Low Libido

June 28, 2005 1:59 PM

Have any of you experienced (or noticed in your male partner) an extremely low libido for long periods of time? How did you and your partner get through it? What did you do to combat it?

My husband and I are both 24 and were virgins on our wedding night. Before we got married he couldn't keep his hands off of me. After marriage we discovered that I have a form of vulvodynia (vulvar pain) that makes intercourse painful. Because of this, it took us a year to be able to successfully have intercourse, but making sure to be extremely loving and sensual to each others bodies during that time. Intercourse still hurts me a bit, but it hurts less the more frequently we do it: practice makes perfect. And I'm no longer crying from the pain.

He was on anti-depressants for a while (which may have caused his sex drive to drop) and switched to Wellbutrin to have a lesser effect on his sex drive. I didn't notice any change. He has been off all medication for over a year and things are not getting better.

And yet, he is just not interested in any sexual intimacy. We consistently go a month between any sort of sexual activity, including make-out sessions. We have gone without for two months a few times before. We do cuddle frequently, and feel very close to each other emotionally. We went through a cycle where he would tell me that yes, he is interested, but not right now, and then I would beg and he would be even more turned off. Thankfully I stopped all the begging, but his desire did not change. This has been going on for almost three years now, and I am tired of waiting to see when he might be in the mood.

We tried herbal supplements, Horny Goat Weed and another I cannot remember, but they didn't do anything for him. I am confident he is not cheating on me, and he has no problem being aroused or ejaculating. And here I thought all men were ruled by their penis.

I had been considering posting this anonymously, but then made a comment in another thread along these lines. Is this possibly a medical problem? What do you do to help yourself or your partner get back the desire you used to have?

posted by rhapsodie to human relations (53 comments total)

I could be totally off-base here, but the first thing I thought was was that if my first sexual experience involved causing great pain to the person I loved, it would take me a long time to get over it. I might never want to have sex again, in fact. That must have been deeply traumatic for him. Have you talked about it much?
posted by frykitty at 2:11 PM on June 28, 2005

Have you talked about it much?

We have tried talking about it, but he doesn't seem very interested in finding out the "why" of his waning desire. I have considered the pain factor, understanding how traumatizing it could be. I asked him about it, but he just shrugs and says he doesn't know. He is like this with a lot of things though, not just our sex life.

We have talked about my vulvodynia, but more in medical terms. From what I have read and been told about it, there is nothing medically that can fix or even help it. So little is known about it and yet it affects many women, women who don't talk about it.
posted by rhapsodie at 2:18 PM on June 28, 2005

It certainly could be a medical problem -- low testosterone levels, for example, or perhaps an endocrine problem. His taking a trip to the doctor for some bloodwork is obviously the first step to rule anything out (or in). If he's not so interested in finding out the "why," though, he may not be willing to see a doctor, which adds another wrinkle to the situation. Is seeing a marriage counselor together an option?

More generally, I just wanted to say I'm sorry you're going through this, rhapsodie. I was in a long-term relationship marked by a significant imbalance in our sex drives (mine's high; his wasn't), and it was extremely emotionally painful for me. (The relationship didn't last, and while there were multiple reasons we split, I must admit the lack of sex was pretty high on my list.) I also found that the frustration was compounded by the fact that the popular cultural view of incompatible libidos is pretty much dominated by the assumption that it's always the woman who doesn't want sex -- there were virtually no articles/discussions of what it's like (and how to cope) as a woman who's being denied sex for whatever medical/emotional reasons. So I do wish you and your husband the very best of luck.
posted by scody at 2:22 PM on June 28, 2005

We have tried talking about it, but he doesn't seem very interested in finding out the "why" of his waning desire.

Red flag!

I hate to spout a standard line, but get thee to counseling. It sounds like he's internalized some pain, and is feeling too pressured to talk about it. A third party will probably help you both to talk and cope.
posted by frykitty at 2:27 PM on June 28, 2005

There are a fair number of marriage and sex books out there that address lack of male desire, and what a couple might do about it (though I do agree with scody, that few women seem to talk about it). Maybe one of those would help? (I just browsed through some at the bookstore when I was in a similar situation; I unfortunately can't recommend any specific titles.)

