This time, does it really have to be personal?
December 9, 2011 9:42 AM Subscribe
What examples are there of hero stories (books, movies, etc) wherein the hero and villain don't come into contact until the climax?
I'm writing a story where there's an obvious villain and an obvious hero/protagonist, but they don't actually come into direct contact until the end. I'm a little concerned that the hero-villain dynamic is
The hero is a total nobody just coping with a tough life. The villain runs around doing horrible criminal things. While the hero sees what's going on and naturally wishes he could do something about it (just because he's a moral individual), there's no actual relationship until the climax, wherein a confrontation is forced on the hero.
The reader gets plenty of exposure to both characters throughout the book, but again, there's no contact until the very end. It's only "personal" in that the hero has occasionally met some of the villain's victims and/or seen the damage done.
Are there examples of this sort of thing elsewhere? I get really tired of seeing constant personal relationships in these sorts of stories, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something by leaving it entirely impersonal.
(For what it's worth, I've always been told that character development is one of my strengths as a writer. I'm not sure if that's my actual problem here.)
I'm writing a story where there's an obvious villain and an obvious hero/protagonist, but they don't actually come into direct contact until the end. I'm a little concerned that the hero-villain dynamic is
The hero is a total nobody just coping with a tough life. The villain runs around doing horrible criminal things. While the hero sees what's going on and naturally wishes he could do something about it (just because he's a moral individual), there's no actual relationship until the climax, wherein a confrontation is forced on the hero.
The reader gets plenty of exposure to both characters throughout the book, but again, there's no contact until the very end. It's only "personal" in that the hero has occasionally met some of the villain's victims and/or seen the damage done.
Are there examples of this sort of thing elsewhere? I get really tired of seeing constant personal relationships in these sorts of stories, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something by leaving it entirely impersonal.
(For what it's worth, I've always been told that character development is one of my strengths as a writer. I'm not sure if that's my actual problem here.)
Response by poster: In case genre matters: this is basically a sci-fi story. It's about unchecked corporate greed, the crushing burdens of student debt and space pirates.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:46 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:46 AM on December 9, 2011
In a somewhat extreme case, The Fifth Element is an outrageous sci-fi action movie in which the protagonist and villain never have any contact.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:48 AM on December 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:48 AM on December 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
Blade Runner?
posted by Jairus at 9:49 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Jairus at 9:49 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
The Fugitive? I don't think Kimble and the detective crossed paths until the end, but I could be wrong.
posted by smirkette at 9:50 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by smirkette at 9:50 AM on December 9, 2011
The Empire Strikes Back
posted by swift at 9:51 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by swift at 9:51 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't think Kimble and the detective crossed paths until the end, but I could be wrong.
Don't they meet in the water tunnel early on....or relatively so?
posted by lampshade at 10:00 AM on December 9, 2011
Don't they meet in the water tunnel early on....or relatively so?
posted by lampshade at 10:00 AM on December 9, 2011
(but that was the movie...don't know about the TV show with David Jannsen)
posted by lampshade at 10:04 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by lampshade at 10:04 AM on December 9, 2011
One of the best is the Day of the Jackal, the movie especially. You follow each character very closely but they end up being in the same scene for all of six seconds at the end of the film.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:13 AM on December 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:13 AM on December 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
I believe Superman and Lex Luthor manage to avoid each other for almost the entire excruciating run time of Superman Returns.
posted by dortmunder at 10:19 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by dortmunder at 10:19 AM on December 9, 2011
Also, Holmes and Moriarty do a pretty good job of avoiding each other in Doyle's stories, now that I think about it.
posted by dortmunder at 10:21 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by dortmunder at 10:21 AM on December 9, 2011
Men in Black. Okay, so the villian is an alien with not much character development...
posted by Dolley at 10:23 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Dolley at 10:23 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
In the comic book genre, Grant Morrison's Seven Soldiers of Victory does this. Except a number of different characters and storylines converge right at the end, not just two.
posted by LN at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by LN at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
There was a second part of your question where you asked if your story dynamic might be missing out on something by postponing the hero-villain face-off.
