Crossfuzzled
February 2, 2012 3:12 PM Subscribe
Crossword filter: "All tall men mind the mad arithmetic". Six letters. Solve.
A friend ran accross this riddle. Any idea of a good answer? We dont even know if there IS an answer.
A friend ran accross this riddle. Any idea of a good answer? We dont even know if there IS an answer.
Best answer: mental? I don't know, I've never tried these before but I gave it a shot :)
posted by seriousmoonlight at 3:22 PM on February 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by seriousmoonlight at 3:22 PM on February 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, that could actually be it! Thank you so much :)
posted by Folk at 3:23 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by Folk at 3:23 PM on February 2, 2012
My pleasure! Thanks for turning me on to cryptic crosswords, first time I've heard of them!
posted by seriousmoonlight at 3:25 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by seriousmoonlight at 3:25 PM on February 2, 2012
The fun thing about cryptics is that sometimes the puzzle is not so much "what's the answer" as "why is that the answer." I think "mental" is right, but I'm trying to figure out where "arithmetic" fits in. Perhaps there's a certain "mad arithmetic" involved in squeezing the seven letters of "tall men" into "mental"? Or the fact that you don't use "all" of the "all" in "tall"? Those seem a bit forced to me, though.
posted by yoink at 3:27 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by yoink at 3:27 PM on February 2, 2012
Do you know where the puzzle's from? Location or publication? There are different rules for these in different places.
Normally each piece of the clue has to have a meaning; one piece is the meaning of the final word, and the other pieces give you the letters, maybe by giving another word you need to scramble or telling you to add or subtract or rearrange letters somehow.
"mental" is good because:
MIND = the meaning of the word
"tall men" = most of the letters, we just have to figure out why we subtract an L
But what are "all" and "the mad arithmetic" telling us here? (on preview, as yoink says)
My first thought was that "mad arithmetic" probably means it takes the letters from a word for arithmetic, and scrambles them to make another word. Note, it is not necessarily a 6 letter word for arithmetic, could be shorter with something added, or longer with something subtracted, as dictated by the other clues.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:29 PM on February 2, 2012
Normally each piece of the clue has to have a meaning; one piece is the meaning of the final word, and the other pieces give you the letters, maybe by giving another word you need to scramble or telling you to add or subtract or rearrange letters somehow.
"mental" is good because:
MIND = the meaning of the word
"tall men" = most of the letters, we just have to figure out why we subtract an L
But what are "all" and "the mad arithmetic" telling us here? (on preview, as yoink says)
My first thought was that "mad arithmetic" probably means it takes the letters from a word for arithmetic, and scrambles them to make another word. Note, it is not necessarily a 6 letter word for arithmetic, could be shorter with something added, or longer with something subtracted, as dictated by the other clues.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:29 PM on February 2, 2012
yoink: mental arithmetic. 'mental' is also synonoumous with 'mad', so mad arithmetic = mental arithmetic. Tall men is almost an anagram of mental, but over here I can't get what the initial "all" has to do with it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:30 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:30 PM on February 2, 2012
Mental Arithmetic was a common phrase when I was a kid that now seems to resolve to this when googled.
posted by The Bellman at 3:31 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by The Bellman at 3:31 PM on February 2, 2012
The fun thing about cryptics is that sometimes the puzzle is not so much "what's the answer" as "why is that the answer." I think "mental" is right, but I'm trying to figure out where "arithmetic" fits in. Perhaps there's a certain "mad arithmetic" involved in squeezing the seven letters of "tall men" into "mental"? Or the fact that you don't use "all" of the "all" in "tall"? Those seem a bit forced to me, though.
Mental arithmetic, maybe.
posted by Jehan at 3:31 PM on February 2, 2012
Mental arithmetic, maybe.
posted by Jehan at 3:31 PM on February 2, 2012
If the answer is mental this is a very bad clue. There is no reason to drop the l.
posted by unliteral at 3:32 PM on February 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by unliteral at 3:32 PM on February 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
oh, and mind also relates to mental. it's a bit of a scrappy clue, though.
ones like this i just mentally pencil in until any of the letters can be verified by a more certain answer to another question. or else, use whichever letters of 'mental' to help solve the others. i wouldn't put mental in just yet, though, as i only do cryptics in pen & *hate* having to spoil a puzzle with a crossed out answer.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:35 PM on February 2, 2012
ones like this i just mentally pencil in until any of the letters can be verified by a more certain answer to another question. or else, use whichever letters of 'mental' to help solve the others. i wouldn't put mental in just yet, though, as i only do cryptics in pen & *hate* having to spoil a puzzle with a crossed out answer.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:35 PM on February 2, 2012
unliteral: what about reading 'mind' phonetically, as a pun on 'mined'? that way, you 'mine' "tall men" to get the partial anagram, at the same time as 'mind' relates to 'mental'?
