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	<title>Comments on: Book of Jonah Grammar Question</title>
	<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question/</link>
	<description>Comments on Ask MetaFilter post Book of Jonah Grammar Question</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:19:37 -0800</pubDate>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:01:44 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Question: Book of Jonah Grammar Question</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question</link>	
		<description>Jonah 1:4: &quot;the ship was like to be broken&quot; - &quot;&#1493;&#1456;&#1492;&#1464;&#1488;&#1459;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;&#1464;&#1468;&#1492; &#1495;&#1460;&#1513;&#1456;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1464;&#1492; &#1500;&#1456;&#1492;&#1460;&#1513;&#1464;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1461;&#1512;&quot; - what is the grammar of &#1495;&#1460;&#1513;&#1456;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1464;&#1492; ? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Is &#1495;&#1460;&#1513;&#1456;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1464;&#1492; an active or a passive verb? What is its binyan? What is its subject?</description>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:19:37 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Paquda</dc:creator>
		
			<category>bible</category>
		
			<category>hebrew</category>
		
			<category>jonah</category>
		
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		<title>By: greenmagnet</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2927307</link>	
		<description>It&apos;s the Pi&apos;el perfect 3rd feminine singular of &#1495;&#1513;&#1489;.  The subject is the ship (&#1488;&#1504;&#1497;&#1492;).  In Qal the basic meaning of &#1495;&#1513;&#1489; is to think.  In Pi&apos;el it can mean to consider or plan, or as in this case, to be about to.</description>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:01:44 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>greenmagnet</dc:creator>
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		<title>By: Paquda</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2927453</link>	
		<description>Thank you, greenmagnet. Your explanation works well.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
I have a couple of hesitations, though: Is the pi&apos;el form of &#1495;&#1513;&#1489; used elsewhere with a meaning of &apos;be about to&apos;? I don&apos;t have a concordance to check this. I have seen it used to mean something like &apos;calculate.&apos;. Also, isn&apos;t it bizarrely anthropomorphic to use a verb that basically refers to mental activity to talk about what a boat is doing?&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
I keep getting a vague intuition that the verb might be meant to be passive. I know the vocalization is a problem: the first vowel should be &apos;u&apos; not &apos;i&apos; if it were a pu&apos;al construction, which is I guess what I want to take it as.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Looking at the Vulgate online, it seems like it might be taking it as a passive: &apos;et navis periclitabatur conteri&apos;, with &apos;periclitabatur&apos;, a passive imperfect, for &#1495;&#1460;&#1513;&#1456;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1464;&#1492;.</description>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:35:53 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Paquda</dc:creator>
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		<title>By: stebulus</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2927664</link>	
		<description>&lt;i&gt;periclitor&lt;/i&gt; is a &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deponent_verb&quot;&gt;deponent verb&lt;/a&gt;, so its passiveness is purely syntactic, not semantic, and doesn&apos;t imply that the translator thought the original was passive.</description>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:54:45 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>stebulus</dc:creator>
	</item><item>
		<title>By: Paquda</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2927749</link>	
		<description>Okay, stebulus. Thank you for correcting me. My Latin is minimal, so I shouldn&apos;t have tried to use it.</description>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:54:21 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Paquda</dc:creator>
	</item><item>
		<title>By: ariela</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2927904</link>	
		<description>From the &#1513;&#1512;&#1513; (root) of &#1495;&#1513;&#1489; we also get thinking, consider, calculation, reckoning, etc. You can also interpret this to mean the ship owners. Not that the ship considered its destruction, but that those on the ship considered it. &lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Ibn Ezra gives this additional example of using &quot;the name of the vessel rather than the contents of the vessel:&quot; From Isaiah &quot;&#1492;&#1514;&#1504;&#1506;&#1512;&#1497; &#1502;&#1506;&#1508;&#1512; &#1511;&#1493;&#1502;&#1497; &#1513;&#1489;&#1497; &#1497;&#1512;&#1493;&#1513;&#1500;&#1501;&quot; &quot;Shake yourself from the dust, arise, sit down Jerusalem.&quot; &lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
If you feel like translating a lot more, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lib.cet.ac.il/pages/item.asp?item=11341&quot;&gt;here you go&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:16:41 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ariela</dc:creator>
	</item><item>
		<title>By: Paquda</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2928588</link>	
		<description>So, ariela, the page you linked to quotes Ibn Ezra and R. David Kimhi saying that &apos;ship&apos; is a metonymy for the ship&apos;s personnel, in the way that &apos;when the land sinneth against me&apos; in Ezekiel 14:13 is not referring to the ground itself but to the inhabitants of the land:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
&#1493;&#1492;&#1488;&#1504;&#1497;&#1492; &#1495;&#1513;&#1489;&#1492; &#1500;&#1492;&#1513;&#1489;&#1512; &#8211; &#1512;&#1488;&#1489;&quot;&#1506;: &quot;&#1499;&#1502;&#1493; &apos;...&#1488;&#1512;&#1509; &#1499;&#1497; &#1514;&#1495;&#1496;&#1488; &#1500;&#1497;...&apos; (&#1497;&#1495;&#1494;&#1511;&#1488;&#1500; &#1497;&#1491;, &#1497;&#1490;). &#1512;&#1491;&quot;&#1511;: &#1506;&#1500; &#1491;&#1512;&#1498; &#1492;&#1512;&#1495;&#1489;&#1514; &#1492;&#1500;&#1513;&#1493;&#1503;, &#1499;&#1500; &#1488;&#1504;&#1513;&#1497; &#1492;&#1488;&#1493;&#1504;&#1497;&#1497;&#1492; &#1495;&#1513;&#1489;&#1493; &#1513;&#1514;&#1513;&#1489;&#1512; &#1492;&#1488;&#1504;&#1497;&#1492;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
In this interpretation,  &#1495;&#1460;&#1513;&#1456;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1464;&#1492; is used in a sense that remains within the word&apos;s normal range of meanings, having to do with &apos;thinking&apos; or &apos;reckoning&apos;, with the sailors being the ones doing the thinking/reckoning.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
I&apos;m not sure this reading is any smoother than greenmagnet&apos;s. For one thing, why is &#1500;&#1456;&#1492;&#1460;&#1513;&#1464;&#1468;&#1473;&#1489;&#1461;&#1512; in the infinitive? In a statement that so-and-so thought such-and-such, wouldn&apos;t you expect a relative clause with a verb in the imperfect, something along the lines of: &#1495;&#1513;&#1489;&#1492; &#1513;&#1497;&#1513;&#1489;&#1512; hishshevah she-yishabber.</description>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:08:26 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Paquda</dc:creator>
	</item><item>
		<title>By: Salamandrous</title>
		<link>http://ask.metafilter.com/203156/Book-of-Jonah-Grammar-Question#2928596</link>	
		<description>I think there may also be a poetic element.  Maybe it could used the shoresh ayin-mem-dalet, but it wouldn&apos;t have sounded as nice with l&apos;hishaber.</description>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:14:40 -0800</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Salamandrous</dc:creator>
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