I'm not sure you can "fix" anything on your own, though, if he's not willing to work with you on it. The only thing that worked for me (temporarily) was backing WAY off and letting him come to me when he wanted to, which took off some of the pressure he was feeling to perform. But that still ended up with less sex than I wanted.
posted by occhiblu at 2:27 PM on June 28, 2005

This is one, I think, much to tough for AskMe--to much unknown and difficult to thoroughly discuss on a Board--sexual history, over all relationship, depression, side effects, guilt etc. It is not that the problem is that unmanageable but just to complicated for an easy analysis--this is difficult stuff because of the intersection of physical/emotional/psychiatric issues--a thorough and sensitive history, physical and assessment of the current situation is indicated--post another question, if interested about how to find the best treatment resources. My best wishes
posted by rmhsinc at 2:38 PM on June 28, 2005

The only thing that worked for me (temporarily) was backing WAY off and letting him come to me when he wanted to

Which is where we are now, and we are still going 1-2 months between any kind of sexual interactions.

A third party will probably help you both to talk and cope.

But only if he's willing. He was willing a few years ago to see a counselor for this and a different issue, but we were on an "up" swing in the cycle and he flat out stated that he didn't see any need for it.
posted by rhapsodie at 2:41 PM on June 28, 2005

Would he at least see a doctor for a physical work-up?
posted by scody at 2:44 PM on June 28, 2005

to much unknown and difficult to thoroughly discuss on a Board

Then possibly I gave too much information. I'm interested in suggestions to raise one's sex drive.

Would he at least see a doctor for a physical work-up?

I can definitely ask. It took some prodding to get him to talk with his doctor about changing his medication because of his lowered drive, but he did eventually do it.
posted by rhapsodie at 2:48 PM on June 28, 2005

Depression can affect libido very strongly, and (as you mentioned) so can depression meds, unfortunately. I've experienced both, and it's tough. I've also experienced a lack of sexual desire when in a dissatisfying relationship; my dissatisfaction resulted in disinterest in sex, even though I hadn't really connected the two at the time.

It sounds like that although you've had an open dialogue about this, his lack of libido is probably a symptom of more complicated issues. I second a trip to the doctor to rule out physiological causes. If that's not it, it's time to have someone (professional) assist you both in finding out what's going on. Let's hope he wants to fix it.
posted by Specklet at 2:52 PM on June 28, 2005

>I'm interested in suggestions to raise one's sex drive.

It's just that it's not that easy. Too many factors could be at work here -- psychological or emotional problems with you, psychological or emotional problems from the past, medical issues... or he could just not be that into sex. It could be his diet. He could be totally freaking out about the marriage. He could be stressed from work.

And for almost all these problems, *he* needs to do something if he wants to fix them.

I know it's frustrating and makes you feel powerless -- trust me, I've been there -- but short of sneaking Viagra into his Oreos, you can't snap your fingers and fix it.
posted by occhiblu at 2:55 PM on June 28, 2005

"vulvodynia" seems like a term that encompasses a lot of different collections of symptoms (all to do with pain in female sex organs, but not necessarily the same sort or happening in the same contexts) and has no known cause, so just because there's a name for it may not be enough to make him really feel that he's not just plain hurting you... I mean, you say "I'm no longer crying from the pain" but you don't say anywhere that you actually enjoy sex! Do you use lots of lubricant, etc? Lots of foreplay that doesn't require anything that would cause you pain? It should definitely not be a "task" to fulfill...
posted by mdn at 2:58 PM on June 28, 2005

Right, and I forgot he was on anti-depressants. The depression is also a very likely cause.

Also, slightly OT, but please be careful about mixing herbal supplements with prescription drugs. They can cause unexpected side effects and severe problems, or make the prescription drugs ineffective.
posted by occhiblu at 3:27 PM on June 28, 2005

You don't say anywhere that you actually enjoy sex!

I enjoy sex! I wish we had sex more often. It still hurts, yes, but it is manageable, and the sex is more than worth it. After getting past the initial pain of insertion I enjoy it immensely and even come to orgasm. The vulvodynia is a whole different week's worth if discussion, but once I finally worked up the nerve to talk to a doctor about it, I was brushed off and told, "use more lubrication," "more foreplay," and "relax!" We make sure everything is more lubricated than necessary and will just about always spend an hour or so in foreplay.

