of course when it rains, it pours.
December 23, 2011 7:05 AM Subscribe
I have a job, which I've held since March '11. And now I have two interviews. I'm not sure I'm ready to leave my current job, but one of the interviews is for a much more prestigious company. How do I play this?
In March 2011, after 6 months of unemployment, I finally landed a job. Relatively entry-level, had about 1 year of experience in my field when I got it. Overall, I've really enjoyed this job. It's a tiny company (3 people, including myself), so I have a lot of autonomy and get to work mostly independently, which I like a lot. I've definitely learned a lot, and my boss is a decent guy who seems to care at least a little bit about my professional development, and who seems to trust me with projects. This also allows me to manage my hours and I don't have to put in a lot of overtime to get things done. I work between 40 and 50 hours a week.
The cons of the position are that the projects are repetitive - they're all the same type. As a relatively junior member of this profession (for which I have to take comprehensive exams to get licensed), this is kind of limiting. I'm only being exposed to a very narrow niche, and it's a niche I don't want to get stuck in. The other problem is that almost everyone we work with speaks a language other than English, which makes it basically impossible for me to deal with the consultants, leaving me out of the loop sometimes. Also I would like to be paid more, since I've got pretty bottom of the barrel wages right now, and boy is it awkward negotiating a raise at a one-man shop.
Because I've been burned in the past (hello, layoffs), I always follow the job posting in my area via RSS. In the back of my mind, I've known that I will need to move on from my current job to get more experience. But I imagined that would be after 18-24 months, not 9. A couple weeks ago a position came up that was such a perfect fit for me that I couldn't pass it up, and applied on a whim. Two days later another position at a very prestigious local company came up, and I applied to that too, since I had already updated all my materials for the first company.
Now they both want me to come in for interviews. I KNOW. Great problem to have, right? I'm totally thrilled that the prestigious company is interested - I've been applying to jobs there since 2009 with no luck until now. The other place I'm more unsure of, but the job sounded like such a good fit.
So the problems that I'm having:
1 - how do I explain not one but TWO appointments in one week? The prestigious interview is already scheduled during the day. I'm trying to schedule the other one for the early morning or evening, but I'm not sure if they're going to go for it. Added issues: both interviews will be the first week of Jan, immediately after I return from a vacation. I can't take more vacation days (don't have any) and it seems shady to immediately pull a sick day... maybe? I was thinking of saying that I have a "dentist" appointment for the interview that's already scheduled...
2 - Bird in hand vs bird in the bush. Obviously neither of these interviews is a sure thing. But it's hard to know if making the leap right now is a good idea. I mostly LIKE my job right now, which isn't something to let go of lightly. I'm afraid I might end up jumping ship into a place with a terrible workplace culture or that expects 80 hour weeks, etc. I will try and suss this out a bit in the interviews, but does anyone have any tips of how to ask revealing questions so I can find out what I might be getting myself into?
3- I look like a job hopper. Because of the recession, this current 9 months is the longest I've been employed at any one place over the last 2.5 years. But it's not because I jump ship regularly - I've worked on a per-project basis and was laid off once. None of the job-ending was just voluntary. I don't think this is a really compelling reason to not make the leap now (since clearly these companies are interested in me), but it does seem like whatever I choose has to really count next time. I need to be in it for at least 2 years - so I don't want to throw away a pretty good job that's a bit limiting for a job that could end up making me miserable.
4- If, amazingly, I am offered one of these jobs, what do I say to my current employer? I honestly don't think I could pass up an offer from the prestigious place - I think working there would give my resume a long-term boost and (more importantly) I'm really into what they do and want to work at a higher level than I have been. But since my current office is so small, I'd be really leaving them in the lurch. I'm running four projects concurrently right now and there's no one else to pick them up. Also we have group health insurance that requires three people minimum, so if I leave they're pretty screwed. If I get an offer, how do I deal with all of this?
Wow, so that was more of a wall of text than I thought it would be, but hopefully you can see my dilemma here. Older, more experienced Mefites, what do I do here?
