've been sucker-punched. We've been through a lot together but now I feel cold and closed off. She says she's hurt that I'm being so judgmental but I just don't want to talk or see her right now. I feel terrible at the thought of ending our friendship but just writing or thinking about the situation makes my gut churn.
Generally I am quite liberal, listen to Dan Savage, etc. I'm even surprised myself at my reaction. Is there any way I can move beyond this and be friends again? Please keep in mind this is a gut thing and not something I can logic my way out of.
Thoughts? Advice?
I guess I don't understand why you're taking this so personally. She didn't knock him over the head with a crowbar, did she? While I don't think that carrying on with those with SOs is a smart move, I'm not sure that I'd ditch a long term friend for doing so.
Do you think she'd do this to you? Has this happened to you? Or are you more surprised because you thought you knew her and she acted out of character?
posted by Ideefixe at 7:54 AM on March 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
Do you think she'd do this to you? Has this happened to you? Or are you more surprised because you thought you knew her and she acted out of character?
posted by Ideefixe at 7:54 AM on March 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
Please keep in mind this is a gut thing and not something I can logic my way out of.
Well, that's a problem right there. If you want to stay friends, you are going to have to do some practical, non-gut-related thinking on how to move past this on your own. It's your problem, not hers. You guys are young, exploring, making mistakes, figuring out relationships, etc etc, and the cheater and his gf are not married. Lighten up.
posted by thinkpiece at 8:00 AM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
Well, that's a problem right there. If you want to stay friends, you are going to have to do some practical, non-gut-related thinking on how to move past this on your own. It's your problem, not hers. You guys are young, exploring, making mistakes, figuring out relationships, etc etc, and the cheater and his gf are not married. Lighten up.
posted by thinkpiece at 8:00 AM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
A big part of friendship I think is having similar worldviews and things in common- sort of a safe harbor from the rest of the world where you aren't sure where people are coming from and whether they follow the same codes of conduct etc that you do.
So, now you've found out that she has a very different idea of fidelity and whatnot than you do. That would definitely throw me as well. Would you want her standing up at your wedding? Probably not.
So, you can stay friends, but maybe just on a different level, one in which you know she is willing to go places/do things that you are not.
That sounds very judgemental, but I think you are supposed to treat everyone in general well, and respectfully but I think only you get to decide who you are close to and who your friends are without being 'judged' for your own judgement. Does that make sense? I hope so.
ps Note I have a diminishing number of friends for being too judgemental and harsh in general, so take that under advisement as well.
posted by bquarters at 8:01 AM on March 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
So, now you've found out that she has a very different idea of fidelity and whatnot than you do. That would definitely throw me as well. Would you want her standing up at your wedding? Probably not.
So, you can stay friends, but maybe just on a different level, one in which you know she is willing to go places/do things that you are not.
That sounds very judgemental, but I think you are supposed to treat everyone in general well, and respectfully but I think only you get to decide who you are close to and who your friends are without being 'judged' for your own judgement. Does that make sense? I hope so.
ps Note I have a diminishing number of friends for being too judgemental and harsh in general, so take that under advisement as well.
posted by bquarters at 8:01 AM on March 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
I think your friend did a shitty thing, but she didn't do it to you. Ultimately it's probably a question of whether your conflicting moral codes are too incompatible and whether you're okay with that, as Inspector.Gadget points out.
I would give it some time and space before making a big decision. If you need to have a conversation, explain that you don't think it's right to sleep with people who are in relationships, and while you still count her as a friend, right now you need to process all of this.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:02 AM on March 24, 2012
I would give it some time and space before making a big decision. If you need to have a conversation, explain that you don't think it's right to sleep with people who are in relationships, and while you still count her as a friend, right now you need to process all of this.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:02 AM on March 24, 2012
can this friendship be saved? that's up to you it sounds. I've found that, in my "lowest" of times, my truest friends have resisted judgement and refrained from acting/speaking of any judgements.
is there anyway to move beyond this? yeah, realize that there may be other lifestyles, approaches to relationships that don't fit into your belief system. -- don't let that stop you from being a friend. but stop taking this situation so personally - is someone's safety on the line here? are any children being abused here?
posted by mrmarley at 8:03 AM on March 24, 2012
is there anyway to move beyond this? yeah, realize that there may be other lifestyles, approaches to relationships that don't fit into your belief system. -- don't let that stop you from being a friend. but stop taking this situation so personally - is someone's safety on the line here? are any children being abused here?
posted by mrmarley at 8:03 AM on March 24, 2012
Well MeFi will often tell you you should expect people to do to you what they do to others, and that you're a gullible fall guy if you expect yourself to be an exception.
So that's what would make me nervous. It seems rational not to trust her.
posted by tel3path at 8:09 AM on March 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
So that's what would make me nervous. It seems rational not to trust her.
posted by tel3path at 8:09 AM on March 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
I've found that, in my "lowest" of times, my truest friends have resisted judgement and refrained from acting/speaking of any judgements.
Her friend isn't at a "lowest" of times situation, right now. Quite the opposite, in fact. This AskMeis not a "should I be there for my friend in her time of distress?" question.
realize that there may be other lifestyles, approaches to relationships that don't fit into your belief system.
I'm sure she's well aware of that. To echo bquarters, one of the nice things about your close friends is that they're the people who, in a world of conflicting value systems, are the ones you can rely on to share your same outlook.
That and people who do something to someone else will eventually do it to you.
posted by deanc at 8:12 AM on March 24, 2012 [13 favorites]
Her friend isn't at a "lowest" of times situation, right now. Quite the opposite, in fact. This AskMeis not a "should I be there for my friend in her time of distress?" question.
realize that there may be other lifestyles, approaches to relationships that don't fit into your belief system.
I'm sure she's well aware of that. To echo bquarters, one of the nice things about your close friends is that they're the people who, in a world of conflicting value systems, are the ones you can rely on to share your same outlook.
That and people who do something to someone else will eventually do it to you.
posted by deanc at 8:12 AM on March 24, 2012 [13 favorites]
Part of being a friend is accepting the other person for who they are. You can judge them all you want but if are to stay friends you need to just accept them for who they are and what they do.
Being and staying a friend with someone who did/does something you don't agree with does not mean you condone their actions or that you agree with them.
So your friend is no longer on you "perfect friend" pedestal, so what? Maybe they fucked up, maybe they regret it, or maybe they don't. I think you need to take this "issue" in the greater context of your friendship with this person and then decide if the friendship lives up to your ideology of a friendship and whether you can accept that.
Would you feel happier and closer to your friend if they had told you the opposite? That they were approached for a fling but turned the guy down?
posted by eatcake at 8:14 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Being and staying a friend with someone who did/does something you don't agree with does not mean you condone their actions or that you agree with them.
So your friend is no longer on you "perfect friend" pedestal, so what? Maybe they fucked up, maybe they regret it, or maybe they don't. I think you need to take this "issue" in the greater context of your friendship with this person and then decide if the friendship lives up to your ideology of a friendship and whether you can accept that.
Would you feel happier and closer to your friend if they had told you the opposite? That they were approached for a fling but turned the guy down?
posted by eatcake at 8:14 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm curious as to whether you're male or female, anonymous. I'm guessing female, but if you're a guy, that would add a twist to this that we should know about.
I don't buy the "it's just a different approach to relationships" line. The "approach" here is based on deception.
I get why this would bother you. Your friend is showing a lack of empathy for the other woman, and a lack of foresight about how this is going to work out. And a lack of maturity. If this were my friend, I'd worry that something could pop up where she'd discount my feelings completely, and I'd feel vulnerable for confiding in and being influenced by someone with these sorts of dispositions.
I'd take some time to think about it, and figure out what kind of boundaries you want to set with this. I'd say at a minimum, "Don't talk about this situation in my presence," and at a maximum, "Call me again when this inevitably blows up in your face."
posted by alphanerd at 8:14 AM on March 24, 2012 [15 favorites]
I don't buy the "it's just a different approach to relationships" line. The "approach" here is based on deception.
I get why this would bother you. Your friend is showing a lack of empathy for the other woman, and a lack of foresight about how this is going to work out. And a lack of maturity. If this were my friend, I'd worry that something could pop up where she'd discount my feelings completely, and I'd feel vulnerable for confiding in and being influenced by someone with these sorts of dispositions.
