Help me figure this (polyamory-related ethical question) out
December 16, 2011 9:29 AM Subscribe
This question is about polyamorous ethics. It's part of a larger question about my relationship with my long term partner and considers the ethics of the third party.
What I'd like a read on or resources to help think about: the ethics of expressing interest in someone who is already in a partnered, monogamous context.
The situation is that I had been proceeding with my partner on the assumption and the public narrative of my relationship with my partner as a monogamous one. There exist certain conditions where that may be renegotiated (towards polyamory) but those conditions are not fulfilled.
At a conference, my sweetie got emotionally (not physically) intimate with someone who was a surprise for her and she and I are now working out the ramifications of that new intimacy. (Including, despite my strong reservations about it, whether or not we should be considering opening up our relationship to some form of polyamory or non-monogamy.)
I should note here that I have had mixed experiences with polyamory in the past, both with this partner and also with other partners. I tend toward worried anxiety and jealousy both of which feed off of each other and that can interfere mightily with making polyamory a healthy relationship choice for me.
My questions for the AskMe poly advice-giving community are: what are the ethics and ethical systems that can be said to apply to that third party? Is the friction that my partner and I are dealing with really just for her and me to work out, or does that third party person also share some of the responsibility? Are there books, FAQS or guides that are specifically about these kind of ethics and philosophy that might be helpful to me in working this out?
My instinct has been to keep her (the third party) out of my sphere of consideration and work only on the issues now arisen for myself and my partner, but I have a nagging feeling that I should also perhaps have a talk with the third party and figure out what's going with that.
To be honest, it feels rude that she expressed interest to someone who is publicly known to be in a monogamous relationship and it feels like the third party has some responsibility to bear for the crisis my relation is in, but I don't know whether anyone other than I would consider it appropriate to try to reach out and process that part out with the third party.
For what it's worth, I don't intend to take action without thinking about it and analyzing it and discussing it with my partner. I am also actively in therapy with a good therapist who has a doctorate in social work and specializes in relationship counselling, and my partner and I are considering going into couples therapy together.
The situation is that I had been proceeding with my partner on the assumption and the public narrative of my relationship with my partner as a monogamous one. There exist certain conditions where that may be renegotiated (towards polyamory) but those conditions are not fulfilled.
At a conference, my sweetie got emotionally (not physically) intimate with someone who was a surprise for her and she and I are now working out the ramifications of that new intimacy. (Including, despite my strong reservations about it, whether or not we should be considering opening up our relationship to some form of polyamory or non-monogamy.)
I should note here that I have had mixed experiences with polyamory in the past, both with this partner and also with other partners. I tend toward worried anxiety and jealousy both of which feed off of each other and that can interfere mightily with making polyamory a healthy relationship choice for me.
My questions for the AskMe poly advice-giving community are: what are the ethics and ethical systems that can be said to apply to that third party? Is the friction that my partner and I are dealing with really just for her and me to work out, or does that third party person also share some of the responsibility? Are there books, FAQS or guides that are specifically about these kind of ethics and philosophy that might be helpful to me in working this out?
My instinct has been to keep her (the third party) out of my sphere of consideration and work only on the issues now arisen for myself and my partner, but I have a nagging feeling that I should also perhaps have a talk with the third party and figure out what's going with that.
To be honest, it feels rude that she expressed interest to someone who is publicly known to be in a monogamous relationship and it feels like the third party has some responsibility to bear for the crisis my relation is in, but I don't know whether anyone other than I would consider it appropriate to try to reach out and process that part out with the third party.
For what it's worth, I don't intend to take action without thinking about it and analyzing it and discussing it with my partner. I am also actively in therapy with a good therapist who has a doctorate in social work and specializes in relationship counselling, and my partner and I are considering going into couples therapy together.
It sounds like this isn't about polyamory, it's about cheating. I'm completely in favor of mutually-agreed upon polyamorous relationships, but it is crap for your partner to do the (emotional) cheating first, and then come to you and say "hey, maybe we should be polyamorous". That discussion has to happen before any action is taken, otherwise she is cheating, plain and simple.
A third party does not necessarily have any obligation to you. Trying to get someone to cheat on their partner is shitty, sure, but they don't really owe you anything, and shouldn't be involved in how you and your partner work out your relationship. Frankly, I think it is a bad idea to involve this person in any polyamorous relationships going forward. This is not a person who your partner sought ought after you decided polyamorous, this is the person your partner had an emotional affair with and now is trying to get retroactive permission for. In fact, it doesn't even sound like it hadn't been brought up so your partner wasn't sure, it sounds like you had explicitly said in the past that you were in a monogamous relationship, and she ignored that and did it anyway (it was her responsibility to disengage from whatever happened on the trip, not the third party's). If you two make the decision that you are ready to be polyamorous, I feel strongly that that third party should be off-limits no matter what.