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2012
maybe the "L"s cancel each other out? or end up equalling just one "L"? Math is not my strong suit so I have no real reasoning behind this.
posted by seriousmoonlight at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by seriousmoonlight at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2012
I'm not really seeing what the existence of the phrase "mental arithmetic" does to answer my question. I mean you would still need something in the clue that tells you "you're looking to replace just one of the two words in this phrase." "Mad arithmetic" is certainly a clue for "mental arithmetic"--but it's not a clue for the word "mental" by itself. It could, of course, just be a not very well written crossword.
posted by yoink at 3:49 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by yoink at 3:49 PM on February 2, 2012
I think "not well written" is becoming the consensus here. There are so many better ways to construct this clue, like "Entertainment allowances involve a kind of arithmetic", or a simple but elegant "Crazy Newfoundland team".
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:10 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:10 PM on February 2, 2012
I'm convinced it has to do with canceling letters/sounds out, and you're left with a remainder. But I can't see it yet and I don't want to turn the light on and grab a pen and stay up until 3 am and having to come up with a much cooler reason for crosseyed tiredness.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:35 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by iamkimiam at 4:35 PM on February 2, 2012
I meant to add that I think that 'mental' is the remainder.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:36 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by iamkimiam at 4:36 PM on February 2, 2012
All the stuff about getting rid of the extra 'L'... isn't it just the fact that "Mental" sounds just like "Men Tall"?
posted by Fen at 4:45 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by Fen at 4:45 PM on February 2, 2012
Fen> All the stuff about getting rid of the extra 'L'... isn't it just the fact that "Mental" sounds just like "Men Tall"?
Not really -- the convention of cryptic crosswords is such that if you're doing a homophone clue, there has to be some word that hints at the fact that you're doing a sound-alike (see number 5 here). And as yoink points out, there are way too many extraneous words for that solution.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 5:00 PM on February 2, 2012
Not really -- the convention of cryptic crosswords is such that if you're doing a homophone clue, there has to be some word that hints at the fact that you're doing a sound-alike (see number 5 here). And as yoink points out, there are way too many extraneous words for that solution.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 5:00 PM on February 2, 2012
mad arithmetic = mental arithmetic
But arithmetic is totally redundant here. Mad anything = mental anything, so why bother including it. I too think the answer is mental, but I also think this is a very badly written clue.
posted by The Discredited Ape at 5:09 PM on February 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
But arithmetic is totally redundant here. Mad anything = mental anything, so why bother including it. I too think the answer is mental, but I also think this is a very badly written clue.
posted by The Discredited Ape at 5:09 PM on February 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Do you have any of the words that cross it in the puzzle, to corroborate?
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:13 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:13 PM on February 2, 2012
"mad" (in the sense of crazy) also can be a synonym for "mental," as in "that guy is mental." ("mental" = not very PC abbreviation of "mentally ill" or "mentally deranged")
I haven't got any ideas for interpreting "arithmetic", though.
posted by Orinda at 5:14 PM on February 2, 2012
I haven't got any ideas for interpreting "arithmetic", though.
posted by Orinda at 5:14 PM on February 2, 2012
"Mental arithmetic" is a term commonly used in British education system to refer to calculations done in one's head. Children are taught mental arithmetic techniques to make simple calculations easier.
posted by Petrot at 5:17 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by Petrot at 5:17 PM on February 2, 2012
Speaking as a non-UK person who doesn't do cryptics -- I think the "mad arithmetic" refers to the idea that doing "mad arithmetic" can make people "mental." "Mad" and "mental" used this way are rather similar Brit style colloquialisms, aren't they? And of course"mad arithmetic" also refers back to the most important part of the clue, the backwards presentation of "mental" as "Tall Men," but with an extra letter.
posted by bearwife at 5:18 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by bearwife at 5:18 PM on February 2, 2012
And of course"mad arithmetic" also refers back to the most important part of the clue, the backwards presentation of "mental" as "Tall Men," but with an extra letter.
But then where does "All" fit into this? I think The Discredited Ape has it right: the answer is probably "mental", but the clue is terribly written.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 5:22 PM on February 2, 2012
But then where does "All" fit into this? I think The Discredited Ape has it right: the answer is probably "mental", but the clue is terribly written.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 5:22 PM on February 2, 2012
It's probably more likely that 'the mad arithmetic' refers to the fact that you need to add 'tall' to 'men' but in the wrong order. Which leaves us with 'all' somehow being a signal to remove a surplus letter l. Not that that makes any sense.
