Irrational jealousy?
December 24, 2011 5:58 PM Subscribe
My female friend's boyfriend knows a girl that has been his friend for ages and he even lets her sit on his lap. This girl is quite affectionate towards him. This makes my female friend very uncomfortable! When she discussed it with her boyfriend, he said it had been like that for 20 years and he wouldn't change. What should my female friend do?
Since her choices seem to be "let it go" or "leave him", I think she should decide what she's comfortable with and then commit to her decision.
posted by mhoye at 6:03 PM on December 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 6:03 PM on December 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Break up with him?
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:04 PM on December 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:04 PM on December 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Eh, seems inappropriate on his part but she either has to deal or break up with him. Probably she needs to talk about it with him and let him know how it makes her feel while being clear that she's not going to demand he change his behavior, but that he does need to know that every time he [let's her sit in his lap, for example], she gets upset/uncomfortable.
posted by DoubleLune at 6:10 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by DoubleLune at 6:10 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
As the sage Dan Savage would say, DTMFA.
posted by AMSBoethius at 6:11 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by AMSBoethius at 6:11 PM on December 24, 2011
A third alternative is to find her a boyfriend. He'll put a stop to it real quick.
posted by Ardiril at 6:13 PM on December 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by Ardiril at 6:13 PM on December 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
Female friend should get in her bf's lap when old friend shows up.
posted by brujita at 6:15 PM on December 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by brujita at 6:15 PM on December 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I love you now change generally doesn't work well. Unless he hid his friendship and the expression of same from his girlfriend while they were dating she should have known what she was getting into. Let it go or move on.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:17 PM on December 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 6:17 PM on December 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
If they have really been friends for 20 years, female friend should realize that unwarranted (if something were going to happen between those two, it already would have) jealousy is incredibly unattractive. She could probably throw enough of a fit to get him to stop, but ultimately it would just make her seem petty and unreasonable, and he would resent her for it.
posted by zachawry at 6:19 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by zachawry at 6:19 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
When she discussed it with him, did she give him an ultimatum? Because that never works. Maybe if she asked him to just tone it down out of respect to her? But if he's adamant about it and this is their long-term pattern, she either has to put up with it and commit to that... or let the guy go.
posted by sm1tten at 6:22 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by sm1tten at 6:22 PM on December 24, 2011
Although I think what I wrote above is valid, reasonable people can disagree on whether or not her jealousy is warranted. I think the best response is cjorgensen's: "I love you now change" doesn't work. If he was the way he was before they started going out, she should have realized or seen this beforehand. Asking a new lover to change long-standing behavior is the best way possible to poison a relationship.
posted by zachawry at 6:27 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by zachawry at 6:27 PM on December 24, 2011
It sounds like this is neither a new thing, nor a concealed thing, but something that openly came with the package when she started dating him, and is part of the package.
Is she concerned that there is a threat to the monogamy of her relationship? It sounds like she isn't directly worried about that, more that she is habitually worried about it by proxy - that it's wandering into territory that she learned to consider inappropriate in the social circles she grew up in, and it was inappropriate in those circles because it wasn't innocent there. If so, then it reminds me a bit of "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".
She was right to explain how she felt, and right to ask that they change, but she shouldn't hold it against them if they don't change. As already said, let it go or move on.
How to let it go?
Is it a wide range of behaviours that cause the reaction, or just a few recurring ones (such as sitting in the lap)?
I like brujita's idea - do these people like the "Big Bang Theory" sitcom? She could claim ownership of the lap in a Sheldon-esque way, and make it a cutesy game (though not in a way that makes the other girl feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.). Or "I licked it - it's mine!"?
And if they do end up cheating on the girlfriend together, the same advice still applies to the next boyfriend who seems overly-close to a girl that he's known for decades. Judging new people by the crimes of the old people is to become bitter and jaded, and a broken trust and a broken heart are better scars to carry than that.
posted by -harlequin- at 6:33 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Is she concerned that there is a threat to the monogamy of her relationship? It sounds like she isn't directly worried about that, more that she is habitually worried about it by proxy - that it's wandering into territory that she learned to consider inappropriate in the social circles she grew up in, and it was inappropriate in those circles because it wasn't innocent there. If so, then it reminds me a bit of "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".
She was right to explain how she felt, and right to ask that they change, but she shouldn't hold it against them if they don't change. As already said, let it go or move on.
How to let it go?
Is it a wide range of behaviours that cause the reaction, or just a few recurring ones (such as sitting in the lap)?
I like brujita's idea - do these people like the "Big Bang Theory" sitcom? She could claim ownership of the lap in a Sheldon-esque way, and make it a cutesy game (though not in a way that makes the other girl feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.). Or "I licked it - it's mine!"?
And if they do end up cheating on the girlfriend together, the same advice still applies to the next boyfriend who seems overly-close to a girl that he's known for decades. Judging new people by the crimes of the old people is to become bitter and jaded, and a broken trust and a broken heart are better scars to carry than that.
posted by -harlequin- at 6:33 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
I have to think that his previous girlfriends have had to deal with this.
posted by rhizome at 6:33 PM on December 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 6:33 PM on December 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Not normal or appropriate at all.
Something more is going on here. As a guy, I would fully expect any woman I'm dating to (rightfully) FLIP OUT if I'm letting another woman be that affectionate towards me, and wouldn't fault her for thinking that there's something else going on here.
This guy either doesn't respect her and is a complete idiot, or there's some hide-the-pickle going on and he's trying to pass it off (rather poorly) as "just friends".
posted by chrisfromthelc at 6:46 PM on December 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Something more is going on here. As a guy, I would fully expect any woman I'm dating to (rightfully) FLIP OUT if I'm letting another woman be that affectionate towards me, and wouldn't fault her for thinking that there's something else going on here.
This guy either doesn't respect her and is a complete idiot, or there's some hide-the-pickle going on and he's trying to pass it off (rather poorly) as "just friends".
posted by chrisfromthelc at 6:46 PM on December 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
What would her boyfriend say if she sat in some dude's lap and acted affectionate towards him? Would her boyfriend get jealous? I score very low on the jealousy scale but if my boyfriend let some girl sit in his lap and act like that and then completely dismiss my feelings as being irrational, his ass would be hittin' the road. It's not even something that I would try to change. If he wants to act that way and try and justify it, he can find someone else to deal with that shit.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 6:51 PM on December 24, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by MaryDellamorte at 6:51 PM on December 24, 2011 [20 favorites]
How old are these people? 40s? Guy isn't married yet? This is why. Maybe girlfriend should point that out to him. She could also try again just once more with her guy and say, "just know that every time this happens, it makes me uncomfortable and feel like a third wheel." If he makes no change, that's your answer. Take it or leave it.
posted by amanda at 6:59 PM on December 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by amanda at 6:59 PM on December 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
yeah it's hard to tell from just a quick written description, but from here its not so much the action that's offensive as the "I've done this for 20 years" brushoff. if you're not at a bare minimum understanding and/or apologetic to your girlfriend about something that an idiot would know is boundary-challenged, then you're a dick, basically.
posted by facetious at 7:08 PM on December 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by facetious at 7:08 PM on December 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
Seems inappropriate.