I forgot he was on anti-depressants

He was on anti-depressants, but has been off of all prescription medication for over a year.
posted by rhapsodie at 3:34 PM on June 28, 2005

Something no one has yet mentioned and which pains me to do so is: he might be gay. An acquantaince of mine had her engagment broken off a week before the wedding because her fiance didn't, uh, like women, and an old neighbor of mine left his wife of twenty-odd years after coming out of the closet. You say you were virgins before you were married: are you both pretty serious Christians? Maybe I'm way off - I hope I am - but I think you should know that it can happen and has happened.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:39 PM on June 28, 2005

here I thought all men were ruled by their penis

The male libido is a far more intricate and fragile thing than a lot of people think. Men suffer when they discover this and so do their partners.

sneaking Viagra into his Oreos

I know you were probably being facetious, occhiblu, but there is a difference between having an erection and wanting to use it with someone. In fact that rather seems to be the problem here.

Conditions have to be right emotionally and mentally for men just as they do for women. Your husband's spent a long time training himself to be super-gentle and respect your sensations of pain. Mmm, could he have inadvertantly trained himself out of feeling desire for you? I think so. If he shrugs about that, don't forget he probably desperately wants not to hurt your feelings.

I think in the end he has to seek help for it. You're already doing the right thing by backing off and leaving him be - the last thing left to do is say as best you can:

"This is a problem for me and for you. Let us go and seek help. We both deserve better than this."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:06 PM on June 28, 2005

Yeah, that was exactly my point. There's not some magic drug that makes a guy want to have sex. It simply doesn't work that way.
posted by occhiblu at 4:10 PM on June 28, 2005

OK, in my mind, spending an hour or so in foreplay is an awful lot when you get to the normal life (i.e. not honeymoon, romantic getaway) part of relationships. I can easily see someone who is maybe a little tired and stressed by work, already negatively anticipating the whole pain thing, maybe a little depressed on top of it all, just putting off sex until the frequency drops to once every couple months. I might too out of sheer laziness. Especially if the trade-off is sleep.

This is not to say it's not an understandable requirement for you and your body. I'm not saying it's your fault. But you might want to take into consideration that an hour + commitment for sex could be more than he can handle regularly.

So, maybe you could up the frequency of non-penetrative sex, to come up with your version of a quickie? Explore masturbation (especially together)? These aren't immediate substitutes for what you're missing, but they could start to set a pattern of more frequent intimacy that would be ready to take advantage of the moments when your body is more cooperative.
posted by dness2 at 4:16 PM on June 28, 2005

OK, in my mind, spending an hour or so in foreplay is an awful lot when you get to the normal life (i.e. not honeymoon, romantic getaway) part of relationships

You know, I would have agreed at one point, but anything under 2 hours in total is now considered a "quickie" in my current relationship..
posted by wackybrit at 4:41 PM on June 28, 2005

spending an hour or so in foreplay is an awful lot

Indeed it can be, and I often wish he would move things along faster. I do not always need an hour to get where I need to go. Maybe he lingers with foreplay because it does not hurt me.

I had always known that my pain was related to his decrease in interest, but hadn't thought that it could be the main factor. Thanks for all the thoughts and well wishes.
posted by rhapsodie at 4:43 PM on June 28, 2005

I often wish he would move things along faster

Clarification: not that he is the only active participant. He just likes to take his time with all of that.
posted by rhapsodie at 4:45 PM on June 28, 2005

Rhapsodie, I'm gonna ask a personal question (to your husband, not you) so feel free not to post the answer here. But I think it is rather right to the point and would shed some light on where exactly the problem lies. If you don't know the answer, you should absolutely find out:

Is it all sexual activity your husband goes 1-2 months without, or just sex with you? To put it less obliquely... does he, ah, engage in manual overrides a lot more frequently than 1-2 months?

If he has NO sexual activity (including masturbation) for 1-2 months, that's quite possibly a medical issue. Depression, med reactions, etc. If he does, and it's only sex with a partner he goes without, that's a very, very clear indication it is some sort of psychological or relationship issue. In the former case, you guys should probably see a doctor. In the latter case, you guys should DEFINITELY see a counselor.

I know that is quite a personal thing which probably you don't want to write about here, but YOU should know the answer as it is very germane. I hope I've shown why.
posted by Justinian at 5:30 PM on June 28, 2005

I'm gonna ask a personal question

Like this entire thread isn't very personal? Thanks for the question anyway.
posted by rhapsodie at 5:58 PM on June 28, 2005

I enjoy sex! I wish we had sex more often. It still hurts, yes, but it is manageable, and the sex is more than worth it

okay, good, thanks for clarifying :).
My other main thought, aside from his perhaps having issues about the pain thing, was the fact that you had never been together before being married, so you were in love but not sexually familiar with one another. How sure are you that you turn him on? I know you say "he couldn't keep his hands off" you before the wedding, but I don't know if that was like, serious lust, or more like lots of cuddling and closeness and fondling and sort of 'safe' intimacy. I mean, was it really tough to hold out and not jump each other? Did he often get hard-ons when you got too close?