That said, you are under no obligation to say yes to a polyamorous relationship if that's not for you. I am completely supportive of people for whom that's the right thing, but I also know it isn't the right thing for me, and I know that that's OK. You don't have to do it just because you support it as an idea. Polyamory works when all parties are happy with the arrangement, but not otherwise.
posted by brainmouse at 9:44 AM on December 16, 2011 [30 favorites]
A third party does not necessarily have any obligation to you. Trying to get someone to cheat on their partner is shitty, sure, but they don't really owe you anything, and shouldn't be involved in how you and your partner work out your relationship. Frankly, I think it is a bad idea to involve this person in any polyamorous relationships going forward. This is not a person who your partner sought ought after you decided polyamorous, this is the person your partner had an emotional affair with and now is trying to get retroactive permission for. In fact, it doesn't even sound like it hadn't been brought up so your partner wasn't sure, it sounds like you had explicitly said in the past that you were in a monogamous relationship, and she ignored that and did it anyway (it was her responsibility to disengage from whatever happened on the trip, not the third party's). If you two make the decision that you are ready to be polyamorous, I feel strongly that that third party should be off-limits no matter what.
That said, you are under no obligation to say yes to a polyamorous relationship if that's not for you. I am completely supportive of people for whom that's the right thing, but I also know it isn't the right thing for me, and I know that that's OK. You don't have to do it just because you support it as an idea. Polyamory works when all parties are happy with the arrangement, but not otherwise.
posted by brainmouse at 9:44 AM on December 16, 2011 [30 favorites]
At a conference, my sweetie got emotionally (not physically) intimate with someone
This happened before you had worked out the question of polyamory with your partner. So your partner crossed a line there.
it feels like the third party has some responsibility to bear for the crisis my relation is in
Your partner started something with a very specific someone else before you were on board with even a theoretical someone else. This is between you and your partner. If you are still monogamous, as your "assumption and public narrative" state, then your partner has a responsibility to you and to the relationship to reply to interested third parties with something along the lines of "thank you but my sweetie and I are monogamous." It's not the third party's fault that your partner didn't do that.
...my partner and I are considering going into couples therapy together.
That is probably a good idea.
posted by headnsouth at 9:45 AM on December 16, 2011 [11 favorites]
This happened before you had worked out the question of polyamory with your partner. So your partner crossed a line there.
it feels like the third party has some responsibility to bear for the crisis my relation is in
Your partner started something with a very specific someone else before you were on board with even a theoretical someone else. This is between you and your partner. If you are still monogamous, as your "assumption and public narrative" state, then your partner has a responsibility to you and to the relationship to reply to interested third parties with something along the lines of "thank you but my sweetie and I are monogamous." It's not the third party's fault that your partner didn't do that.
...my partner and I are considering going into couples therapy together.
That is probably a good idea.
posted by headnsouth at 9:45 AM on December 16, 2011 [11 favorites]
I don't have ethical considerations for you but I have practical ones.
1. If you work out the whole thing without reference to the third party (hereafter Pat), you run the risk of Pat having no truck with your solution. For example, if you decided that a relationship under X, Y and Z parameters would be acceptable, Pat may freak out entirely at the idea of an openly poly relationship and run a mile in the opposite direction, making your long discussions rather a waste of time.
2. If you don't involve yourself with Pat and a relationship begins, you run the risk that Pat is successfully kidding herself that they are not poly but cheating, and Pat proceeds to undermine your relationship in the hope of capsizing it, or to run roughshod through any agreements that are in place because in Pat's view they are already cheating and who cares.
3. If you don't have an ongoing channel directly to Pat, all relationship negotiations ("Please don't let Pat give you massages, that's OUR special thing") are going to have to go through your partner, and that may result in a serious case of Chinese Whispers.
4. If you do talk to Pat, you run the risk that you personally don't particularly like Pat, and are then obliged to disentangle your dislike from your jealousy and etc.
posted by emilyw at 9:49 AM on December 16, 2011
1. If you work out the whole thing without reference to the third party (hereafter Pat), you run the risk of Pat having no truck with your solution. For example, if you decided that a relationship under X, Y and Z parameters would be acceptable, Pat may freak out entirely at the idea of an openly poly relationship and run a mile in the opposite direction, making your long discussions rather a waste of time.
2. If you don't involve yourself with Pat and a relationship begins, you run the risk that Pat is successfully kidding herself that they are not poly but cheating, and Pat proceeds to undermine your relationship in the hope of capsizing it, or to run roughshod through any agreements that are in place because in Pat's view they are already cheating and who cares.
3. If you don't have an ongoing channel directly to Pat, all relationship negotiations ("Please don't let Pat give you massages, that's OUR special thing") are going to have to go through your partner, and that may result in a serious case of Chinese Whispers.
4. If you do talk to Pat, you run the risk that you personally don't particularly like Pat, and are then obliged to disentangle your dislike from your jealousy and etc.
posted by emilyw at 9:49 AM on December 16, 2011
nthing all above comments that this is an issue of your partner disrespecting an assumed relationship arrangement and the public narrative of such. I think it's between you and this partner to work out the ramifications. Any interaction with the third party feels like it is solidly on the shoulders of your partner to bear, since they were complicit in the boundary-crossing and you were not.
