Broaching the awkward/weird topic of marriage and divorce

December 3, 2011 7:37 PM

I have a question about broaching the awkward/weird topic of marriage with my current SO. (Warning: I'm providing as much _anonymous_ backstory as I possibly can, please forgive any awkward grammar in view of this)

He/she is currently in a (very) separated situation from their ex; though the relationship with the ex is clearly amicable now, their breakup was clearly hard at the time. I don't want to get married now (we've not been together for what I consider to be "enough years", though we both have plenty friends who have certainly talked about it at the point we're at), I just want it to be on the table for the future, which is functionally impossible if they never get divorced!

Marriage is just something I want in my future, for social and economic reasons. We have an otherwise relatively communicative relationship, but this issue just seems significantly more awkward than sex/babies/housing/money/tummyaches/whatever talks. I don't feel like it's my place to push anyone to get a divorce, even if I'm in a relationship with them, and I don't want my interest in our future to be seen as pushy or manipulative, since it's really not. I just want to plan my future, and want my SO to be part of it. I've known they were (legally) married since the beginning, with no long term plan for divorce, but it didn't bother me then because...well, honestly, I didn't expect at the time to be this serious about our relationship as I've ended up being. I'm just not the type to assume from the outset that every relationship ends up with a forever tag, but I don't want this to preclude any possibility of an eventual friends n family celebration of our love and commitment. My other concern is, even if we manage to struggle past the "please get a divorce to make the possibility of marriage exist in this relationship", I'm concerned about how he/she will feel (possibly embarrassed?) about divorcing someone primarily in order to eventually marry someone else--assuming they are even interested! Of course I don't know if this will end up being a massive rejection/dealbreaker for them, destroying a perfectly good relationship because of my potentially very irrational concerns for the future. Marriage seems to mean something very different to those of us who have never done it before, and I'm worried that my interest will either be perceived as based off naive assumptions about partnerships from too many romance films, or actually is me jsut worrying about something that simply ISN'T THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

I just want to know: should I broach this topic at all? How/when? Should I wait for a "natural" time to bring it up (though, I don't know when that would be)? or should I just get over it and see if it turns me mad at some point (and re-evaluate the relationship then, I guess, though this option sounds unpleasant)? We have no plans to live together in the nearish future, if even ever at all, since cohabitation has separately proven difficult for us in past relationships/roommate situations; though, I will be moving much closer to them rather soon when my economic situation changes for the better (not a hope, but instead a very solid projection). I feel like I'm maybe making this a bigger deal than it needs to be, since I'm not saying "We better be married by New Years or I'm out!", so please let me know what you think.

posted by anonymous to human relations (21 answers total)

I don't consider it to be unreasonable that anyone you are dating seriously be *divorced from someone else* or at least plan to be eventually.
posted by pinky at 7:41 PM on December 3, 2011 [17 favorites]

Of COURSE you should broach the topic. If you can't communicate with this person, your relationship isn't heading marriage-ward anyway (one would hope). Surely you can clearly articulate that you are not pushing for marriage now at all, but you want to know whether a divorce is in the future or not. It's not unreasonable at all for you to want to know that.
posted by pupstocks at 7:54 PM on December 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

Unless you explicitly agreed to it from the beginning, it is completely unreasonable for your SO to expect you to wait INDEFINITELY for them to get divorced.

You don't say why they aren't divorced already, so I can't comment on whether or not those reasons make any sense. But I think you should absolutely be able to ask them for some kind of timeline on this, and to let them know that a (short) timeline is IMPORTANT to you, without being dismissed as naive or overly romantic. If they give you a hard time about it, then they're being ridiculous and unfair.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:57 PM on December 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

You are NOT saying "please divorce so you can marry me" You are saying, "I would like it if we had the option of getting married eventually. How do you feel?" This is a very reasonable conversation to be having - you want to understand what options are possible in your future and what options are closed off in this relationship. The ability to have this kind of conversation is so important to a successful relationship. If your partner shuts down just because you want to find out his/her intentions then you have a bigger problem. You are right not to make an ultimatum that you aren't committed to following through on. If the conversation goes well, you have a better understanding your partner and your options. Nothing says you have to break up with he/she doesn't want to divorce - that would be later decision for you to make once you know.

Also, your partner's decision to divorce is about what he/she wants from life (wanting you long-term more than continuing to be in a legal relationship with someone not cared about). You should not take this responsiblity on yourself - not only does it create needless guilt but it also undervalues your partner's self-determination.

