How to handle disrespect/aggression from youth
December 8, 2011 9:07 PM Subscribe
How should I approach a youth with an 'attitude problem'?
I work with youth aged 3 to 15. It's the best job in the world and I enjoy every single minute of it. But working with youth has its challenges. Occasionally, I'll encounter an "attitude problem". I don't like defining it that way - but these kids will routinely talk back, be extremely difficult/disruptive and sometimes aggressive. To give one example, all the kids are given candy at the end of each play date. All the kids get a specific number (handed to them by me) since we only have a limited budget for this. One of the kids though, will snatch a handful of candy while I'm not looking - and will go as far as to deny that he took any even if he saw him. Other tactics include violently snatching it from my hands or wrestling with me as I am putting them away. Initially, I tried talking to him patiently, and explaining to him that it is not fair to the other kids who get less, but after consistently talking back to me/showing aggression, I've had to tell him firmly that what he is doing is rude and no one appreciates that kind of behaviour.
Not sure what to do, or how to handle this situation anymore. It is not that he is a bad kid, in fact he has great potential when pushed in the right direction. His mom is also present at the play date, but either talks to her kids in a demeaning way, or does not discipline them at all. Should I talk to the mom? (she has observed this 'bad behaviour' though, as well as the frustration of those working with her kid, but seems helpless to correct it). Should I talk to him, treat him differently than I do now?
I work with youth aged 3 to 15. It's the best job in the world and I enjoy every single minute of it. But working with youth has its challenges. Occasionally, I'll encounter an "attitude problem". I don't like defining it that way - but these kids will routinely talk back, be extremely difficult/disruptive and sometimes aggressive. To give one example, all the kids are given candy at the end of each play date. All the kids get a specific number (handed to them by me) since we only have a limited budget for this. One of the kids though, will snatch a handful of candy while I'm not looking - and will go as far as to deny that he took any even if he saw him. Other tactics include violently snatching it from my hands or wrestling with me as I am putting them away. Initially, I tried talking to him patiently, and explaining to him that it is not fair to the other kids who get less, but after consistently talking back to me/showing aggression, I've had to tell him firmly that what he is doing is rude and no one appreciates that kind of behaviour.
Not sure what to do, or how to handle this situation anymore. It is not that he is a bad kid, in fact he has great potential when pushed in the right direction. His mom is also present at the play date, but either talks to her kids in a demeaning way, or does not discipline them at all. Should I talk to the mom? (she has observed this 'bad behaviour' though, as well as the frustration of those working with her kid, but seems helpless to correct it). Should I talk to him, treat him differently than I do now?
How old is the kid? If he's closer to 3, you'll get a very different answer from the one you'd get if he's closer to 15.
posted by nadise at 9:21 PM on December 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by nadise at 9:21 PM on December 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Compassion, honesty, direct communication, and humor.
posted by hapax_legomenon at 9:31 PM on December 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by hapax_legomenon at 9:31 PM on December 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I used to work in a preschool, and spent several years as a substitute teacher. Talking to kids about what they're doing is, in my opinion, the absolute best option...but it's one that isn't always effective for all kids. My experience is that for about 90% of them, talking to them or flat-out telling them that they're being rude will fix the problem. The other ten percent need something else. What that something else could be varies from child to child and situation to situation, but depending on the child's age and the surrounding circumstances, time outs, withholding privileges, or being made to do some sort of punishment might be effective.
Maybe if he grabs for candy today, he doesn't get any tomorrow--some kids will respond to this, but others aren't able to get past the immediate candy today! window. Maybe grabbing for a treat means that they become the helper after [projects, whatever] and have to wipe down the table, or it means that they're the last to [choose something, do something, etc.] Make these blanket consequences, if it comes to this--from now on, anyone who does thing X will be punished with punishment Y.
My best guess is that if the mother's standing there witnessing this and isn't inclined to do anything of her own accord, involving her will not only not solve the problem, but may in fact make it worse. At best, she'll discipline him in the way that she's accustomed to doing--which, from the sounds of it, is demeaning him, which is unlikely to have the long-term effect you want. At worst, she'll become hostile and defensive, potentially siding with her child instead of you, and then you'll have two problems instead of one.
posted by MeghanC at 10:48 PM on December 8, 2011
Maybe if he grabs for candy today, he doesn't get any tomorrow--some kids will respond to this, but others aren't able to get past the immediate candy today! window. Maybe grabbing for a treat means that they become the helper after [projects, whatever] and have to wipe down the table, or it means that they're the last to [choose something, do something, etc.] Make these blanket consequences, if it comes to this--from now on, anyone who does thing X will be punished with punishment Y.