However, I think the biggest question that you'll need to work out is "why the discrepancy between assumptions/public narrative and my partner's apparent desires and real life actions?" Seems like you have different underlying needs and desires that are not being discussed. Also, agreeing with brainmouse that this 3rd party is not really worthy of inclusion in future relationship (reeks drama) with your partner, and by extension, you.
posted by Betty's Table at 9:54 AM on December 16, 2011
However, I think the biggest question that you'll need to work out is "why the discrepancy between assumptions/public narrative and my partner's apparent desires and real life actions?" Seems like you have different underlying needs and desires that are not being discussed. Also, agreeing with brainmouse that this 3rd party is not really worthy of inclusion in future relationship (reeks drama) with your partner, and by extension, you.
posted by Betty's Table at 9:54 AM on December 16, 2011
This third party made no promises or vows to you. They have no responsibility to you or your relationship.
Your partner broke the agreement of monogamy. That's something you deal with only with them. Can you trust her? You don't seem like you want anything to do with polyamory as it's not something that works for you. This is OKAY. You are fine to tell your partner that you don't want to be a part of it if you do. Then she has to make the choice on what is more important to her, her relationship with you or her relationship with the new person. Or you could decide that trust was broken and end things.
posted by inturnaround at 9:57 AM on December 16, 2011 [5 favorites]
Your partner broke the agreement of monogamy. That's something you deal with only with them. Can you trust her? You don't seem like you want anything to do with polyamory as it's not something that works for you. This is OKAY. You are fine to tell your partner that you don't want to be a part of it if you do. Then she has to make the choice on what is more important to her, her relationship with you or her relationship with the new person. Or you could decide that trust was broken and end things.
posted by inturnaround at 9:57 AM on December 16, 2011 [5 favorites]
re @emilyw's 3rd point: this is indeed true, from a practical perspective, and if the "relationship" continues. But from my experience being a 3rd party/a secondary partner to one half of a pre-existing consensually non-monogamous relationship, it's still important for the base couple to work out all their stuff prior to any serious communications between the 3rd party and the base couple. If the 3rd party has any sense of integrity, they might have the decency to approach the OP on their own, and ask to talk about the arrangement. But that seems a far flung hope in this situation.
posted by Betty's Table at 9:59 AM on December 16, 2011
posted by Betty's Table at 9:59 AM on December 16, 2011
Yeah, I agree that it seems to be all on you and (more so) your partner here. He/she should have consulted you before engaging in the behavior that upset you.
I'm no poly expert, but my understanding is that communication between you and your partner before anything happens is absolutely vital, and obviously that didn't happen in this instance.
Hopefully this can be resolved with a good discussion between the two of you about your relationship expectations and that will prevent something like your current situation from happening again. Best of luck.
posted by Fister Roboto at 10:00 AM on December 16, 2011
I'm no poly expert, but my understanding is that communication between you and your partner before anything happens is absolutely vital, and obviously that didn't happen in this instance.
Hopefully this can be resolved with a good discussion between the two of you about your relationship expectations and that will prevent something like your current situation from happening again. Best of luck.
posted by Fister Roboto at 10:00 AM on December 16, 2011
If you feel like you are in a crisis, then that need to be 100% dealt with and resolved before anything further happens with this other person.
That INCLUDES you talking to her (3rd party) about anything.
Polyamory may not be a comfortable/safe/enjoyable situation for you. That's okay, that's where you are right now. Your partner needs to honor that first and foremost, and accept that by committing to this primary relationship, she honors its limitations as well as its rewards.
Don't let yourself get pulled into anything you're not ready for, just because you want to be the kind of person who is okay with this, or because you are afraid of disappointing your partner. She will be more disappointed in the long run if you bring another person into your relationship and THEN panic and revolt.
Sometimes connections that arise spontaneously or organically wind up being unable to withstand the slow pacing or scrutiny required to make them compatible with a poly situation. That is the cost of doing business, and that's something else your partner needs to understand. You will not be rushed. Yes, it's hard, and frustrating, for the infatuated parties. Managing that urgency is part of the hard work that your partner must do, and is perhaps one of the secrets to helping you manage your jealousy and anxiety.
Memail me if you ever want to discuss further.
posted by hermitosis at 10:03 AM on December 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
That INCLUDES you talking to her (3rd party) about anything.
Polyamory may not be a comfortable/safe/enjoyable situation for you. That's okay, that's where you are right now. Your partner needs to honor that first and foremost, and accept that by committing to this primary relationship, she honors its limitations as well as its rewards.
Don't let yourself get pulled into anything you're not ready for, just because you want to be the kind of person who is okay with this, or because you are afraid of disappointing your partner. She will be more disappointed in the long run if you bring another person into your relationship and THEN panic and revolt.