Finally, wanting the possibility of all that comes with marriage to the person that you love (or at least having the legal and ethical symbolism of his/her terminating the previous marriage) is totally reasonable - do not discount your concerns as "not a big deal" or "not entitled to these feelings because I knew the marriage existed when I started"
posted by metahawk at 8:05 PM on December 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

I would not join the idea of your partner divorcing his ex with the idea of marrying you. I would however say "Look, I realise you're separated but I need you to know that as much as I love you, I am not willing to hang around forever with a married man and I need to know if you and Jill are planning to get to the paperwork."
posted by DarlingBri at 8:05 PM on December 3, 2011 [10 favorites]

I have broken up with multiple men in my past over the marriage issue (them wanting to marry and me not being ready). One of the things that I really wish they would have done is bring their desires up in the first year or so of the relationship.

The problem with the "I want to be the cool girlfriend who is super laid back and doesn't breath a word about marriage" is that it is near impossible to plan a life together if your partner doesn't know what you want your future to look like. There is nothing wrong with pulling the relationship vehicle over and seeing if all of the passenger are heading in the same direction.

Yes, it is a scary conversation to have sometimes, but if you want him to be in your future as a divorced man who may become your husband, he needs to know this. Not on the first date of course, but do not make the mistake of letting years go by without letting him know that you are "waiting". Secretly waiting for him to take the actions that you would like to see will do you no good.
posted by Shouraku at 8:06 PM on December 3, 2011 [17 favorites]

>> I've known they were (legally) married since the beginning, with no long term plan for divorce, but it didn't bother me then because... well, honestly, I didn't expect at the time to be this serious about our relationship as I've ended up being.

This is the crux of your question. The relationship has reached a point where you can't go forward until your SO goes forward. This is not about you two getting married... it's about where the relationship is at this exact minute.

At this exact minute, your relationship is on pause. You can't invest any more emotional energy because you don't know where he/she is.

>> Of course I don't know if this will end up being a massive rejection/dealbreaker for them, destroying a perfectly good relationship because of my potentially very irrational concerns for the future. ...I'm concerned about how he/she will feel (possibly embarrassed?) about divorcing someone

You need to get this out of your head. Your relationship is not "perfectly good." You are dating someone who is legally, financially, and likely emotionally bound to another person. You aren't in the wrong for wondering what comes next. You aren't being irrational.

If you calmly and fairly ask your SO about when s/he plans to leave the existing relationship in order to fully commit to yours, and s/he has a problem with that and feels embarrassed, that's not about you.

>> I just want to know: should I broach this topic at all? How/when?

Yes. When things are calm between you. You simply say it like it is. "Marriage is something that I want for my life one day. Not today, not tomorrow. But one day. And in my heart and head, I can't truly move toward that while you are still married to Ex. I don't say this to try and manipulate you, at all, and I'm not saying we have to make any changes today. But I want you to be aware that I am so happy with you, and that I also want to think about my future. I'd like you to be in that future, and one day we're going to have to figure out what that looks like and how your current marriage figures into it."

No pressure. No games. Just an honest communication that you are in this.... place. Let your SO know where your heart is, and then you go forward with that info on the table.

Because, from my own experience and that of many, many of my friends... the point actually does come where, when you want to be Married, to That One Person, and some external thing is blocking you from reaching that state, the frustration can spin the relationship apart into a million pieces. Sometimes fatally.

So stay honest, with yourself and with him/her. And don't feel irrational or pushy for wanting fair and accurate info about your own relationship. Whether it is intentional or not, your SO is in a position of power that affects your emotional life and you aren't a bad person for wanting to get that out in the open and on the table.
posted by pineapple at 8:06 PM on December 3, 2011 [16 favorites]

And you know, now that I think about it a few minutes more, an anecdote that might be relevant:

A friend of mine with two gradeschool-aged children, after having divorced her first husband, began dating another man about a year later. He was separated from his wife, but insisted that he couldn't get divorced "right now" for reasons that were never made entirely clear. My friend stayed in that relationship for NINE YEARS, until she had finally had enough and left him.

In an attempt to win her back, he immediately filed for divorce from his first wife. This had the opposite effect that he had intended, as it demonstrated how completely full of shit he'd been for the better part of a decade.

Please, please don't be my friend. It's been twenty years, and she's still pissed off about the whole thing.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:08 PM on December 3, 2011 [15 favorites]

You think this is different than the babies/money/living situation conversations but it's totally, totally not. Bring it up in the exact same way you did those things. You have a long history of communicating with this guy, and you say you're successful at it. Your position on the matter isn't even close to unreasonable. Just do it! In the long run, things will be OK as long as you actually confront the issue. Exactly like it is with the money conversation and everything else that comes with grown-up partnerships like this.