My best guess is that if the mother's standing there witnessing this and isn't inclined to do anything of her own accord, involving her will not only not solve the problem, but may in fact make it worse. At best, she'll discipline him in the way that she's accustomed to doing--which, from the sounds of it, is demeaning him, which is unlikely to have the long-term effect you want. At worst, she'll become hostile and defensive, potentially siding with her child instead of you, and then you'll have two problems instead of one.
posted by MeghanC at 10:48 PM on December 8, 2011
This appeared in an article by Paul Tough in the NY Times on 9-14:
.....Though the seven character strengths aren’t included in every lesson at KIPP, they do make it into most conversations about discipline. One day last winter, I was speaking with Sayuri Stabrowski, a 30-year-old seventh-and-eighth-grade reading teacher at KIPP Infinity, and she mentioned that she caught a girl chewing gum in her class earlier that day. “She denied it,” Stabrowski told me. “She said, ‘No, I’m not, I’m chewing my tongue.’ ” Stabrowski rolled her eyes as she told me the story. “I said, ‘O.K. fine.’ Then later in the class, I saw her chewing again, and I said: ‘You’re chewing gum! I see you.’ She said, ‘No, I’m not, see?’ and she moved the gum over in her mouth in this really obvious way, and we all saw what she was doing. Now, a couple of years ago, I probably would have blown my top and screamed. But this time, I was able to say: ‘Gosh, not only were you chewing gum, which is kind of minor, but you lied to me twice. That’s a real disappointment. What does that say about your character?’ And she was just devastated.”
posted by brujita at 11:28 PM on December 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
.....Though the seven character strengths aren’t included in every lesson at KIPP, they do make it into most conversations about discipline. One day last winter, I was speaking with Sayuri Stabrowski, a 30-year-old seventh-and-eighth-grade reading teacher at KIPP Infinity, and she mentioned that she caught a girl chewing gum in her class earlier that day. “She denied it,” Stabrowski told me. “She said, ‘No, I’m not, I’m chewing my tongue.’ ” Stabrowski rolled her eyes as she told me the story. “I said, ‘O.K. fine.’ Then later in the class, I saw her chewing again, and I said: ‘You’re chewing gum! I see you.’ She said, ‘No, I’m not, see?’ and she moved the gum over in her mouth in this really obvious way, and we all saw what she was doing. Now, a couple of years ago, I probably would have blown my top and screamed. But this time, I was able to say: ‘Gosh, not only were you chewing gum, which is kind of minor, but you lied to me twice. That’s a real disappointment. What does that say about your character?’ And she was just devastated.”
posted by brujita at 11:28 PM on December 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I work with kids, lots of kids, from all types of backgrounds and home lives. I see more then a thousand kids a year who are under my direct or indirect supervision. None of them are ever physically aggressive with me; at least not more then once. Its all about how you carry yourself.
My rules are simple, easy to follow and consistent. When you cross those rules or step out of line I let you know. My tone drops and volume decreases, my face becomes blank, my posture is relaxed but upright. I tell the kid exactly what he has done and why it was wrong, how it has affected my and the rest of the students. I then clearly explain what the punishment is and why. Kids are way more receptive then most people think, they understand the meaning behind the voice really well. You can curse and scream at a child till your blue in the face and it will not do any good, its about letting them know that they messed up and its a big deal.
General tips:
Never ask a child a question you know the answer to. They will lie, they always lie, good kids lie.
If you are frustrated they will read you like a book, you are frustrated because you have almost no real authority over any child that is not yours. Calm down before dealing with any child.
Good luck, it can be rough sometimes.
posted by Felex at 11:43 PM on December 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
My rules are simple, easy to follow and consistent. When you cross those rules or step out of line I let you know. My tone drops and volume decreases, my face becomes blank, my posture is relaxed but upright. I tell the kid exactly what he has done and why it was wrong, how it has affected my and the rest of the students. I then clearly explain what the punishment is and why. Kids are way more receptive then most people think, they understand the meaning behind the voice really well. You can curse and scream at a child till your blue in the face and it will not do any good, its about letting them know that they messed up and its a big deal.
General tips:
Never ask a child a question you know the answer to. They will lie, they always lie, good kids lie.
If you are frustrated they will read you like a book, you are frustrated because you have almost no real authority over any child that is not yours. Calm down before dealing with any child.
Good luck, it can be rough sometimes.
posted by Felex at 11:43 PM on December 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Stop giving the candy out. Just stop. If they ask why, say there's no more candy.
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 1:56 AM on December 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 1:56 AM on December 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm with Ms. Moonlight.