Sometimes connections that arise spontaneously or organically wind up being unable to withstand the slow pacing or scrutiny required to make them compatible with a poly situation. That is the cost of doing business, and that's something else your partner needs to understand. You will not be rushed. Yes, it's hard, and frustrating, for the infatuated parties. Managing that urgency is part of the hard work that your partner must do, and is perhaps one of the secrets to helping you manage your jealousy and anxiety.
Memail me if you ever want to discuss further.
posted by hermitosis at 10:03 AM on December 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm having trouble figuring out what "emotionally intimate" means in this case. Do you mean they discovered that they got along really well and talked about personal stuff? Or did they discover they had the hots for one another and flirted a bunch?
Because the former... well, your relationship is your relationship, but I have a couple of friendships like that with married women, and it would never occur to me to worry about whether they were monogamous or not because that's just how friendships work sometimes. It has nothing to do with sex or relationships, even if I am attracted to them in addition to the friendship or if I think we could actually make a successful couple because we're so compatible. Until we go down the sex route, it's not a romantic relationship.
If it's the latter, then calling in "emotional intimacy" is muddying the waters. That's not emotional, that's physical, even if it never crossed any obvious lines. (And whether or not it crossed lines within the context of your relationship is up to you and your partner to sort out - it sounds like they didn't, but you're discovering you kind of think they did, ex post facto.)
It really makes a difference what the actual behavior was that's bugging you, although it is a separate question whether or not you should consider opening the relationship now.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:04 AM on December 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
Because the former... well, your relationship is your relationship, but I have a couple of friendships like that with married women, and it would never occur to me to worry about whether they were monogamous or not because that's just how friendships work sometimes. It has nothing to do with sex or relationships, even if I am attracted to them in addition to the friendship or if I think we could actually make a successful couple because we're so compatible. Until we go down the sex route, it's not a romantic relationship.
If it's the latter, then calling in "emotional intimacy" is muddying the waters. That's not emotional, that's physical, even if it never crossed any obvious lines. (And whether or not it crossed lines within the context of your relationship is up to you and your partner to sort out - it sounds like they didn't, but you're discovering you kind of think they did, ex post facto.)
It really makes a difference what the actual behavior was that's bugging you, although it is a separate question whether or not you should consider opening the relationship now.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:04 AM on December 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
That INCLUDES you talking to her (3rd party) about anything.
Just want to clarify that you should NOT do this until you and your sweetie have resolved everything.
posted by hermitosis at 10:04 AM on December 16, 2011
Just want to clarify that you should NOT do this until you and your sweetie have resolved everything.
posted by hermitosis at 10:04 AM on December 16, 2011
This third party made no promises or vows to you. They have no responsibility to you or your relationship.
I disagree with this. There's a societal norm that you don't get involved with someone who's (as far as you know) in a monogamous relationship. If I were in your situation, I'd be having a "WTF, I didn't agree to an open relationship" discussion with my partner, and a "STEP OFF, BITCH"discussion confrontation with the 3rd party.
You do not have to even discuss poly with your partner if you're sure you don't want it. In fact, I think it'd be a misleading jerk move to say you're considering it when you're really not. I've personally cut that discussion off at the pass; if that's something my husband wanted (he doesn't) then he can find someone else, and that's clear to him. I am not wired for it, and it doesn't sound like you are either.
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on December 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
I disagree with this. There's a societal norm that you don't get involved with someone who's (as far as you know) in a monogamous relationship. If I were in your situation, I'd be having a "WTF, I didn't agree to an open relationship" discussion with my partner, and a "STEP OFF, BITCH"
You do not have to even discuss poly with your partner if you're sure you don't want it. In fact, I think it'd be a misleading jerk move to say you're considering it when you're really not. I've personally cut that discussion off at the pass; if that's something my husband wanted (he doesn't) then he can find someone else, and that's clear to him. I am not wired for it, and it doesn't sound like you are either.
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on December 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
I disagree with this. There's a societal norm that you don't get involved with someone who's (as far as you know) in a monogamous relationship.
What I really mean is that there is little to nothing to be gained by confronting or attempting to threaten or shame this person. If the OP's partner is disrespecting the relationship by cheating (emotionally or physically), then it's more the fault of the partner and not the third party.
And, at that point, it's either over or it isn't, innit? People make choices.
All of this, of course, is predicated on the word of the partner, an admitted cheater. I'm sure they wanted to frame everything in the best light possible when they recounted the events of the conference to the OP. It could very well be that, although it was well-known that the partner was in a committed relationship, that she told the Third Party that poly was a possibility. Who knows? Can you really trust her word at this point?
posted by inturnaround at 10:51 AM on December 16, 2011
What I really mean is that there is little to nothing to be gained by confronting or attempting to threaten or shame this person. If the OP's partner is disrespecting the relationship by cheating (emotionally or physically), then it's more the fault of the partner and not the third party.
And, at that point, it's either over or it isn't, innit? People make choices.