I know it's not the most desirable answer, but people have different libidos when with different partners. Sometimes two people just drive each other crazy. Sometimes one person is more turned on. Sometimes the sex is nice but not central to the relationship for either one. That is not just about the personalities of the involved parties; it's also a question of the chemistry between them. See if you can honestly assess whether it's possible he's just not that sexually excited by you (e.g.)...

on preview, as justinian, and in a more specific way optimus chyme, have already suggested.
posted by mdn at 6:17 PM on June 28, 2005

I know it's not the most desirable answer, but people have different libidos when with different partners.

This is a very good point. I have a friend who had severe vulvodynia and a very low sex drive with her husband of 14 years (she was 18 and a virgin when they married; he was 21 and had previous partners). She assumed that she was essentially wired that way no matter what. When they got divorced, however, she discovered with her new partner that her vulvodynia decreased significantly and that her levels of desire were higher than she'd ever before experienced.

This is by no means to suggest that your situation is irrevocable or headed for divorce, so please don't take it that way -- just to agree/illustrate that sexual chemistry can be a very mysterious, individual thing.
posted by scody at 7:10 PM on June 28, 2005

Interesting thread. Thanks for being so bold as to post the question, rhapsodie!

In my personal experience, depression kills sex drive. He's off meds, which means he may have slipped right back into a depressive phase. Support him in identifying whether this is the case, and to seek help if it is. Of course, this may be like poking a bear with a stick, in which case you're damned if you do and damned if you don't... so do what's right in your mind, and to hell with the reaction/outcome.

And, of course, many anti-depressants kill sex drive. So that's a damned if you do/don't situation, too.

Just like everyone else mentions, the whole first-time experience may have traumatized him, so there's all that to deal with, too!

Her's a suggestion I haven't seen, though: flirt with him. Get to first or second base, and see what happens. Maybe you need to get him kick-started before he's in the mind for a roll in the hay...

Best of luck. Don't deny yourself a fulfilling sex life, if that's an important facet of your happiness and fulfilment.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:41 PM on June 28, 2005

I mean, was it really tough to hold out and not jump each other? Did he often get hard-ons when you got too close?

YES and yes. Good grief, we should have married earlier than we did, considering how important it was for each of us to stay virgins until those rings were on our fingers. Or gone to separate colleges. Or stayed living at our parents' homes instead of the dorms. I often wondered if things would have been differently if we hadn't backed off when we did those thousands of times. But the pain would have still been the same, and I have to keep telling myself this is not my fault.
posted by rhapsodie at 7:43 PM on June 28, 2005

Her's a suggestion I haven't seen, though: flirt with him.

The hardest part about doing this is that I want/need more. I feel like I've been starving for sexual intimacy that once I hit first base I get too excited and am wanting to just skip the other bases and go straight to home. Which is mostly why I have backed off.
posted by rhapsodie at 7:46 PM on June 28, 2005

I have to keep telling myself this is not my fault.

Exactly -- and keep telling yourself!! It's not a situation where there's any one "fault" whatsoever, as you clearly know -- but it's so hard not to try to turn the blame inward. (Or outward, and get angry/resentful towards your husband.) I really do feel for you, rhapsodie. (And I do hope that even if you're not having much sexual contact with your husband, that you're still at least getting some sexual satisfaction in, um, other ways. I know masturbation is no substitution for personal intimacy, but it does at least keep you lovingly in touch [heh!] with your own sexual self. That's important.)
posted by scody at 8:21 PM on June 28, 2005

I want to give the green a big group hug even though I nervously watched this thread all day long.
posted by rhapsodie at 9:52 PM on June 28, 2005

The key thing for you to think about is: how does he perceive this problem? Is it even a problem to him? Does he realize your needs are not being met? Does he try to address them in other (even non-sexual, non-overt) ways? Does the fact his libido has gone down concern him, either from the viewpoint of its effect on you, or whether it's the result of depression, or from any view point at all?

This is something about who he is, currently or permanently, that he needs to acknowledge and comes to terms with on his own, before anything can happen to remedy it. You can tear yourself apart trying to help someone who just doesn't want to be helped, and that outpouring of emotion and mental exertion might as well be pouring your love into a void.