If so, the only part that specifically refers to 'mental' is 'mind' (which I'm not totally happy about, because mental means of the mind, not the mind itself). The use of 'mad' to refer to scrambling or non-standard order of addition is cute, because of the overall theme of the clue.
I still think that either this was written by someone who doesn't understand the conventions of cryptic crosswords, or the answer isn't actually 'mental'.
posted by The Discredited Ape at 5:44 PM on February 2, 2012
If so, the only part that specifically refers to 'mental' is 'mind' (which I'm not totally happy about, because mental means of the mind, not the mind itself). The use of 'mad' to refer to scrambling or non-standard order of addition is cute, because of the overall theme of the clue.
I still think that either this was written by someone who doesn't understand the conventions of cryptic crosswords, or the answer isn't actually 'mental'.
posted by The Discredited Ape at 5:44 PM on February 2, 2012
If it is 'mental', the clue ought to be:
Crazy tall men lose fifty after mad arithmetic.
Crazy = mental (the overall descriptor)
Perform 'mad arithmetic' on 'tall men' = add 'tall' to 'men' but 'madly' (i.e. the wrong way round) = mentall
Lose fifty = subtract L (Roman numeral for 50) = mental
posted by The Discredited Ape at 5:52 PM on February 2, 2012
Crazy tall men lose fifty after mad arithmetic.
Crazy = mental (the overall descriptor)
Perform 'mad arithmetic' on 'tall men' = add 'tall' to 'men' but 'madly' (i.e. the wrong way round) = mentall
Lose fifty = subtract L (Roman numeral for 50) = mental
posted by The Discredited Ape at 5:52 PM on February 2, 2012
No chance it was "All tall men mean the mad arithmetic" ?
Just thinking that "mad arithmetic" could be a shuffling of the letters in "math" (yeah, yeah, not British, really without the "s"), and "all" could be a synonym for "any", or NE, thus the answer could be ANTHEM, which is included in "mean the mad".
Or not.
posted by fish tick at 6:28 PM on February 2, 2012
Just thinking that "mad arithmetic" could be a shuffling of the letters in "math" (yeah, yeah, not British, really without the "s"), and "all" could be a synonym for "any", or NE, thus the answer could be ANTHEM, which is included in "mean the mad".
Or not.
posted by fish tick at 6:28 PM on February 2, 2012
How bizarre! a Google for this exact phrase ends up at a Hungarian translator help forum, an Italian subtitle forum and an English to Turkish translation dictionary.
posted by unliteral at 6:34 PM on February 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by unliteral at 6:34 PM on February 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
As a twist/response to all those who are saying "this is a bad clue" - Are you sure you have the clue 100% right? You say you got it from a friend. Is it possible there's something missing/changed from the original clue?
posted by ManInSuit at 6:58 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by ManInSuit at 6:58 PM on February 2, 2012
How bizarre! a Google for this exact phrase ends up at a Hungarian translator help forum, an Italian subtitle forum and an English to Turkish translation dictionary.
I think those are spam sites that are scraping content off this very page we are on...
posted by ManInSuit at 6:59 PM on February 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think those are spam sites that are scraping content off this very page we are on...
posted by ManInSuit at 6:59 PM on February 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Actually, not bizarre at all. But I don't really want to say more because it's my friend's project.
With that said, we have no assurance the person who wrote this puzzle actually knew what they were doing, so "mental" should be a good enough working premise.
I think you guys made a new MeFi convert. Thanks everyone!
posted by Folk at 8:31 PM on February 2, 2012
With that said, we have no assurance the person who wrote this puzzle actually knew what they were doing, so "mental" should be a good enough working premise.
I think you guys made a new MeFi convert. Thanks everyone!
posted by Folk at 8:31 PM on February 2, 2012
Response by poster: @maninsuit Those were actually there before I posted the question.
posted by Folk at 8:33 PM on February 2, 2012
posted by Folk at 8:33 PM on February 2, 2012
if the answer takes its letters from both "mental" and "arithmetic" then would the word "metric" work?
posted by seriousmoonlight at 7:51 AM on February 3, 2012
posted by seriousmoonlight at 7:51 AM on February 3, 2012
As someone who regularly does UK cryptics, I'm pretty sure that it's not "mental", as it's completely outside the rules (even a non-Ximenean setter would not set that clue for the answer "mental"). I suspect it's something else, but I can't see it right now.