All of this, of course, is predicated on the word of the partner, an admitted cheater. I'm sure they wanted to frame everything in the best light possible when they recounted the events of the conference to the OP. It could very well be that, although it was well-known that the partner was in a committed relationship, that she told the Third Party that poly was a possibility. Who knows? Can you really trust her word at this point?
posted by inturnaround at 10:51 AM on December 16, 2011
My gut feeling here is that you are trying to squeeze emotions into a language of contract law that is not a good fit for the human spirit.
posted by steinsaltz at 11:35 AM on December 16, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by steinsaltz at 11:35 AM on December 16, 2011 [16 favorites]
While I don't disagree with the juice of many of the answers here, I do think:
1) Maybe, just maybe, as in scenario 1 restless_nomad describes, this wasn't cheating or the strong intent to cheat.
Why do I posit this? Because no physical lines between Surprise Someone and your partner were crossed, because it happened all in the course of a seminar, because you two are now discussing this openly and this encounter did not lead to months of furtive texting and phoning and 'innocent' cocktails etc. (Plus, you don't identify the seminar, but if this was something like Landmark and not work-education related, please know those experiences are designed to pull down social walls and psyche-ic structures, with wildly unpredictable results.)
Call it Fate. In terms of what Surprise Someone gives: in self-reflection, hope, esteem, cascading love hormones? I could see where your partner would want to fully experience what the surprise had to offer. Many longstanding, beneficial and loving partnerships have been broken over this flash of intensity. Is polyamory really an option both you and your partner are putting on the table? Or has partner already made a choice? Or is this your unarticulated fear, that partner has already packed their mental bags and not given you the option of sticking around through thin and thick?
So I would try to let go of Surprise Someone's ethics scorecard. I would wonder where your partner's ethics stood, though, for the sake of the long haul. Were you spoken of at all in the course of their becoming intimate? Because I know first hand, no matter what the intent, partner behaving thusly hurts like hell, and nothing you have done or felt or thought makes you deserve this treatment.
2) I have had mixed experiences with polyamory in the past, both with this partner and also with other partners. I tend toward worried anxiety and jealousy both of which feed off of each other …
This is important. I am glad you are accessing therapy and considering couples therapy because this is a godawful lot of baggage you must pack. Your use of the term 'mixed' tells me that inspite of these pitfalls you have a huge heart that is trying to love unconditionally.
3) No one has offered any reading. I'm sorry. I haven't any book reading. But Opening Up by Tristan Taormino and The Ethical Slut by Janet Hardy & Dossie Easton gets mentioned alot.
Past AskMe's, under the keywords polyamory, trust, etc. is the reading I have done, and there's always something relevant to be found.
But, at a certain point, trying to make a logical structure based on reasearch doesn't stick to certain emotionally charged situations. It's a distraction from feeling the boundless chaos and hurt of this breach in security. Yeah, I'm totally projecting. This is where I'm at, but for different reasons. So I try to balance the impulses: reasearch, draw up a list then: put it down, take a walk, have a whiskey, watch stupid tv, cry. then later: revisit list, research, write new list ... all the while doing my utmost to be honest with myself.
I'm sorry you're spun. Please hang in there.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 11:49 AM on December 16, 2011
1) Maybe, just maybe, as in scenario 1 restless_nomad describes, this wasn't cheating or the strong intent to cheat.
Why do I posit this? Because no physical lines between Surprise Someone and your partner were crossed, because it happened all in the course of a seminar, because you two are now discussing this openly and this encounter did not lead to months of furtive texting and phoning and 'innocent' cocktails etc. (Plus, you don't identify the seminar, but if this was something like Landmark and not work-education related, please know those experiences are designed to pull down social walls and psyche-ic structures, with wildly unpredictable results.)
Call it Fate. In terms of what Surprise Someone gives: in self-reflection, hope, esteem, cascading love hormones? I could see where your partner would want to fully experience what the surprise had to offer. Many longstanding, beneficial and loving partnerships have been broken over this flash of intensity. Is polyamory really an option both you and your partner are putting on the table? Or has partner already made a choice? Or is this your unarticulated fear, that partner has already packed their mental bags and not given you the option of sticking around through thin and thick?
So I would try to let go of Surprise Someone's ethics scorecard. I would wonder where your partner's ethics stood, though, for the sake of the long haul. Were you spoken of at all in the course of their becoming intimate? Because I know first hand, no matter what the intent, partner behaving thusly hurts like hell, and nothing you have done or felt or thought makes you deserve this treatment.
2) I have had mixed experiences with polyamory in the past, both with this partner and also with other partners. I tend toward worried anxiety and jealousy both of which feed off of each other …
This is important. I am glad you are accessing therapy and considering couples therapy because this is a godawful lot of baggage you must pack. Your use of the term 'mixed' tells me that inspite of these pitfalls you have a huge heart that is trying to love unconditionally.