For me, it would be grounds to end the relationship - the boyfriend is essentially saying that his displays of affection towards this girl are more important than the relationship with the girlfriend.
posted by Flood at 7:12 PM on December 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
For me, it would be grounds to end the relationship - the boyfriend is essentially saying that his displays of affection towards this girl are more important than the relationship with the girlfriend.
posted by Flood at 7:12 PM on December 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Not normal or appropriate at all. Something more is going on here.
This guy either doesn't respect her and is a complete idiot, or there's some hide-the-pickle going on
You are being parochial. I've been in situations where I am overwhelmed by signals from a woman blasting "I WANT YOUR BODY NOW!" into my mind, but I knew that what was actually going on was "Hi! Nice to see you". Looking at the two of us, we look pretty similar - there wasn't any obvious clue we had come to relate to people in such different ways.
I have seen many completely platonic people who lack romantic or sexual interest in each other, act and look exactly like lovers to regular people, without even realising it, because intense dance training has them spend so much time inside each other's intensely personal space that their body language shows the playful and affectionate ease around each other's bodies that many people go a lifetime without seeing in any context other than lovers.
There can be a wide world of differences in the way that people display affection, even within the same place or background or culture. That it isn't normal doesn't mean it must not be innocent, or disrespectful, or idiotic.
Similarly, I once had a dance partner whose idiot boyfriend was convinced she was cheating on him with me, and he poisoned his relationship with suspicion and jealousy until it died an ugly death, and he blamed me for stealing his love - someone I neither stole nor was interested in - and to this day I don't think he realises that the evil mastermind who sabotaged the relationship and whisked his girl away, was him.
posted by -harlequin- at 7:26 PM on December 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
This guy either doesn't respect her and is a complete idiot, or there's some hide-the-pickle going on
You are being parochial. I've been in situations where I am overwhelmed by signals from a woman blasting "I WANT YOUR BODY NOW!" into my mind, but I knew that what was actually going on was "Hi! Nice to see you". Looking at the two of us, we look pretty similar - there wasn't any obvious clue we had come to relate to people in such different ways.
I have seen many completely platonic people who lack romantic or sexual interest in each other, act and look exactly like lovers to regular people, without even realising it, because intense dance training has them spend so much time inside each other's intensely personal space that their body language shows the playful and affectionate ease around each other's bodies that many people go a lifetime without seeing in any context other than lovers.
There can be a wide world of differences in the way that people display affection, even within the same place or background or culture. That it isn't normal doesn't mean it must not be innocent, or disrespectful, or idiotic.
Similarly, I once had a dance partner whose idiot boyfriend was convinced she was cheating on him with me, and he poisoned his relationship with suspicion and jealousy until it died an ugly death, and he blamed me for stealing his love - someone I neither stole nor was interested in - and to this day I don't think he realises that the evil mastermind who sabotaged the relationship and whisked his girl away, was him.
posted by -harlequin- at 7:26 PM on December 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
(I forgot to note - the above idiot boyfriend, from his perspective thought he had a lot more "smoking gun" than the sitting in laps and showing affection mentioned here. It absolutely looked like smoke to him, suggesting fire, but it looked like smoke because even though he could understand how each instance could be - and probably was - innocent, legitimate, and necessary, at a gut level that much smoke just has to mean fire, right? He wasn't able to wrap his head around her being in a situation where those things weren't smoke at all.)
posted by -harlequin- at 7:38 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by -harlequin- at 7:38 PM on December 24, 2011
I have seen many completely platonic people who lack romantic or sexual interest in each other, act and look exactly like lovers to regular people...
I understand that, however, most reasonable people would put the brakes on it if their (supposedly) significant other expressed a problem with it, not tell them they aren't changing. That's what makes it inappropriate.
Having been on the girl's side of this situation, it feels like you're being replaced. When you speak up, and are told that it's not going to change, you pretty much are being replaced. It's a slap in the face for your partner to act like this in public where everyone else is wondering what the hell is going on too.
Call me old fashioned, but to continue to flaunt this in her face after she's expressed concern (and tell her it's not changing) is out-right assholish. She needs to ditch this idiot.
posted by chrisfromthelc at 7:45 PM on December 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
I understand that, however, most reasonable people would put the brakes on it if their (supposedly) significant other expressed a problem with it, not tell them they aren't changing. That's what makes it inappropriate.
Having been on the girl's side of this situation, it feels like you're being replaced. When you speak up, and are told that it's not going to change, you pretty much are being replaced. It's a slap in the face for your partner to act like this in public where everyone else is wondering what the hell is going on too.
Call me old fashioned, but to continue to flaunt this in her face after she's expressed concern (and tell her it's not changing) is out-right assholish. She needs to ditch this idiot.
posted by chrisfromthelc at 7:45 PM on December 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Surely the mefite disdain for "I love you, now change" isn't meant to extend to "I love you, now change one occasional, minor behavior that makes me uncomfortable", right? Because otherwise we're all going to have a lot of trouble settling down with partners when every instance of "I love you, would you please remember to turn off the oven when you're done baking?" and "I love you, would you please take your turn walking the dog?" gets read the same as "I love you, now give up your beloved hobbies, entire social circle and life plans, plus singing in the shower".
This whole "you can't change people" thing gets overstated if you ask me - I've been changed by partners and friends, for good and for bad; probably lots of people have. I've changed behaviors when friends made reasonable requests.
Maybe think about it this way: if your partner asked you to stop one isolated fairly trivial behavior, wouldn't you do so because you wanted them to be comfortable? Either this lap-sitting business is trivial, in which case it's reasonable to knock it off, or it's not trivial, in which case this relationship may not have a lot of future in its current form.
And I can't imagine sitting on a friend's lap knowing the while that it made the friend's partner uncomfortable. That would be like creating an alliance between the friend and me against the partner, which is precisely the kind of thing that I, as a well-intentioned friend, want to avoid.
posted by Frowner at 7:59 PM on December 24, 2011 [40 favorites]
This whole "you can't change people" thing gets overstated if you ask me - I've been changed by partners and friends, for good and for bad; probably lots of people have. I've changed behaviors when friends made reasonable requests.
Maybe think about it this way: if your partner asked you to stop one isolated fairly trivial behavior, wouldn't you do so because you wanted them to be comfortable? Either this lap-sitting business is trivial, in which case it's reasonable to knock it off, or it's not trivial, in which case this relationship may not have a lot of future in its current form.
And I can't imagine sitting on a friend's lap knowing the while that it made the friend's partner uncomfortable. That would be like creating an alliance between the friend and me against the partner, which is precisely the kind of thing that I, as a well-intentioned friend, want to avoid.
posted by Frowner at 7:59 PM on December 24, 2011 [40 favorites]
I don't care if they've been friends for 20 years: It's not cool to have another females ass touching your dong in front of your current. If neither of them gets that, there's either serious boundary issues or they collectively don't give a shit about how new girlfriend feels. Neither option augers well for the future. I say present it in some paraphrase of those terms & discuss from there. But I'll grant, I'm up for nuclear options tonight. She shouldn't fall for the old "no, we're fine, you're the nutter" line. It's not normal, and if she isn't OK with it, he needs to cut it out. It's called being considerate of the person you purportedly love.
posted by Ys at 9:01 PM on December 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by Ys at 9:01 PM on December 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Your friend should decide if this is something that's enough of a concern to make a stand on. Whether or not it's appropriate isn't up to outsiders, it's up to the two people in a relationship. If she thinks this is a deal-breaker, then she should leave. If he wants to change to make her more comfortable, he will, or he'll decide his friendship is more important.