Some things I like to check for:
- I might have interpreted your question wrong, but I got the sense you might be concerned that the hero's troubled life operates in a separate sphere from the villain's cries? Is there any chance the hero is reacting too passively to the villain's crimes, rather than taking a strong, active role early on in getting himself involved in the quest, i.e. miscalculating and locking himself in a battle he can't walk away from?
- Is there any chance the villain could somehow do more thwarting of the hero's goals?
Movie example: Ghostbusters's Zuul.
posted by steinsaltz at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2011
Some things I like to check for:
- I might have interpreted your question wrong, but I got the sense you might be concerned that the hero's troubled life operates in a separate sphere from the villain's cries? Is there any chance the hero is reacting too passively to the villain's crimes, rather than taking a strong, active role early on in getting himself involved in the quest, i.e. miscalculating and locking himself in a battle he can't walk away from?
- Is there any chance the villain could somehow do more thwarting of the hero's goals?
Movie example: Ghostbusters's Zuul.
posted by steinsaltz at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2011
Didn't mean to type cries, but crimes.
posted by steinsaltz at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by steinsaltz at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2011
Old Boy.
posted by suedehead at 10:31 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by suedehead at 10:31 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
The last Sherlock Holmes movie. I say movie because I don't remember the stories having POV from the villain.
Star Wars: A New Hope. Well, basically every movie of that trilogy has Luke confront Vader at the end of the movie only.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:33 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Star Wars: A New Hope. Well, basically every movie of that trilogy has Luke confront Vader at the end of the movie only.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:33 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Old Boy.
No, they meet a couple of times, it's just that Dai-su doesn't know who he is, and they talk on the phone. And, in a way, they're in constant contact, which is the whole drive behind the movie.
posted by cmoj at 10:35 AM on December 9, 2011
No, they meet a couple of times, it's just that Dai-su doesn't know who he is, and they talk on the phone. And, in a way, they're in constant contact, which is the whole drive behind the movie.
posted by cmoj at 10:35 AM on December 9, 2011
A great example is Scanners.
posted by steinsaltz at 10:36 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by steinsaltz at 10:36 AM on December 9, 2011
Sleepless in Seattle.
More seriously, The Algebraist, by Iain M. Banks is an excellent book wherein the main protagonist and antagonist, if I remember correctly, never actually meet. And there are space pirates.
posted by Terminal Verbosity at 10:38 AM on December 9, 2011
More seriously, The Algebraist, by Iain M. Banks is an excellent book wherein the main protagonist and antagonist, if I remember correctly, never actually meet. And there are space pirates.
posted by Terminal Verbosity at 10:38 AM on December 9, 2011
I don't think Kimble and the detective crossed paths until the end, but I could be wrong.
Don't they meet in the water tunnel early on....or relatively so?
They did, but I think that's immaterial because neither of them is the villain.
(Or were you talking about the TV series, rather than the movie, smirkette? I don't know the TV series so you may be right about that one--both about them not meeting until the end and possibly about the detective being the villain.)
That movie's kind of all over the place as an example--one of the villains, the one-armed man, doesn't encounter Kimble (hero) until near the end on the subway. The other one, though (Dr. Nichols), Kimble has known forever, although Gerard doesn't meet him until the end. (I can't remember if he's the one who kills Nichols or if Kimble actually does.)
posted by dlugoczaj at 10:40 AM on December 9, 2011
Don't they meet in the water tunnel early on....or relatively so?
They did, but I think that's immaterial because neither of them is the villain.
(Or were you talking about the TV series, rather than the movie, smirkette? I don't know the TV series so you may be right about that one--both about them not meeting until the end and possibly about the detective being the villain.)