[and the shorter version for the tl,dr's among you] How do I play off my scheduling issues to my current boss? How do I suss out the work culture of the new places without seeming like someone who's only interested in vacations? If (knock wood) I am offered one of these jobs, how do I talk to my current employer about it, given that I am an integral part of the business and they would be really screwed without me?
(and, of course, I'm anon because this is about work).
In March 2011, after 6 months of unemployment, I finally landed a job. Relatively entry-level, had about 1 year of experience in my field when I got it. Overall, I've really enjoyed this job. It's a tiny company (3 people, including myself), so I have a lot of autonomy and get to work mostly independently, which I like a lot. I've definitely learned a lot, and my boss is a decent guy who seems to care at least a little bit about my professional development, and who seems to trust me with projects. This also allows me to manage my hours and I don't have to put in a lot of overtime to get things done. I work between 40 and 50 hours a week.
The cons of the position are that the projects are repetitive - they're all the same type. As a relatively junior member of this profession (for which I have to take comprehensive exams to get licensed), this is kind of limiting. I'm only being exposed to a very narrow niche, and it's a niche I don't want to get stuck in. The other problem is that almost everyone we work with speaks a language other than English, which makes it basically impossible for me to deal with the consultants, leaving me out of the loop sometimes. Also I would like to be paid more, since I've got pretty bottom of the barrel wages right now, and boy is it awkward negotiating a raise at a one-man shop.
Because I've been burned in the past (hello, layoffs), I always follow the job posting in my area via RSS. In the back of my mind, I've known that I will need to move on from my current job to get more experience. But I imagined that would be after 18-24 months, not 9. A couple weeks ago a position came up that was such a perfect fit for me that I couldn't pass it up, and applied on a whim. Two days later another position at a very prestigious local company came up, and I applied to that too, since I had already updated all my materials for the first company.
Now they both want me to come in for interviews. I KNOW. Great problem to have, right? I'm totally thrilled that the prestigious company is interested - I've been applying to jobs there since 2009 with no luck until now. The other place I'm more unsure of, but the job sounded like such a good fit.
So the problems that I'm having:
1 - how do I explain not one but TWO appointments in one week? The prestigious interview is already scheduled during the day. I'm trying to schedule the other one for the early morning or evening, but I'm not sure if they're going to go for it. Added issues: both interviews will be the first week of Jan, immediately after I return from a vacation. I can't take more vacation days (don't have any) and it seems shady to immediately pull a sick day... maybe? I was thinking of saying that I have a "dentist" appointment for the interview that's already scheduled...
2 - Bird in hand vs bird in the bush. Obviously neither of these interviews is a sure thing. But it's hard to know if making the leap right now is a good idea. I mostly LIKE my job right now, which isn't something to let go of lightly. I'm afraid I might end up jumping ship into a place with a terrible workplace culture or that expects 80 hour weeks, etc. I will try and suss this out a bit in the interviews, but does anyone have any tips of how to ask revealing questions so I can find out what I might be getting myself into?
3- I look like a job hopper. Because of the recession, this current 9 months is the longest I've been employed at any one place over the last 2.5 years. But it's not because I jump ship regularly - I've worked on a per-project basis and was laid off once. None of the job-ending was just voluntary. I don't think this is a really compelling reason to not make the leap now (since clearly these companies are interested in me), but it does seem like whatever I choose has to really count next time. I need to be in it for at least 2 years - so I don't want to throw away a pretty good job that's a bit limiting for a job that could end up making me miserable.
4- If, amazingly, I am offered one of these jobs, what do I say to my current employer? I honestly don't think I could pass up an offer from the prestigious place - I think working there would give my resume a long-term boost and (more importantly) I'm really into what they do and want to work at a higher level than I have been. But since my current office is so small, I'd be really leaving them in the lurch. I'm running four projects concurrently right now and there's no one else to pick them up. Also we have group health insurance that requires three people minimum, so if I leave they're pretty screwed. If I get an offer, how do I deal with all of this?
Wow, so that was more of a wall of text than I thought it would be, but hopefully you can see my dilemma here. Older, more experienced Mefites, what do I do here?