I say this after having once been involved with an emotionally unavailable/depressed guy (we weren't sexually active), and learning that some issues we have to own ourselves. I tried everything under the sun to fix/help/cure him. Meanwhile I let my brain run wild with thoughts like: Why couldn't I make him happy? Wasn't I good enough? Pretty enough? Funny enough? Why wouldn't he talk to me about things? Why didn't he love me the way I loved him?

That's all bullshit, I'm amazed I crawled out of there with any scrap of self-esteem. This guy wasn't broken, he just deeply needed something I was not physically able to give because it came in a pill and in therapy for things that happened before I ever entered his life. He never went looking for what he needed until he realized there was something wrong on his own, and I stopped letting both of us believe I had the magic bullet somewhere inside of me, until I stopped making myself responsible for his happiness.

His happiness is not your responsibility, or his penis, for that matter. Yes, you are his wife, and you love him, and whatever is wrong is affecting you too. Standing by him through whatever this is is honorable, but he is ultimately in control of the way his life unfolds, and what he chooses to accept or rise above. You might need to take your own sexual gratification in hand until he works this out. Please don't beat yourself up over something that is not your fault. One plus one equals two, always remember that.

i_am_joe's_spleen hit this perfectly, so I'll repeat it:

I think in the end he has to seek help for it. You're already doing the right thing by backing off and leaving him be - the last thing left to do is say as best you can:

"This is a problem for me and for you. Let us go and seek help. We both deserve better than this."
posted by nelleish at 10:16 PM on June 28, 2005

Just to echo what some others have said here: nothing puts me less in the mood, in a rather irrevocable way, than -- not only my partner being -- but putting my partner in pain. That's not something a guy just shrugs off.
posted by dreamsign at 11:15 PM on June 28, 2005

I often wondered if things would have been differently if we hadn't backed off when we did those thousands of times. But the pain would have still been the same, and I have to keep telling myself this is not my fault.

Yes it would have been different and yes it would still have happened. What you describe exactly compares to the start of my relationship with my wife. And seven to ten years later, when we went through our rough patch of sexual blahs, it hurt. The only difference: we chose to have sex, and chose to not sign a civil union certificate.

Sexual compatibility is incredibly important. It is right and reasonable to expect it in a relationship. It is not your fault.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:05 AM on June 29, 2005

I feel like I've been starving for sexual intimacy that once I hit first base I get too excited and am wanting to just skip the other bases and go straight to home. Which is mostly why I have backed off.

Wanting so strongly to round the bases is okay. That's right and reasonable. You should expect that. It's ok.

So don't back off. Keep going to first base. Yes, you are going to find it difficult to not keep going. That is to be expected.

But you are going to stop at the first base. Because you are training him. Training only works if you do things sensibly. And one of those sensible things is to make sure the trainee is still happy with the way things are.

If it turns out that first bases are all he wants, then that's okay. You ask explicitly if he is ready to head to second, and he responds. You have to trust that he knows what's best for him. And you must not abuse your trainee: respond appropriately to his decision.

It's okay to take him to second base once in a while¹. You must explicitly ask if he's ready to go further. You must trust that he knows what's best for him.

Very rarely, you'll want to skip the question and just force a homerun².

You must decide where first base is and how many bases there are³. You must decide how long the training season lasts. And at the end of that season, YOU must decide whether or not he gets to become a player.

Small goals can lead to significant change with practice. It's how great baseball players become great. But some guys, even if they were to become 300x better at the game, are still never gonna make the big leagues.

If you're feel you've got the big leagues, you got 'em. If you figure you're settling for little league... well, you gotta decide whether you love that league, or whether you gotta move on.

I loathe sports analogies. "round the bases"? ugh. Sorry, we go to AskMe with the rant we have, not the rant we want...

---

¹ Guess you'll have to decide what's reasonable. The other thread should give you an idea how often you can eventually expect to hit a home run⁴: somewhere between a few times a week to a few times a month seems to all be well within normal variation. You will not, of course, start off with such professional-league goals: it takes time to go from a reliable first-baser to a consistent homerun star.

² OMG! It's maybe like rape! You will have to decide for yourself when lack of enthusiasm and/or wishy-washy protest is actually a reasonable and clear "no."

³I don't know how many plates there are in sex baseball. Maybe there needs to be plates between the standard four, so that the goals are smaller. Maybe first base isn't even passionate kissing. And at the other end of the run, somewhere between third and home, maybe there's one where after an hour of foreplay you explicitly ask if he wants (ie. desires) to put it in you. The answer might be conclusive for you.