I'd take some time to think about it, and figure out what kind of boundaries you want to set with this. I'd say at a minimum, "Don't talk about this situation in my presence," and at a maximum, "Call me again when this inevitably blows up in your face."
posted by alphanerd at 8:14 AM on March 24, 2012 [15 favorites]
I was in a situation somewhat similar to yours a couple of years ago. A guy who was my friend at at the time talked to me about how he was repeatedly cheating on his wife. His marriage was not an open one, and his wife threw him out of the house at one point. I ultimately chose to end the friendship because while I'm OK with open relationships & possibly even a one time f***up cheat, I'm not OK with repeated willful & knowing cheating.
Nor am I OK with inducing someone who is in a relationship to cheat.
OP, if I were in your shoes, I would tell the friend that I'm not willing to hang out with her while she's still banging a guy who is dating someone else, that once she's done banging the guy, I'm perfectly willing to hang out with her again.
posted by AMSBoethius at 8:18 AM on March 24, 2012 [7 favorites]
Nor am I OK with inducing someone who is in a relationship to cheat.
OP, if I were in your shoes, I would tell the friend that I'm not willing to hang out with her while she's still banging a guy who is dating someone else, that once she's done banging the guy, I'm perfectly willing to hang out with her again.
posted by AMSBoethius at 8:18 AM on March 24, 2012 [7 favorites]
Sometimes friendships go through an event like this and recover after some time. If she learns from her mistake, that bodes well for your friendship's recovery.
Sure, it doesn't affect you directly. But it's something you consider unethical and it affects your trust in her. If I were in your shoes, I'd be reconsidering the friendship, too. We forgive our friends' faults - to a point. Everyone who's telling you that we should accept our friends as they are still has their own line drawn somewhere.
If you want to keep the friendship, but can't go right back to it right now, tell her as much. Tell her you do want to be friends, but that what she's done really shook your trust in her, and you'll need a little distance for a while to process all this.
And if she learns that actions like this do affect others' trust in her, she may decide they're no longer worth doing. In that way, you may be doing her a favor.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:19 AM on March 24, 2012 [9 favorites]
Sure, it doesn't affect you directly. But it's something you consider unethical and it affects your trust in her. If I were in your shoes, I'd be reconsidering the friendship, too. We forgive our friends' faults - to a point. Everyone who's telling you that we should accept our friends as they are still has their own line drawn somewhere.
If you want to keep the friendship, but can't go right back to it right now, tell her as much. Tell her you do want to be friends, but that what she's done really shook your trust in her, and you'll need a little distance for a while to process all this.
And if she learns that actions like this do affect others' trust in her, she may decide they're no longer worth doing. In that way, you may be doing her a favor.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:19 AM on March 24, 2012 [9 favorites]
You friend is brazenly doing something shitty. Like what was said upthread, she is not in a time of distress needing your support as a friend. She is sleeping with a guy who has a girlfriend just for the sake of sleeping with him, without even caring for an actual relationship with him. The guy and your friend deserve each other, and I think how you are feeling is reasonable and indicative of the fact that she does not hold the same values as you do. Values which are clearly important to share with friends.
I think unless she comes to see her error, you shouldn't feel guilty for being "judgmental."
posted by DeltaForce at 8:23 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think unless she comes to see her error, you shouldn't feel guilty for being "judgmental."
posted by DeltaForce at 8:23 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Generally I am quite liberal, listen to Dan Savage, etc.
Dan Savage doesn't advocate lying and cheating, which is what this guy is doing and what your friend is participating in. Dan Savage advocates communication between couples who want to seek sex outside the relationship, so that they come to an understanding and make informed choices. Liberal also ≠ lying/cheating.
As others have said, your friend hasn't cheated with your boyfriend, so there's that. If you want to maintain the friendship, then try to consider it the same as a relationship with a family member whose firmly held political/religious beliefs are the polar opposite of yours. Agree to disagree and move on.
Some friendships are worth the sustained effort of ignoring important aspects of your lives, and some aren't.
posted by headnsouth at 8:25 AM on March 24, 2012 [12 favorites]
Dan Savage doesn't advocate lying and cheating, which is what this guy is doing and what your friend is participating in. Dan Savage advocates communication between couples who want to seek sex outside the relationship, so that they come to an understanding and make informed choices. Liberal also ≠ lying/cheating.
As others have said, your friend hasn't cheated with your boyfriend, so there's that. If you want to maintain the friendship, then try to consider it the same as a relationship with a family member whose firmly held political/religious beliefs are the polar opposite of yours. Agree to disagree and move on.
Some friendships are worth the sustained effort of ignoring important aspects of your lives, and some aren't.
posted by headnsouth at 8:25 AM on March 24, 2012 [12 favorites]
Well, I think it's tacky and jerky behavior, but reading your post, it feels like she cheated with your boyfriend. I take it that's not the case, but why are you feeling it SO personally? What's she triggering there for you?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:25 AM on March 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:25 AM on March 24, 2012 [8 favorites]
Like you, I have a visceral reaction to cheating. It might not be rational, they might not be doing it to me, but whatever, I just hate to hear about it, it makes me feel squicked. I've been able to remain friends with people who do this stuff by telling them that I'm not a good person to talk to about these things because I have an irrationally visceral reaction to cheating. If your friend can still be your friend and not talk about it, you guys will probably be fine.
However, I've also had friends distance themselves because they felt like I was judging them (which I was) and they felt it absolutely necessary to talk about it. That's fine, I guess. It's their choice. I just don't have to put myself in a position to listen to something that makes me feel that way.
You don't, either.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 AM on March 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
However, I've also had friends distance themselves because they felt like I was judging them (which I was) and they felt it absolutely necessary to talk about it. That's fine, I guess. It's their choice. I just don't have to put myself in a position to listen to something that makes me feel that way.
You don't, either.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 AM on March 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
I've found that, in my "lowest" of times, my truest friends have resisted judgement and refrained from acting/speaking of any judgements.
Her friend isn't at a "lowest" of times situation, right now. Quite the opposite, in fact.
note that the word "lowest" is in quotation marks. Times I once perceived as "low" are not looked at that way now -- just like the OP may change her mind in the future about this situation and might not want to judge/act/dropthefriendship so quickly.
realize that there may be other lifestyles, approaches to relationships that don't fit into your belief system.
I'm sure she's well aware of that. To echo bquarters, one of the nice things about your close friends is that they're the people who, in a world of conflicting value systems, are the ones you can rely on to share your same outlook.
Like the OP says, she is aware of this, but I think, only a cognitive level. (open mind) She is now dealing on a "gut"/emotional level. (open heart) -- just my 2cents
posted by mrmarley at 8:35 AM on March 24, 2012
For me there are at least couple issues to consider:
1) Can you stay friends with this person on a philosophical/moral level?
This is up to you and only you, and will probably become clearer with a little bit of time and space as your visceral reaction fades (maybe) and you can decide how much this "gap in moral codes" actually bothers you (or if such a huge gap truly exists.) I think it's reasonable to tell her you need a little time/distance to process this but be aware she might not appreciate feeling judged and move on on her own.
But for me the more pressing issue would be...
2) How much drama is going to ensue from my friend's decision and to what level am I going to get dragged into any relationship/friendship messiness?
For me, I would DEFINITELY be distancing myself, and telling my friend why, if there was any potential for this to spiral into some ongoing deception or "he's going to leave her for me" sob fest to which I am required to listen as supportive confidant. Are you close with either this guy or his actual girlfriend in a way that would force you into awkward or deceptive social situations? That would be a dealbreaker for me.
Personally, I try to suspend judgement/make room in my life for people who I don't necessarily share all the same values with as long as they are mature and together enough to not drag me into to their messes. But, admittedly, this is not easy and not always possible and these people are probably less likely to be considered my "close friends".
posted by dahliachewswell at 8:41 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
1) Can you stay friends with this person on a philosophical/moral level?
This is up to you and only you, and will probably become clearer with a little bit of time and space as your visceral reaction fades (maybe) and you can decide how much this "gap in moral codes" actually bothers you (or if such a huge gap truly exists.) I think it's reasonable to tell her you need a little time/distance to process this but be aware she might not appreciate feeling judged and move on on her own.
But for me the more pressing issue would be...
2) How much drama is going to ensue from my friend's decision and to what level am I going to get dragged into any relationship/friendship messiness?