And yes, you're making a bigger deal out of this than you should. I think you might have some issues about his marriage that you haven't yet confronted fully, because it really fundamentally makes no sense to be able to have the babies conversation but not the "this is serious, you need to get on with the not married to another person thing already" conversation.
posted by SMPA at 8:49 PM on December 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

Your question was hard for me to read-- it actually made me feel powerfully sad for you. You sound literally scared off, like a beggar hoping from a few crumbs, instead of a grown person expecting reciprocity and a commitment from the person you love. You're trying to justify some pretty hard to justify behavior on your SO's part, and it pains me to read that you are so hesitant to bring this up.

So your SO's divorce was hard. That has nothing to do with the marriage you want to have. That is a problem from the past, and, most importantly, it's not YOUR baggage. While it's true there's a certain amount of emotional damage your SO will have, that is a totally separate issue from the SO being so unwilling to take legal steps to get a freaking divorce.

A person who isn't willing--maybe even eager--to extricate him or herself from a bad-news ex spouse in order to build a relationship with you isn't damaged from divorce. He/She is actively putting his former marriage ahead of a possible marriage with you. In that case, his/her past is more important than his/her future. It's not complicated. It's simple. The bs reasons don't matter.

Either you've been fooling yourself that your SO wants a serious future with you (has the SO said he/she does want to mary you someday, or actually hinted at the opposite?) or you've let the status quo go on too long. You're in a crazy situation. It makes no sense. No wonder it makes you so confused.

You must put this on the table ASAP and do yourself the favor of making a sincere emotional appeal (cry if you feel like it, speak from your heart, ask for what you need to feel safe). This isn't pushy or manipulative. It's just what's needed. Repeat again if it goes over somewhat well but your SO says a little bit more time is needed. Ultimatums won't work. Use feeling words. Don't be afraid of your emotions here-- they are a powerful guide, and should not be downplayed.

If you get a solid "No" as your answer, I'd walk.

PS If you're a woman, reading "Why Men Marry Some Women and Not Others" is crazy-helpful. It's science-based, and the statistical tables offered will really put your situation in perspective.
posted by devymetal at 9:29 PM on December 3, 2011 [11 favorites]

You have a right to know ASAP so that you can plan your life. Put yourself before any feelings of awkwardness. You don't want to be with this person for years and years and years only to discover they never had any intentions of marrying you.
posted by mleigh at 9:38 PM on December 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm so sorry we are again visiting this issue this week on the Green, regardless of your gender and your partner's gender.

You are worthy of the relationship you want. If your current partner is not even divorced... I'm so sorry. I believe they had no right to get anywhere near serious with you in the meantime. That's just not respectful.

I'm pretty sure this won't work out. Please Please be prepared. It could work out, but my gut tells me that it won't.

I was in a relationship with someone in this situation. I've been divorced and remarried. I'm telling you there is something super hinky here, and it is NOT in your favor.

I think you should find someone for a serious relationship who respects THEMSELVES enough to be free, legally and emotionally, before they get in deep with someone else.

By trying to be "cool" with this situation, you have put yourself at a grave disadvantage. This inequality won't end until you DTMFA.
posted by jbenben at 9:38 PM on December 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

After reading some of the above answers, and reading my own, I wonder if you are not in Los Angeles and dating my ex, who I rightly assume, is STILL married to his wife.

4 years ago when I finally dumped him to get married to my fabulous husband, he became a bit of a stalker and after 3+ years I had to finally change all of my phone numbers. I'm sure he was actively dating and creating new relationships during that time. I also know that like me, his ex wife limited his contact to her, although for some reason, she has not divorced him. My only explanation there is that I had high hopes and both she and he are WAY more fucked up as people than I could ever even conceive.

You think people you care for are automatically like you, but sometimes, not so much.
posted by jbenben at 9:52 PM on December 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

This isn't about him getting divorced primarily, it is about your and his/her potential to get married. You have no potential if one is still married. I would discuss your future in terms of you and her/him, not in terms of them and their legal spouse. Frame this as a discussion about your future together.

Apparently, right now, there is no incentive for your SO to get divorced. Find out if that includes him/her not wanting to be a position that he/she CAN marry you.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:12 PM on December 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

This isn't about him getting divorced primarily, it is about your and his/her potential to get married.