That movie's kind of all over the place as an example--one of the villains, the one-armed man, doesn't encounter Kimble (hero) until near the end on the subway. The other one, though (Dr. Nichols), Kimble has known forever, although Gerard doesn't meet him until the end. (I can't remember if he's the one who kills Nichols or if Kimble actually does.)
posted by dlugoczaj at 10:40 AM on December 9, 2011
Main villain in Altered Carbon appears briefly but in a non-villain role. Meets protagonist again in the role of main villain at the end.
posted by MangyCarface at 10:59 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by MangyCarface at 10:59 AM on December 9, 2011
Also, Holmes and Moriarty do a pretty good job of avoiding each other in Doyle's stories, now that I think about it.
Moriarty is only really retconned in as the crime boss Big Bad in "The Final Problem", where he first appears.
Kung-Fu Panda.
posted by Sparx at 12:21 PM on December 9, 2011
Moriarty is only really retconned in as the crime boss Big Bad in "The Final Problem", where he first appears.
Kung-Fu Panda.
posted by Sparx at 12:21 PM on December 9, 2011
Best answer: Lord of the Rings?
Aside from the palantir encounter, I don't think any of the heroes ever come in contact with Sauron.
posted by 7life at 12:33 PM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
Aside from the palantir encounter, I don't think any of the heroes ever come in contact with Sauron.
posted by 7life at 12:33 PM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
For certain definitions of the words "hero" and "villain." The above comments about The Fugitive acknowledge you can have an antagonist who is not villainous.
Kurtz, Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now.
Kill Bill, if you discount the flashbacks, however it's definitely not an example of avoiding "personal relationships."
The Hunter has Parker initially pursuing someone who had double-crossed him but after he finds him and learns he's paid the money to the Organization, Parker goes after the Organization for his money.
posted by RobotHero at 1:02 PM on December 9, 2011
Kurtz, Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now.
Kill Bill, if you discount the flashbacks, however it's definitely not an example of avoiding "personal relationships."
The Hunter has Parker initially pursuing someone who had double-crossed him but after he finds him and learns he's paid the money to the Organization, Parker goes after the Organization for his money.
posted by RobotHero at 1:02 PM on December 9, 2011
Heat.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:57 PM on December 9, 2011
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:57 PM on December 9, 2011
Star Wars: A New Hope. Well, basically every movie of that trilogy has Luke confront Vader at the end of the movie only.
And more, the Emperor is the villain behind the scenes for all three of those movies and Luke only meets him at the end of the third.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:34 PM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
And more, the Emperor is the villain behind the scenes for all three of those movies and Luke only meets him at the end of the third.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:34 PM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you admit the existence of the second two films, Neo (and the audience) only meet the main AI at the end of the third Matrix movie.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:39 PM on December 9, 2011
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:39 PM on December 9, 2011
It's a children's show, but in Avatar: The Last Airbender, hero Aang doesn't meet the big bad Ozai until the very last episode (that was actually four regular episodes rolled into one.)
posted by FakePalindrome at 4:20 AM on December 10, 2011
posted by FakePalindrome at 4:20 AM on December 10, 2011
The Wizard of Oz... I think?
In one of the first scenes of the movie, Elmira Gulch meets her nemesis the witch-killer and threatens destruction of her little dog, too.
Dorothy meets The Wizard at the end of the movie, but he is not a villain, or a even a bad man. He's just a very bad wizard.
What you're probably saying is that opium-addled Dorothy, who murders two women, stealing a pair of shoes and a broom in the process, is the villain in this story. So in that case, yes, The Wizard of Oz fits the mold of the question.
posted by swift at 7:26 PM on December 12, 2011
In one of the first scenes of the movie, Elmira Gulch meets her nemesis the witch-killer and threatens destruction of her little dog, too.
Dorothy meets The Wizard at the end of the movie, but he is not a villain, or a even a bad man. He's just a very bad wizard.
What you're probably saying is that opium-addled Dorothy, who murders two women, stealing a pair of shoes and a broom in the process, is the villain in this story. So in that case, yes, The Wizard of Oz fits the mold of the question.
posted by swift at 7:26 PM on December 12, 2011
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posted by restless_nomad at 9:45 AM on December 9, 2011