For me, I would DEFINITELY be distancing myself, and telling my friend why, if there was any potential for this to spiral into some ongoing deception or "he's going to leave her for me" sob fest to which I am required to listen as supportive confidant. Are you close with either this guy or his actual girlfriend in a way that would force you into awkward or deceptive social situations? That would be a dealbreaker for me.
Personally, I try to suspend judgement/make room in my life for people who I don't necessarily share all the same values with as long as they are mature and together enough to not drag me into to their messes. But, admittedly, this is not easy and not always possible and these people are probably less likely to be considered my "close friends".
posted by dahliachewswell at 8:41 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm with jenfullmoon - the emotional tone of your reaction sounds like it's about something else, not just about your friend doing something you don't agree with. (The guy is not married, and he apparently wanted to sleep with your friend. She didn't brain him and drag him to her cave. It's the guy who cheated in his relationship; not your friend.)
So what is it? Is your friend perhaps friends with the cheated-on girlfriend as well, and you're thinking that if she'd treat her that way then you can't trust her either? Or is it that you've felt for a while that your friend takes what she wants and doesn't feel like rules apply to her? Or is it something else, some other unease you may have had about her that now feels confirmed?
Just take a moment to think about what the significance of her action is TO YOU. Because from what you've written here, it's not clear. The guy's relationship isn't your business, so it's odd that your reaction is so strong. What she did isn't evil, even if what he did (cheating) is crappy. Many non-married relationships, perhaps most, end because someone meets someone else who is a better match for them at the time.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:47 AM on March 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
So what is it? Is your friend perhaps friends with the cheated-on girlfriend as well, and you're thinking that if she'd treat her that way then you can't trust her either? Or is it that you've felt for a while that your friend takes what she wants and doesn't feel like rules apply to her? Or is it something else, some other unease you may have had about her that now feels confirmed?
Just take a moment to think about what the significance of her action is TO YOU. Because from what you've written here, it's not clear. The guy's relationship isn't your business, so it's odd that your reaction is so strong. What she did isn't evil, even if what he did (cheating) is crappy. Many non-married relationships, perhaps most, end because someone meets someone else who is a better match for them at the time.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:47 AM on March 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
It's not like the friend has come to her and expressed conflict about an act which has a whole commandment against it (deceptive cheating definitely matches the description of adultery IMO). Her friend has said, "I'm doing this, I'm not sorry, I think it's just fine." The guy's not poly, he's not hiding his relationship status from her, and she's not even doing the classic self-deluded "bleurgh I am sure he's going to leave his gf for me sob sniff she doesn't understand him boohoo it's just he can't break up with her right now because she's doing her aerial circus exams and is going through treatment for paperclip phobia."
That's like saying "Yeah I embezzled my company's funds. Lunch is on me, btw."
OP, I think it's completely reasonable for you to be upset by this and to say you think what she's doing is wrong and as long as she's doing it, you can't be around.
posted by tel3path at 8:47 AM on March 24, 2012 [22 favorites]
That's like saying "Yeah I embezzled my company's funds. Lunch is on me, btw."
OP, I think it's completely reasonable for you to be upset by this and to say you think what she's doing is wrong and as long as she's doing it, you can't be around.
posted by tel3path at 8:47 AM on March 24, 2012 [22 favorites]
You might be upset because you had to make a sudden change in how you see her ethics and choices. I think most people (self included) think that their friends share their ethical preconceptions and it's a challenging surprise when we find out differently.
tel3path's example actually happened to me! Twice! I dropped the friend who told me, quite blithely, that he had embezzled money from an employer. I kept a friend who told me that she had embezzled money from an employer, felt terrible about it, and made a multi-year plan to pay her back. In neither case did the embezzlement make a whit of difference in my life, but I didn't want to be friends with Person A because his ethical views were clearly so different from mine.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:57 AM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
tel3path's example actually happened to me! Twice! I dropped the friend who told me, quite blithely, that he had embezzled money from an employer. I kept a friend who told me that she had embezzled money from an employer, felt terrible about it, and made a multi-year plan to pay her back. In neither case did the embezzlement make a whit of difference in my life, but I didn't want to be friends with Person A because his ethical views were clearly so different from mine.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:57 AM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
I had a very close friend; we'd grown up together, we'd been in each other's weddings, vacationed together, etc. At one point she decided that she could not respect or support some choices that I'd made in my life, and those choices bothered her enough that she ended our friendship.
Of course it hurt that she ended the friendship, but what hurt even worse was that she used an unrelated incident as her excuse/catalyst for ending it. I spent a lot of time trying to apologize for and "right" that incident before I finally clued in to what was really going on. She never spoke to me honestly about the situation, never even spoke to me about why I'd made the choices I did. In the end now, I feel like she owed it to our decades-long relationship to at least be honest with me; I feel like she should have still treated me like a friend, at least for one last conversation. She may still have chosen to end the friendship at that point, but at least I would be satisfied that she had done so based on facts, rather than her assumptions.
All that to say, I'm glad that you have had a conversation with your friend about this. It may do you some good just to get some space from her, and if you do decide not to talk to her again, at least you will know that the air is clear between you, that there is nothing left unsaid. You will both be able to move forward, and neither of you will be left wondering.
posted by vignettist at 9:07 AM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
Of course it hurt that she ended the friendship, but what hurt even worse was that she used an unrelated incident as her excuse/catalyst for ending it. I spent a lot of time trying to apologize for and "right" that incident before I finally clued in to what was really going on. She never spoke to me honestly about the situation, never even spoke to me about why I'd made the choices I did. In the end now, I feel like she owed it to our decades-long relationship to at least be honest with me; I feel like she should have still treated me like a friend, at least for one last conversation. She may still have chosen to end the friendship at that point, but at least I would be satisfied that she had done so based on facts, rather than her assumptions.
All that to say, I'm glad that you have had a conversation with your friend about this. It may do you some good just to get some space from her, and if you do decide not to talk to her again, at least you will know that the air is clear between you, that there is nothing left unsaid. You will both be able to move forward, and neither of you will be left wondering.
posted by vignettist at 9:07 AM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
Maybe you're just not that good friends that you can look past this. It is sane and normal to have higher standards for acquaintances than for real close friends. I would try telling her that you don't want to hear anything her relationships and see how that goes. That will tell you if she really wants to be a friend or just wants you as an audience to her drama.
posted by meepmeow at 9:09 AM on March 24, 2012
posted by meepmeow at 9:09 AM on March 24, 2012
Sidhedevil's reaction is mine, too, OP: your sense of shock/confusion/upset seems to be coming from a sudden sense that this friend is, on some level, a different person than who you had presumed she was. As others have said, this has nothing to do with being "liberal" or open to others having poly relationships or whatever; it has to do with seeing that your friend is taking part (and blithely so, by your description) in a relationship that hinges on another woman out there is being cheated on.
This has evidently sent you a message about your friend's character -- that she's capable of doing something you find really dishonorable, and perhaps that she doesn't seem to have the empathy for another woman you might have expected her to have. Those are legitimate things to give you pause.
I don't know that this friendship can be saved; I don't know that it has to be ended forever, either. I think giving yourself some time and space away from her is probably the best idea right now. Things may look very different to you in a couple of months... or you may feel exactly the same. Maybe this is a weird blip in what will continue to be a long friendship, or maybe it's the beginning of you two growing apart. Either thing is a possibility, though I know it's hard not knowing which it may be.
posted by scody at 9:14 AM on March 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
This has evidently sent you a message about your friend's character -- that she's capable of doing something you find really dishonorable, and perhaps that she doesn't seem to have the empathy for another woman you might have expected her to have. Those are legitimate things to give you pause.
I don't know that this friendship can be saved; I don't know that it has to be ended forever, either. I think giving yourself some time and space away from her is probably the best idea right now. Things may look very different to you in a couple of months... or you may feel exactly the same. Maybe this is a weird blip in what will continue to be a long friendship, or maybe it's the beginning of you two growing apart. Either thing is a possibility, though I know it's hard not knowing which it may be.
posted by scody at 9:14 AM on March 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
I find it frustrating that we are supposed to have open hearts about people who choose to do things that are hurtful to other people's emotions AS PART OF THEIR VALUE SYSTEM. This girl believes it's fine to have sex with some one in a monogamous partnership and that her role in that doesn't matter. This is like saying "Well I gave someone the heroin they overdosed on but it was their decision so my involvement doesn't have any moral implication" says Sid's mother.
