Any hope?
March 20, 2012 8:33 AM Subscribe
My wife and I are becoming incompatible, can this be fixed or should I start thinking about heading for the exit
So, I’m not sure where to begin with all of this or even if it can be contained in one question. For the past six months or so I have been feeling increasingly anxious, unhappy and confused. I have a ton of stress going on in my life and all of it seems to be contributing to this to the point where I feel I’ve lost the ability to differentiate between the real problems I think I’m having in my marriage and outside pressures creeping in. I think I’m in desperate need of some outside perspective.
I think I’ll start with some background. My wife and I married young, we met when we were in our early twenties.. I’m 35 now. When we met we were both without real college education (just technical certificates) and essentially worked as labourers in jobs that were dead-end but quite enjoyable at the time. Over the past 10 years I had several “false starts” at trying to find a new career with a future and finally got the courage up to just go back to school full-time. I’m into the last 6 months with an excellent job waiting for me at the end. My wife has stayed at her job while I studied. I had enough savings and investments to pay the mortgage and tuition, while her job pays for the cars and groceries. Money is tight but we’re not starving. No kids yet, but time is running out.
I’m starting to feel like we have grown in radically different directions and the passion/spark has died somewhere along the way.... We don’t really have a lot to talk about anymore... most nights the conversation ends once we’ve finished telling each other how the day went. Sometimes we will try to talk about things that interest us but there seems to be very little common ground. The Sex is ok but seems to be becoming rarer. Historically we have done everything together, although I feel that a lot of the time it was more her wanting to “tag along” rather than a genuine interest in whatever activity.
I’m also finding myself increasingly turned-off mentally and emotionally from her. She refuses to do anything meaningful for herself. She hates her job, but won’t look at classified ads, she doesn’t seem interested in finding personal relationships with new people outside of our marriage, and she doesn’t want to learn anything for herself... she’s always asking me to explain things, despite my many efforts to point her at resources so she can figure something out for herself. I handle all of the finances and organisational stuff in the relationship. I usually don’t mind the organising but sometimes it feels like I’m babysitting a child rather than married to an equal partner. She also has some trust issues, she doesn’t like me doing things without her and is frequently ‘strange’ or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason). This results in my being very anxious about introducing her to my new friends so I usually try to avoid it. She is also dishonest about little things... stupid little white-lies that really aren’t a big deal but are maddening because they just seem so obvious and ridiculous. None of this except the jealousy is really new; it just seems to matter now, when it didn’t seem so important in the past.
How do I start to sort my feelings out? I’ve tried having a conversation with her about how I’m feeling, but rather than engage me in the conversation or even yell at me she just breaks down into tears, shuts down and makes me feel terrible for bringing it up. This is typically followed by extra clinginess, which just makes me feel worse because I resent her for it. I don’t know what to do, on one hand if this is how it’s going to be forever than I want out and a new life. Complicating things, I’ve found recently that I’m becoming more interested in another woman and although I have not allowed myself to flirt or act on these feelings at all, I find myself making comparisons that I know are unhelpful.
On the other hand though, how do I figure out how much of what I’m feeling is stress from an upcoming job, a tremendous workload, general exhaustion, etc.? I don’t feel this way consistently, sometimes we are happy-ish and despite this post it’s not like she’s a horrible person with no redeeming qualities, in a lot of ways I still think she is the perfect partner for who I was if that makes any sense. She had a horrible childhood (put into foster care), very little constructive family or friend support and has very poor prospects for getting ahead in life outside of the marriage, I often feel like I’m a monster for even thinking about ending our marriage and putting her through more misery.
I setup a throw-away email lostroad@hotmail.co.uk
So, I’m not sure where to begin with all of this or even if it can be contained in one question. For the past six months or so I have been feeling increasingly anxious, unhappy and confused. I have a ton of stress going on in my life and all of it seems to be contributing to this to the point where I feel I’ve lost the ability to differentiate between the real problems I think I’m having in my marriage and outside pressures creeping in. I think I’m in desperate need of some outside perspective.
I think I’ll start with some background. My wife and I married young, we met when we were in our early twenties.. I’m 35 now. When we met we were both without real college education (just technical certificates) and essentially worked as labourers in jobs that were dead-end but quite enjoyable at the time. Over the past 10 years I had several “false starts” at trying to find a new career with a future and finally got the courage up to just go back to school full-time. I’m into the last 6 months with an excellent job waiting for me at the end. My wife has stayed at her job while I studied. I had enough savings and investments to pay the mortgage and tuition, while her job pays for the cars and groceries. Money is tight but we’re not starving. No kids yet, but time is running out.
I’m starting to feel like we have grown in radically different directions and the passion/spark has died somewhere along the way.... We don’t really have a lot to talk about anymore... most nights the conversation ends once we’ve finished telling each other how the day went. Sometimes we will try to talk about things that interest us but there seems to be very little common ground. The Sex is ok but seems to be becoming rarer. Historically we have done everything together, although I feel that a lot of the time it was more her wanting to “tag along” rather than a genuine interest in whatever activity.
I’m also finding myself increasingly turned-off mentally and emotionally from her. She refuses to do anything meaningful for herself. She hates her job, but won’t look at classified ads, she doesn’t seem interested in finding personal relationships with new people outside of our marriage, and she doesn’t want to learn anything for herself... she’s always asking me to explain things, despite my many efforts to point her at resources so she can figure something out for herself. I handle all of the finances and organisational stuff in the relationship. I usually don’t mind the organising but sometimes it feels like I’m babysitting a child rather than married to an equal partner. She also has some trust issues, she doesn’t like me doing things without her and is frequently ‘strange’ or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason). This results in my being very anxious about introducing her to my new friends so I usually try to avoid it. She is also dishonest about little things... stupid little white-lies that really aren’t a big deal but are maddening because they just seem so obvious and ridiculous. None of this except the jealousy is really new; it just seems to matter now, when it didn’t seem so important in the past.
How do I start to sort my feelings out? I’ve tried having a conversation with her about how I’m feeling, but rather than engage me in the conversation or even yell at me she just breaks down into tears, shuts down and makes me feel terrible for bringing it up. This is typically followed by extra clinginess, which just makes me feel worse because I resent her for it. I don’t know what to do, on one hand if this is how it’s going to be forever than I want out and a new life. Complicating things, I’ve found recently that I’m becoming more interested in another woman and although I have not allowed myself to flirt or act on these feelings at all, I find myself making comparisons that I know are unhelpful.
On the other hand though, how do I figure out how much of what I’m feeling is stress from an upcoming job, a tremendous workload, general exhaustion, etc.? I don’t feel this way consistently, sometimes we are happy-ish and despite this post it’s not like she’s a horrible person with no redeeming qualities, in a lot of ways I still think she is the perfect partner for who I was if that makes any sense. She had a horrible childhood (put into foster care), very little constructive family or friend support and has very poor prospects for getting ahead in life outside of the marriage, I often feel like I’m a monster for even thinking about ending our marriage and putting her through more misery.
I setup a throw-away email lostroad@hotmail.co.uk
Figuring this stuff out, and maybe making it better, is what couple's therapy is for.
posted by jon1270 at 8:50 AM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by jon1270 at 8:50 AM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
This results in my being very anxious about introducing her to my new friends so I usually try to avoid it.
If you are interested in saving your marriage (and you may not be, and that's fine), you absolutely cannot continue to do this. Go to therapy and whatnot and whatever everyone else suggests, but one's spouse is a vital avenue for meeting new people in both a personal and professional capacity and for participating in said spouse's life. If your wife is stymied at work and socially, take it upon yourself to use your social capital to improve her situation.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:52 AM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
If you are interested in saving your marriage (and you may not be, and that's fine), you absolutely cannot continue to do this. Go to therapy and whatnot and whatever everyone else suggests, but one's spouse is a vital avenue for meeting new people in both a personal and professional capacity and for participating in said spouse's life. If your wife is stymied at work and socially, take it upon yourself to use your social capital to improve her situation.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:52 AM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
There is a wonderful book I found that helps break this down into manageable parts and almost acts like a worksheet of questions to consider when at this point. (The easy answer would be to say you've grown and evolved and its natural and she may not have evolved along a similar/compatible path) However since your key question is to figure what is the real issue/cause of concern, here's the suggestion:
It’s called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum. I read this book many years ago, and it completely changed how I think about long-term relationships.
First, the book points out the wrong way to make this decision. The wrong way is to use a balance-scale approach, attempting to weigh the pros and cons of staying vs. leaving. Of course, that’s what everyone does. Weighing the pros and cons seems logical, but it doesn’t provide you with the right kind of information you need to make this decision. There will be pros and cons in every relationship, so how do you know if yours are fatal or tolerable or even wonderful? The cons tell you to leave, while the pros tell you to stay. Plus you’re required to predict future pros and cons, so how are you going to predict the future of your relationship? Who’s to say if your problems are temporary or permanent?