Everyone decides how much autonomy and/or compromise is required to have a happy relationship. This is less about appropriateness than about give and take.
posted by xingcat at 9:05 PM on December 24, 2011
Everyone decides how much autonomy and/or compromise is required to have a happy relationship. This is less about appropriateness than about give and take.
posted by xingcat at 9:05 PM on December 24, 2011
This makes my female friend very uncomfortable! When she discussed it with her boyfriend, he said it had been like that for 20 years and he wouldn't change.
1. The proper answer to your SO saying "hey, this makes me uncomfortable" is, "okay, let's talk about it and try to come to a solution we're both happy with.
Someone who replies by basically saying "tough shit," without even TRYING to come to a solution both are happy with, is just not adult relationship material. The topic is almost irrelevant. It's easy to compromise when something is really unimportant to you. When something is really important to both of you, that's when compromising skills count most. In tough situations, someone who refuses to try and just shuts down and says tough shit, I'll do what I please, is someone I would never want to have as a partner.
That stubborn, selfish refusal to try to work it out, is the thing that would make me DTMFA with a quickness. Completely leaving aside the topic of what needed to be worked out.
2. Receiving physical affection from this woman is extremely important to him. So important to him that he would rather give up his other relationships than give it up. In my experience, that amount of importance is not within the range of opposite-sex people with 100% platonic feelings towards each other.
3. He's essentially told your friend that continuing to be physically affectionate with this woman is more important to him than your friend's discomfort, and that given a choice between physical affection with this woman and dating her, he'll be choosing the other woman. Obviously, he has the right to prioritize as he wishes. Similarly, your friend has the right to decide whether she's comfortable in a relationship where her comfort was prioritized below being able to another woman, and where he'd rather touch this woman than even be with her at all. I wouldn't be comfortable for a millisecond with that, myself, and it's perfectly reasonable for her not to be, either.
4. Monogamy is not always just about sex. It's okay to want a monogamous relationship where you are also monogamous about a degree of physical affection and touch that's not blatantly sexual. Lap-sitting is very solidly within the range of things that people in most monogamous relationships don' find acceptable. Obviously this guy doesn't want to be monogamous around lap-sitting, and that's fine for him, but if it's not fine for your friend, that's okay too. It sure wouldn't be okay for me nor for any guy I've ever dated.
posted by cairdeas at 9:08 PM on December 24, 2011 [14 favorites]
1. The proper answer to your SO saying "hey, this makes me uncomfortable" is, "okay, let's talk about it and try to come to a solution we're both happy with.
Someone who replies by basically saying "tough shit," without even TRYING to come to a solution both are happy with, is just not adult relationship material. The topic is almost irrelevant. It's easy to compromise when something is really unimportant to you. When something is really important to both of you, that's when compromising skills count most. In tough situations, someone who refuses to try and just shuts down and says tough shit, I'll do what I please, is someone I would never want to have as a partner.
That stubborn, selfish refusal to try to work it out, is the thing that would make me DTMFA with a quickness. Completely leaving aside the topic of what needed to be worked out.
2. Receiving physical affection from this woman is extremely important to him. So important to him that he would rather give up his other relationships than give it up. In my experience, that amount of importance is not within the range of opposite-sex people with 100% platonic feelings towards each other.
3. He's essentially told your friend that continuing to be physically affectionate with this woman is more important to him than your friend's discomfort, and that given a choice between physical affection with this woman and dating her, he'll be choosing the other woman. Obviously, he has the right to prioritize as he wishes. Similarly, your friend has the right to decide whether she's comfortable in a relationship where her comfort was prioritized below being able to another woman, and where he'd rather touch this woman than even be with her at all. I wouldn't be comfortable for a millisecond with that, myself, and it's perfectly reasonable for her not to be, either.
4. Monogamy is not always just about sex. It's okay to want a monogamous relationship where you are also monogamous about a degree of physical affection and touch that's not blatantly sexual. Lap-sitting is very solidly within the range of things that people in most monogamous relationships don' find acceptable. Obviously this guy doesn't want to be monogamous around lap-sitting, and that's fine for him, but if it's not fine for your friend, that's okay too. It sure wouldn't be okay for me nor for any guy I've ever dated.
posted by cairdeas at 9:08 PM on December 24, 2011 [14 favorites]
I'm usually very pro-girlfriend in these kind of situations, but if it's been going on for twenty years it is ridiculous and arbitrary to expect it to stop for someone new. I have a lot of guy friends with whom I am affectionate, and I'd hate to think that our decades-long friendship would have to be altered because some new woman (compared to multiple-decade friendships any relationship that hadn't already grown accustomed to this behavior is new) wanted to mark her territory.
If the woman wants to have a relationship where her boyfriend can't have types of contact of long standing with people he's known most of his life (assuming a relatively young person) then she needs to find someone else who doesn't have that type of relationship with his friends.
She is perfectly free to find the behavior unacceptable, and he is perfectly free to tell her that he values his longstanding friendships over her possessiveness. Neither person is wrong, but the two stances are incompatible.
posted by winna at 9:27 PM on December 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
If the woman wants to have a relationship where her boyfriend can't have types of contact of long standing with people he's known most of his life (assuming a relatively young person) then she needs to find someone else who doesn't have that type of relationship with his friends.
She is perfectly free to find the behavior unacceptable, and he is perfectly free to tell her that he values his longstanding friendships over her possessiveness. Neither person is wrong, but the two stances are incompatible.
posted by winna at 9:27 PM on December 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I generally think that it is disrespectful for a any woman to sit on any man's lap in front of their significant other. Though this is my personal feeling.
The real issue here is that he has stated that he has no intention of compromising on this Big Thing. That alone would make me dump him.
posted by Shouraku at 10:07 PM on December 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
The real issue here is that he has stated that he has no intention of compromising on this Big Thing. That alone would make me dump him.
posted by Shouraku at 10:07 PM on December 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm usually very pro-girlfriend in these kind of situations, but if it's been going on for twenty years it is ridiculous and arbitrary to expect it to stop for someone new.
This is an idiosyncratic position, to put it mildly. Lap-sitting between platonic friends is so important that it must. not. change. even when it's widely considered a very intimate behavior between monogamous couples?
I would think that if you're such close friends with a guy, you'd back off a little, so that he could have a peaceful relationship with his girlfriend. But no, you've staked your claim to his lap and you're not moving?
posted by jayder at 10:35 PM on December 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
This is an idiosyncratic position, to put it mildly. Lap-sitting between platonic friends is so important that it must. not. change. even when it's widely considered a very intimate behavior between monogamous couples?