One day... no vodka.
posted by flabdablet at 2:51 AM on December 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
One day... no vodka.
posted by flabdablet at 2:51 AM on December 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'd say for every piece of candy he snatches, that's one play date where he gets no candy at all but if he's also taking it when you're not looking and being violent with you to get it, I agree that no candy for anyone is probably the best solution. Although, if anyone asked, I'd tell them exactly why there was no candy any more.
Another option is to reframe it, both with him and his mother, as what it really is - stealing. He is taking something that doesn't belong to him, he is stealing. It also sounds like he is assaulting you to get the candy when he can't steal it. That might sound harsh, he's just a kid and its only candy... how would you react if he were stealing money instead? Because that's what he is effectively doing, every time he steals candy, he's taking money from your organisation.
I also agree that his age is relevant. There's a big difference between a 3 year old snatching candy and a 15 year old snatching candy.
Personally, I'd just tell the mother that her kid isn't welcome any more. If he can't behave and she wont do anything about it, they shouldn't get the privilege of having play dates.
posted by missmagenta at 3:24 AM on December 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
Another option is to reframe it, both with him and his mother, as what it really is - stealing. He is taking something that doesn't belong to him, he is stealing. It also sounds like he is assaulting you to get the candy when he can't steal it. That might sound harsh, he's just a kid and its only candy... how would you react if he were stealing money instead? Because that's what he is effectively doing, every time he steals candy, he's taking money from your organisation.
I also agree that his age is relevant. There's a big difference between a 3 year old snatching candy and a 15 year old snatching candy.
Personally, I'd just tell the mother that her kid isn't welcome any more. If he can't behave and she wont do anything about it, they shouldn't get the privilege of having play dates.
posted by missmagenta at 3:24 AM on December 9, 2011 [2 favorites]
Another option is to start thinking about your attention as a reward. For some kids, they want attention in any form from adults. If you withdraw your attention (walk away, ignore, disengage or even a time out for the child) when the bad behavior is happening, but balance that with GOBS of praise and interaction and excitement when he's doing what you want, that might go a long way. Also, try to give him positive behaviors to try to achieve. Rather than telling him "stop grabbing" try to frame it as a behavior you do want "you need to wait your turn, then put your hand out so I can put the candy in it." If he knows what exactly you do want, he has a much better chance of actually doing that.
posted by goggie at 4:11 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by goggie at 4:11 AM on December 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
I work with kids and mentors and we tell the mentors not to give gifts or candy or buy stuff at all really for the kids. I agree with Ms. Moonlight. No more candy for any of the kids.
posted by smirkyfodder at 6:23 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by smirkyfodder at 6:23 AM on December 9, 2011
Response by poster: Hi everyone, thanks a lot for your reply! He is around 9 years old. He also has two other siblings that come to the play date, but none of them act the same way.
posted by raintree at 8:13 AM on December 9, 2011
posted by raintree at 8:13 AM on December 9, 2011
I suppose changing the candy policy to "No candy for anyone" on the principle that candy is causing problems is a reasonable solution from a practical perspective, but the other children almost certainly will interpret that as the group being punished for the actions of an individual, which is not a tactic I've ever personally been fond of.
I agree this could be a sign of food insecurity or other problems at home (that was actually the very first thing I thought of -- I used to be a hungry as in going-hungry kid, and I know what that feels like, and I STILL to this day hide extra food in my house and eat too much at buffets, etc.) so you might want to subtly check on that. The mother is unlikely to tell you if you ask her bluntly, but you could make a general announcement to the group that, in these hard economic times, anyone who is having trouble getting enough food for a holiday celebration at home should contact you for a referral to a program that could help them get free food. You'll need to actually research some food resources to refer people to before announcing that, of course.
OTOH it could just genuinely be an attitude problem. I work with kids age 4 - 14 on a regular basis, many of whom have genuine excuses for attitude problems (the kids I work with have attention issues / OCD / learning disabilities / autism spectrum disorders, so I see a lot of interesting behavior). Sometimes there's a reasonable reason for a kid to act like a jerk, and sometimes kids just act like jerks because they think they can get away with it.
Here's how I would handle this particular problem:
Immediately BEFORE handing out candy (not while you are handing it out but before), make an announcement to all of the kids that if anyone takes someone else's candy without asking and eats it or refuses to return it, that person will be asked to return his or her candy to you and as a consequence will not receive candy next time. Also anyone who tries to stop you from putting candy away will face the same consequences.
Making it a general announcement makes it clear the rules apply to everyone, not just specifically to the kid who is causing problems, which should hopefully prevent the kid's mom from freaking out on you.