Kirshenbaum’s solution is to dump the balance-scale approach and use a diagnostic approach instead. Diagnose the true status of your relationship instead of trying to weigh it on a scale. This will provide you the information you need to make an intelligent decision and to know precisely why you’re making it. If you’re ambivalent, it means your relationship is sick. So discovering the precise nature of the disease seems an intelligent place to begin.
In order to perform a relationship diagnosis, the author offers a series of 36 yes/no questions to ask yourself. Each question is explained very thoroughly with several pages of text. In fact, the diagnostic procedure is essentially the whole book.
Each question is like passing your relationship through a filter. If you pass the filter, you proceed to the next question. If you don’t pass the filter, then the recommendation is that you end your relationship. In order to achieve the recommendation that you should stay together, you must pass through all 36 filters. If even one filter snags you, the recommendation is to leave.
This isn’t as brutal as it sounds though because most of these filters will be very easy for you to pass. My guess is that out of the 36 questions, less than a third will require much thought. Hopefully you can pass filters like, “Does your partner beat you?” and “Is your partner leaving the country for good without you?” without much trouble. If not, you don’t need a book to tell you your relationship is going downhill.
The author’s recommendations are based on observing the post-decision experiences of multiple couples who either stayed together or broke up after suffering from a state of ambivalence related to one of the 36 questions. The author then watched how those relationships turned out in the long run. Did the person making the stay-or-leave decision feel s/he made the correct choice years later? If the couple stayed together, did the relationship blossom into something great or decline into resentment? And if they broke up, did they find new happiness or experience everlasting regret over leaving?
I found this concept extremely valuable, like being able to turn the page of time to see what might happen. The recommendations are based on the author’s observations and her professional opinion, so I don’t recommend you take her advice blindly. However, I personally found all of her conclusions utterly sensible and didn’t find any surprises. I doubt you’ll be terribly surprised to read that a relationship with a drug user is virtually doomed to failure. But what about a relationship with someone you don’t respect? What about a long-distance relationship? Or a relationship with a workaholic who makes 10x your income? Would you like to know how such relationships tend to work out if the couple stays together vs. if they break up?
Kirshenbaum explains that where a break-up is recommended, it’s because most people who chose to stay together in that situation were unhappy, while most people who left were happier for it. So long-term happiness is the key criteria used, meaning the happiness of the individual making the stay-or-leave decision, not the (ex-)partner.
If you’re facing a “too good to leave, too bad to stay” dilemma, I highly recommend this book. Via
posted by infini at 8:53 AM on March 20, 2012 [41 favorites]
It’s called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum. I read this book many years ago, and it completely changed how I think about long-term relationships.
First, the book points out the wrong way to make this decision. The wrong way is to use a balance-scale approach, attempting to weigh the pros and cons of staying vs. leaving. Of course, that’s what everyone does. Weighing the pros and cons seems logical, but it doesn’t provide you with the right kind of information you need to make this decision. There will be pros and cons in every relationship, so how do you know if yours are fatal or tolerable or even wonderful? The cons tell you to leave, while the pros tell you to stay. Plus you’re required to predict future pros and cons, so how are you going to predict the future of your relationship? Who’s to say if your problems are temporary or permanent?
Kirshenbaum’s solution is to dump the balance-scale approach and use a diagnostic approach instead. Diagnose the true status of your relationship instead of trying to weigh it on a scale. This will provide you the information you need to make an intelligent decision and to know precisely why you’re making it. If you’re ambivalent, it means your relationship is sick. So discovering the precise nature of the disease seems an intelligent place to begin.
In order to perform a relationship diagnosis, the author offers a series of 36 yes/no questions to ask yourself. Each question is explained very thoroughly with several pages of text. In fact, the diagnostic procedure is essentially the whole book.
Each question is like passing your relationship through a filter. If you pass the filter, you proceed to the next question. If you don’t pass the filter, then the recommendation is that you end your relationship. In order to achieve the recommendation that you should stay together, you must pass through all 36 filters. If even one filter snags you, the recommendation is to leave.
This isn’t as brutal as it sounds though because most of these filters will be very easy for you to pass. My guess is that out of the 36 questions, less than a third will require much thought. Hopefully you can pass filters like, “Does your partner beat you?” and “Is your partner leaving the country for good without you?” without much trouble. If not, you don’t need a book to tell you your relationship is going downhill.
The author’s recommendations are based on observing the post-decision experiences of multiple couples who either stayed together or broke up after suffering from a state of ambivalence related to one of the 36 questions. The author then watched how those relationships turned out in the long run. Did the person making the stay-or-leave decision feel s/he made the correct choice years later? If the couple stayed together, did the relationship blossom into something great or decline into resentment? And if they broke up, did they find new happiness or experience everlasting regret over leaving?
I found this concept extremely valuable, like being able to turn the page of time to see what might happen. The recommendations are based on the author’s observations and her professional opinion, so I don’t recommend you take her advice blindly. However, I personally found all of her conclusions utterly sensible and didn’t find any surprises. I doubt you’ll be terribly surprised to read that a relationship with a drug user is virtually doomed to failure. But what about a relationship with someone you don’t respect? What about a long-distance relationship? Or a relationship with a workaholic who makes 10x your income? Would you like to know how such relationships tend to work out if the couple stays together vs. if they break up?
Kirshenbaum explains that where a break-up is recommended, it’s because most people who chose to stay together in that situation were unhappy, while most people who left were happier for it. So long-term happiness is the key criteria used, meaning the happiness of the individual making the stay-or-leave decision, not the (ex-)partner.
If you’re facing a “too good to leave, too bad to stay” dilemma, I highly recommend this book. Via
posted by infini at 8:53 AM on March 20, 2012 [41 favorites]
Life is complicated until about 20 minutes after we're dead. After her awful childhood, maybe she thought that she could finally sit back and relax and let someone else take care of things and do all the hard work. It doesn't work that way; we all have to battle tough issues for our entire lives, it never lets up. Unless she acts like a grown-up and is willing to work on these things complicated issues with you (and not just crying in response--that's probably worked for her all her life up until now), there's not a whole lot you can do.
And before everyone here jumps all over you, it's normal to think about another woman but please try to keep that issue separate. Do NOT assume that this other woman will solve all your problems. She won't.
posted by Melismata at 8:56 AM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
And before everyone here jumps all over you, it's normal to think about another woman but please try to keep that issue separate. Do NOT assume that this other woman will solve all your problems. She won't.
posted by Melismata at 8:56 AM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
Like you say, this sounds complicated. Your wife doesn't seem to have any interests or friends, can't seem to drum up the will to better her unpleasant work situation: might she be depressed? Would be willing to give therapy a shot?
She also may be feeling threatened by your new upward trajectory, worried you might leave her behind, and everything you've said sounds like this is a very plausible fear. You don't sound particularly interested in fighting for this relationship to work; from this post, it sounds like you're looking for affirmation to get out.
You don't mention what initially brought you both together--what shared interests/values/desires did you have? Is there any way to revisit some of them to begin rebuilding some common ground? Agreed that if you do indeed want to continue this marriage, couple's therapy sounds like a good start to working out the answer to your question while unpicking all the other variables you mentioned.
posted by smirkette at 9:02 AM on March 20, 2012 [4 favorites]
She also may be feeling threatened by your new upward trajectory, worried you might leave her behind, and everything you've said sounds like this is a very plausible fear. You don't sound particularly interested in fighting for this relationship to work; from this post, it sounds like you're looking for affirmation to get out.
You don't mention what initially brought you both together--what shared interests/values/desires did you have? Is there any way to revisit some of them to begin rebuilding some common ground? Agreed that if you do indeed want to continue this marriage, couple's therapy sounds like a good start to working out the answer to your question while unpicking all the other variables you mentioned.
posted by smirkette at 9:02 AM on March 20, 2012 [4 favorites]
Figuring this stuff out, and maybe making it better, is what couple's therapy is for.
With all due respect, couple's therapy is biased towards keeping couples together. The OP talks about wanting to sort out HIS feelings about wanting to stay in the marriage. The place to do that is in individual therapy.
posted by Wordwoman at 9:09 AM on March 20, 2012 [4 favorites]
With all due respect, couple's therapy is biased towards keeping couples together. The OP talks about wanting to sort out HIS feelings about wanting to stay in the marriage. The place to do that is in individual therapy.
posted by Wordwoman at 9:09 AM on March 20, 2012 [4 favorites]
Going back to school is a huge stress on any relationship. It is natural that you feel like you are on one trajectory and she is on another. My advice would be to start couples therapy, graduate, and give it 6 months if you can. This wouldn't be 6 months of hiding the problem, but 6 months of communicating with the help of a counselor.