[and the shorter version for the tl,dr's among you] How do I play off my scheduling issues to my current boss? How do I suss out the work culture of the new places without seeming like someone who's only interested in vacations? If (knock wood) I am offered one of these jobs, how do I talk to my current employer about it, given that I am an integral part of the business and they would be really screwed without me?
(and, of course, I'm anon because this is about work).
I'm mainly going to take a stab at Q2:Does anyone have any tips of how to ask revealing questions so I can find out what I might be getting myself into?
As you can probably guess, often the person hiring or the HR people will cast the job in the best possible light.
To break through some of this at the last place that I worked at, I asked a series of questions that most people are concerned about at a workplace (i.e. Do you promote from within? Hire management from outside? If from within, then what set of criteria do you use and how is this eveluated). To be honest, I never cared about this sort of stuff...but it is to gather data for later. Ask a similar set of questions to each person you see- Senior VP,President, whatever.
Before I ever accepted a job,I also requested to speak to a colleague who had a similar position or the same job title.Ask the same questions and feed them a line or two that you have already heard. For example, if the management pple told you they hire from within, state
So I heard that you hire from within here...how long does it normally take?etc.Even someone very happy with the job and company will show their true feelings if you hit on something and they will be surprised to hear the statements given by management.
I never intended to be in a workplace for "years", but I wanted to have a good idea of the positives/negatives of a workplace and an honest presentation/assessment...this was the best technique that worked for me.
In regards to leaving your current company in the lurch, if you really like them (as in they treat you well,etc., not just guilt), try to negotiate for a later start date. A month.Then you can wrap up projects, help with the transition,give them time to find someone,etc.
posted by Wolfster at 7:30 AM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
As you can probably guess, often the person hiring or the HR people will cast the job in the best possible light.
To break through some of this at the last place that I worked at, I asked a series of questions that most people are concerned about at a workplace (i.e. Do you promote from within? Hire management from outside? If from within, then what set of criteria do you use and how is this eveluated). To be honest, I never cared about this sort of stuff...but it is to gather data for later. Ask a similar set of questions to each person you see- Senior VP,President, whatever.
Before I ever accepted a job,I also requested to speak to a colleague who had a similar position or the same job title.Ask the same questions and feed them a line or two that you have already heard. For example, if the management pple told you they hire from within, state
So I heard that you hire from within here...how long does it normally take?etc.Even someone very happy with the job and company will show their true feelings if you hit on something and they will be surprised to hear the statements given by management.
I never intended to be in a workplace for "years", but I wanted to have a good idea of the positives/negatives of a workplace and an honest presentation/assessment...this was the best technique that worked for me.
In regards to leaving your current company in the lurch, if you really like them (as in they treat you well,etc., not just guilt), try to negotiate for a later start date. A month.Then you can wrap up projects, help with the transition,give them time to find someone,etc.
posted by Wolfster at 7:30 AM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
Firstly, congrats on getting two interviews!
Secondly, the generally supportive and helpful advice I received here and from family and friends over the past few days was pretty universal - be honest about what's happening. It might be different / more difficult if you're working in a place where the job culture is different to the one you're most familiar with, but I guess you've probably got a good handle on the way things work where you are. In the current climate, I suspect most employers would understand someone wanting to move to gain more experience that can be translated into better earning power. In fact, in my experience, all my employers have understood the moves I have wanted to make for career development and financial reward and have been supportive. And 9 months nowadays is not such a small amount of time to be in one place, given the vicissitudes of the current employment market.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 7:46 AM on December 23, 2011
Secondly, the generally supportive and helpful advice I received here and from family and friends over the past few days was pretty universal - be honest about what's happening. It might be different / more difficult if you're working in a place where the job culture is different to the one you're most familiar with, but I guess you've probably got a good handle on the way things work where you are. In the current climate, I suspect most employers would understand someone wanting to move to gain more experience that can be translated into better earning power. In fact, in my experience, all my employers have understood the moves I have wanted to make for career development and financial reward and have been supportive. And 9 months nowadays is not such a small amount of time to be in one place, given the vicissitudes of the current employment market.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 7:46 AM on December 23, 2011
My personal rule is don't stay at a job for under 18 months (which you can round up to 2 years on a resume). But interview freely, it's good practice and you've got nothing to lose.
posted by miyabo at 7:59 AM on December 23, 2011
posted by miyabo at 7:59 AM on December 23, 2011
If you should get an offer and accept, don't feel bad about leaving your current job, no matter how "integral" you might be. Speaking generally, the company wouldn't hesitate to cut you loose if it would benefit them in a major way; you shouldn't punish yourself about being able to do the same.