⁴ If you're on the high side of normal while he's on the low side, you have to decide whether you are being unreasonable in not changing your behaviour. And if you're a thrice-daily girl, I think you'll just have to accept that what you want is not available in this relationship. That's a bummer.

Request for Feedback: Is that a mound of bullshit or what? It seems good to me, but it honestly and truly is entirely pulled from my ass. I have to wonder if maybe I've fluff for brains and stuffing.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:54 AM on June 29, 2005

Don't ignore Justinian's point. No libido is not the same as no desire for sex with your partner. The former suggests a medical issue, the later a psychological one.

Otherwise, I wonder what would push his buttons, to get him excited? Could be something missing that he can't bare to reveal to his loving wife. Which means its wrapped tightly in guilt.

Pardon me if I am telling you things you already understand: Guys are very sensitive and can be extremely uptight about sexual things. So much of cultural stereotypes are there to hide this, and make guys feel better. They are, in fact, the weaker and more sentimental gender. But shhh, you have to pretend otherwise, or you'll bruise their fragile egos. But those stereotypes also carry HUGE guilt for any guy that fails to produce the pulsating baloney pony.

There's nothing I'm saying to contradict anything said by others, there's good advice here. If anything I've said prompts you to want to ask me more, feel free to write. I'm a gay guy. I know guys from inside and out.

on preview

FFF: Your notions sound fine and could help...unless he'd be happier if she jumped on top and just took him. Or he might vastly prefer to be the one that initiates. Guys can be either way and anythign in between.
posted by Goofyy at 12:58 AM on June 29, 2005

Oooh. Cool. I said the exact opposite of what some other smart people said. And I firmly believe in what they're saying, too. You gotta decide what's reasonable for you. What I described is pretty radical, and I'm not sure it's actually ethical...
posted by five fresh fish at 12:59 AM on June 29, 2005

Oooh, and what Goofyy says, too! Could be a big performance anxiety thing, too. And, come to think of it, that sounds like the ideal application for training: he has to learn to not be anxious about it, and familiarity breeds contentment.

If he's a slave, Goofyy, then I guess she'll have to try being the master, and explicitly tell him where the bases are, in which sequence, and that he get himself on them.

If he's an alpha initiator type, then either he's not doing his job (ie. initiating sex), or she's got to make a decision based on the following:

If her libido is in the normal range and his is substandard, that is a clear indicator that they need to split the sheets: it's reasonable and right for her to expect more.

If he's in the normal range, she has to decide how much she values him versus more-frequent sex. I think she stands a good chance of retraining him for more frequent sex; it's a matter of developing it as a good habit.

If the retraining does not work, then she will have to decide whether she can accept a lower frequency of sex than desired. If she can not, they will have to split. Is that fair? That is something she/they will have to decide.

If she's abnormally horny and values it so much she won't accept a lower amount, it's again a clear indication they need to split. I don't think it's reasonable and right to turn someone into a sex slave against their explicit will.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:12 AM on June 29, 2005

It occurs to me that's incomplete:

...explicitly tell him where the bases are, in which sequence, when to move to the next one, and that he get himself workin' on that task, pronto.

(And "task" is a good word to use: I believe you'll find many men respond well to tasks. cf. The Wonder of Boys.

Maybe an actual slave can complete that list in better/correct detail.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:17 AM on June 29, 2005

gah. in the spirit of not being a smartass in AskMe, maybe strike the "get himself working pronto" part. i can imagine days when i'd be really upset with that kind of maybe-nasty-depending-on-tone-of-voice prodding.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:20 AM on June 29, 2005

Gee, FFF, you like to sling the lingo, hmm?

Putting it in such strong terms can be misleading. A guy can have desires he's totally uncomfortable with! But he can learn to get token titillation to those desires without having to even face them. Remember, the most important sex organ is the one between your ears.

And nothing here supposes he's going in the submissive direction. Maybe he's very disturbed because he was excited by her pain? This would make a guy lacking knowledge of such things very upset, and totally uncertain about what to do, and afraid to talk to anyone about it (there is no reason why a guy can't be both excited by a partner's pain AND concerned). And we're just speculating about such things anyhow.

I think the speculation is appropriate, because rhapsodie doesn't want to reveal intimate details more than she's comfortable, and there's probably things she might not even think of. So we give her a broad spread of ponderables.
posted by Goofyy at 1:47 AM on June 29, 2005

The speculation isn't inappropriate but I'm still firmly in the "if he has no libido *at all* he see a doctor, and if he has a libido but not desire for his partner they should both see a counselor/shrink" camp. That's the first step, in my opinion.