I believe in forgiving people for making mistakes, but your friend doesn't see this as a mistake or as hurtful. In friends I like human beings who are awake and aware of the emotions of people around them. People make mistakes and that's one thing, but having a value system of hurting others without caring and simultaneously not being very aware about what behaviors harm others is not a very ethical position to me. I like to have compassion for all human beings, even those whose ethics are quite different than mine. But having compassion for human beings in general, does not mean you have to have ongoing friendships with people who you think are hurtful to people around them.
To me the only way I can be friends with someonewho I think is behaving like a jerk is to either assume they are incapable of behaving otherwise (disability/mental illness theory of bad behavior). Not everyone believes their behavior is harmful or that they are doing it because of a difficiency. They might feel it's really who they want to be. In which case, if that's all there is to it, then I quite simply don't like who they like being and I don't see how to have a friendship from there. I do have mutual friends who, like me, have areas they struggle and we forgive each other for these faults and that works out fine to me. With these friends we DO assume that when there seem to be "flaws" in our behaviors there is likely some sort of issue going on because the base of our friendship is that we value treating people well. If you can't even start from that base, it just seems like, why bother?
posted by xarnop at 9:35 AM on March 24, 2012 [14 favorites]
I believe in forgiving people for making mistakes, but your friend doesn't see this as a mistake or as hurtful. In friends I like human beings who are awake and aware of the emotions of people around them. People make mistakes and that's one thing, but having a value system of hurting others without caring and simultaneously not being very aware about what behaviors harm others is not a very ethical position to me. I like to have compassion for all human beings, even those whose ethics are quite different than mine. But having compassion for human beings in general, does not mean you have to have ongoing friendships with people who you think are hurtful to people around them.
To me the only way I can be friends with someonewho I think is behaving like a jerk is to either assume they are incapable of behaving otherwise (disability/mental illness theory of bad behavior). Not everyone believes their behavior is harmful or that they are doing it because of a difficiency. They might feel it's really who they want to be. In which case, if that's all there is to it, then I quite simply don't like who they like being and I don't see how to have a friendship from there. I do have mutual friends who, like me, have areas they struggle and we forgive each other for these faults and that works out fine to me. With these friends we DO assume that when there seem to be "flaws" in our behaviors there is likely some sort of issue going on because the base of our friendship is that we value treating people well. If you can't even start from that base, it just seems like, why bother?
posted by xarnop at 9:35 AM on March 24, 2012 [14 favorites]
I would have a hard time getting worked up about this. I think people's moral choices are really their business, and my judgments of things friends do that don't directly affect our friendship don't enter into the equation of how I relate to them.
Friends do LOTS of stuff that is morally questionable but it's not easily packaged for quick-n-easy moral judgment. We might MORE APPROPRIATELY judge friends for wasting their talents, using drugs, working on Wall Street, etc., but those things do not fall into any really clear zones of moral obloquy.
I guess what it comes down to is you don't really know what's going on in these people's lives. Maybe your friend and her married paramour are The Ones for each other and it's cosmically right for them to be together.
posted by jayder at 9:45 AM on March 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Friends do LOTS of stuff that is morally questionable but it's not easily packaged for quick-n-easy moral judgment. We might MORE APPROPRIATELY judge friends for wasting their talents, using drugs, working on Wall Street, etc., but those things do not fall into any really clear zones of moral obloquy.
I guess what it comes down to is you don't really know what's going on in these people's lives. Maybe your friend and her married paramour are The Ones for each other and it's cosmically right for them to be together.
posted by jayder at 9:45 AM on March 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
I think you are feeling sucker punched, not because of her sleeping with the guy, but because there is a loss of what you had perceived to be an intimate connection with your friend. You probably felt that you had a friendship with this person based on similar values, etc, and now you see you are not as connected as you thought you were, as who you knew her as (someone who would not do this) doesn't really exist, and so the friendship didn't exist as you knew it. Sort of as if you had a relationship with an imaginary friend. That is probably the source of the upset. We know our friends one way, and when we see them a different way we can feel betrayed. The world and our connection wasn't what we thought it was.
If you want to save the relationship you can look at accepting her who she is with all her decisions, which can allow for a deeper, more intimate relationship, or, if this is on a dealbreaker level for you, it's fine to move on.
posted by Vaike at 10:13 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you want to save the relationship you can look at accepting her who she is with all her decisions, which can allow for a deeper, more intimate relationship, or, if this is on a dealbreaker level for you, it's fine to move on.
posted by Vaike at 10:13 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
The more I think about this thread and read comments from people whose judgment I've found to be good in other threads, the more adamant I am that you should put this friendship on ice.
We are all connected, and the choices we make ripple out and affect other people. Some see the consequences of their behavior more easily than others. The degree to which you see this, are willing to look for it, and adjust your actions accordingly is a big part of who you are and how you see other people if you're someone who is attuned to this way of thinking. I think it's a very good barometer for whether or not a person makes the world a better or worse place.
The OP and his/her friend are on different pages with this. It is a big deal. The OP's friend is helping someone pull the wool over another woman's eyes. The friend's actions are contributing to the wasting of part of someone else's one and precious life.
That gut reaction is a sign that your views about proper treatment of others are integrated very well. I would listen to it.
posted by alphanerd at 10:15 AM on March 24, 2012 [12 favorites]
We are all connected, and the choices we make ripple out and affect other people. Some see the consequences of their behavior more easily than others. The degree to which you see this, are willing to look for it, and adjust your actions accordingly is a big part of who you are and how you see other people if you're someone who is attuned to this way of thinking. I think it's a very good barometer for whether or not a person makes the world a better or worse place.
The OP and his/her friend are on different pages with this. It is a big deal. The OP's friend is helping someone pull the wool over another woman's eyes. The friend's actions are contributing to the wasting of part of someone else's one and precious life.
That gut reaction is a sign that your views about proper treatment of others are integrated very well. I would listen to it.
posted by alphanerd at 10:15 AM on March 24, 2012 [12 favorites]
I don't think that every friendship can be, or needs to be, saved. (And I am someone who is still good friends with friends I've had since before kindergarten!)
Friends need to have things in common, and different people have different sets of "things in common" that they want from their friends. It's perfectly reasonable to choose not to be friends with someone who thinks it's fine to sleep with someone who's cheating on their partner. It's perfectly reasonable to choose to remain friends in the same situation. It just depends how important it is to you to have ethical alignment with your friends.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:22 AM on March 24, 2012
Friends need to have things in common, and different people have different sets of "things in common" that they want from their friends. It's perfectly reasonable to choose not to be friends with someone who thinks it's fine to sleep with someone who's cheating on their partner. It's perfectly reasonable to choose to remain friends in the same situation. It just depends how important it is to you to have ethical alignment with your friends.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:22 AM on March 24, 2012
Please keep in mind this is a gut thing and not something I can logic my way out of.
That's an interesting comment. It made me wonder if this is your first (semi-direct?) experience with infidelity. AlphaNerd could be right, this "gut" feeling could be a symptom of deeply held views on your part that will never change. But personally, I didn't get that sense from the rest of your question. The way you describe your emotions, and the fact that you felt surprised by them, suggests something different to me—that this might be a new, outside-your-comfort-zone experience for you. In which case, this gut feeling may have more to do with that.
If there's any truth to that, then it's very possible you will be completely squicked by this experience and yet utterly unfazed by a similar circumstance in five years when it's your fourth time. "Desensitization," for lack of a better word. And if that's the case, then I'm not sure there's much advice to give. Talk to people who have cheated, or been cheated upon. Learn intimate details of relationships that have soured for one reason or another. And of course, have your own experiences, good and bad.
Gut feelings can emerge totally unfounded, sometimes, in the absense of experience. Gaining experience might eliminate those feelings, or it might replace them with identical but now grounded beliefs. Either way, it's less likely that you will feel surprised.
posted by cribcage at 10:49 AM on March 24, 2012
That's an interesting comment. It made me wonder if this is your first (semi-direct?) experience with infidelity. AlphaNerd could be right, this "gut" feeling could be a symptom of deeply held views on your part that will never change. But personally, I didn't get that sense from the rest of your question. The way you describe your emotions, and the fact that you felt surprised by them, suggests something different to me—that this might be a new, outside-your-comfort-zone experience for you. In which case, this gut feeling may have more to do with that.