On preview, I recommend couples therapy because the op has unvoiced resentment and the partner has jealousy. Those would benefit from communication.
posted by salvia at 9:18 AM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
On preview, I recommend couples therapy because the op has unvoiced resentment and the partner has jealousy. Those would benefit from communication.
posted by salvia at 9:18 AM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
When you decided to go back to school, you changed your life and who you were to become. I assume this was a decision that you discussed and made with your wife because of its immediate impact (less money, less time together, more stress) and long-term impact (more opportunities, possibly more money, different interests, different social circle) on you both. Right? Right?
If you didn't, not fully realizing how much the decision would change your life and so your desires re life-partner characteristics, the time is now. I imagine she does realize how changed you are, and it's frightening. Look, she helped you to realize one of your dreams. Help her to deal with the reality.
tl;dr: couples therapy, stat
posted by likeso at 9:31 AM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
If you didn't, not fully realizing how much the decision would change your life and so your desires re life-partner characteristics, the time is now. I imagine she does realize how changed you are, and it's frightening. Look, she helped you to realize one of your dreams. Help her to deal with the reality.
tl;dr: couples therapy, stat
posted by likeso at 9:31 AM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
I might be the only one but it sounds like you are the problem. It seems like you are blaming her for YOU not loving her.
You say she doesnt want to do anything on her own or does not know how but when she asks you you complain that she asked. What is that ? How do you expect her to learn how to do things if she cant ask her husband for help?
Stop blaming her for your problems.
posted by majortom1981 at 9:39 AM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
You say she doesnt want to do anything on her own or does not know how but when she asks you you complain that she asked. What is that ? How do you expect her to learn how to do things if she cant ask her husband for help?
Stop blaming her for your problems.
posted by majortom1981 at 9:39 AM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
One of the things that's really hard about marriage is that, while everyone grows and changes over time, no two people grow and change in exactly complementary ways. I say this to let you know that the situation you're in is very common, in the broad strokes if not the particulars. It's navigable and survivable and you're going to make it through to a good resolution.
Does that mean staying married? I dont know. But that Kirshembaum book recommended up thread is really good for reality-checking how solvable your problems are, and I recommend it too.
If they are solvable, there are many paths to fixing them, but the key to all of them is getting to the point where you both can lay all the issues out honestly and work on them together in a spirit of love and goodwill. There are so many reasons why this can be hard to do, and this is why counseling can be so valuable-- having a fair and impartial and helpful observer mediate those tough discussions. Really, it is totally worth the effort to go, together.
I will tell you, in the last year my marriage really went through the fire. Last spring at this time my husband was preparing to move out and I was sure we wouldn't make it. But miracle of miracles, we toughed it out and found the way to really open to each other, to really take on the hard stuff head on, and learned so much along the way. It sounds like you feel like I felt-- recognizing objectively that there's a lot that's good, but being so stuck in the hard parts and not seeing the way clear. I won't lie, pressing the problems to the point where they had to get dealt with was the most painful thing I've ever experienced, but it needed to be done to break through my husbands conflict avoidance and make real change. So you may need to do similar, put your foot down, insist on engagement and change and counseling if things are to change for you.
You can't make her change, though-- you can only say, we can't keep doing things the way they've been, and in a loving way, ask her to change with you. It's a risk, but a worthy one...
Good luck to you both.
One last thing-- the other woman is the grass looking greener. Put that aside and sort out your marriage on it's own merits. Harder, but the best route. You know that.
posted by Sublimity at 9:48 AM on March 20, 2012 [6 favorites]
Does that mean staying married? I dont know. But that Kirshembaum book recommended up thread is really good for reality-checking how solvable your problems are, and I recommend it too.
If they are solvable, there are many paths to fixing them, but the key to all of them is getting to the point where you both can lay all the issues out honestly and work on them together in a spirit of love and goodwill. There are so many reasons why this can be hard to do, and this is why counseling can be so valuable-- having a fair and impartial and helpful observer mediate those tough discussions. Really, it is totally worth the effort to go, together.
I will tell you, in the last year my marriage really went through the fire. Last spring at this time my husband was preparing to move out and I was sure we wouldn't make it. But miracle of miracles, we toughed it out and found the way to really open to each other, to really take on the hard stuff head on, and learned so much along the way. It sounds like you feel like I felt-- recognizing objectively that there's a lot that's good, but being so stuck in the hard parts and not seeing the way clear. I won't lie, pressing the problems to the point where they had to get dealt with was the most painful thing I've ever experienced, but it needed to be done to break through my husbands conflict avoidance and make real change. So you may need to do similar, put your foot down, insist on engagement and change and counseling if things are to change for you.
You can't make her change, though-- you can only say, we can't keep doing things the way they've been, and in a loving way, ask her to change with you. It's a risk, but a worthy one...
Good luck to you both.
One last thing-- the other woman is the grass looking greener. Put that aside and sort out your marriage on it's own merits. Harder, but the best route. You know that.
posted by Sublimity at 9:48 AM on March 20, 2012 [6 favorites]
finally got the courage up to just go back to school full-time. I’m into the last 6 months with an excellent job waiting for me at the end. My wife has stayed at her job while I studied. I had enough savings and investments to pay the mortgage and tuition, while her job pays for the cars and groceries. Money is tight but we’re not starving.
So, has it been the last 4 years your wife has stayed in her job to support you as a student? I know you said your savings were paying the mortgage but could you really have made it like you did without your wife's contribution?
Is it really fair to accept the support of your wife, which at least in part enabled you to go and have this experience that has probably changed you in many ways, and then fault her for not having changed with you, AND fault her for being clingy and having trust issues as she senses you've changed and become less happy with your old life and your old wife?
She also has some trust issues, she doesn’t like me doing things without her and is frequently ‘strange’ or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason). ... Complicating things, I’ve found recently that I’m becoming more interested in another woman and although I have not allowed myself to flirt or act on these feelings at all, I find myself making comparisons that I know are unhelpful.
So this is not just her having irrational "trust issues." She feels weird because she's sensing something that's real. Even if she's not picking up on your specific crush, she's sensing something that's real. Is it fair to castigate her for that?
Can you take some amount of time, maybe a few months to a year, and make that time all about supporting her, like these past few years you've been in school have probably been all about supporting you?
That doesn't mean "all about changing her" or "all about getting her to grow in ways you want her to grow." It just means asking her, regularly, in a non-pressure way, what she wants, what she needs, what she hopes for.
posted by cairdeas at 9:48 AM on March 20, 2012 [58 favorites]
So, has it been the last 4 years your wife has stayed in her job to support you as a student? I know you said your savings were paying the mortgage but could you really have made it like you did without your wife's contribution?
Is it really fair to accept the support of your wife, which at least in part enabled you to go and have this experience that has probably changed you in many ways, and then fault her for not having changed with you, AND fault her for being clingy and having trust issues as she senses you've changed and become less happy with your old life and your old wife?
She also has some trust issues, she doesn’t like me doing things without her and is frequently ‘strange’ or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason). ... Complicating things, I’ve found recently that I’m becoming more interested in another woman and although I have not allowed myself to flirt or act on these feelings at all, I find myself making comparisons that I know are unhelpful.
So this is not just her having irrational "trust issues." She feels weird because she's sensing something that's real. Even if she's not picking up on your specific crush, she's sensing something that's real. Is it fair to castigate her for that?
Can you take some amount of time, maybe a few months to a year, and make that time all about supporting her, like these past few years you've been in school have probably been all about supporting you?
That doesn't mean "all about changing her" or "all about getting her to grow in ways you want her to grow." It just means asking her, regularly, in a non-pressure way, what she wants, what she needs, what she hopes for.
posted by cairdeas at 9:48 AM on March 20, 2012 [58 favorites]
I agree you should work on yourself for six months and see how you and she sort out, and as best you can, try not to compare her to what you wish she was doing.
In the end, she might need some outside help- she sounds depressed and anxious, and a good therapist would be able to help. (I am going to guess she could profit by having a hobby, too.)
From my point of view, this is coming across as pretty self-absorbed. She's putting you through school? She's doing the daily drudge while you do new, exciting things, and meet exciting young things? I can see how she'd feel insecure, and the fact that you're posting this means she's right to feel that way.
I am not one to talk, to be honest, but my idealistic way of viewing marriage means that her unhappiness is both of your problem to solve, so far as it's realistic to do so. So far, it seems like everything's her fault, and that's almost never the case. Have you talked to her in a how-can-WE-solve-this kind of way about what she wants from life and the relationship?
posted by small_ruminant at 9:51 AM on March 20, 2012 [3 favorites]
In the end, she might need some outside help- she sounds depressed and anxious, and a good therapist would be able to help. (I am going to guess she could profit by having a hobby, too.)
From my point of view, this is coming across as pretty self-absorbed. She's putting you through school? She's doing the daily drudge while you do new, exciting things, and meet exciting young things? I can see how she'd feel insecure, and the fact that you're posting this means she's right to feel that way.