(Okay second. First is sitting down and having a reall heart to heart. No blowing it off. If he's unable to do so that's another clear sign that counselling is needed.)
posted by Justinian at 2:00 AM on June 29, 2005

(it should say "if he has no libido at all, he should certainly see a doctor", above. Brain no work. Words not there.)
posted by Justinian at 2:01 AM on June 29, 2005

And why, Justinian, isn't the speculation appropriate, and who are you to say? The speculation supposes the idea that the lady can't get her husband to accept help. So we speculate so maybe something rings bells and she can spark things up.

As noted in my original post, you're spot-on in your differentiation. But note, the lady didn't answer your question, so we're working on the idea that its too personal to offer further input (which is fine, its a terribly delicate topic for lots of people).
posted by Goofyy at 2:25 AM on June 29, 2005

...there's probably things she might not even think of. So we give her a broad spread of ponderables.

Well, if nothing else, there are things I'm not thinking of that you and others are, so hopefully we'll manage to cover all the bases in the end. This is the Roomba thread of AskMe!
posted by five fresh fish at 2:30 AM on June 29, 2005

I think five fresh fish and Gooffy both have brilliant responses; I'd like to spotlight this:

I wonder what would push his buttons, to get him excited? Could be something missing that he can't bare to reveal to his loving wife.

This is a possibility that's been overlooked in the concern over the possible effects of the "hurting your wife" aspect. You should definitely try to find out about this, after having gone through various possibilities in your own mind and decided how you feel about them, and bracing yourself to react calmly and nonjudgmentally no matter what he says. The last thing you want is to draw him out and get him to whisper his secret, his cock's desire, only to go "You want WHAT??" But if it turns out there's something that will turn him on that you don't have a problem providing, you'll both be much happier. (And don't get trapped in the "why can't my sexy self be enough?" thing: none of us can help what turns us on.)

Oh, and this is a great thread. You deserve a lot of the credit, rhapsodie; the way you formulated the question obviously inspired good responses.
posted by languagehat at 7:14 AM on June 29, 2005

The sad part about living in Alaska is that the rest of the world is up and working hours before me. Including this thread. There are a ton of really great responses and suggestions here, it's hard to know where to begin.

But note, the lady didn't answer your question

I only refrained from answering the masturbation question because Justinian seemed extremely uncomfortable asking it in the first place. If I had any qualms about sharing personal sex information with the entire internet I wouldn't have posted this, plain and simple. To answer: he is hardly masturbating. Maybe once or twice during the span of time between our encounters, while I masturbate much more frequently.

I don't think I have an over-active sex drive and am not interested in thrice daily. But, to be honest, I've never even experienced it. I'd like to start with, maybe more like once a week. Work ourselves back into a higher regularity. And, like I may have stated somewhere earlier, it would probably be easier to get him to see a urologist than a therapist.

I know that he was brought up to feel dirty about sex. We both were, but I have a mind that craves all knowledge so I read as much as I could about the biology of sex when I was younger. And I know that what first brought us together in high school was my vast knowledge and un-embarassment about sex. I was willing to talk about it with anyone and everyone. It was a few years (yet still long before we were married) before he stopped blushing around me because of all my sex talk.

I've considered taking him, basically, and we have talked about that. He has said that he would have no problem if I took him in the middle of the night, and that sounds great to me until I'm in the moment and a slew of irrational, unhealthy fears stop me. What if he wakes and hates it? What if he really doesn't want it? What if it's me?

He knows I want more, and he feels terrible that he is not giving me more. Maybe he would be more willing to work on our sex life than I have let myself believe.

Could be something missing that he can't bare to reveal to his loving wife.

I've suspected this and have tried to get him to open up to me. When asked if he has any fantasies, he thinks for a bit and answers with, "not really." When asked what he wants me to do to him, what he wants to do to me, anything at all, he can't think of anything. And I am pretty open to just about anything. There are few things that I absolutely will not do, all of which involve bringing another person into our marriage bed through another partner or porn.

You deserve a lot of the credit, rhapsodie

Thanks. I am now really glad I asked this and didn't hide behind an 'anonymous.' I wouldn't have gotten these great suggestions if I hadn't been able to post replies.
posted by rhapsodie at 12:03 PM on June 29, 2005

I know that he was brought up to feel dirty about sex... It was a few years (yet still long before we were married) before he stopped blushing around me because of all my sex talk.