3) No one has offered any reading. I'm sorry. I haven't any book reading. But Opening Up by Tristan Taormino and The Ethical Slut by Janet Hardy & Dossie Easton gets mentioned alot.
Past AskMe's, under the keywords polyamory, trust, etc. is the reading I have done, and there's always something relevant to be found.
But, at a certain point, trying to make a logical structure based on reasearch doesn't stick to certain emotionally charged situations. It's a distraction from feeling the boundless chaos and hurt of this breach in security. Yeah, I'm totally projecting. This is where I'm at, but for different reasons. So I try to balance the impulses: reasearch, draw up a list then: put it down, take a walk, have a whiskey, watch stupid tv, cry. then later: revisit list, research, write new list ... all the while doing my utmost to be honest with myself.
I'm sorry you're spun. Please hang in there.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 11:49 AM on December 16, 2011
While I admire you trying to work things out with your partner, she has already gone outside the relationship and wants to continue with the 3rd party, without first considering your feelings and being honest with you. Your feelings of jealousy are normal. I believe I would be asking myself if I were in your shoes, if I really wanted a relationship with her at all. Personally, I wouldn't but that's me. Good luck. I hope things work out well.
posted by Avia925 at 12:05 PM on December 16, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Avia925 at 12:05 PM on December 16, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm not well versed in polyamory and the community standards that go with it. I'm a pretty vanilla, one-per-customer traditionalist. So this may not be what you're looking for.
But: You and your partner are not polyamorous. Your partner wants to be involved with another person despite your objections. She seems to be pushing it on you despite the fact that it makes you uncomfortable. You don't seem to have any reciprocal desires to be with other people.
Please don't overintellectualize these facts in an effort to come to the "correct" solution. You each have emotional needs and hers do not trump yours merely because they are more consistent with some abstract moral worldview, even one that seems to have merits. You're not under an obligation to be polyamorous if it's going to make you feel shitty. It sounds more than a little manipulative of her to suggest otherwise.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 1:35 PM on December 16, 2011 [9 favorites]
But: You and your partner are not polyamorous. Your partner wants to be involved with another person despite your objections. She seems to be pushing it on you despite the fact that it makes you uncomfortable. You don't seem to have any reciprocal desires to be with other people.
Please don't overintellectualize these facts in an effort to come to the "correct" solution. You each have emotional needs and hers do not trump yours merely because they are more consistent with some abstract moral worldview, even one that seems to have merits. You're not under an obligation to be polyamorous if it's going to make you feel shitty. It sounds more than a little manipulative of her to suggest otherwise.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 1:35 PM on December 16, 2011 [9 favorites]
Oh, dear.
I think you're intellectualizing up a storm. The reason I say that is that I find your question so abstract it's very hard to draw any conclusions about what you really mean, or how anyone has actually behaved, or exactly what information you're looking for.
Some things I think are important, as a poly person who has been around the block (and down the freeway, for that matter):
The details of how ThirdParty and your partner expressed mutual interest (if, indeed, they did) would matter a lot to me. I would want to know, if I did not know it already, who had said what. You ask about "ethical systems" for ThirdParty, so here's what my own standards would be for TP if I were them:
1. If your partner had made NO HINT of non-monogamy, there is no approach. If I've just spent several days having a lot of intense conversation with your partner, I might have, when I was younger, said something like "OP is a very lucky person," right before we both left the conference. I wouldn't even say that anymore, but I wouldn't judge someone too badly for saying it.
2. If your partner had said something CLEARLY indicating that your relationship was negotiably non-monogamous, and if I REALLY liked them, then I might, again, as we were leaving, say something like, "If you and OP ever work it out, give me a call."
3. If your partner had indicated that your relationship was already open, I'd be excited, express explicit interest, and would be eager to meet you before anything got physical.
The problem with this analysis as it applies to you is that it sounds like your partner may not have been in a position to even indicate that his relationship was potentially open. I'm trying to assume the best of this situation, but I'm having a hard time making it all come out all right.
Meantime. . . in my experience, people who tend towards anxiety and jealousy don't tend to change, no matter how much they really really want to. If I were the potential Third Party in this relationship, if I read what you'd written, I'd be very reluctant to get involved with your partner. "Wait, what? Your partner is jealous and anxious, you didn't have permission to tell me you were thinking about opening up, and your partner regards our three nights of intense conversation as a betrayal?! GOD NO."
That's not a comment on your boundaries, OP, but on the situation, which has drama llama written all over it.
As above, the standard book recs are Opening Up and The Ethical Slut. (FWIW, I've read the Ethical Slut, and I think it's fine but biased towards a particular model of poly -- but since that model is partnered dual primaries, it should be helpful for you. I've really liked the work of the author of Opening Up in other contexts, but I haven't read it. There's also Love Without Limits out there, which I can't really recommend.)
posted by endless_forms at 2:58 PM on December 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think you're intellectualizing up a storm. The reason I say that is that I find your question so abstract it's very hard to draw any conclusions about what you really mean, or how anyone has actually behaved, or exactly what information you're looking for.