I would think that if you're such close friends with a guy, you'd back off a little, so that he could have a peaceful relationship with his girlfriend. But no, you've staked your claim to his lap and you're not moving?
posted by jayder at 10:35 PM on December 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
mikeanegus, it's hard to say what your friend should do without more information. Have the boyfriend and this female friend ever had a romantic or sexual entanglement? Or have they been purely platonic friends who cuddle for two decades?
Is the boyfriend generally stubborn and/or selfish? Or is he generally willing to compromise but not on this issue? If so, why is this issue particularly important to him?
How often does the boyfriend spend time with this female friend? How upset does your friend get when she sees the two of them be physically affectionate? Would it be feasible for your friend to arrange to avoid seeing the two of them together?
How much does your friend care about this boyfriend? Does she feel like she can trust him in general? Is she generally pretty conventional in her approach to relationships, wanting things to follow the largely unspoken rules of how relationships "should be" or is she open to alternative approaches?
I guess what I'm trying to say, mikeanegus, is that your friend should reflect on all of this. Some of that is internal, introspective work and some of that is investigatory. It seems like there are two basic approaches. One, she can decide (or come to realize) that she's not okay with what the boyfriend is doing and try to change it. That could involve just breaking up with the boyfriend, trying to talk with him more about how much it bothers her or giving some kind of ultimatum. "I need you to stop letting her sit on your lap. If you can't do that, I'm not going to be comfortable being romantic with you."
The other basic approach would be to see if she can accept how things are. There's a few different things she could do, if she decides that the relationship is worth it to her and that she trusts the boyfriend. She could try to become friends with this female friend. (And if that female friend resists her attempts at friendship, that could give her some important information about the relationship dynamics going on.) She could ask her boyfriend to tell her about his friend and why she's important to him. She could try to do some form of desensitization therapy--this would probably require the co-operation of the boyfriend and the female friend and would involve like first just sitting in a room all together and then maybe being present while they touch a little bit and then working up to being there while she sits on his lap.
She could read about and write about and contemplate different models of romantic relationships. A lot of the other answers here seem to be based on a kind of honor model, where a romantic relationship (no matter how new) always trumps a pre-existing friendship (no matter how old). But this is far from the only model. I'm not trying to say it's wrong to use that model, but like any tool it works better in some situations than others. Basically your friend needs to figure out what is more important to her--a certain approach to relationships or being in a relationship with this guy. No one else can tell her what will work better for her, or what she needs. Only she can figure that out--and only her and her boyfriend can determine if their relationship needs are compatible.
posted by overglow at 10:38 PM on December 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is the boyfriend generally stubborn and/or selfish? Or is he generally willing to compromise but not on this issue? If so, why is this issue particularly important to him?
How often does the boyfriend spend time with this female friend? How upset does your friend get when she sees the two of them be physically affectionate? Would it be feasible for your friend to arrange to avoid seeing the two of them together?
How much does your friend care about this boyfriend? Does she feel like she can trust him in general? Is she generally pretty conventional in her approach to relationships, wanting things to follow the largely unspoken rules of how relationships "should be" or is she open to alternative approaches?
I guess what I'm trying to say, mikeanegus, is that your friend should reflect on all of this. Some of that is internal, introspective work and some of that is investigatory. It seems like there are two basic approaches. One, she can decide (or come to realize) that she's not okay with what the boyfriend is doing and try to change it. That could involve just breaking up with the boyfriend, trying to talk with him more about how much it bothers her or giving some kind of ultimatum. "I need you to stop letting her sit on your lap. If you can't do that, I'm not going to be comfortable being romantic with you."
The other basic approach would be to see if she can accept how things are. There's a few different things she could do, if she decides that the relationship is worth it to her and that she trusts the boyfriend. She could try to become friends with this female friend. (And if that female friend resists her attempts at friendship, that could give her some important information about the relationship dynamics going on.) She could ask her boyfriend to tell her about his friend and why she's important to him. She could try to do some form of desensitization therapy--this would probably require the co-operation of the boyfriend and the female friend and would involve like first just sitting in a room all together and then maybe being present while they touch a little bit and then working up to being there while she sits on his lap.
She could read about and write about and contemplate different models of romantic relationships. A lot of the other answers here seem to be based on a kind of honor model, where a romantic relationship (no matter how new) always trumps a pre-existing friendship (no matter how old). But this is far from the only model. I'm not trying to say it's wrong to use that model, but like any tool it works better in some situations than others. Basically your friend needs to figure out what is more important to her--a certain approach to relationships or being in a relationship with this guy. No one else can tell her what will work better for her, or what she needs. Only she can figure that out--and only her and her boyfriend can determine if their relationship needs are compatible.
posted by overglow at 10:38 PM on December 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
(going to steal your analogy -harlequin-, sorry but I can't think up a better one at the moment)
Competitive dancers are very accustom to being in each others personal space. It is common and accepted within their subculture and does not necessarily indicate romantic interest.
So, a bunch of competitive dancers go to a strict catholic church for mass one day. Should they sit on each others laps there? Pet each other? Rub each others backs? I would think that most would not do such things out of respect for the public contract of acceptable behavior inside of a church.
Generally, it is considered inappropriate for a woman to sit in another woman's boyfriends lap in the American Culture. It is not publicly acceptable, even if it was very common for competitive dancers in their own culture and at their own events. That still does not change the fact that social standard everywhere else consider it rude.
My point here is that the boyfriend and this woman have a tradition that is generally not considered appropriate in our society. They have their own little subculture so to speak, and just as we would expect competitive dancers to be empathetic to the fact that their traditions would not be acceptable in a strict catholic church, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some leeway from the boyfriend and his female friend.
At the very least an agreed upon "we will not do this with girlfriend around". Something to show a little empathy and understanding of the social contract.
posted by Shouraku at 11:03 PM on December 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Competitive dancers are very accustom to being in each others personal space. It is common and accepted within their subculture and does not necessarily indicate romantic interest.
So, a bunch of competitive dancers go to a strict catholic church for mass one day. Should they sit on each others laps there? Pet each other? Rub each others backs? I would think that most would not do such things out of respect for the public contract of acceptable behavior inside of a church.
Generally, it is considered inappropriate for a woman to sit in another woman's boyfriends lap in the American Culture. It is not publicly acceptable, even if it was very common for competitive dancers in their own culture and at their own events. That still does not change the fact that social standard everywhere else consider it rude.
My point here is that the boyfriend and this woman have a tradition that is generally not considered appropriate in our society. They have their own little subculture so to speak, and just as we would expect competitive dancers to be empathetic to the fact that their traditions would not be acceptable in a strict catholic church, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some leeway from the boyfriend and his female friend.
At the very least an agreed upon "we will not do this with girlfriend around". Something to show a little empathy and understanding of the social contract.
posted by Shouraku at 11:03 PM on December 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Irrational jealousy? Yes. He's known her for longer than he's known the girlfriend.
posted by Michael Pemulis at 11:14 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by Michael Pemulis at 11:14 PM on December 24, 2011
At the very least an agreed upon "we will not do this with girlfriend around".
So they can be sneaky about it?
If you can't do it in front of someone you supposedly love, you're going to do it behind their back?