I am not one to talk, to be honest, but my idealistic way of viewing marriage means that her unhappiness is both of your problem to solve, so far as it's realistic to do so. So far, it seems like everything's her fault, and that's almost never the case. Have you talked to her in a how-can-WE-solve-this kind of way about what she wants from life and the relationship?
posted by small_ruminant at 9:51 AM on March 20, 2012 [3 favorites]
Or, what cairdeas said better.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:52 AM on March 20, 2012
posted by small_ruminant at 9:52 AM on March 20, 2012
I handle all of the finances and organisational stuff in the relationship. I usually don’t mind the organising but sometimes it feels like I’m babysitting
If this is the status quo, and she has always, or at least typically, responded to conflict by crying or shutting her eyes and being resolute about not engaging with you, and uses white lies to maintain her comfort level, then no wonder you are tired.
If I'm reading right and she was always this way, couples therapy is the answer. If you don't have time or money, at least some workbooks or online exercises. If she's not seeing that this doesn't work for you... Well, go through those filters, I guess.
One thing though - I sympathize with your wish for your wife to change from a job she hates, but she may not be built for the path you are on. Let her know it's okay if she doesn't have a career like the one you have lined up.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:06 AM on March 20, 2012 [2 favorites]
If this is the status quo, and she has always, or at least typically, responded to conflict by crying or shutting her eyes and being resolute about not engaging with you, and uses white lies to maintain her comfort level, then no wonder you are tired.
If I'm reading right and she was always this way, couples therapy is the answer. If you don't have time or money, at least some workbooks or online exercises. If she's not seeing that this doesn't work for you... Well, go through those filters, I guess.
One thing though - I sympathize with your wish for your wife to change from a job she hates, but she may not be built for the path you are on. Let her know it's okay if she doesn't have a career like the one you have lined up.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:06 AM on March 20, 2012 [2 favorites]
cairdeas laid it out much more clearly than I did. Make no mistake, my oblique comment meant: it's your turn to support your wife. What is her dream? Trying to make her marriage work, maybe?
posted by likeso at 10:17 AM on March 20, 2012
posted by likeso at 10:17 AM on March 20, 2012
This all sounds selfish from your end, like you just expect her to pull herself up by her bootstraps or something, when really, she sounds like she is struggling (even though that hasn't registered with you, yet.)
Try being extra kind towards her while you explore couples therapy. Or just pull the trigger and get out.
Somehow, you're holding her back, too, even if you don't see it. You got where you're at now TOGETHER.
I have no answers, just a little insight. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 10:19 AM on March 20, 2012 [2 favorites]
Try being extra kind towards her while you explore couples therapy. Or just pull the trigger and get out.
Somehow, you're holding her back, too, even if you don't see it. You got where you're at now TOGETHER.
I have no answers, just a little insight. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 10:19 AM on March 20, 2012 [2 favorites]
Complicating things, I’ve found recently that I’m becoming more interested in another woman and although I have not allowed myself to flirt or act on these feelings at all, I find myself making comparisons that I know are unhelpful.
Ya know, it sounds to me more like you're getting interested in other women, now that some may seem more interested in you, and your mind is looking for reasons to ditch your wife. Your wife is also probably trying to deal with all your new found female friends, something you've never had before.
IMHO, it sounds like you're ready to split but you have to convince yourself with a list of her deficiencies (above), none of which sound insurmountable to me but like normal stressors of changing circumstances.
I'd wait it out and/or get marriage counseling, but methinks you're convinced you have better prospects out there, and I have a feeling you will neither wait nor get counseling. In which case, please do not blame your wife for sensing where this was gonna go.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 10:26 AM on March 20, 2012 [12 favorites]
Ya know, it sounds to me more like you're getting interested in other women, now that some may seem more interested in you, and your mind is looking for reasons to ditch your wife. Your wife is also probably trying to deal with all your new found female friends, something you've never had before.
IMHO, it sounds like you're ready to split but you have to convince yourself with a list of her deficiencies (above), none of which sound insurmountable to me but like normal stressors of changing circumstances.
I'd wait it out and/or get marriage counseling, but methinks you're convinced you have better prospects out there, and I have a feeling you will neither wait nor get counseling. In which case, please do not blame your wife for sensing where this was gonna go.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 10:26 AM on March 20, 2012 [12 favorites]
Have you outgrown her?
More to the point, are you growing and flourishing while she is remaining stagnant?
posted by Shouraku at 10:26 AM on March 20, 2012
More to the point, are you growing and flourishing while she is remaining stagnant?
posted by Shouraku at 10:26 AM on March 20, 2012
or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason)
This popped out at me. I think you know the reason, which is that you're looking for emotional relationships with women outside your marriage, and she can sense it too. I tend toward friendships with people of the opposite sex, so I know how innocent and platonic is can be, but the way you phrased this struck me as odd. I have a hunch that you've already checked out of your marriage emotionally and are having a hard time coming to terms with that. That much is obvious from your question, I guess, but I think you might want to think longer about why many of your new friends are female. Sounds like your wife is jealous with good reason, so you might want to take some responsibility for that instead of putting it all on her.
posted by sunshinesky at 10:27 AM on March 20, 2012 [18 favorites]
This popped out at me. I think you know the reason, which is that you're looking for emotional relationships with women outside your marriage, and she can sense it too. I tend toward friendships with people of the opposite sex, so I know how innocent and platonic is can be, but the way you phrased this struck me as odd. I have a hunch that you've already checked out of your marriage emotionally and are having a hard time coming to terms with that. That much is obvious from your question, I guess, but I think you might want to think longer about why many of your new friends are female. Sounds like your wife is jealous with good reason, so you might want to take some responsibility for that instead of putting it all on her.
posted by sunshinesky at 10:27 AM on March 20, 2012 [18 favorites]
More to the point, are you growing and flourishing while she is remaining stagnant?
Or has she put her dreams on hold to support you, and now you're resenting her for not "keeping up"?
Because I know a lot of ex-couples in which one partner has put their plans on hold in order to forward another partner's plans, and then at the completion of Partner A's plans (in my circle, this is usually medical school or an MFA degree), instead of it being Partner B's turn, Partner A takes their new shiny education and lifestyle and finds a new partner to share them with.
This may not be you; I don't know you, and I don't know your wife. But it's a very common pattern in marriages, so it's probably worth thinking about whether any of it applies to you.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:13 AM on March 20, 2012 [45 favorites]
Or has she put her dreams on hold to support you, and now you're resenting her for not "keeping up"?
Because I know a lot of ex-couples in which one partner has put their plans on hold in order to forward another partner's plans, and then at the completion of Partner A's plans (in my circle, this is usually medical school or an MFA degree), instead of it being Partner B's turn, Partner A takes their new shiny education and lifestyle and finds a new partner to share them with.
This may not be you; I don't know you, and I don't know your wife. But it's a very common pattern in marriages, so it's probably worth thinking about whether any of it applies to you.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:13 AM on March 20, 2012 [45 favorites]
therapy for you and therapy for you and your wife together. this is a marriage. at least try to make it work before you bail.
posted by violetk at 11:14 AM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by violetk at 11:14 AM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've seen the same thing as Sidhedevil, so often that it's become a cliche.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:23 AM on March 20, 2012
posted by small_ruminant at 11:23 AM on March 20, 2012
or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason)
After a little thought, I have to agree with sunshinesky. I often have friends of the opposite sex, but I've begun to realize lately that a good reason for that is that it's typically easier, because it can begin with attraction, however unacknowledged, and the emotional intimacy and honesty come more readily and feel more "satisfying." There is a reason for the "work spouses" phenomenon. I don't know. Ignore me if I'm wrong, but the "for some reason" seems to indicate that you sense that the difference between these friendships and your same sex friendships is intriguing-- that you get fulfillment out of them that you don't get from same sex relationships-- rather than just an innocent difference.
From Wikipedia: "'Work marriage' appears to be a genuinely caring relationship fostered by the propinquity effect and associated with love-like feelings and possibly limerence. Some 'work spouses' admit that sexual attraction between them is present, but is not acted upon, and the sexuality is 'channeled' into a productive collaboration."
I can say that if I were working a menial job in order to help my partner make it through school or to a more exciting job, where he was meeting people more successful than me, who his "new self" seemed to have more in common (and more propinquity) with, I would feel incredibly insecure. It's very very obvious when a partner loves you through thick and thin and wants you to be by their side in their new life, and when they're mostly concerned with their own advancement and see you as an indifferent part of their routine. If you don't love her, you really need to make up your mind.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:51 AM on March 20, 2012 [4 favorites]
After a little thought, I have to agree with sunshinesky. I often have friends of the opposite sex, but I've begun to realize lately that a good reason for that is that it's typically easier, because it can begin with attraction, however unacknowledged, and the emotional intimacy and honesty come more readily and feel more "satisfying." There is a reason for the "work spouses" phenomenon. I don't know. Ignore me if I'm wrong, but the "for some reason" seems to indicate that you sense that the difference between these friendships and your same sex friendships is intriguing-- that you get fulfillment out of them that you don't get from same sex relationships-- rather than just an innocent difference.