If there's any truth to that, then it's very possible you will be completely squicked by this experience and yet utterly unfazed by a similar circumstance in five years when it's your fourth time. "Desensitization," for lack of a better word. And if that's the case, then I'm not sure there's much advice to give. Talk to people who have cheated, or been cheated upon. Learn intimate details of relationships that have soured for one reason or another. And of course, have your own experiences, good and bad.
Gut feelings can emerge totally unfounded, sometimes, in the absense of experience. Gaining experience might eliminate those feelings, or it might replace them with identical but now grounded beliefs. Either way, it's less likely that you will feel surprised.
posted by cribcage at 10:49 AM on March 24, 2012
The friend's actions are contributing to the wasting of part of someone else's one and precious life.
I am sympathetic with your view, alphanerd, but upon reflection, we really cannot say -- based on what we know here -- what you say in your quoted passage.
I'm of the mind that, if the guy is cheating on his spouse, there is something wrong with him, or something wrong with his relationship with his wife. So, your friend's dalliance with him may be salutary in several ways: (1) hastening the demise of a doomed marriage (thus reducing the time the wife spends in a failing marriage); (2) leading everyone involved to realize who they SHOULD be with; (3) and giving the wife the nudge to find the right guy rather than this loser who would cheat on her.
Maybe I'm full of it. But it seems to be that cheating is not ALWAYS bad in the long run and in the bigger scheme. It's something the happens, it's unpleasant, etc., but to end a friendship over it seems a bit much (assuming the friendship is otherwise okay).
Personal note: I got divorced from my wife. Neither of us cheated on the other (I'm pretty sure). Looking back, I sort of WISH she had cheated on me to hasten along a dissolution that was inevitable. It would have been a wake-up call in a life where I slumbered too long in a situation that didn't work. Instead, the relationship wound down and we grew apart in a way that was very gradual, and wasted some of our prime years.
posted by jayder at 11:09 AM on March 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
I am sympathetic with your view, alphanerd, but upon reflection, we really cannot say -- based on what we know here -- what you say in your quoted passage.
I'm of the mind that, if the guy is cheating on his spouse, there is something wrong with him, or something wrong with his relationship with his wife. So, your friend's dalliance with him may be salutary in several ways: (1) hastening the demise of a doomed marriage (thus reducing the time the wife spends in a failing marriage); (2) leading everyone involved to realize who they SHOULD be with; (3) and giving the wife the nudge to find the right guy rather than this loser who would cheat on her.
Maybe I'm full of it. But it seems to be that cheating is not ALWAYS bad in the long run and in the bigger scheme. It's something the happens, it's unpleasant, etc., but to end a friendship over it seems a bit much (assuming the friendship is otherwise okay).
Personal note: I got divorced from my wife. Neither of us cheated on the other (I'm pretty sure). Looking back, I sort of WISH she had cheated on me to hasten along a dissolution that was inevitable. It would have been a wake-up call in a life where I slumbered too long in a situation that didn't work. Instead, the relationship wound down and we grew apart in a way that was very gradual, and wasted some of our prime years.
posted by jayder at 11:09 AM on March 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Two thoughts:
1) A close friend of mine has a similar reaction when she found this out about one of her friends. The woman's partner passed away, and when they were celebrating his life and drinking wine, a story about a long-time lover (hers) came out. My friend was devastated by this news. She had seen her friend as a kick-ass go-getter who was deeply in love with her husband. This tore down that image of the friend, and left my own friend quite bitter and upset.
It actually caused problems between her and I, for I don't see why it's important or even relevant. Because my friend has been cheated on a few times and is super-sensitive to the concept of cheating, regardless of who's involved. I wonder if that is happening here. The description sounds very familiar. Bad gut feeling. Wondering if they should still be friends.
Personally, I don't get it. I've been cheated on. Didn't seem like a bit deal. One relationship ends, another begins. A colleague of mine cheats like a damned champion. Doesn't bother me, nor do I feel it reflects on his moral code. God knows what's going on in other people's lives. I'd prefer if people didn't judge me, so I'm not going to judge them. That being said, I wouldn't be great friends with a serial cheater, but not because of the cheating. To me, cheating indicates a generally weak character and indecisiveness. I don't get along with people with either of those traits, whether they are related to sex or not.
2) Second point is that friendship is a hedonistic calculus right?
Here's a scorecard:
One-on-one chats: +1 (decent chats, nothing too deep)
Outgoingness: +3 (rock the nightclubs)
Food preferences: +3 (great dinner dates)
Punctuality: -1 (mofo is always late)
Money handling skills: +2 (never borrows)
Generosity: +1 (gave to the marathon fund)
Sense of humour: -2 (pretty uptight and egotistical)
Sports interests: +2 (you can find us in the pub watching the cricket)
etc.
That's a balance of +9. This person has a long way to go before life would be better off without them than with them.
But there are limitations:
Sleeps with someone else's girlfriend: -2 (not really cool but I'm not so bothered)
Sleeps with my girlfriend: -10 (that's a bad move)
Murders his boss for money: -100 (have fun in jail buddy)
Point being that friendships are complex calculations that change over time. And there are dealbreakers. In your case, I think you are over-reacting. Now, if she continues the behaviour and that indicates she is becoming a different person, you can make the decision not to be with her. But that's because you both are changing as people, not because of one specific activity.
In the meantime, I would think about why infideilty bothers you so much. It's not "wrong". Murder is wrong. Sleeping with someone else's lover/wife/whatever is in bad taste, but it's not wrong. Besides, the onous should be on the dude she slept with. He's the one in the relationship.
posted by nickrussell at 11:28 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
1) A close friend of mine has a similar reaction when she found this out about one of her friends. The woman's partner passed away, and when they were celebrating his life and drinking wine, a story about a long-time lover (hers) came out. My friend was devastated by this news. She had seen her friend as a kick-ass go-getter who was deeply in love with her husband. This tore down that image of the friend, and left my own friend quite bitter and upset.
It actually caused problems between her and I, for I don't see why it's important or even relevant. Because my friend has been cheated on a few times and is super-sensitive to the concept of cheating, regardless of who's involved. I wonder if that is happening here. The description sounds very familiar. Bad gut feeling. Wondering if they should still be friends.
Personally, I don't get it. I've been cheated on. Didn't seem like a bit deal. One relationship ends, another begins. A colleague of mine cheats like a damned champion. Doesn't bother me, nor do I feel it reflects on his moral code. God knows what's going on in other people's lives. I'd prefer if people didn't judge me, so I'm not going to judge them. That being said, I wouldn't be great friends with a serial cheater, but not because of the cheating. To me, cheating indicates a generally weak character and indecisiveness. I don't get along with people with either of those traits, whether they are related to sex or not.
2) Second point is that friendship is a hedonistic calculus right?
Here's a scorecard:
One-on-one chats: +1 (decent chats, nothing too deep)
Outgoingness: +3 (rock the nightclubs)
Food preferences: +3 (great dinner dates)
Punctuality: -1 (mofo is always late)
Money handling skills: +2 (never borrows)
Generosity: +1 (gave to the marathon fund)
Sense of humour: -2 (pretty uptight and egotistical)
Sports interests: +2 (you can find us in the pub watching the cricket)
etc.
That's a balance of +9. This person has a long way to go before life would be better off without them than with them.
But there are limitations:
Sleeps with someone else's girlfriend: -2 (not really cool but I'm not so bothered)
Sleeps with my girlfriend: -10 (that's a bad move)
Murders his boss for money: -100 (have fun in jail buddy)
Point being that friendships are complex calculations that change over time. And there are dealbreakers. In your case, I think you are over-reacting. Now, if she continues the behaviour and that indicates she is becoming a different person, you can make the decision not to be with her. But that's because you both are changing as people, not because of one specific activity.
In the meantime, I would think about why infideilty bothers you so much. It's not "wrong". Murder is wrong. Sleeping with someone else's lover/wife/whatever is in bad taste, but it's not wrong. Besides, the onous should be on the dude she slept with. He's the one in the relationship.
posted by nickrussell at 11:28 AM on March 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Well, if I found out that one of my friends was involved in cheating, I would most likely feel concerned and annoyed--I would be like, dude, this is obviously a bad plan, why are you doing something that is almost certainly going to blow up in your face? I would communicate that to them, although in a much more diplomatic way.