As far as your job frequency, simply make it clear that you were working on a project basis; any employer worth anything understands how that works.
posted by chrisfromthelc at 8:34 AM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
As far as your job frequency, simply make it clear that you were working on a project basis; any employer worth anything understands how that works.
posted by chrisfromthelc at 8:34 AM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
I just accepted a new job and will be starting there at the end of January. I had much the same issues as you do (even interviewed at two places beforehand), and handled them as such: when you tell people you have an appointment, that's all you need to tell them. If they ask, say its personal. For all they know, you're going to the proctologist or meeting with a divorce lawyer or attending a funeral. Even if you have two - many doctor's visits require follow ups, and these are often the ones you least want to discuss.
The "bird in the hand" thing is *always* true when switching jobs. If you can't face it, you'll be stuck in the same job for the rest of your life. You should ask questions at your interview to try and answer these specific questions, and interact with your interviewers in such a way as to try and determine what it's like to work there. I had the luck to get an afternoon interview at one place, and ended up staying later than most of the employees. It was a bit of a relief to see the office emptying out at around 6:00-6:30. This is also one of these places that offers "unlimited vacation". I wanted to know what that really equates to, so i just asked the recruiter, she answered as best she could. Believe me though, I know how you feel here, this is the first time I'm doing this with a wife, child, and mortgage, so I feel like I've got a lot on the line.
You already look like a job hopper to the people who've decided to interview you. They've seen your resume, and they know you'd leave your current job in the near future to take one with them. Obviously they are not too put off by this or they wouldn't have agreed to interview you. I try to avoid this as much as anyone, and have been at my current employer for almost five years, but I still would have taken this job if all other things were equal except that my time here wasn't as long.
If you are offered and decide to take one of these other jobs, then you resign gracefully. It happens all the time. "I've had a good time working here, but I've decided to pursue another opportunity elsewhere, my last day will be in two weeks." Any employer has dealt with this before and will not be offended. you have only been there nine months and do not have "founder" in your title, you're probably not really that integral, and the business will go on the same way it did before you were there. Maybe they'll hire another person to replace you. It doesn't really matter.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:10 AM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
The "bird in the hand" thing is *always* true when switching jobs. If you can't face it, you'll be stuck in the same job for the rest of your life. You should ask questions at your interview to try and answer these specific questions, and interact with your interviewers in such a way as to try and determine what it's like to work there. I had the luck to get an afternoon interview at one place, and ended up staying later than most of the employees. It was a bit of a relief to see the office emptying out at around 6:00-6:30. This is also one of these places that offers "unlimited vacation". I wanted to know what that really equates to, so i just asked the recruiter, she answered as best she could. Believe me though, I know how you feel here, this is the first time I'm doing this with a wife, child, and mortgage, so I feel like I've got a lot on the line.
You already look like a job hopper to the people who've decided to interview you. They've seen your resume, and they know you'd leave your current job in the near future to take one with them. Obviously they are not too put off by this or they wouldn't have agreed to interview you. I try to avoid this as much as anyone, and have been at my current employer for almost five years, but I still would have taken this job if all other things were equal except that my time here wasn't as long.
If you are offered and decide to take one of these other jobs, then you resign gracefully. It happens all the time. "I've had a good time working here, but I've decided to pursue another opportunity elsewhere, my last day will be in two weeks." Any employer has dealt with this before and will not be offended. you have only been there nine months and do not have "founder" in your title, you're probably not really that integral, and the business will go on the same way it did before you were there. Maybe they'll hire another person to replace you. It doesn't really matter.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:10 AM on December 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
how do I explain not one but TWO appointments in one week?