From Wikipedia: "'Work marriage' appears to be a genuinely caring relationship fostered by the propinquity effect and associated with love-like feelings and possibly limerence. Some 'work spouses' admit that sexual attraction between them is present, but is not acted upon, and the sexuality is 'channeled' into a productive collaboration."
I can say that if I were working a menial job in order to help my partner make it through school or to a more exciting job, where he was meeting people more successful than me, who his "new self" seemed to have more in common (and more propinquity) with, I would feel incredibly insecure. It's very very obvious when a partner loves you through thick and thin and wants you to be by their side in their new life, and when they're mostly concerned with their own advancement and see you as an indifferent part of their routine. If you don't love her, you really need to make up your mind.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:51 AM on March 20, 2012 [4 favorites]
So to summarize how this sounds to me. Your wife has help support you while you got an education which has made you think you are better than her. You are now interested in another woman but it's all your wife's fault and you would like permission to leave her.
You didn't mention at any point if you still even love your wife, if you still love your wife and you want to make it work do what everyone here has rightly suggested and go see a counselor. You both need to find ways to communicate with each other to find out if you both even still want to be in the marriage. Of course your wife is clingy she senses you are moving on and starting to "check out" of the marriage, to me you haven't given any indication your wife should think otherwise. You need to now step up and support her while she goes and figures out what she wants to do so you can work on your relationship as equals, or cop out and be the marriage cliche that Sidhedevil so clearly explained.
posted by wwax at 11:57 AM on March 20, 2012 [12 favorites]
You didn't mention at any point if you still even love your wife, if you still love your wife and you want to make it work do what everyone here has rightly suggested and go see a counselor. You both need to find ways to communicate with each other to find out if you both even still want to be in the marriage. Of course your wife is clingy she senses you are moving on and starting to "check out" of the marriage, to me you haven't given any indication your wife should think otherwise. You need to now step up and support her while she goes and figures out what she wants to do so you can work on your relationship as equals, or cop out and be the marriage cliche that Sidhedevil so clearly explained.
posted by wwax at 11:57 AM on March 20, 2012 [12 favorites]
How do I start to sort my feelings out? I’ve tried having a conversation with her about how I’m feeling, but rather than engage me in the conversation or even yell at me she just breaks down into tears, shuts down and makes me feel terrible for bringing it up. This is typically followed by extra clinginess, which just makes me feel worse because I resent her for it.
Yeah, it takes two to tango. Wife has some things to answer for too. This is why people are recommending couples therapist or some sort of mediator in order to give you tools and get the communication happening ... not to tell you who is right or what you should feel.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 12:10 PM on March 20, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it takes two to tango. Wife has some things to answer for too. This is why people are recommending couples therapist or some sort of mediator in order to give you tools and get the communication happening ... not to tell you who is right or what you should feel.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 12:10 PM on March 20, 2012 [3 favorites]
Stop spending any time alone with other women unless it's strictly necessary for school, and then do it in a public place, in a mixed-gender group if at all possible. You obviously can't handle it otherwise. Your wife doesn't like your new female "friends" for good reason. Don't talk to the woman you have the crush on unless it's school- related and re-focus your social energy toward your wife, making her the woman whose needs and wishes take priority over your relationships with anyone else.
Your wife is supposed to be the most special woman in your life. Stop treating her like a tag-along and more like a precious partner and maybe you'll stop thinking of her so negatively. Whatever faults *she* has, they cannot possibly be addressed constructively while your priorities are so ridiculously out of whack.
posted by devymetal at 12:13 PM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
Your wife is supposed to be the most special woman in your life. Stop treating her like a tag-along and more like a precious partner and maybe you'll stop thinking of her so negatively. Whatever faults *she* has, they cannot possibly be addressed constructively while your priorities are so ridiculously out of whack.
posted by devymetal at 12:13 PM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
One more thought:
She refuses to do anything meaningful for herself. She hates her job, but won’t look at classified ads, she doesn’t seem interested in finding personal relationships with new people outside of our marriage, and she doesn’t want to learn anything for herself
It sounds like your wife is suffering at least in part from a lack of confidence. Have you ever considered that your checking out and pulling away over the last ... how long ago did it really start? .. might be a direct cause of that lack of confidence and feeling secure? Change can be really frightening. Have you ever considered that maybe if she felt like you were really in it for keeps with her, if you were really going to always have her back like she had yours, rather than pulling away to these exciting new experiences and ideas and babes, she might feel secure enough to make some changes?
posted by cairdeas at 12:32 PM on March 20, 2012 [8 favorites]
She refuses to do anything meaningful for herself. She hates her job, but won’t look at classified ads, she doesn’t seem interested in finding personal relationships with new people outside of our marriage, and she doesn’t want to learn anything for herself
It sounds like your wife is suffering at least in part from a lack of confidence. Have you ever considered that your checking out and pulling away over the last ... how long ago did it really start? .. might be a direct cause of that lack of confidence and feeling secure? Change can be really frightening. Have you ever considered that maybe if she felt like you were really in it for keeps with her, if you were really going to always have her back like she had yours, rather than pulling away to these exciting new experiences and ideas and babes, she might feel secure enough to make some changes?
posted by cairdeas at 12:32 PM on March 20, 2012 [8 favorites]
I want to second that you follow the line of thought cairdeas is suggesting. I am normally a strong and independent person. Three years of a relationship with a partner who had emotionally checked out on me turned me into an unrecognizably clingy and fearful mess. There is nothing like being in love with someone who does not love or respect you to help destroy your confidence in yourself. It really kept me from growing; I had no idea what I was doing wrong to make him not love me, so I was afraid to try anything he didn't approve of beforehand.
You mentioned that she won't try anything on her own and instead asks you first; could this be because she's afraid you'll love her even less than you do now? If you still love her, you need to find ways to show her. If you don't, it would be kinder to let her go. You think she can't survive on her own; I have to say that she's better off without you if you don't love her.
posted by sockomatic at 1:02 PM on March 20, 2012 [18 favorites]
You mentioned that she won't try anything on her own and instead asks you first; could this be because she's afraid you'll love her even less than you do now? If you still love her, you need to find ways to show her. If you don't, it would be kinder to let her go. You think she can't survive on her own; I have to say that she's better off without you if you don't love her.
posted by sockomatic at 1:02 PM on March 20, 2012 [18 favorites]
"I’m also finding myself increasingly turned-off mentally and emotionally from her. She refuses to do anything meaningful for herself. She hates her job, but won’t look at classified ads, she doesn’t seem interested in finding personal relationships with new people outside of our marriage, and she doesn’t want to learn anything for herself... she’s always asking me to explain things, despite my many efforts to point her at resources so she can figure something out for herself. I handle all of the finances and organisational stuff in the relationship. I usually don’t mind the organising but sometimes it feels like I’m babysitting a child rather than married to an equal partner. She also has some trust issues, she doesn’t like me doing things without her and is frequently ‘strange’ or extremely clingy if in the company of some of my new friends... particularly if they are female (which many of them are for some reason). This results in my being very anxious about introducing her to my new friends so I usually try to avoid it. She is also dishonest about little things... stupid little white-lies that really aren’t a big deal but are maddening because they just seem so obvious and ridiculous. None of this except the jealousy is really new; it just seems to matter now, when it didn’t seem so important in the past."
Sorry for cutting and pasting this whole bit- I don't know how to do the linking or html. But the whole paragraph did really strike me. I've been this way towards the end of a couple of relationships... clingy, anxious, needy, jealous, disinterested in cultivating things. In looking back it seems like the clingy needy bit was me not wanting things to end and freaking out that they were... the not cultivating things (in retrospect) was because it was a bit of a winter in my soul and when the stormy stuff passed, and what needed to die had died... then I always bounced back... I'd embrace the new life- meet new people- and do the things that I couldn't at the time.
posted by misspony at 1:11 PM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sorry for cutting and pasting this whole bit- I don't know how to do the linking or html. But the whole paragraph did really strike me. I've been this way towards the end of a couple of relationships... clingy, anxious, needy, jealous, disinterested in cultivating things. In looking back it seems like the clingy needy bit was me not wanting things to end and freaking out that they were... the not cultivating things (in retrospect) was because it was a bit of a winter in my soul and when the stormy stuff passed, and what needed to die had died... then I always bounced back... I'd embrace the new life- meet new people- and do the things that I couldn't at the time.
posted by misspony at 1:11 PM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
So. The way you speak about your wife is laced with condescension and contempt--do you speak to her that way? Could it be that you're sort of just asking the Internet for permission to leave her?