You're having a pretty different reaction, which makes sense, as you're a different person from me. It seems like you're somewhat surprised by this reaction--it comes from your gut, from this visceral, non-verbal part of you. I think before you can figure out what to do about your friendship, you need to figure out why you're having this kind of emotional reaction.
It might be, as some in this thread have suggested, that this feels like a violation of your ethics and your capacity to trust this person. Your gut sense of wrongness might be persistent and that will probably mean you need to lessen the intimacy level of this friendship and maybe even end it altogether.
It might be that you need to work through some emotions that are buried right now--have you been cheated on in the past? Or been lied to in some other intimate context? The basic question is, does what your friend is doing remind you of something from your past, something that hurt you intensely?
If you do figure out that your friend's behavior is triggering you, you can figure out what you want to do from there. Basically, I think in order to resolve this situation you need to do some reflection and exploration to determine what your values and needs and boundaries around all this are. Feel free to memail me if you want to hear some of the ways I've done that--my comment is getting pretty long already!
posted by overglow at 11:45 AM on March 24, 2012
You're having a pretty different reaction, which makes sense, as you're a different person from me. It seems like you're somewhat surprised by this reaction--it comes from your gut, from this visceral, non-verbal part of you. I think before you can figure out what to do about your friendship, you need to figure out why you're having this kind of emotional reaction.
It might be, as some in this thread have suggested, that this feels like a violation of your ethics and your capacity to trust this person. Your gut sense of wrongness might be persistent and that will probably mean you need to lessen the intimacy level of this friendship and maybe even end it altogether.
It might be that you need to work through some emotions that are buried right now--have you been cheated on in the past? Or been lied to in some other intimate context? The basic question is, does what your friend is doing remind you of something from your past, something that hurt you intensely?
If you do figure out that your friend's behavior is triggering you, you can figure out what you want to do from there. Basically, I think in order to resolve this situation you need to do some reflection and exploration to determine what your values and needs and boundaries around all this are. Feel free to memail me if you want to hear some of the ways I've done that--my comment is getting pretty long already!
posted by overglow at 11:45 AM on March 24, 2012
I would have a real problem with this, too. I think what your friend did is cruel, selfish, deceitful. I don't want to be around unethical people to treat others callously. Compassion, kindness, and not treating others as toys are very important values to me, and I would have a hard time feeling an intimate friendship to someone who I knew didn't share them. I wouldn't be able to trust they wouldn't treat me in a similar, unethical way.
That said, I don't think you need to take steps to actively end the friendship right this second. This is all really new, you're feeling shocked and disgusted, so maybe it's not the best moment to make black and white decisions about the future.
However, I would definitely take a hiatus from seeing or speaking with your friend. Just take a time out to wrap your head around what happened. In time, if you miss your friend and decide you can put this event aside, you can do so. But if you can't, you don't have to. And truly, if you take this hiatus, your friend may not want to see you again, but you have to take care of yourself first, so that's a risk I would take.
posted by mostlymartha at 11:50 AM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
That said, I don't think you need to take steps to actively end the friendship right this second. This is all really new, you're feeling shocked and disgusted, so maybe it's not the best moment to make black and white decisions about the future.
However, I would definitely take a hiatus from seeing or speaking with your friend. Just take a time out to wrap your head around what happened. In time, if you miss your friend and decide you can put this event aside, you can do so. But if you can't, you don't have to. And truly, if you take this hiatus, your friend may not want to see you again, but you have to take care of yourself first, so that's a risk I would take.
posted by mostlymartha at 11:50 AM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
OP: There are people in this thread who think it's a big deal, and people who don't think it's a big deal. I think it is a big deal, and I think you think it's a big deal, and that you'll be happier if you shelve this friendship and look to replace her with friends who don't do things that give you bad, visceral gut reactions to their behavior. You can totally find them.
cribcage: Gut feelings emerge all the time for unfounded reasons, but I see deception as being at the center of all of this, deception as being something that is reprehensible enough to cause that sort of visceral reaction in a moral sense, and a willingness to be party to deception as a sign that a person is unsafe from the standpoint of self-protection.
To me, that's what makes it the best candidate for what's going on here, though the OP may not have come to terms with this if in fact s/he's looking at things like the Savage Love Cast and ideas about "liberalism" and not finding them adequate to assuage her misgivings here. S/he may not be seeing how central the expectation of honesty is in extracurricular dalliances as advocated by Dan Savage, etc.
jayder: We can't say for sure in the long run whether the cheating will lead to bad consequences, but we can extrapolate everything we need to know about this guy's intentions, beliefs about his girlfriend, and her views on this situation from the fact that he is lying, and that the boyfriend and girlfriend both believe that the disclosure of the reality of this situation would lead to bad consequences they consider to be bad, and reveal attitudes on the boyfriend's part considered by both of them to be bad.
posted by alphanerd at 11:55 AM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
cribcage: Gut feelings emerge all the time for unfounded reasons, but I see deception as being at the center of all of this, deception as being something that is reprehensible enough to cause that sort of visceral reaction in a moral sense, and a willingness to be party to deception as a sign that a person is unsafe from the standpoint of self-protection.
To me, that's what makes it the best candidate for what's going on here, though the OP may not have come to terms with this if in fact s/he's looking at things like the Savage Love Cast and ideas about "liberalism" and not finding them adequate to assuage her misgivings here. S/he may not be seeing how central the expectation of honesty is in extracurricular dalliances as advocated by Dan Savage, etc.
jayder: We can't say for sure in the long run whether the cheating will lead to bad consequences, but we can extrapolate everything we need to know about this guy's intentions, beliefs about his girlfriend, and her views on this situation from the fact that he is lying, and that the boyfriend and girlfriend both believe that the disclosure of the reality of this situation would lead to bad consequences they consider to be bad, and reveal attitudes on the boyfriend's part considered by both of them to be bad.
posted by alphanerd at 11:55 AM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
You can be friends again if you want to be but it doesn't really sound like you want to be. This can be a deal breaker in a friendship for you - that's okay. That's the thing - we are all free to decide what we find acceptable in our relationships with others.
posted by mleigh at 11:58 AM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by mleigh at 11:58 AM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
If I were you I would find it important to explain to the friend why I feel the way I do, not in a finger-wagging kind of way (even though she deserves finger wagging, I would withhold that because I'm sure it would turn her off and she would not listen to you). I would say something like,
"listen, friend, I care about you a lot, and I think you're a great person. We've been friends a long time. I'm just upset to hear about you sleeping with this guy who's got a girlfriend. It's not just that I'm against lying and cheating on principle, I also think that he's using you, and I'm worried that multiple people in this scenario are going to end up getting hurt. I know you say you don't care about having a relationship with him, but I know you and I know that you are not the kind of person to just screw around with someone like that, and that's why I suspect you really care about him but you're putting up a tough exterior so that you won't be vulnerable when he doesn't leave her for you. He says that his relationship with his girlfriend is bad, but if it was truly bad, he would have left her already. So to me it looks like you guys are not only lying to yourselves, you're lying to each other. This isn't being judgmental. This is a valid concern about a bad situation you're getting into, but you're an adult and you can make your own choices - I just want to understand why you would choose to do this instead of having the meaningful, loving relationship that you deserve."
After having a talk like that, I'd feel better because my feelings would be off my chest, and given that this isn't like your friend committing a felony or something, I'd probably just leave it at that and keep up the friendship. If she is a real friend she would understand the type of concerns outlined above. I mean, good/nice people don't just have sex with cheaters just for the hell of it. There's got to be some other reason, either she has feelings for him and doesn't want to say so, or she just has poor self esteem and doesn't think she deserves a true loving relationship. I think I would try to help her to understand the situation better and support her trying to get out of it up to a point, unless she remained very defensive and brazen about it in which case I'd give up.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:25 PM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
"listen, friend, I care about you a lot, and I think you're a great person. We've been friends a long time. I'm just upset to hear about you sleeping with this guy who's got a girlfriend. It's not just that I'm against lying and cheating on principle, I also think that he's using you, and I'm worried that multiple people in this scenario are going to end up getting hurt. I know you say you don't care about having a relationship with him, but I know you and I know that you are not the kind of person to just screw around with someone like that, and that's why I suspect you really care about him but you're putting up a tough exterior so that you won't be vulnerable when he doesn't leave her for you. He says that his relationship with his girlfriend is bad, but if it was truly bad, he would have left her already. So to me it looks like you guys are not only lying to yourselves, you're lying to each other. This isn't being judgmental. This is a valid concern about a bad situation you're getting into, but you're an adult and you can make your own choices - I just want to understand why you would choose to do this instead of having the meaningful, loving relationship that you deserve."