This comes off as way weird to me. A big hug and a kiss on arrival and departure I could live with. Sitting next to each other, loaning a jacket, maybe even sitting on his lap if the girlfriend's car was crowded and she were driving, but sitting on his lap instead of a chair when they're just hanging out? Too weird. Sure, maybe they've done if for years WHEN HE HASN'T BEEN IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP, but not when he's supposed to be an item with another woman. Even if she was sitting on his lap when he met the girlfriend, I would have thought that would have been phased out as he and the girlfriend became more intimate.
DTMFA
posted by BlueHorse at 11:15 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
So they can be sneaky about it?
If you can't do it in front of someone you supposedly love, you're going to do it behind their back?
This comes off as way weird to me. A big hug and a kiss on arrival and departure I could live with. Sitting next to each other, loaning a jacket, maybe even sitting on his lap if the girlfriend's car was crowded and she were driving, but sitting on his lap instead of a chair when they're just hanging out? Too weird. Sure, maybe they've done if for years WHEN HE HASN'T BEEN IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP, but not when he's supposed to be an item with another woman. Even if she was sitting on his lap when he met the girlfriend, I would have thought that would have been phased out as he and the girlfriend became more intimate.
DTMFA
posted by BlueHorse at 11:15 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Why doesn't he care, at all? Dump.
posted by oceanjesse at 11:17 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 11:17 PM on December 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A couple of comments deleted; side conversations can go to email. Also, commenters need to address the question asked by the OP, not debate other people's answers. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:37 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by taz (staff) at 11:37 PM on December 24, 2011
Sorry BlueHorse, I meant "agreed upon" as in everyone agrees upon it, including the girlfriend. Such as "we won't do it with you around if that is OK with you".
posted by Shouraku at 11:37 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by Shouraku at 11:37 PM on December 24, 2011
No good can come from any of this - the friend should just dump him now.
posted by mleigh at 11:52 PM on December 24, 2011
posted by mleigh at 11:52 PM on December 24, 2011
This sounds goofy as Hell. I have friends of both sexes who I love dearly but we don't have to crawl each other to show we care. Unless the boyfriend's friend is a toddler who cant safely sit up by herself on furniture I see no reason why she needs his lap. What a dumb thing for him to fight for. Its pretty obvious he doesn't think much of his new girlfriend.
posted by Kloryne at 1:11 AM on December 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Kloryne at 1:11 AM on December 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Ugh, this is weird. I don't see how the length of their friendship makes the girlfriend's jealousy irrational. Look, I've had many male best friends, including one who I've known for over a decade, who I've never wanted to date, who I'm not attracted to as a "type" or as an individual, and there was still an odd heterosexual thrill when we used to hug or play with each other's hair or whatever. I don't even mean arousal, just intimacy of a kind that temporarily, deliberately replaces the significant other with someone else from whom you can derive physical and emotional closeness. Perhaps this is not always the case, but even if they're supposedly innocent, there's a pretty good chance they're enjoying the mutual flirtation they have going. And twenty years without boning doesn't mean anything, for the record.
Again, I've been that girl, and when my friends start dating other girls, I definitely back off. It's fun precisely because it is toying with boundaries. Does this girl still sit on her father's lap? Her brother's lap? A: No, because it's weird. I had to grow up a bit before I understood the dynamics at play, but two questions: 1) If this girl knew that it made your friend uncomfortable, would she continue to sit on boyfriend's lap? And 2) why is physical affection and lap-sitting such a crucial aspect of their relationship if they're friends on multiple levels?
If I were the girlfriend, I would feel jealous and humiliated. Does this happen when she's around? What exactly is she supposed to be doing while some rando is sitting on her boyfriend's lap? Sorry, this situation is just terrible.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:17 AM on December 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
Again, I've been that girl, and when my friends start dating other girls, I definitely back off. It's fun precisely because it is toying with boundaries. Does this girl still sit on her father's lap? Her brother's lap? A: No, because it's weird. I had to grow up a bit before I understood the dynamics at play, but two questions: 1) If this girl knew that it made your friend uncomfortable, would she continue to sit on boyfriend's lap? And 2) why is physical affection and lap-sitting such a crucial aspect of their relationship if they're friends on multiple levels?
If I were the girlfriend, I would feel jealous and humiliated. Does this happen when she's around? What exactly is she supposed to be doing while some rando is sitting on her boyfriend's lap? Sorry, this situation is just terrible.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:17 AM on December 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
You didn't post any potential mitigating factors, but a couple might be:
1. Female friend just doesn't date guys. Now, I just don't date guys and I could conceivably see having some kind of cuddly relationship with a male friend of long-standing where I occasionally sat in his lap (well, this would be hugely out of character for me personally) And yet even there it would be a fairly intimate thing and I wouldn't assume that the guy's girlfriend was automatically down with this.
2. Guy and friend come from a very touchy-feely subculture (as suggested above). I do know some hippie types (a little less rare than competitive dancers) who cuddle a lot. And yet I haven't noticed too much ambiguous cuddling that involves men and women (which is funny; I only just realized this). Women, queer or straight, may cuddle each other regardless of relationship status. Queer men may cuddle women. But not a lot of dude/dude cuddling and I really haven't seen men and women cuddling unless there was some flirty behavior involved.
See, that's what strikes me about this - it's difficult to imagine a man and a woman doing this lap-sitting business without there being (to use that excellent phrase from upthread) a "heterosexual frisson". The only freelance lap-sitting I've ever done did indeed have that quality, and I'm queer, for pete's sake. I find it much easier to imagine (if this really has been going on for twenty years - I assume it would have started in high school, and honestly the thought of a thirty-five-year-old dude unable to give up the lap-sitting as a courtesy does not exactly impress me) that this is a flirty thing, that it's about a "we could have, and we've still got it!" dynamic between the two. Or else that the girl in the picture is one of those women who really, really needs male approval and the guy is super-into it - is she really good-looking but insecure? Either way, even if no actual relationship is ever contemplated...I would be kind of squicked if I had to watch my SO cuddle some other woman.
posted by Frowner at 5:42 AM on December 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
1. Female friend just doesn't date guys. Now, I just don't date guys and I could conceivably see having some kind of cuddly relationship with a male friend of long-standing where I occasionally sat in his lap (well, this would be hugely out of character for me personally) And yet even there it would be a fairly intimate thing and I wouldn't assume that the guy's girlfriend was automatically down with this.
2. Guy and friend come from a very touchy-feely subculture (as suggested above). I do know some hippie types (a little less rare than competitive dancers) who cuddle a lot. And yet I haven't noticed too much ambiguous cuddling that involves men and women (which is funny; I only just realized this). Women, queer or straight, may cuddle each other regardless of relationship status. Queer men may cuddle women. But not a lot of dude/dude cuddling and I really haven't seen men and women cuddling unless there was some flirty behavior involved.