If you do love her, and if you want to fix your marriage, cairdeas made great suggestions that I won't echo, except to say that you should do the decent thing and drop the dubiously-demarcated "female friendships" while you work on fixing things. Focus on the person at hand and stop distracting yourself with unopened doors or potentially-greener grass.
If you're ready to leave, then I think you owe it to your wife to be honest with her about that as soon as possible. I also think you owe it to her to pay her back for all the money she earned to support you through your program. With interest (just like you would pay any other lender for student aid).
posted by anonnymoose at 1:47 PM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
If you do love her, and if you want to fix your marriage, cairdeas made great suggestions that I won't echo, except to say that you should do the decent thing and drop the dubiously-demarcated "female friendships" while you work on fixing things. Focus on the person at hand and stop distracting yourself with unopened doors or potentially-greener grass.
If you're ready to leave, then I think you owe it to your wife to be honest with her about that as soon as possible. I also think you owe it to her to pay her back for all the money she earned to support you through your program. With interest (just like you would pay any other lender for student aid).
posted by anonnymoose at 1:47 PM on March 20, 2012 [7 favorites]
P.S. Waiting until she's supported you for another six months and your program is over to leave her will earn you the kind of uniquely-reviled jerk status that women love to share with each other as cautionary horror stories. Be a stand-up guy.
posted by anonnymoose at 1:50 PM on March 20, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by anonnymoose at 1:50 PM on March 20, 2012 [9 favorites]
Also, incidentally... in those relationships I'd subsidized the guy financially in some way... and always looking back I felt like a mug for putting myself second because I thought I'd get it back in some way later or in a different way... but some people just like to take and I have to look after myself and my personal well being first. Great friends have taught me that.
But I've seen it where a guy will go on and on about how their girlfriend should have friends- the goal, however, isn't that she make friends- its to make her feel inferior and actually prevent it....
because he knows if she went out and got some then they'd buy some wine, whisk her away promptly and explain to her that she's been wasting her gorgeous self on some bellend, supporting him through his "career false starts" that took a DECADE and how all the girls on his course probably think he's a lame skeeze who talks to much (this topic would feature heavily) ...and she could:
DO BETTER...
get a VIBRATOR...
and DTMFA.
posted by misspony at 2:17 PM on March 20, 2012 [3 favorites]
But I've seen it where a guy will go on and on about how their girlfriend should have friends- the goal, however, isn't that she make friends- its to make her feel inferior and actually prevent it....
because he knows if she went out and got some then they'd buy some wine, whisk her away promptly and explain to her that she's been wasting her gorgeous self on some bellend, supporting him through his "career false starts" that took a DECADE and how all the girls on his course probably think he's a lame skeeze who talks to much (this topic would feature heavily) ...and she could:
DO BETTER...
get a VIBRATOR...
and DTMFA.
posted by misspony at 2:17 PM on March 20, 2012 [3 favorites]
You say that the spark has died, but it seems like you're doing very little to keep things sparky. It sounds like you are actively sabotaging the spark.
Forget about the other woman and try to breathe some life into your marriage.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 2:26 PM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
Forget about the other woman and try to breathe some life into your marriage.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 2:26 PM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
I am not seeing the part of this question where she is supporting him, beyond her working while his financial contributions come from his savings and investments.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 3:27 PM on March 20, 2012
posted by Lesser Shrew at 3:27 PM on March 20, 2012
Ok, So I set up this puppet account so I could comment on this thread... hope that's ok.
I wanted to thank everyone for their comments, constructive and not so constructive...
I will be picking the recommended book up on my way home tonight and using the schools counselling service so I have someone to speak to in person.
Regarding some of the comments:
- I do care for my wife a great deal, it doesn't really come across that well as I tried to keep it very concise so as not to have a 8000 word post that no-one would read and instead it feels like a very cold and aloof post. I am most certainly not simply "asking the internet for permission to leave". I am asking how to begin to unravel this huge tangle of stress and emotions that's bouncing around in my head.
- I am well aware of the cliched scenario of the jerk who uses his/her SO to get to a new place in life and promptly fucks off. The thought that I might fit this scenario has been tearing me up inside. No matter how this continues or ends, I have full intentions of supporting her through the next phase of her/our life. I would NOT take advantage and run.
-I agree that she has confidence, self-esteem, and anxiety issues, I would also agree that I have not been helpful (understatement, I know). I do not know how to suggest to her that she might benefit from speaking to someone (therapist) other than to encourage her to see someone WITH me and hope that the therapist suggests meeting her one on one.
- The jealousy issues I mentioned are not limited to my female friends. She is not keen/comfortable with me spending time away from her with anyone else, male or female. The jealousy seems new to me but really over the last ten years we have been almost completely reliant on each other, doing everything as a couple and almost nothing as individuals. It's also not like I'm out every night with new friends. I get together with people outside of our traditional "wife and I" social circle once every couple of months, six weeks at max and usually only for an hour or two worth of drinks. The rest of my social time is spent with her, and with "our" friends and her.
-I know the other woman is simply a "grass is greener" fantasy, she is a good friend of whom I have only started thinking in these terms in the last month or two. I would be surprised if anyone suspected.
-Going back to school at my age when everybody you meet is at least a decade younger than you is not "fun and exciting and full of 'babes'". It's an assload of work, while you feel like the awkward old fart sitting at the front of the class.
-Misspony: would you be less judgemental about my career false starts if I told you one of them I dropped because it threatened our marriage and she asked me to (in fact, left me until I had quit it)? The other I dropped because I hated it and it's what prompted me to go back to school so, yeah that one's on me. I would LOVE it, if she would get out and do something for herself and got some new friends that are just hers. I have no desire to keep her under the heel of my boot as you imply. I want to come home to someone who is as excited about their life as I am and has things going on for themselves that don't depend exclusively on me.
I don't care if she wants to be a factory worker, hairdresser, dogwalker, lawyer, etc. As long as she's happy, but I do care that she won't get off the couch and look into some of these things for herself. I can only provide so much information and encouragement, she does nothing and I get frustrated and start to check out.
posted by lostroad at 3:28 PM on March 20, 2012 [2 favorites]
I wanted to thank everyone for their comments, constructive and not so constructive...
I will be picking the recommended book up on my way home tonight and using the schools counselling service so I have someone to speak to in person.
Regarding some of the comments:
- I do care for my wife a great deal, it doesn't really come across that well as I tried to keep it very concise so as not to have a 8000 word post that no-one would read and instead it feels like a very cold and aloof post. I am most certainly not simply "asking the internet for permission to leave". I am asking how to begin to unravel this huge tangle of stress and emotions that's bouncing around in my head.
- I am well aware of the cliched scenario of the jerk who uses his/her SO to get to a new place in life and promptly fucks off. The thought that I might fit this scenario has been tearing me up inside. No matter how this continues or ends, I have full intentions of supporting her through the next phase of her/our life. I would NOT take advantage and run.
-I agree that she has confidence, self-esteem, and anxiety issues, I would also agree that I have not been helpful (understatement, I know). I do not know how to suggest to her that she might benefit from speaking to someone (therapist) other than to encourage her to see someone WITH me and hope that the therapist suggests meeting her one on one.
- The jealousy issues I mentioned are not limited to my female friends. She is not keen/comfortable with me spending time away from her with anyone else, male or female. The jealousy seems new to me but really over the last ten years we have been almost completely reliant on each other, doing everything as a couple and almost nothing as individuals. It's also not like I'm out every night with new friends. I get together with people outside of our traditional "wife and I" social circle once every couple of months, six weeks at max and usually only for an hour or two worth of drinks. The rest of my social time is spent with her, and with "our" friends and her.
-I know the other woman is simply a "grass is greener" fantasy, she is a good friend of whom I have only started thinking in these terms in the last month or two. I would be surprised if anyone suspected.
-Going back to school at my age when everybody you meet is at least a decade younger than you is not "fun and exciting and full of 'babes'". It's an assload of work, while you feel like the awkward old fart sitting at the front of the class.
-Misspony: would you be less judgemental about my career false starts if I told you one of them I dropped because it threatened our marriage and she asked me to (in fact, left me until I had quit it)? The other I dropped because I hated it and it's what prompted me to go back to school so, yeah that one's on me. I would LOVE it, if she would get out and do something for herself and got some new friends that are just hers. I have no desire to keep her under the heel of my boot as you imply. I want to come home to someone who is as excited about their life as I am and has things going on for themselves that don't depend exclusively on me.