After having a talk like that, I'd feel better because my feelings would be off my chest, and given that this isn't like your friend committing a felony or something, I'd probably just leave it at that and keep up the friendship. If she is a real friend she would understand the type of concerns outlined above. I mean, good/nice people don't just have sex with cheaters just for the hell of it. There's got to be some other reason, either she has feelings for him and doesn't want to say so, or she just has poor self esteem and doesn't think she deserves a true loving relationship. I think I would try to help her to understand the situation better and support her trying to get out of it up to a point, unless she remained very defensive and brazen about it in which case I'd give up.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:25 PM on March 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
A friend of mine told me she was cheating on another friend of mine and it bothered me because she made me complicit in the knowledge. We ended up not being friends for other reasons that escape me now. If I ran into her somehow now, it would be interesting to see what happened to her and see if she still had the qualities that made us friends.
Another friend recently was seeing a married man whose marriage was "over" whose wife knew about her and was publicly hostile. That was screwed up more for the fact she was putting herself in ugly public situation and why she was even doing it in the first place. I'm pretty sure she told me as a kind of confession of doing something screwy before she got out of it. The first friend didn't think cheating was a big issue, the second has huge personal issues with it.
This other friend I have also found out something about and it has really changed what I think of her in a basic way. I had a hard time dealing with it, in a way I still do. I definitely have put her in a different category now but we have been friends for such a long time, she would never understand me cutting her off completely. She's kind of in this probationary zone where she may prove herself in some way for future closeness but I'm just as ready to end it should there be any further reason.
posted by provoliminal at 3:06 PM on March 24, 2012
Another friend recently was seeing a married man whose marriage was "over" whose wife knew about her and was publicly hostile. That was screwed up more for the fact she was putting herself in ugly public situation and why she was even doing it in the first place. I'm pretty sure she told me as a kind of confession of doing something screwy before she got out of it. The first friend didn't think cheating was a big issue, the second has huge personal issues with it.
This other friend I have also found out something about and it has really changed what I think of her in a basic way. I had a hard time dealing with it, in a way I still do. I definitely have put her in a different category now but we have been friends for such a long time, she would never understand me cutting her off completely. She's kind of in this probationary zone where she may prove herself in some way for future closeness but I'm just as ready to end it should there be any further reason.
posted by provoliminal at 3:06 PM on March 24, 2012
Response by poster: If she is a good friend of yours, then give her the benefit of the doubt to sort out why she's going through all this.
There is an acquaintance of mine who cheats rampantly on their SO. This person definitely has troubles of their own. But they feel it is their right to cheat, their SO is to blame, their life is hard, etc etc etc. Hence them being "acquaintance" and not "good friend".
I have had good friends, very good friends, who have similarly engaged in cheating behavior. However, it was during a very dark, depressed period of their lives, where cheating was a shitty coping mechanism to deal with the turmoil in the situation around them and within themselves. They moved through the period and regret their actions. I am still friends with these friends; as much as I didn't agree with their behavior at the time, I knew why it was happening, I cared deeply about them, and I just did my best to support them through all the rest of the dark times without giving the cheating behavior the OK.
Is your friend having an especially hard time in her life right now? Do you know if this cheating is a (very shitty) way of dealing with some stressors, a distraction from problems, etc? Or does she simply want to bang the guy and doesn't give a shit about his girlfriend? If it's the former and she's been a great friend of yours, then keep in mind you can support a person through their troubles without approving of all the actions they take to cope. You encourage positive methods of coping without encouraging the negative ones. If she's just being selfish, well, then, yeah, if it bothers you then you gotta reconsider the friendship.
posted by Anonymous at 3:48 PM on March 24, 2012
There is an acquaintance of mine who cheats rampantly on their SO. This person definitely has troubles of their own. But they feel it is their right to cheat, their SO is to blame, their life is hard, etc etc etc. Hence them being "acquaintance" and not "good friend".
I have had good friends, very good friends, who have similarly engaged in cheating behavior. However, it was during a very dark, depressed period of their lives, where cheating was a shitty coping mechanism to deal with the turmoil in the situation around them and within themselves. They moved through the period and regret their actions. I am still friends with these friends; as much as I didn't agree with their behavior at the time, I knew why it was happening, I cared deeply about them, and I just did my best to support them through all the rest of the dark times without giving the cheating behavior the OK.
Is your friend having an especially hard time in her life right now? Do you know if this cheating is a (very shitty) way of dealing with some stressors, a distraction from problems, etc? Or does she simply want to bang the guy and doesn't give a shit about his girlfriend? If it's the former and she's been a great friend of yours, then keep in mind you can support a person through their troubles without approving of all the actions they take to cope. You encourage positive methods of coping without encouraging the negative ones. If she's just being selfish, well, then, yeah, if it bothers you then you gotta reconsider the friendship.
posted by Anonymous at 3:48 PM on March 24, 2012
this is a gut thing and not something I can logic my way out of
Lack of remorse really speaks volumes about a person. It tells you too much the extent to which they are willing to rationalize away the well-being of others without skipping a beat. I think your gut is picking up on this. Especially since it doesn't sound like your friend is in any sort of predicament where she somehow has no other alternative for sex. She could find a sexual arrangement in which no one is being hurt/betrayed/etc., and she's choosing not to. It's hard not to wonder what else she would choose to do without feeling any remorse for how deeply her choice might hurt another person. Sure, that might be painting it to unnecessary extremes, but as far as feeling comfortable in a friendship with her goes, she decided to show you that door is open. And some decisions have consequences.
... if she learns that actions like this do affect others' trust in her, she may decide they're no longer worth doing. In that way, you may be doing her a favor.
Also this. It's part of dealing with the consequences of one's actions/choices. This is not a statement to be condemning to the friend or to say she's beyond redemption -- it's more the ugly reality that no matter how well a person rationalize decisions that are self-serving at the expense of others, there is ultimately a price, i.e. loss of trust, loss of respect, etc. It's childish, IMO, to expect unconditional support from friends for one's 100% self-serving and frankly callous behavior without any expressed desire to do better in the future. If she wanted sex from the guy that bad and was "so sure" that he's better off without his girlfriend, she could just as well wait until he ended his current unfulfilling relationship. Unnecessary drama is unattractive in any kind of friendship/relationship/etc., and it's perfectly all right to draw a boundary with it, even in a friendship.
posted by human ecologist at 8:06 PM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
Lack of remorse really speaks volumes about a person. It tells you too much the extent to which they are willing to rationalize away the well-being of others without skipping a beat. I think your gut is picking up on this. Especially since it doesn't sound like your friend is in any sort of predicament where she somehow has no other alternative for sex. She could find a sexual arrangement in which no one is being hurt/betrayed/etc., and she's choosing not to. It's hard not to wonder what else she would choose to do without feeling any remorse for how deeply her choice might hurt another person. Sure, that might be painting it to unnecessary extremes, but as far as feeling comfortable in a friendship with her goes, she decided to show you that door is open. And some decisions have consequences.
... if she learns that actions like this do affect others' trust in her, she may decide they're no longer worth doing. In that way, you may be doing her a favor.
Also this. It's part of dealing with the consequences of one's actions/choices. This is not a statement to be condemning to the friend or to say she's beyond redemption -- it's more the ugly reality that no matter how well a person rationalize decisions that are self-serving at the expense of others, there is ultimately a price, i.e. loss of trust, loss of respect, etc. It's childish, IMO, to expect unconditional support from friends for one's 100% self-serving and frankly callous behavior without any expressed desire to do better in the future. If she wanted sex from the guy that bad and was "so sure" that he's better off without his girlfriend, she could just as well wait until he ended his current unfulfilling relationship. Unnecessary drama is unattractive in any kind of friendship/relationship/etc., and it's perfectly all right to draw a boundary with it, even in a friendship.
posted by human ecologist at 8:06 PM on March 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
You know, there are several billion people in the world. I think it's okay to try and find a few who share our values and be friends with them. As for the many others who don't, some may come into our lives to teach us something, or we may share something small for a time, but without sharing at least some core values it is very difficult to sustain a meaningful relationship across the years.