See, that's what strikes me about this - it's difficult to imagine a man and a woman doing this lap-sitting business without there being (to use that excellent phrase from upthread) a "heterosexual frisson". The only freelance lap-sitting I've ever done did indeed have that quality, and I'm queer, for pete's sake. I find it much easier to imagine (if this really has been going on for twenty years - I assume it would have started in high school, and honestly the thought of a thirty-five-year-old dude unable to give up the lap-sitting as a courtesy does not exactly impress me) that this is a flirty thing, that it's about a "we could have, and we've still got it!" dynamic between the two. Or else that the girl in the picture is one of those women who really, really needs male approval and the guy is super-into it - is she really good-looking but insecure? Either way, even if no actual relationship is ever contemplated...I would be kind of squicked if I had to watch my SO cuddle some other woman.
posted by Frowner at 5:42 AM on December 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
After thinking about it overnight (Merry Christmas!) it occurred to me that what's pretty offensive and I bet is what's going on is that boyfriend doesn't want to give this up because deep down, he likes to have a girlfriend and yet the occasional other-woman-all-over-him in front of the girlfriend. The in front of the girlfriend is important. Because if she tolerates his harem-like behavior he must be pretty special and hot and desired, right?
posted by jayder at 6:59 AM on December 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by jayder at 6:59 AM on December 25, 2011 [7 favorites]
Completely inappropriate. If he doesn't respect your request–which is not irrational–then he's a dick and you need to dump him. It's a small thing and shouldn't be a big deal to stop, especially if he values your relationship.
I say this as as someone who was very good platonic friends with a man who was as physically affectionate as me. When we were both single, we were both physically affectionate with each other: holding hands, snuggling, sleeping in the same bed when we went on trips, etc. in fact, most ppl assumed we were a couple. But as soon as either of us started dating someone else, we cut that shit out. Why? Because it's inappropriate and disrespectful to the person we were dating.
And it's not like it killed our friendship or made our friendship less than it was bc we stopped being affectionate with each other. So to the ppl saying, OMG WE WERE FRIENDS WAAAAAY BEFORE THIS GIRLFRIEND CAME ALONG, WE SHOULD STILL BE ABLE TO GROPE EACH OTHER IN FRONT OF HER—WAAAH!! Bullshit. If your friendship was that strong, you should be able to continue it without the lap sits.
posted by violetk at 8:43 AM on December 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
I say this as as someone who was very good platonic friends with a man who was as physically affectionate as me. When we were both single, we were both physically affectionate with each other: holding hands, snuggling, sleeping in the same bed when we went on trips, etc. in fact, most ppl assumed we were a couple. But as soon as either of us started dating someone else, we cut that shit out. Why? Because it's inappropriate and disrespectful to the person we were dating.
And it's not like it killed our friendship or made our friendship less than it was bc we stopped being affectionate with each other. So to the ppl saying, OMG WE WERE FRIENDS WAAAAAY BEFORE THIS GIRLFRIEND CAME ALONG, WE SHOULD STILL BE ABLE TO GROPE EACH OTHER IN FRONT OF HER—WAAAH!! Bullshit. If your friendship was that strong, you should be able to continue it without the lap sits.
posted by violetk at 8:43 AM on December 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
deep down, he likes to have a girlfriend and yet the occasional other-woman-all-over-him in front of the girlfriend. The in front of the girlfriend is important. Because if she tolerates his harem-like behavior he must be pretty special and hot and desired, right?
Maybe. I'm really not sure. It seems like we know very little about the situation and like you're assuming an awful lot. I mean, maybe the boyfriend and this other girl have some kind of surrogate mother-son thing going on. Or maybe their parents both died at around the same time and they became like family to each other, maybe she's the sister he never had, maybe their relationship is deeply physical affectionate but not sexual.
Of course, those are just guesses I'm making. OP's friend, if you're reading this, keep that in mind. None of us know very much about the situation--we're all just guessing, and our guesses probably say more about who we are and the experiences we've had than they do about your actual situation.
Does this happen when she's around?
Good question. mikeanegus, if you could answer some of these types of questions, we might be able to give more clear advice to your friend.
What exactly is she supposed to be doing while some rando is sitting on her boyfriend's lap? Sorry, this situation is just terrible.
The thing is, the friend isn't just some rando. She's someone who the boyfriend has been close to for twenty years. I think it's important for the boyfriend to take his girlfriend's needs and emotions into account--but it's also important for the girlfriend to acknowledge that the boyfriend has pre-existing relationships, and those people also have emotions that are valid.
But it's an interesting question--what could she do while female friend is sitting on the boyfriend's lap? A lot depends on the context of course. Here are some things I can think of: she could sit beside them, and hold her boyfriend's hand. She could circulate through the party, catching up with old friends or meeting new people. She could sit across from them and chat with both of them. She could talk with them and knit. She could bring more friends into the room and get some kind of game started.
posted by overglow at 9:33 AM on December 25, 2011
Maybe. I'm really not sure. It seems like we know very little about the situation and like you're assuming an awful lot. I mean, maybe the boyfriend and this other girl have some kind of surrogate mother-son thing going on. Or maybe their parents both died at around the same time and they became like family to each other, maybe she's the sister he never had, maybe their relationship is deeply physical affectionate but not sexual.
Of course, those are just guesses I'm making. OP's friend, if you're reading this, keep that in mind. None of us know very much about the situation--we're all just guessing, and our guesses probably say more about who we are and the experiences we've had than they do about your actual situation.
Does this happen when she's around?
Good question. mikeanegus, if you could answer some of these types of questions, we might be able to give more clear advice to your friend.
What exactly is she supposed to be doing while some rando is sitting on her boyfriend's lap? Sorry, this situation is just terrible.
The thing is, the friend isn't just some rando. She's someone who the boyfriend has been close to for twenty years. I think it's important for the boyfriend to take his girlfriend's needs and emotions into account--but it's also important for the girlfriend to acknowledge that the boyfriend has pre-existing relationships, and those people also have emotions that are valid.
But it's an interesting question--what could she do while female friend is sitting on the boyfriend's lap? A lot depends on the context of course. Here are some things I can think of: she could sit beside them, and hold her boyfriend's hand. She could circulate through the party, catching up with old friends or meeting new people. She could sit across from them and chat with both of them. She could talk with them and knit. She could bring more friends into the room and get some kind of game started.
posted by overglow at 9:33 AM on December 25, 2011
But it's an interesting question--what could she do while female friend is sitting on the boyfriend's lap? A lot depends on the context of course. Here are some things I can think of: she could sit beside them, and hold her boyfriend's hand. She could circulate through the party, catching up with old friends or meeting new people. She could sit across from them and chat with both of them. She could talk with them and knit. She could bring more friends into the room and get some kind of game started.
I get your spirit (and I don't mean to argue with another commenter but your comment has helped me put my finger on a key distinction for me) but this places the onus on her to "busy herself" awkwardly while her boyfriend cuddles it up all touchy-feely with another woman. And when she doesn't like it, it seems like a small sacrifice to make.
I would totally agree with the boyfriend, I think, if the girlfriend was insisting that he not hug his female friend hello or goodbye. But we must make distinctions about what behaviors are arguably integral to a friendship (warm greetings arguably are) and what behaviors are optional and dispensable as circumstances warrant. (Consider the great example upthread about not sitting on his lap in church.)