Do you know which publication it's from? That might help us a lot!
posted by BigCalm at 8:06 AM on February 3, 2012
Do you know which publication it's from? That might help us a lot!
posted by BigCalm at 8:06 AM on February 3, 2012
Mmm, might be 'tallys', that would fit a lot better to the clue but I'm still not quite sure.
posted by BigCalm at 8:14 AM on February 3, 2012
posted by BigCalm at 8:14 AM on February 3, 2012
Response by poster: @BigCalm It's from a television show. That's why we don't even know if there is a good answer.
posted by Folk at 8:47 AM on February 3, 2012
posted by Folk at 8:47 AM on February 3, 2012
Hmm, if it's from a TV show, that might explain why. If it was from a cryptic crossword, I'd be more sure - these have quite specific rules about clueing (Ximenean), and even though these rules can be stretched and distorted at times (Non-Ximenean), the rules still generally hold for all types of cryptic crossword clue. Let me explain why tallys sort of fits
All tall men = could be "tallys" (people who are tall). Arithmetic = tallys (sums, etc). The mind/mad elements could be indicators that it's actually mis-spelled (should be tallies really). In this case it's just a double meaning + a bit of trickery with the spelling.
This is why I'm not quite happy with the answer of 'tallys'. "mind the mad" is a bit redundant.
It's definitely not a homophone (there's no "sounds like" indicator there - and Ximenean or non-Ximenean you have to have the indicator there. (We hear; In [placename]; Overheard; etc.)
It might be a partial anagram - both 'mind' and 'mad' can be used as anagram indicators - and it's possible that one of the words you have to find the synonym for and then anagram that (fairly common amongst harder non-Ximenean crosswords) - so for example, possibly finding an anagram for "sums" or "tot" or "add" (=arithmetic, more here) might help, but I can't tie that in with synonyms for "tall" (more here) - certainly not one that's 6 letters anyway). Tying that together with the rest would give a charade type clue
Is there a basketball team with 6 letters? (would fit with "all tall men", could be a nickname, could be a UK basketball team if from a UK tv show).
I will continue thinking about it!
posted by BigCalm at 10:00 AM on February 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
All tall men = could be "tallys" (people who are tall). Arithmetic = tallys (sums, etc). The mind/mad elements could be indicators that it's actually mis-spelled (should be tallies really). In this case it's just a double meaning + a bit of trickery with the spelling.
This is why I'm not quite happy with the answer of 'tallys'. "mind the mad" is a bit redundant.
It's definitely not a homophone (there's no "sounds like" indicator there - and Ximenean or non-Ximenean you have to have the indicator there. (We hear; In [placename]; Overheard; etc.)
It might be a partial anagram - both 'mind' and 'mad' can be used as anagram indicators - and it's possible that one of the words you have to find the synonym for and then anagram that (fairly common amongst harder non-Ximenean crosswords) - so for example, possibly finding an anagram for "sums" or "tot" or "add" (=arithmetic, more here) might help, but I can't tie that in with synonyms for "tall" (more here) - certainly not one that's 6 letters anyway). Tying that together with the rest would give a charade type clue
Is there a basketball team with 6 letters? (would fit with "all tall men", could be a nickname, could be a UK basketball team if from a UK tv show).
I will continue thinking about it!
posted by BigCalm at 10:00 AM on February 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Guys, "All tall men" is the clue, and "mind the mad arithmetic" is an indication of a screwy (phonetic) anagram within the clue. The wordplay is "All tall men are mental." It's a perfectly standard clue.
posted by cmoj at 10:02 AM on February 3, 2012
posted by cmoj at 10:02 AM on February 3, 2012
Response by poster: My personal opinion is that the first part gets "mental" and the second part affirms it because mental people truely do mind mad arithmetic. But carryon, I have never done this before and it's fun to watch.
posted by Folk at 8:47 PM on February 3, 2012
posted by Folk at 8:47 PM on February 3, 2012
the first part gets "mental" and the second part affirms it because mental people truely do mind mad arithmetic
This makes no sense and I'm not sure I appreciate being part of your 'friend's project'.
John Forbes Nash was 6'1" though - is that considered tall?
posted by unliteral at 12:25 AM on February 4, 2012
This makes no sense and I'm not sure I appreciate being part of your 'friend's project'.
John Forbes Nash was 6'1" though - is that considered tall?
posted by unliteral at 12:25 AM on February 4, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by brainmouse at 3:13 PM on February 2, 2012