It's okay for you to find like-minded friends who share your values. This friend seems not to, and that's okay. No need to judge her actions. Just assess: does this fit in with my values at this time? I suspect for you that the answer is no. And again, that's okay. There will be plenty of people in the world with whom you do share values. Find those people.
posted by lulu68 at 8:32 PM on March 24, 2012 [7 favorites]
It's okay for you to find like-minded friends who share your values. This friend seems not to, and that's okay. No need to judge her actions. Just assess: does this fit in with my values at this time? I suspect for you that the answer is no. And again, that's okay. There will be plenty of people in the world with whom you do share values. Find those people.
posted by lulu68 at 8:32 PM on March 24, 2012 [7 favorites]
Honestly, I don't see what this has to do with you at all. Your friend (presumably) didn't coerce or abuse anyone, and wasn't cheating on their own partner. I think the problem is you not her.
posted by radioamy at 12:55 PM on March 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by radioamy at 12:55 PM on March 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
I had a similar situation with a friend. She relished in telling me about her hyper-romantic new relationship- how it was star-crossed and how deeply they felt for each other- and how it could only be what it was because he was still in love with his wife.
I told her that I could be her friend, but I deeply disagreed with the choice she was making- and therefore never ever ever wanted to hear about the situation. It wasn't so much her actions- but her incredible lack of empathy for the other person involved. It didn't really matter that HE was the real super-dick in the situation- it was about how she could participate in active cruelty against someone else.
Our friendship barely survived- she still thinks I'm judgmental and she's damn right. We make choices and judgments about all kinds of behavior. Not all personal choices are morally neutral.
If your friend was say, going to watch another friend throw a sack of puppies into a river to watch them drown- you wouldn't say "well, she's not participating directly in the cruelty- it's not my place to say anything and it shouldn't bug me."
posted by Blisterlips at 6:38 AM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]
I told her that I could be her friend, but I deeply disagreed with the choice she was making- and therefore never ever ever wanted to hear about the situation. It wasn't so much her actions- but her incredible lack of empathy for the other person involved. It didn't really matter that HE was the real super-dick in the situation- it was about how she could participate in active cruelty against someone else.
Our friendship barely survived- she still thinks I'm judgmental and she's damn right. We make choices and judgments about all kinds of behavior. Not all personal choices are morally neutral.
If your friend was say, going to watch another friend throw a sack of puppies into a river to watch them drown- you wouldn't say "well, she's not participating directly in the cruelty- it's not my place to say anything and it shouldn't bug me."
posted by Blisterlips at 6:38 AM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]
Does OP have a throw-away email address?
posted by getawaysticks at 7:15 AM on March 26, 2012
posted by getawaysticks at 7:15 AM on March 26, 2012
It's shitty, but I think you'd be surprised if you found out how many of your friends and acquaintances are doing the same thing. There is something about me that makes coworkers and acquaintances tell me the darndest things, and it's really ... well, not at all surprising to me anymore ... how many people sleep around with people they shouldn't. My word. The best advice I can give you is to get used to it, because you're being naive if you think that kind of behavior isn't rampant.
I am NOT suggesting you lower your own standards. I'd just suggest you remain friends. You'll get over the shock in time, and maybe you can be someone who inspires your friend to make better choices in the future.
(Actually, that last part is the best advice I can give you. If you really cared about her before, please continue caring about her. Maybe you can help her be the person you thought she was.)
posted by iguanapolitico at 2:40 PM on March 26, 2012
I am NOT suggesting you lower your own standards. I'd just suggest you remain friends. You'll get over the shock in time, and maybe you can be someone who inspires your friend to make better choices in the future.
(Actually, that last part is the best advice I can give you. If you really cared about her before, please continue caring about her. Maybe you can help her be the person you thought she was.)
posted by iguanapolitico at 2:40 PM on March 26, 2012
Hm. The responses to questions like this are always fascinating to me, because it's an excellent reality check on what the rest of the world feels about certain behaviors. For instance, I, like you, would be really, really disturbed if a friend said he or she was having an ongoing sexual relationship with someone ostensibly in a monogamous relationship with someone else, and it's interesting to me how many people don't seem to be bothered by it because it doesn't directly affect you, in theory.
You're surprised and struggling with why you feel upset. I openly admit that I judge people's character based upon the evidence provided by their behavior, and that this would be a major red flag to me, signaling an extreme lack of empathy that I would assume would definitely burn me someday. I don't believe in "deep down, so-and-so means well." Show me you mean well. Otherwise, I'll assume what I've seen is who you are.
Could that be a part of why you're having a hard time with her behavior? And if so, and you want to maintain the friendship, can you maybe sit and remind yourself of all the great things she's said/done to make you count her a friend in the first place? Maybe a concrete example of her behaving in a way you feel is ethical or honorable would remind you she is also the friend you admire and trust, but she has maybe a bit of a blind spot in this case. We all mess up now and then. Maybe she lacks empathy; maybe she's actually over-the-moon for this guy, but putting on a bit of bravado and pretending she's less invested than she is in case he doesn't ditch his gf. Either way, she may benefit from an ear or an example down the line.
Also, regarding this:
"She says that it's not a good relationship and that if he were happy with his gf he wouldn't seek her out."
Er, multiple studies of infidelity, at least among married couples, have shown that often men who cheat are just...sort of...cheaters. As in, they self-reported, as often as not, that they were happy in their relationships; they just wanted some on the side, and had no actual problems with their cheated-on partners. With women, dissatisfaction with the relationship was the primary reported cause of infidelity, but with men, it actually wasn't. Wish I could find the link to the most recent study, but it's an interesting side-note if she's justifying her behavior via the old "he wouldn't be stepping out if the woman were taking care of him properly" canard.
posted by OompaLoompa at 11:11 PM on March 26, 2012
You're surprised and struggling with why you feel upset. I openly admit that I judge people's character based upon the evidence provided by their behavior, and that this would be a major red flag to me, signaling an extreme lack of empathy that I would assume would definitely burn me someday. I don't believe in "deep down, so-and-so means well." Show me you mean well. Otherwise, I'll assume what I've seen is who you are.
Could that be a part of why you're having a hard time with her behavior? And if so, and you want to maintain the friendship, can you maybe sit and remind yourself of all the great things she's said/done to make you count her a friend in the first place? Maybe a concrete example of her behaving in a way you feel is ethical or honorable would remind you she is also the friend you admire and trust, but she has maybe a bit of a blind spot in this case. We all mess up now and then. Maybe she lacks empathy; maybe she's actually over-the-moon for this guy, but putting on a bit of bravado and pretending she's less invested than she is in case he doesn't ditch his gf. Either way, she may benefit from an ear or an example down the line.
Also, regarding this:
"She says that it's not a good relationship and that if he were happy with his gf he wouldn't seek her out."
Er, multiple studies of infidelity, at least among married couples, have shown that often men who cheat are just...sort of...cheaters. As in, they self-reported, as often as not, that they were happy in their relationships; they just wanted some on the side, and had no actual problems with their cheated-on partners. With women, dissatisfaction with the relationship was the primary reported cause of infidelity, but with men, it actually wasn't. Wish I could find the link to the most recent study, but it's an interesting side-note if she's justifying her behavior via the old "he wouldn't be stepping out if the woman were taking care of him properly" canard.
posted by OompaLoompa at 11:11 PM on March 26, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
This is not her call to make, and you obviously picked up on the fact that it's a BS excuse.
She says she's hurt that I'm being so judgmental but I just don't want to talk or see her right now. I feel terrible at the thought of ending our friendship but just writing or thinking about the situation makes my gut churn.
Plenty of friendships have tapered off because of conflicting moral codes. Whether this even is a significant enough breach of yours to cause this particular friendship to end is something that only you can decide. As you note, it's a gut thng, but it may be a gut thing that represents your considered judgment about what type of person is reliable and upright enough to be counted as your friend.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:40 AM on March 24, 2012 [10 favorites]