I don't care if she wants to be a factory worker, hairdresser, dogwalker, lawyer, etc. As long as she's happy, but I do care that she won't get off the couch and look into some of these things for herself. I can only provide so much information and encouragement, she does nothing and I get frustrated and start to check out.
posted by lostroad at 3:28 PM on March 20, 2012 [2 favorites]
I don't know lostroad... this update has a bit more compassion, if that's the right word, but in your question it sounded like you were keen to give yourself credit while taking credit away from her, in a way that seemed really selfish. For example:
YOU pay the mortgage and your tuition, HER JOB pays for cars and groceries. You give yourself credit for putting a roof over your heads, but you don't even give her the credit for what she's contributing... you say its HER JOB that pays... not her, her job. And you make it sound like your things are more noble in the sense...giving yourself credit for paying for your education- but could you have done it without a car and food? maybe, but would you have been taking public transport and eating ramen?
YOU do all the finance and organizational stuff and feel like a babysitter. What about the housework? You don't mention that at all, and that made me assume, based on your tone- that she probably does it.
And questioning her motives for engaging (tagging along) in activities but challenging her genuine interest. Every relationship book on the planet has at least a sentence or two about doing things with a partner that you wouldn't ordinarily fancy.
Finally, saying that SHE wouldn't have much chance of getting ahead in life outside of the marriage. I wouldn't like my partner to think that little of me... I'd hope they'd give me some credit.
Finally, you say NOTHING actually good about her, just that she has no non-redeeming qualities and she was the perfect partner for who YOU were.
At the end of the day, it doesn't sound like she feels SAFE in this relationship... and from the sound of her background that's not surprising. So seconding counselling and therapy.
BUT, if she was my girlie mate- I would stand by my spin on you, because she honestly could do better- until I heard evidence to the contrary.
posted by misspony at 4:43 PM on March 20, 2012 [6 favorites]
YOU pay the mortgage and your tuition, HER JOB pays for cars and groceries. You give yourself credit for putting a roof over your heads, but you don't even give her the credit for what she's contributing... you say its HER JOB that pays... not her, her job. And you make it sound like your things are more noble in the sense...giving yourself credit for paying for your education- but could you have done it without a car and food? maybe, but would you have been taking public transport and eating ramen?
YOU do all the finance and organizational stuff and feel like a babysitter. What about the housework? You don't mention that at all, and that made me assume, based on your tone- that she probably does it.
And questioning her motives for engaging (tagging along) in activities but challenging her genuine interest. Every relationship book on the planet has at least a sentence or two about doing things with a partner that you wouldn't ordinarily fancy.
Finally, saying that SHE wouldn't have much chance of getting ahead in life outside of the marriage. I wouldn't like my partner to think that little of me... I'd hope they'd give me some credit.
Finally, you say NOTHING actually good about her, just that she has no non-redeeming qualities and she was the perfect partner for who YOU were.
At the end of the day, it doesn't sound like she feels SAFE in this relationship... and from the sound of her background that's not surprising. So seconding counselling and therapy.
BUT, if she was my girlie mate- I would stand by my spin on you, because she honestly could do better- until I heard evidence to the contrary.
posted by misspony at 4:43 PM on March 20, 2012 [6 favorites]
For the past six months or so I have been feeling increasingly anxious, unhappy and confused......I’m into the last 6 months with an excellent job waiting for me at the end.
There's a connection there, and your wife sees it. As the end of school and the beginning of your excellent new career grow closer, you are moving farther away from her. She knows it, that's why she's newly "jealous" and anxious about your new friends.
She's being replaced, and she knows it. It's not surprising at all that she is depressed about her vocational and social situations when she's supported your efforts to create new vocational/social opportunities for yourself and feeling you pull away from her so that you get to head down that new road unencumbered by someone who reminds you of your pre-accomplished past.
posted by headnsouth at 4:49 PM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's a connection there, and your wife sees it. As the end of school and the beginning of your excellent new career grow closer, you are moving farther away from her. She knows it, that's why she's newly "jealous" and anxious about your new friends.
She's being replaced, and she knows it. It's not surprising at all that she is depressed about her vocational and social situations when she's supported your efforts to create new vocational/social opportunities for yourself and feeling you pull away from her so that you get to head down that new road unencumbered by someone who reminds you of your pre-accomplished past.
posted by headnsouth at 4:49 PM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]
-I know the other woman is simply a "grass is greener" fantasy, she is a good friend of whom I have only started thinking in these terms in the last month or two. I would be surprised if anyone suspected.
Surprise! Your wife suspects. She may not even know who the other woman is, or what your current relationship is, but she suspects. And bingo, she's right.
posted by headnsouth at 4:52 PM on March 20, 2012 [8 favorites]
Surprise! Your wife suspects. She may not even know who the other woman is, or what your current relationship is, but she suspects. And bingo, she's right.
posted by headnsouth at 4:52 PM on March 20, 2012 [8 favorites]
I don't care if she wants to be a factory worker, hairdresser, dogwalker, lawyer, etc. As long as she's happy, but I do care that she won't get off the couch and look into some of these things for herself. I can only provide so much information and encouragement, she does nothing and I get frustrated and start to check out.
I get that you care about her, but you have admitted that you are willing to abandon her because she isn't the person you want her to be. This is unlikely to be something you can hide from her and it's got to be something that makes it harder for her to want to try anything new. When I was in her position, all I wanted was for my partner to love me as I was. I also had fears of abandonment and was raised by someone who was fostered as a child. Trying to improve my career seemed really unimportant in the face of the fact that my partner did not like me for who I was. It's good that you want more for her...but it seems like she's got bigger problems to fix than the fact that she has a crappy job. I think she needs to be around people she can trust to take her side and be there for her. The more you pressure her to change, the less she's going to trust you.
She's not going to change overnight into the ambitious, confident, vibrant person that you want so badly. It took me a couple of years to get to back to being a confident and happy person. She hasn't even gotten to the point of wanting to change; I doubt she has the confidence to believe that's possible. Do get her into therapy, and please stop thinking of her as someone who should have done as much with her life as you have. She's your friend. Be gentle.
posted by sockomatic at 5:44 PM on March 20, 2012 [8 favorites]
I get that you care about her, but you have admitted that you are willing to abandon her because she isn't the person you want her to be. This is unlikely to be something you can hide from her and it's got to be something that makes it harder for her to want to try anything new. When I was in her position, all I wanted was for my partner to love me as I was. I also had fears of abandonment and was raised by someone who was fostered as a child. Trying to improve my career seemed really unimportant in the face of the fact that my partner did not like me for who I was. It's good that you want more for her...but it seems like she's got bigger problems to fix than the fact that she has a crappy job. I think she needs to be around people she can trust to take her side and be there for her. The more you pressure her to change, the less she's going to trust you.
She's not going to change overnight into the ambitious, confident, vibrant person that you want so badly. It took me a couple of years to get to back to being a confident and happy person. She hasn't even gotten to the point of wanting to change; I doubt she has the confidence to believe that's possible. Do get her into therapy, and please stop thinking of her as someone who should have done as much with her life as you have. She's your friend. Be gentle.
posted by sockomatic at 5:44 PM on March 20, 2012 [8 favorites]
Ok,
YOU pay the mortgage and your tuition, HER JOB pays for cars and groceries. You give yourself credit for putting a roof over your heads, but you don't even give her the credit for what she's contributing... you say its HER JOB that pays... not her, her job. And you make it sound like your things are more noble in the sense...giving yourself credit for paying for your education- but could you have done it without a car and food? maybe, but would you have been taking public transport and eating ramen?
Definitely not my intent there, would it have sounded less self-promoting if I had simply said "despite my going to class full time I still cover about half the cash flow"? I wanted to head-off the anticipated flood of comments about me mooching off of her for all this time.
Housework is split fairly evenly except the cooking... I burn water
I left out positive stuff because, well, I'm not trying to figure out what I still love about her. Does it add anything to advice people could give if I said she was one of the most caring people I knew? Or how much respect I have for the challenges she's overcome already in her life? My comments on her chances outside the marriage... yeah, that was a real douchebag thing to say. I worry that she would sink deep into a rut and not be able to get out.
BUT, if she was my girlie mate- I would stand by my spin on you, because she honestly could do better- until I heard evidence to the contrary.
Fair enough, believe me or not but I think she would do quite well to know a few people who advocated on her behalf as forcefully as you have done.
posted by lostroad at 5:55 PM on March 20, 2012
YOU pay the mortgage and your tuition, HER JOB pays for cars and groceries. You give yourself credit for putting a roof over your heads, but you don't even give her the credit for what she's contributing... you say its HER JOB that pays... not her, her job. And you make it sound like your things are more noble in the sense...giving yourself credit for paying for your education- but could you have done it without a car and food? maybe, but would you have been taking public transport and eating ramen?
Definitely not my intent there, would it have sounded less self-promoting if I had simply said "despite my going to class full time I still cover about half the cash flow"? I wanted to head-off the anticipated flood of comments about me mooching off of her for all this time.