This might be a significant part of the problem. It sounds like he was raised to believe sex was dirty/bad, then felt guilt over wanting to have sex before marriage, and then once you got married, sex hurt you and made you cry, and then depression and anti-depressants lowered his libido for a long time and he figured out how to get along without sex. Counselling is probably a very good idea, if only to work through the "sex is BAD" idea that your vulvodynia probably helped to confirm (once again, not your fault). However, convincing him that it's worth it is likely half the battle.

I've often wondered how people go from "sex is destructive to our relationship and must be refrained from" one day and "yay we're married, bring on the sex!" the next. I know girls who have wondered whether it is sin to feel sexual desire for the boys they are dating or engaged to, and I'm just not sure how they sort that one out when they make the switch.

Maybe this is a good situation to approach with "I statements". He doesn't seem to be having a problem with the situation, but it's clearly driving you up the wall. Perhaps an approach that stresses the ways in which this situation is hurting you would be most effective. Then again, you don't want to add performance anxiety to the mix, but it is very important that he knows how much of an issue this is.

Have you thought about what you'll do if he refuses to address the situation? It's a hard question—hard to know which straw breaks the camel's back—but one to be considered when talking about how important this is to you.
posted by heatherann at 1:20 PM on June 29, 2005

What heatherann says about the confluence of events and childhood programming.

I think you two can work through this successfully. Having read your latest response, I now think you need to shoulder a good chunk of the responsibility for what's going on. It sounds to me like he wants you to take more control: when, where, how. Do so, after getting his explicit agreement on you being the primary initiator, and a truthful promise that he will (a) honestly make an effort when he has no good reason to say no; and (b) will say no when he truly is not capable of ending up feeling like it was worth the effort.

A whole lot of what you've been describing sounds like stuff my wife and I have passed through. As we approach age forty, things have never been so good. We seem to have come to a most excellent understanding of what's what.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:01 PM on June 29, 2005

Goofyy: And why, Justinian, isn't the speculation appropriate, and who are you to say?

Huh? Methinks you read too fast. Read my post again. I said the speculation wasn't INappropriate. I say enough stupid thinks without having to cop to stupid things I actually didn't say!
posted by Justinian at 3:47 PM on June 29, 2005

Rhapsodie: Okay, if you guys are only having intercourse every month and a half or whatever and he is masturbating maybe one time between those sessions, that's probably enough of a flag to definitely see a psychologist and/or medical doctor. I do not mean to suggest that it is completely outside the range of normal male sexuality (it isn't) but it *is* far enough to one side of the bell curve to warrant seeking professional opinions, especially if he was raised to think of sex as dirty.
posted by Justinian at 3:51 PM on June 29, 2005

> I asked him about it, but he just shrugs and says he doesn't > know. He is like this with a lot of things though, not just our > sex life.


Sounds to me like he's in a depressed headspace... lack of enthusiasm for everyday activities is a sure sign.

I would caution (although i'm pretty sure this has been talked about a ways upthread) to be very careful in the words you choose. When someone is depressed, making it seem like any of the behaviors symptomatic of depression are fully under his control and that he can just 'snap out of it' and get right back to getting sweaty with you is a dangerous road to go down as it will close a lot more doors than it opens.

On some level, this needs to be something on his terms, and what you need to do is express that your needs arent being met, that you love him and want to be able to express that love physically (corny i know) and that there are ways to work this out.

Also, n+1 to the 'hurting a partner being a turnoff' thing... that would scare me even if it just hurt a little to the point where i'd be willing to go without, especially if i was married to someone.

Complicated problem, good luck.
posted by softlord at 6:10 PM on June 29, 2005

When someone is depressed, making it seem like any of the behaviors symptomatic of depression are fully under his control and that he can just 'snap out of it' and get right back to getting sweaty with you is a dangerous road to go down as it will close a lot more doors than it opens.

Re-read that. It's so very true.

And at the same time, in my experience, it would have been really nice to have someone take control and make sure I did the right things to break my depression. Dunno how'd I'd have reacted had anyone tried being that direct and domineering. I'm sure I'd have been quite furious to begin with. I don't know if I'd have eventually aquiesced.

Depression is a bitch.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:26 PM on June 29, 2005

BTW, this thread seems to be drawing to a close. I'm certain you can continue this discussion in email with anyone who's provided good information for you. Click the user names to find the addresses.

Best of luck resolving this!
posted by five fresh fish at 7:36 PM on June 29, 2005