Some things I think are important, as a poly person who has been around the block (and down the freeway, for that matter):
The details of how ThirdParty and your partner expressed mutual interest (if, indeed, they did) would matter a lot to me. I would want to know, if I did not know it already, who had said what. You ask about "ethical systems" for ThirdParty, so here's what my own standards would be for TP if I were them:
1. If your partner had made NO HINT of non-monogamy, there is no approach. If I've just spent several days having a lot of intense conversation with your partner, I might have, when I was younger, said something like "OP is a very lucky person," right before we both left the conference. I wouldn't even say that anymore, but I wouldn't judge someone too badly for saying it.
2. If your partner had said something CLEARLY indicating that your relationship was negotiably non-monogamous, and if I REALLY liked them, then I might, again, as we were leaving, say something like, "If you and OP ever work it out, give me a call."
3. If your partner had indicated that your relationship was already open, I'd be excited, express explicit interest, and would be eager to meet you before anything got physical.
The problem with this analysis as it applies to you is that it sounds like your partner may not have been in a position to even indicate that his relationship was potentially open. I'm trying to assume the best of this situation, but I'm having a hard time making it all come out all right.
Meantime. . . in my experience, people who tend towards anxiety and jealousy don't tend to change, no matter how much they really really want to. If I were the potential Third Party in this relationship, if I read what you'd written, I'd be very reluctant to get involved with your partner. "Wait, what? Your partner is jealous and anxious, you didn't have permission to tell me you were thinking about opening up, and your partner regards our three nights of intense conversation as a betrayal?! GOD NO."
That's not a comment on your boundaries, OP, but on the situation, which has drama llama written all over it.
As above, the standard book recs are Opening Up and The Ethical Slut. (FWIW, I've read the Ethical Slut, and I think it's fine but biased towards a particular model of poly -- but since that model is partnered dual primaries, it should be helpful for you. I've really liked the work of the author of Opening Up in other contexts, but I haven't read it. There's also Love Without Limits out there, which I can't really recommend.)
posted by endless_forms at 2:58 PM on December 16, 2011 [2 favorites]
people who tend towards anxiety and jealousy don't tend to change
This has been my experience, as this kind of person. I really, really wanted to be ok with being poly, but no matter how many books I read or hours I spent with my therapist, I could not do it. No amount of self-examination and intellectualization ever worked to stop the jealousy-fueled panic attacks.
Don't worry about the third person right now, worry about yourself and your relationship. And stop acting like it's all a big abstract ethical puzzle that follows some sort of predetermined set of rules that will all make sense once you find the right book about it. You are allowed to have feelings. You're allowed to be pissed off, at both your partner and the third person. You're allowed to want monogamy.
posted by ootandaboot at 3:54 PM on December 16, 2011 [6 favorites]
This has been my experience, as this kind of person. I really, really wanted to be ok with being poly, but no matter how many books I read or hours I spent with my therapist, I could not do it. No amount of self-examination and intellectualization ever worked to stop the jealousy-fueled panic attacks.
Don't worry about the third person right now, worry about yourself and your relationship. And stop acting like it's all a big abstract ethical puzzle that follows some sort of predetermined set of rules that will all make sense once you find the right book about it. You are allowed to have feelings. You're allowed to be pissed off, at both your partner and the third person. You're allowed to want monogamy.
posted by ootandaboot at 3:54 PM on December 16, 2011 [6 favorites]
I second everything the young rope-rider said.
My partner and I look monogamous to the world. Almost no one in our social circle knows about our open relationship. But one of our acquaintances hit on my husband (full-on launching herself at him and trying to make out) at a conference once. He followed our protocol, which is to stop things, call me, and discuss whether it was okay to go ahead. I said yes, kind of by rote, and then realised afterwards how hurt and angry I was that she, who knows me, decided it was okay to try and get him to 'cheat' (from her perspective) on me.
They had a fling for a few months, and it was actually really difficult for me (which is mainly why it ended), because I couldn't bring myself to like her, or see what he saw in her. I'm not usually a jealous person, but I felt jealous of and threatened by her specifically, because of the way things started with them.
So while a third party has no moral or ethical responsibility to your relationship as an outsider, they kind of do once they are involved with one or both of you IN the relationship. And also, it will be hard for you to see your partner being in lust, like, or love with someone who you are angry with or jealous of, so if you can't get past that, I think it should be a no-go.
posted by lollusc at 5:01 PM on December 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
My partner and I look monogamous to the world. Almost no one in our social circle knows about our open relationship. But one of our acquaintances hit on my husband (full-on launching herself at him and trying to make out) at a conference once. He followed our protocol, which is to stop things, call me, and discuss whether it was okay to go ahead. I said yes, kind of by rote, and then realised afterwards how hurt and angry I was that she, who knows me, decided it was okay to try and get him to 'cheat' (from her perspective) on me.