Housework is split fairly evenly except the cooking... I burn water
I left out positive stuff because, well, I'm not trying to figure out what I still love about her. Does it add anything to advice people could give if I said she was one of the most caring people I knew? Or how much respect I have for the challenges she's overcome already in her life? My comments on her chances outside the marriage... yeah, that was a real douchebag thing to say. I worry that she would sink deep into a rut and not be able to get out.
BUT, if she was my girlie mate- I would stand by my spin on you, because she honestly could do better- until I heard evidence to the contrary.
Fair enough, believe me or not but I think she would do quite well to know a few people who advocated on her behalf as forcefully as you have done.
posted by lostroad at 5:55 PM on March 20, 2012
would you want to be that forceful advocate for your beloved wife ? Isn't that what spouse is for ?
posted by Oli D. at 7:31 PM on March 20, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by Oli D. at 7:31 PM on March 20, 2012 [6 favorites]
Have you talked to her about this (in a very careful way)? Asked her how she feels and why she can't change her job? change can be really scary, maybe she feels she's not good at anything else, maybe she's afraid of failure, and at the same time you're "going places", so it adds more to her suffering self perception.
Talk to her and really, going with Oli D., BELIEVE in her. It took me 2 years of serious encouraging to convince my SO that he could go back to school, and now he's destroying CALCULUS, I tell you. It's kind of your implied duty as a husband to believe your beautiful wife capable of everything, and to let her know that she's a ★star★ to you. If academic projects are too much pressure, you can start by motivating to try new things, new hobbies, sports, art, etc. These things give people a new dimension as well as confidence. Start small, maybe? Be her best friend and her biggest fan!
posted by Tarumba at 9:30 PM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
Talk to her and really, going with Oli D., BELIEVE in her. It took me 2 years of serious encouraging to convince my SO that he could go back to school, and now he's destroying CALCULUS, I tell you. It's kind of your implied duty as a husband to believe your beautiful wife capable of everything, and to let her know that she's a ★star★ to you. If academic projects are too much pressure, you can start by motivating to try new things, new hobbies, sports, art, etc. These things give people a new dimension as well as confidence. Start small, maybe? Be her best friend and her biggest fan!
posted by Tarumba at 9:30 PM on March 20, 2012 [5 favorites]
Wow has this thread become argumentative. Ugh.
OP, I stand by my original advice -- get couples therapy with her. You can feel as frustrated as you feel now, and be imperfect as people are pointing out, and still save your marriage if you want to. It seems like that's the choice you face -- fix it, or continue on this path toward a divorce. Go to a counselor with her if you want to fix this. (And another and another, until you find one you like.) But it's like you're sitting around arguing over the internet about what's wrong with your car. Stop arguing with people who can't see it, and take your car to a mechanic.
posted by salvia at 12:42 AM on March 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
OP, I stand by my original advice -- get couples therapy with her. You can feel as frustrated as you feel now, and be imperfect as people are pointing out, and still save your marriage if you want to. It seems like that's the choice you face -- fix it, or continue on this path toward a divorce. Go to a counselor with her if you want to fix this. (And another and another, until you find one you like.) But it's like you're sitting around arguing over the internet about what's wrong with your car. Stop arguing with people who can't see it, and take your car to a mechanic.
posted by salvia at 12:42 AM on March 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
would it have sounded less self-promoting if I had simply said "despite my going to class full time I still cover about half the cash flow"? I wanted to head-off the anticipated flood of comments about me mooching off of her for all this time.
For what it's worth, what actually seems off here is not self-promotion, it's that after a decade of marriage you'd still say "I had enough savings and investments" to help fund your going to school full-time... not we.
If you were viewing this as a team effort, I think you might conclude that she's not "refusing to do anything meaningful for herself," she's arguably continuing to do the meaningful work of building a partnership with you that has allowed you (both) to put away savings and investments over the years, then she has okayed using those savings primarily to boost YOU up during this particular chapter in your lives together. Sounds pretty meaningful to me. I do think that semantics carry weight, and as many others have suggested, a good therapist can help you reframe the way you describe, and therefore see and feel, your current situation... maybe in a way that could help you both find a path to become happier with yourselves and each other.
posted by argonauta at 1:06 AM on March 21, 2012 [5 favorites]
For what it's worth, what actually seems off here is not self-promotion, it's that after a decade of marriage you'd still say "I had enough savings and investments" to help fund your going to school full-time... not we.
If you were viewing this as a team effort, I think you might conclude that she's not "refusing to do anything meaningful for herself," she's arguably continuing to do the meaningful work of building a partnership with you that has allowed you (both) to put away savings and investments over the years, then she has okayed using those savings primarily to boost YOU up during this particular chapter in your lives together. Sounds pretty meaningful to me. I do think that semantics carry weight, and as many others have suggested, a good therapist can help you reframe the way you describe, and therefore see and feel, your current situation... maybe in a way that could help you both find a path to become happier with yourselves and each other.
posted by argonauta at 1:06 AM on March 21, 2012 [5 favorites]
I also think couple's counseling would be the best route. If you are serious about working on this marriage, you are going to have to put a stop or dramatically reduce the time you are spending with your "crush." When I worked at the hospital, a doctor was constantly flirting with me and the more attracted to the doctor I became, the more irritated I became with my husbands imperfections. It's like they were magnified ten times. I realized I needed to reduce the time I spent with the doctor and keep it a strict working relationship. As soon as I did that, my relationship with my husband improved.
You feel you are growing as as a person and your wife is stagnating. Sit down and have a heart to heart with her. She may be struggling with depression. Maybe if you spent some time on your own to soul search. A temporary break my be what you need.
posted by sybarite09 at 9:11 AM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
You feel you are growing as as a person and your wife is stagnating. Sit down and have a heart to heart with her. She may be struggling with depression. Maybe if you spent some time on your own to soul search. A temporary break my be what you need.
posted by sybarite09 at 9:11 AM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
Just on a side note, I've definitely gone through periods of depression and lack of motivation like your wife, and what I needed was 1) unconditional support, 2) therapy, and 3) medication. That doesn't mean that you have to give her 1), just that what everyone is saying about insecurity crippling one's ambitions was absolutely true, in my case. Sometimes it's hard to grow if you feel you're with a judgmental partner (and I don't mean that you're acting very judgmental, just that she might be able to sense your cooling off, and is afraid anything she might do will make it worse). Couples therapy sounds like a great idea.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:03 AM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by stoneandstar at 11:03 AM on March 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm not trying to trivialize your stress or whatever, but I'm hearing a lot of "me" here and not a lot of "we."
Why the shit are you acting as though she's weird for being clingy when she's around you? You have doubts you want to be married to her, have been checking out someone else, and think about her with so much contempt that you refuse to credit her for buying groceries and taking care of bills besides the mortgage, as well as cooking. (BY THE WAY, cooking is a big deal. Did you know that having a partner cook and support you is one of the reasons married male grad students report better quality of life than married female grad students?)
Action Point: GO THANK YOUR WIFE FOR HELPING YOU SUCCEED.
Action Point: It's not cute that you burn water. Use the internet, plan a week's menu, buy the groceries yourself, allocate time to cook, feel anxious for how cooking for two will alter your schedule and be expensive, acknowledge that cooking is a skill, then GO THANK YOUR WIFE FOR MAKING SURE YOU'RE NOURISHED WHILE IN SCHOOL.
I know the caps come off as yelling. I'm sorry about that. But I feel like you're acting as though no one's being clear about what some good actions are for strengthening your marriage, and you're being defensive, instead of taking in the advice. So, the above are just TWO things you can do, to start changing your actions (and thereby your attitude) towards your wife.
posted by spunweb at 1:23 PM on March 21, 2012 [14 favorites]
Why the shit are you acting as though she's weird for being clingy when she's around you? You have doubts you want to be married to her, have been checking out someone else, and think about her with so much contempt that you refuse to credit her for buying groceries and taking care of bills besides the mortgage, as well as cooking. (BY THE WAY, cooking is a big deal. Did you know that having a partner cook and support you is one of the reasons married male grad students report better quality of life than married female grad students?)
Action Point: GO THANK YOUR WIFE FOR HELPING YOU SUCCEED.
Action Point: It's not cute that you burn water. Use the internet, plan a week's menu, buy the groceries yourself, allocate time to cook, feel anxious for how cooking for two will alter your schedule and be expensive, acknowledge that cooking is a skill, then GO THANK YOUR WIFE FOR MAKING SURE YOU'RE NOURISHED WHILE IN SCHOOL.
I know the caps come off as yelling. I'm sorry about that. But I feel like you're acting as though no one's being clear about what some good actions are for strengthening your marriage, and you're being defensive, instead of taking in the advice. So, the above are just TWO things you can do, to start changing your actions (and thereby your attitude) towards your wife.
posted by spunweb at 1:23 PM on March 21, 2012 [14 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Simple question: Do you love her? Think about it a while before you answer.
posted by jbickers at 8:49 AM on March 20, 2012 [1 favorite]