You don't. You say you have an "appointment." If they press, look sheepish and say you'd rather not talk about it. Don't get defensive, just keep it private. They don't know whether you have an interview, are meeting a friend/colleague for coffee, or have an appointment about an embarrassing condition of the genitals that they don't want to hear the details of and that requires multiple appointments. Don't Lie.
does anyone have any tips of how to ask revealing questions so I can find out what I might be getting myself into?
1) Talk to your potential coworkers, and 2) don't be afraid to ask a question or two. First, hopefully the companies know how to interview and have at least 1 peer interview for your possible coworkers to evaluate you and for you to learn about the job in more detail. You can ask for such an opportunity. Second, you can ask "what kind of hours does the company keep?" without sounding like a slacker. Ask it only once, or maybe twice if it's to different people. No matter what they say, act like it's what you wanted to hear - that way they won't brand you as a slacker. Do they say "always out by 5?" Then say "good, I think people get a lot more done when they just focus on getting work done and have time for rest." Do they say "70 hour weeks are the norm because we have so many important projects?" Smile and say "good, I like fast-paced environments." You can genuinely hold both beliefs and say either without lying: you think fast-paced is good, but you also think rest is important. This is nearly small-talk, you can always reject the job offer if you don't like the answer.
3- I look like a job hopper.
Job hopper is a concept made up by baby boomers and their parents. It doesn't really hold sway anymore unless you have 3 straight years of leaving jobs every 6-9 months. Sure, if you leave every job you take and none of your former bosses or coworkers are willing to give you a recommendation, that's bad. But if you accept a better position to learn more instead of stagnating, that's a good thing. You can use it as evidence that you're flexible and like to take on new things, which are positives when you apply for jobs in the future. Just do your best to be professional and keep people at your old job happy so they'll vouch for you. If your boss won't be a reference after you leave, maybe a coworker will.
4- If, amazingly, I am offered one of these jobs, what do I say to my current employer?
Be honest and professional: you really like your boss and the company, but you got another job offer (presumably with better pay) that will allow you to take on a bigger variety of tasks and gain new experience. Thank him for the time that he employed you, as you learned a lot. If he's reasonable, he'll accept the praise, understand that employees leave to pursue other ventures all the time, and wish you luck. If he's reasonable and you are as indispensable as you think, he'll come back with a counter-offer of more money and more interesting assignments, and it had better be good. If he's unreasonable and takes this personally, then he's a crappy boss and you're lucky you're leaving before he can do any real damage to you. As for the health insurance, well they can probably hire someone quickly in this market.
tl;dr - go to the interviews. Get job and salary offers in writing. Then weigh them against your current position. If times were tough for your company, your boss would fire you. Now that times are good for you, you have no obligation to stick around and stagnate.
posted by Tehhund at 9:37 AM on December 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
You don't. You say you have an "appointment." If they press, look sheepish and say you'd rather not talk about it. Don't get defensive, just keep it private. They don't know whether you have an interview, are meeting a friend/colleague for coffee, or have an appointment about an embarrassing condition of the genitals that they don't want to hear the details of and that requires multiple appointments. Don't Lie.
does anyone have any tips of how to ask revealing questions so I can find out what I might be getting myself into?
1) Talk to your potential coworkers, and 2) don't be afraid to ask a question or two. First, hopefully the companies know how to interview and have at least 1 peer interview for your possible coworkers to evaluate you and for you to learn about the job in more detail. You can ask for such an opportunity. Second, you can ask "what kind of hours does the company keep?" without sounding like a slacker. Ask it only once, or maybe twice if it's to different people. No matter what they say, act like it's what you wanted to hear - that way they won't brand you as a slacker. Do they say "always out by 5?" Then say "good, I think people get a lot more done when they just focus on getting work done and have time for rest." Do they say "70 hour weeks are the norm because we have so many important projects?" Smile and say "good, I like fast-paced environments." You can genuinely hold both beliefs and say either without lying: you think fast-paced is good, but you also think rest is important. This is nearly small-talk, you can always reject the job offer if you don't like the answer.
3- I look like a job hopper.