I guess the bottom line for me is that it's really strange to consider lap-sitting with a female friend some impregnable, immovable, unchangeable Thing We Do; Like It Or Lump It. The fact that he would take that position about a behavior that surely not absolutely essential to the friendship seems colossally unkind to his girlfriend.
posted by jayder at 9:59 AM on December 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
I get your spirit (and I don't mean to argue with another commenter but your comment has helped me put my finger on a key distinction for me) but this places the onus on her to "busy herself" awkwardly while her boyfriend cuddles it up all touchy-feely with another woman. And when she doesn't like it, it seems like a small sacrifice to make.
I would totally agree with the boyfriend, I think, if the girlfriend was insisting that he not hug his female friend hello or goodbye. But we must make distinctions about what behaviors are arguably integral to a friendship (warm greetings arguably are) and what behaviors are optional and dispensable as circumstances warrant. (Consider the great example upthread about not sitting on his lap in church.)
I guess the bottom line for me is that it's really strange to consider lap-sitting with a female friend some impregnable, immovable, unchangeable Thing We Do; Like It Or Lump It. The fact that he would take that position about a behavior that surely not absolutely essential to the friendship seems colossally unkind to his girlfriend.
posted by jayder at 9:59 AM on December 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
One of my best friends is a guy i've known for 13 years. If my boyfriend told me he didn't trust my relationship with him, i'd think "Are you an idiot? You think i'm going to have a platonic relationship for 13 years and that its going to spontaneously become sexual or romantic! That's dumb and your lack of trust is disturbing."
Trusting your partner and feeling trusted by them is foundational in a good relationship. She needs to evaluate if she trusts him or not. A female friend sitting on an untrustworthy boyfriends lap is a problem, because you have a boyfriend who can't be trusted. A female friend sitting on a trustworthy boyfriends lap shouldn't be a problem.
posted by Kololo at 3:02 PM on December 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Trusting your partner and feeling trusted by them is foundational in a good relationship. She needs to evaluate if she trusts him or not. A female friend sitting on an untrustworthy boyfriends lap is a problem, because you have a boyfriend who can't be trusted. A female friend sitting on a trustworthy boyfriends lap shouldn't be a problem.
posted by Kololo at 3:02 PM on December 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sitting on laps is usually not just sitting on laps, upright with arms folded as if sitting on a chair. It usually involves leaning in, head on shoulder, arms round torso holding everything nice and steady, a bit of wriggling just to get comfortable, some giggling and mock groaning etc ... you get the picture. I'm not surprised the girlfriend is uncomfortable with this, and I also doubt the affection being expressed is all on female friend's side. Platonic or otherwise, this is an expression of sensual intimacy, of two people wanting to be in close physical contact with each other and presumably for a significant length of time. In front of the partner of one of them (you don't say whether the female friend has a partner, so I can only assume that they don't). Looking at it from the POV of a complete internet stranger, and going on the small amount of information you've provided, what you've described sounds a bit like a couple who either have previously had or still have feelings for each other but who can't or won't express them.
The main issue, as mentioned above, is the apparent lack of feeling being demonstrated by your friend's boyfriend towards her concerns. Yes, 20 years is a long time to be friends with someone, and yes, friends absolutely are and should be allowed to express their feelings towards each other in moments of physical warmth - that's only right and proper. But we're not talking about a big bear-hug or an arm round the shoulders or grabbing and holding someone's hand or jokey pushing / pulling or even a kiss of welcome or goodbye. We're talking about a sustained act of physical contact. Your friend is understandably unsettled by this, as would a lot of people be in the same circumstances.
If her boyfriend, as others have said, is more concerned about maintaining (and presumably not upsetting) his friendship at the expense of his acknowledged girlfriend, then the question is why. The answers (to quite a few outsiders / internet strangers, so it seems) are that he doesn't rate his current relationship as being on a par with his friendship, he doesn't respect his girlfriend as a person with feelings as important as those of his friend (and is she aware of the girlfriend's expressed concerns?) and he might enjoy the ego-stroking that he gets from the close physical and emotional attentions of two women in some pretty public arenas.
He might be a lovely man who's completely oblivious to the tensions he's creating, even once they were pointed out to him ("What? Who, Mary? Nah, we've always done this lap sitting thing, it's just a joke - lighten up!") but somehow it doesn't seem like that's the case. You asked what your friend should do - I think she should stand up for her right to be respected, and to have her feelings properly validated, in whatever way she feels best. That is important for her own self-esteem, as well as in setting markers for this relationship if she decides to continue in it.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 3:40 PM on December 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The main issue, as mentioned above, is the apparent lack of feeling being demonstrated by your friend's boyfriend towards her concerns. Yes, 20 years is a long time to be friends with someone, and yes, friends absolutely are and should be allowed to express their feelings towards each other in moments of physical warmth - that's only right and proper. But we're not talking about a big bear-hug or an arm round the shoulders or grabbing and holding someone's hand or jokey pushing / pulling or even a kiss of welcome or goodbye. We're talking about a sustained act of physical contact. Your friend is understandably unsettled by this, as would a lot of people be in the same circumstances.
If her boyfriend, as others have said, is more concerned about maintaining (and presumably not upsetting) his friendship at the expense of his acknowledged girlfriend, then the question is why. The answers (to quite a few outsiders / internet strangers, so it seems) are that he doesn't rate his current relationship as being on a par with his friendship, he doesn't respect his girlfriend as a person with feelings as important as those of his friend (and is she aware of the girlfriend's expressed concerns?) and he might enjoy the ego-stroking that he gets from the close physical and emotional attentions of two women in some pretty public arenas.
He might be a lovely man who's completely oblivious to the tensions he's creating, even once they were pointed out to him ("What? Who, Mary? Nah, we've always done this lap sitting thing, it's just a joke - lighten up!") but somehow it doesn't seem like that's the case. You asked what your friend should do - I think she should stand up for her right to be respected, and to have her feelings properly validated, in whatever way she feels best. That is important for her own self-esteem, as well as in setting markers for this relationship if she decides to continue in it.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 3:40 PM on December 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm a very unjealous person, and yet once again on the green, I find my eyes popping out of my head at the idea that there's a good and/or innocent explanation for this. I'm a little incredulous that there's any debate here, or that it's necessary to introduce analogies like, "well, what if the relationship with the girlfriend were a strict Catholic church..." [the analogy is good, I'm just gobsmacked that it's actually needed] There is absolutely no reason why lap-sitting, with naughty bits in as much wriggly proximity as possible, IN PUBLIC, IN FRONT OF THE GIRLFRIEND, is indispensable to a 20-year friendship. No, can't possibly give up the lap-sitting! We've been friends for 20 years! So your thoughts on the matter are irrelevant, girlfriend!
Unless the friendship is based on triangulation and jealousy games. Which is actually a real possibility, however sick.
I think they guy and the friend are deliberately trying to humiliate the girlfriend, honestly. Or maybe it's not deliberate. Maybe they're just humiliating her.
The only contrasting example I can think of is if the girlfriend decided to get a job giving lap dances, and if the boyfriend objects she can say, "lighten up, it's just a job." But that would be going to extreme lengths to make a point that wouldn't even scratch the guy's thick skin, if you ask me.
I'd say it was ultimatum time, except the relationship is probably (if only in a nebulous and unspoken way) not what the girlfriend thinks it is. I just don't see the guy being scared straight by an ultimatum, or anything, really. It's the friend he doesn't want to lose; the girlfriend he can take or leave.
posted by tel3path at 4:44 PM on December 25, 2011 [12 favorites]
Unless the friendship is based on triangulation and jealousy games. Which is actually a real possibility, however sick.