Anticipate that the kid will try to break the rules anyway. Watch him. Closely. When the kid starts break either of these rules -- preferably before he even manages to finish the action -- say, "[Kid], are you choosing to give up your candy privileges? Is that the choice you want to make?"
I have found that phrasing the behavior specifically as making a choice really, really helps with pushy kids who don't like to listen to adults. Because instead of overtly asserting your authority over the kid (which causes some kids who have authority issues to really push back), or engaging in a complicated moral lecture (which the kid will tune out, because, hi, he is nine, he KNOWS already that adults believe stealing is wrong), you are framing your question to show that you believe the child has free will and is responsible for his own actions. Yes, he can choose to steal someone else's candy, but that choice will result in a consequence he may not want. He can also choose to behave according to the rules.
Other language I often use is "I believe you know what the rules are. I believe you can follow the rules. How about showing me?"
He does know what he ought to do. He does have a choice. He has the power to make his own day better. But lot of kids who are constantly getting into trouble -- especially kids who are constantly being demeaned by one or more of the adults who are supposed to care for them -- actually sort of stop believing they have the power to be good. If you know you're bad and you think you're just going to get punished or yelled at or insulted at some point in the day anyway, why bother to even try following the rules?
I've personally seen it help a lot when I've reminded kids that they do have choices, and I believe in their ability to make a good one. Of course, each kid is different, so this may not work in your case. But I do think it's worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
posted by BlueJae at 8:35 AM on December 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
I agree this could be a sign of food insecurity or other problems at home (that was actually the very first thing I thought of -- I used to be a hungry as in going-hungry kid, and I know what that feels like, and I STILL to this day hide extra food in my house and eat too much at buffets, etc.) so you might want to subtly check on that. The mother is unlikely to tell you if you ask her bluntly, but you could make a general announcement to the group that, in these hard economic times, anyone who is having trouble getting enough food for a holiday celebration at home should contact you for a referral to a program that could help them get free food. You'll need to actually research some food resources to refer people to before announcing that, of course.
OTOH it could just genuinely be an attitude problem. I work with kids age 4 - 14 on a regular basis, many of whom have genuine excuses for attitude problems (the kids I work with have attention issues / OCD / learning disabilities / autism spectrum disorders, so I see a lot of interesting behavior). Sometimes there's a reasonable reason for a kid to act like a jerk, and sometimes kids just act like jerks because they think they can get away with it.
Here's how I would handle this particular problem:
Immediately BEFORE handing out candy (not while you are handing it out but before), make an announcement to all of the kids that if anyone takes someone else's candy without asking and eats it or refuses to return it, that person will be asked to return his or her candy to you and as a consequence will not receive candy next time. Also anyone who tries to stop you from putting candy away will face the same consequences.
Making it a general announcement makes it clear the rules apply to everyone, not just specifically to the kid who is causing problems, which should hopefully prevent the kid's mom from freaking out on you.
Anticipate that the kid will try to break the rules anyway. Watch him. Closely. When the kid starts break either of these rules -- preferably before he even manages to finish the action -- say, "[Kid], are you choosing to give up your candy privileges? Is that the choice you want to make?"
I have found that phrasing the behavior specifically as making a choice really, really helps with pushy kids who don't like to listen to adults. Because instead of overtly asserting your authority over the kid (which causes some kids who have authority issues to really push back), or engaging in a complicated moral lecture (which the kid will tune out, because, hi, he is nine, he KNOWS already that adults believe stealing is wrong), you are framing your question to show that you believe the child has free will and is responsible for his own actions. Yes, he can choose to steal someone else's candy, but that choice will result in a consequence he may not want. He can also choose to behave according to the rules.
Other language I often use is "I believe you know what the rules are. I believe you can follow the rules. How about showing me?"
He does know what he ought to do. He does have a choice. He has the power to make his own day better. But lot of kids who are constantly getting into trouble -- especially kids who are constantly being demeaned by one or more of the adults who are supposed to care for them -- actually sort of stop believing they have the power to be good. If you know you're bad and you think you're just going to get punished or yelled at or insulted at some point in the day anyway, why bother to even try following the rules?
I've personally seen it help a lot when I've reminded kids that they do have choices, and I believe in their ability to make a good one. Of course, each kid is different, so this may not work in your case. But I do think it's worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
posted by BlueJae at 8:35 AM on December 9, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm a mother and I would be pretty annoyed if you gave my kid candy. Why don't you switch to dried fruit and nuts - it's much healthier and the candy will make them hyper
posted by zia at 5:39 AM on December 10, 2011
posted by zia at 5:39 AM on December 10, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by decathecting at 9:16 PM on December 8, 2011 [6 favorites]