Job hopper is a concept made up by baby boomers and their parents. It doesn't really hold sway anymore unless you have 3 straight years of leaving jobs every 6-9 months. Sure, if you leave every job you take and none of your former bosses or coworkers are willing to give you a recommendation, that's bad. But if you accept a better position to learn more instead of stagnating, that's a good thing. You can use it as evidence that you're flexible and like to take on new things, which are positives when you apply for jobs in the future. Just do your best to be professional and keep people at your old job happy so they'll vouch for you. If your boss won't be a reference after you leave, maybe a coworker will.
4- If, amazingly, I am offered one of these jobs, what do I say to my current employer?
Be honest and professional: you really like your boss and the company, but you got another job offer (presumably with better pay) that will allow you to take on a bigger variety of tasks and gain new experience. Thank him for the time that he employed you, as you learned a lot. If he's reasonable, he'll accept the praise, understand that employees leave to pursue other ventures all the time, and wish you luck. If he's reasonable and you are as indispensable as you think, he'll come back with a counter-offer of more money and more interesting assignments, and it had better be good. If he's unreasonable and takes this personally, then he's a crappy boss and you're lucky you're leaving before he can do any real damage to you. As for the health insurance, well they can probably hire someone quickly in this market.
tl;dr - go to the interviews. Get job and salary offers in writing. Then weigh them against your current position. If times were tough for your company, your boss would fire you. Now that times are good for you, you have no obligation to stick around and stagnate.
posted by Tehhund at 9:37 AM on December 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
in addition to all the fantastic advice tylerkaraszewski just gave, I would like to point out that:
The cons of the position are...
...very likely WELL KNOWN and acknowledged by your current management, and if they aren't, well then, they should be. Anyone hiring entry level employees at low pay is going to just have to accept that there maybe a bit of a high turnaround feature tied to that position as well.
If they don't, you really kind of don't want to work for them anyhow. Which means, yes don't be a dick about giving notice, but don't kid yourself that it's going to be the complete end of the world for them. I'll be willing to bet they can snag another junior entry level peon type person for that same job within a week. That's another bonus to low paying entry level jobs; there's currently kind of a line out the door for them :/
posted by lonefrontranger at 9:41 AM on December 23, 2011
The cons of the position are...
...very likely WELL KNOWN and acknowledged by your current management, and if they aren't, well then, they should be. Anyone hiring entry level employees at low pay is going to just have to accept that there maybe a bit of a high turnaround feature tied to that position as well.
If they don't, you really kind of don't want to work for them anyhow. Which means, yes don't be a dick about giving notice, but don't kid yourself that it's going to be the complete end of the world for them. I'll be willing to bet they can snag another junior entry level peon type person for that same job within a week. That's another bonus to low paying entry level jobs; there's currently kind of a line out the door for them :/
posted by lonefrontranger at 9:41 AM on December 23, 2011
I echo the sentiment above of your current employer need not know what you do with your time off, unless of course you're job is of a nature where your activities outside of work could jeopardize security clearances.... It's not necessary for your employment and it's not right for them to ask. All you need to say is "I have an appointment, and here are the hours I will be at work. I'll make up the time by staying late"
Outside of all that my one worry for you would be that you jump ship and find yourself at a company, or in a job, you like even less and thus want to jump ship again. Most people pay attention to time at jobs, and if it appears you're just jumping around to salary jump you'll be left for some other employer to laughably pick up, and thus hate your current job even more. If your current job is really not making you happy that's one thing, but I would say 12 months you should be in a position, minimum.
posted by zombieApoc at 11:23 AM on December 23, 2011
Outside of all that my one worry for you would be that you jump ship and find yourself at a company, or in a job, you like even less and thus want to jump ship again. Most people pay attention to time at jobs, and if it appears you're just jumping around to salary jump you'll be left for some other employer to laughably pick up, and thus hate your current job even more. If your current job is really not making you happy that's one thing, but I would say 12 months you should be in a position, minimum.
posted by zombieApoc at 11:23 AM on December 23, 2011
Taking unnecessary sick days in January is normal and expected.
posted by Phssthpok at 10:23 PM on December 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Phssthpok at 10:23 PM on December 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Houstonian at 7:22 AM on December 23, 2011 [1 favorite]