I think they guy and the friend are deliberately trying to humiliate the girlfriend, honestly. Or maybe it's not deliberate. Maybe they're just humiliating her.
The only contrasting example I can think of is if the girlfriend decided to get a job giving lap dances, and if the boyfriend objects she can say, "lighten up, it's just a job." But that would be going to extreme lengths to make a point that wouldn't even scratch the guy's thick skin, if you ask me.
I'd say it was ultimatum time, except the relationship is probably (if only in a nebulous and unspoken way) not what the girlfriend thinks it is. I just don't see the guy being scared straight by an ultimatum, or anything, really. It's the friend he doesn't want to lose; the girlfriend he can take or leave.
posted by tel3path at 4:44 PM on December 25, 2011 [12 favorites]
most reasonable people would put the brakes on it if their (supposedly) significant other expressed a problem with it
My friendships don't change at the whim of the women I date. If they expect them to, they should seek romance elsewhere.
This woman shouldn't give an ultimatum -- any guy worth dating would dump her instantly for such childishness. She should either respect the friendship as it exists, or move on. He's already expressed his stance; the resulting decision and action should be entirely hers.
posted by coolguymichael at 5:08 PM on December 25, 2011
My friendships don't change at the whim of the women I date. If they expect them to, they should seek romance elsewhere.
This woman shouldn't give an ultimatum -- any guy worth dating would dump her instantly for such childishness. She should either respect the friendship as it exists, or move on. He's already expressed his stance; the resulting decision and action should be entirely hers.
posted by coolguymichael at 5:08 PM on December 25, 2011
I don't think asking a boyfriend to not have his girl buddy sit on his lap is a whim. If someone I was dating said, "when you let girl buddy sit in your lap, it hurts my feelings and makes me feel belittled," I would certainly consider changing that behavior. Also, to describe it as 'at the whim of the women I date' would make me feel like the latest in a long line of women, that I'm disposable and that this relationship is not expected to last. It's saying that the feelings of the girlfriend don't matter. It implies that he doesn't find his behavior 'worth changing' because why bother if I won't be here this time next year.
I couldn't imagine being at a party with my boyfriend and he's sitting there with his girl buddy in his lap and one my friends comes over to say hello and I have to introduce my boyfriend. It would make me feel like I wasn't part of a couple.
There is single behavior and couple behavior and part of couple behavior is having respect and consideration for your partner.
posted by shoesietart at 6:30 PM on December 25, 2011 [9 favorites]
I couldn't imagine being at a party with my boyfriend and he's sitting there with his girl buddy in his lap and one my friends comes over to say hello and I have to introduce my boyfriend. It would make me feel like I wasn't part of a couple.
There is single behavior and couple behavior and part of couple behavior is having respect and consideration for your partner.
posted by shoesietart at 6:30 PM on December 25, 2011 [9 favorites]
Her boyfriend does not consider it to be inappropriate and stated he would not change. There appears to be an incompatibility. Maybe it's time for her to say "I like you very much, but that behavior does not working for me".
posted by i_wear_boots at 5:57 PM on December 26, 2011
posted by i_wear_boots at 5:57 PM on December 26, 2011
Less nuclear followup to my earlier comment: I am a female with some very close male friends that I have known "forever". I love them like brothers I never had, have flirted with the idea of dating a few of them, and can be very physically free with them. Or rather, could. I can't anymore, because they have moved on with their lives and found women they want to put first in their lives. Those women aren't me, and I'm OK with that, because, in fact, we really are just [very close] friends. I'm OK with that, and part of how I expressed that was to BACK THE FUCK OFF. I want them to be in happy, stable relationships; I enjoy seeing them happy. I don't want me, and how I interact with them, to be an issue. And yes, it can be hard, but I want to be included in the new relationship -- as a trusted friend. Which for sure isn't going to happen if I am seen as someone who needs to be run off to protect the turf. So I had to give up some of the touchy-feely that was fun & enjoyable & meant a lot to me in the name of caring for my friend AND building to the future. His old friend isn't doing that, and that, not your friends' reaction to it, is half the problem.
Fast forward 10 years. I'm now in a committed relationship. And some of the men in my life my SO has learned to coexist with, and some he has not. The thing is, the relationships that do peacefully co-exist today do so because we (me and my friends) HAVE changed how we interact. My relationship may be far from perfect, but I care about how he feels enough to know that footrubs, however prized amongst my friends, are probably no longer within the bounds of propriety. And so, although I like to give them, even take pride in my skills, and am occasionally wheedled to hand them out, I do not spend time fondling the naked feet of men anymore. Even though it's not sex, and [probably] wouldn't have led to sex. Because I CARE how my S.O. feels and prioritize it over how my male friends feel about losing that perk.
And there we find the other half of your friend's problem. Your friend's SO needs to care enough about how she feels to make some kind of accommodation (even if he says he won't), rather than shutting her down. It doesn't require disposing of the friendship --old friendships are invaluable treasures, provided they aren't had at the expense of new treasures. But there needs to be some sign, preferrably through actions, that the new girlfriend's opinions are being taken on board.
Best of luck to your friend. She's not nuts to feel threatened by this type of behavior.
posted by Ys at 6:05 PM on December 27, 2011
Fast forward 10 years. I'm now in a committed relationship. And some of the men in my life my SO has learned to coexist with, and some he has not. The thing is, the relationships that do peacefully co-exist today do so because we (me and my friends) HAVE changed how we interact. My relationship may be far from perfect, but I care about how he feels enough to know that footrubs, however prized amongst my friends, are probably no longer within the bounds of propriety. And so, although I like to give them, even take pride in my skills, and am occasionally wheedled to hand them out, I do not spend time fondling the naked feet of men anymore. Even though it's not sex, and [probably] wouldn't have led to sex. Because I CARE how my S.O. feels and prioritize it over how my male friends feel about losing that perk.
And there we find the other half of your friend's problem. Your friend's SO needs to care enough about how she feels to make some kind of accommodation (even if he says he won't), rather than shutting her down. It doesn't require disposing of the friendship --old friendships are invaluable treasures, provided they aren't had at the expense of new treasures. But there needs to be some sign, preferrably through actions, that the new girlfriend's opinions are being taken on board.
Best of luck to your friend. She's not nuts to feel threatened by this type of behavior.
posted by Ys at 6:05 PM on December 27, 2011
I see both sides. Bottom line is, she doesn't feel like she can trust him. Trust is one of those ingredients a relationship needs to survive.
posted by manicure12 at 10:08 PM on December 29, 2011
posted by manicure12 at 10:08 PM on December 29, 2011
There's nothing wrong with asking him to refrain from certain behaviors (lap sitting, for one) with other women. Its not a huge sacrifice on his part, and if he refuses thats a sign that there may be more for her to be concerned about.
posted by myShanon at 9:39 PM on January 2, 2012
posted by myShanon at 9:39 PM on January 2, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by leahwrenn at 6:01 PM on December 24, 2011 [1 favorite]