They had a fling for a few months, and it was actually really difficult for me (which is mainly why it ended), because I couldn't bring myself to like her, or see what he saw in her. I'm not usually a jealous person, but I felt jealous of and threatened by her specifically, because of the way things started with them.
So while a third party has no moral or ethical responsibility to your relationship as an outsider, they kind of do once they are involved with one or both of you IN the relationship. And also, it will be hard for you to see your partner being in lust, like, or love with someone who you are angry with or jealous of, so if you can't get past that, I think it should be a no-go.
posted by lollusc at 5:01 PM on December 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Anon, you are bending over backwards to try to find a way to make this situation the "Surprise" person's fault and paint that person as the villain here.
You have half-convinced yourself that your Sweetie is just a naive, innocent party who has been duped and that it is only the "surprise" that made her indulge in whatever the "emotional cheating" was this time. I can feel how desperately you want to be her knight in shining armor--you are even willing to open up your relationship just to keep her.
But the thing is, your sweetie is taking advantage of you. You shouldn't have to give up what you need from this relationship to keep her. Everyone above me said it.
And, honestly, I think you know it already--you and I both know this isn't your first question about your problems with this girl. If she won't go to couples therapy with you, you are only hurting yourself by not walking away from her. You may well be the knight in shining armor--you've certainly put up with a lot--but she is NOT the princess you are imagining her to be. DTMFA.
posted by misha at 5:08 PM on December 16, 2011 [3 favorites]
You have half-convinced yourself that your Sweetie is just a naive, innocent party who has been duped and that it is only the "surprise" that made her indulge in whatever the "emotional cheating" was this time. I can feel how desperately you want to be her knight in shining armor--you are even willing to open up your relationship just to keep her.
But the thing is, your sweetie is taking advantage of you. You shouldn't have to give up what you need from this relationship to keep her. Everyone above me said it.
And, honestly, I think you know it already--you and I both know this isn't your first question about your problems with this girl. If she won't go to couples therapy with you, you are only hurting yourself by not walking away from her. You may well be the knight in shining armor--you've certainly put up with a lot--but she is NOT the princess you are imagining her to be. DTMFA.
posted by misha at 5:08 PM on December 16, 2011 [3 favorites]
You are jealous. Its a feature not a bug. And you have a monogamous relationship, no?
so work it out from that perspective. If monogamy is what you want tell your partner that and if she won't provide it, lose her.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:18 PM on December 16, 2011
so work it out from that perspective. If monogamy is what you want tell your partner that and if she won't provide it, lose her.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:18 PM on December 16, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you all for the time and heart you put into your answers. I benefit directly from how diverse your answers and advice are. I appreciate the AskMe community and I'll do my best to give back as I'm able.posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:47 PM on December 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Things have changed a lot and gotten weirder and colder and warmer and more remote and more intimate as I navigate the shark-infested waters around this question with my partner. A lot of things have come to light and the ethics of dealing with Surprise Someone is no longer a concern in the regard that if polyamory ever becomes possible for me, it doesn't sound like I'll immediately need to deal with the Surprise Someone as an intimate partner for my partner.
At this point, the overall relationship renegotiation is in such open waters for me that I simply have no conceit of what the final solution or resolution will be. I think I'm not irrational in thinking that we'll remain in partnership together, but I am also pretty certain that the form of partnership will change pretty fundamentally before we're through.
I do want to assure everyone that my partner and I are doing not only couples therapy (I'm arranging that now) but individual therapy and that we're both working on fundamental issues in our personalities as well as doing the brutal hard work of figuring out a new relationship map between us (and we are both hard people to work with).
I also want to say that therapy is good for me, and I've already learned a number of techniques that are helping me with personal issues that certainly inform this shared set of issues in partnership but that really would benefit me directly if I could just find a way through them. At this point I view the obsessive, anxious, catastrophizing aspects of my jealousy (feature, thank you Ironmouth) as getting directly in the way of my being able to find and have happiness in the world, and I want to find ways of minimizing its influence on me while I go through life (whether or not it's so passionately entangled with my partner's). I don't necessarily think this will make me a poly person, but I can live in hope that it will allow my partner some of the leeway she craves without making me into something as crazy as a rat in a coffee can.
For my part, among other things I am taking on this absolute bear of a psychological piece of baggage (I think it must be made of sapient pearwood) that began when I was a wee tyke and has never been particularly addressed. My partner has been taking on similarly epic issues of her own.
I would like to reassure misha in particular that this is the first time AskMe has heard from my anonymously, but that those words about who is a knight and who is a princess are not lost on me all the same.
Thank you all again.
This thread is closed to new comments.
Does a third party need to ever speak a word or spare a thought for you? Does a third party need to be in bed with both of you? Probably somewhere in the middle, but it's 100% the decision of you and your partner where that line is drawn.
With that said, if a third party expressed interest in your (monogamous) partner, it's your partner's responsibility to tell them what the score is.
posted by Jairus at 9:36 AM on December 16, 2011 [3 favorites]