I disagree with this. I think it absolutely IS about him getting divorced primarily. OP, I think it's really unfortunate that you are embarrassed to ask the guy you are dating seriously to go ahead and get a divorce. It is fundamentally disrespectful to you, for him not to do that. You don't need a reason other than "I want the man I date not to be married to someone else." This kind of crap is so ridiculous when you consider all the things that competent, willfull adults manage to do -- write masterpieces, win public office, start and run businesses, raise wonderful kids, negotiate complex deals -- and your man can't even manage to GET A DIVORCE? Something a huge percentage of married people end up doing? Something you can be totally stupid and yet do anyway? It's pathetic. I would set a firm deadline for it to get done, and if he doesn't do it, DTMF.
posted by jayder at 7:08 AM on December 4, 2011 [5 favorites]

This question makes me feel so sad for you. You seem so scared of rocking the boat, of not feeling like you should pressure your partner, of whether even bringing up the subject is reasonable. But it's perfectly reasonable to expect your separated partner is planning on divorcing their spouse once they've begun dating other people (like you!). I'd give them up to a year from separating (and no longer living together) because of no-fault divorce stipulations in some jurisdictions. After a year is passed the divorce should be in motion: lawyers consulted and hired, papers filed, any remaining tangled affairs be untangled.

If they've been separated for more than a year (and I get the impression from your question that it's been considerably longer) then your partner needs to be crystal clear about why a divorce isn't in motion and what timeline exists for divorce. If they haven't presented a damn good reason about why things aren't even in motion yet–like Great Aunt Matilda's vast fortune will be theirs unless they get divorced–then it's time to seriously consider moving on.
posted by 6550 at 10:01 AM on December 4, 2011 [1 favorite]

You should explicitly tell your significant other everything you've just told a random assortment of internet users. Why would you spend years holding back from expressing your feelings about your relationship? Remember, many people wouldn't even go on one date with a married person, so you're well within the bounds of "normal" by not wanting to keep dating a married person for years -- let alone the fact that being "normal" is not as important as pursuing what you really want. If it turns out that your SO reacts badly to you expressing your feelings and bringing up these perfectly natural questions, that will be a sign that getting married to your SO, or event staying with your SO, might not be such a great idea anyway.

(To some of the other commenters: the OP has posted an intensely personal question and has clearly chosen not to reveal the gender of anyone involved. We should respect the OP's choice by not playing the gender guessing game, as fun as that game might be.)
posted by John Cohen at 11:32 AM on December 4, 2011 [2 favorites]

You have a legitimate question about the potential future which you should ask before you deepen the relationship by moving closer to your partner.

The fact that you are wondering where this relationship might be going is not a big deal. The fact that you think that just having a conversation about this might be a dealbreaker is.
posted by sm1tten at 12:01 PM on December 4, 2011

Yes you should broach the topic. It sounds like you have never discussed this with your partner, so you actually know how they will respond or what their reasons are for NOT getting divorced.

It may be something as stupid as money (divorces cost money, or possibly their finances are tied up in a house that they can't sell and neither one of them can afford to buy the other out). It may be because the state you live in requires couples to be separated for X amount of time to file for divorce, and they haven't or have only recently reached that expiration date.

Or it may be that the ex is having trouble making it final and your SO is a kind and loving person who doesn't want to cause the ex distress by making it final and is therefore avoiding hurting them (not realizing that it's hurting you....because you haven't told them). In which case, your SO needs to know that it IS becoming a problem so they can re-evaluate the situation.

Or it may be that your SO is unable to bring themself to end the marriage for reasons nothing to do with the ex (fear of severing an attachment, fear of alimony, fear of feeling like a failure, fear of conflict).

Or it may be that your SO is still in love with their ex.

You don't need to be ready for marriage for your SO's marriage (separated or not) to be a dealbreaker. Also, being OK with it in the beginning did not contractually oblige you to be OK with it for the end of time. Your relationship has developed and grown to the point where this marriage needs to be behind you, whether or not marriage is in your future or not. This is a good place to be--but maybe you need to open your SO's eyes to that.

Only you can decide if this is worth leaving your SO over, but you HAVE to at least talk to them about it. People make all kinds of compromises in life, but it takes two to compromise--they have to know that this is a problem for you, even if you are willing to live with it. Otherwise you're just letting them take advantage of you.
posted by elizeh at 1:32 PM on December 4, 2011

actually *don't* know how they will respond....
argh
posted by elizeh at 1:33 PM on December 4, 2011

You don't need to be ready for marriage for your SO's marriage (separated or not) to be a dealbreaker.

This.

Listen: your SO isn't "technically" married; your SO isn't "married but separated", your SO isn't "married but going to get divorced one of these days." Your SO is married. Not being married isn't the last step on the journey to marrying someone else; it is the very first step. It is step 0, it is the baseline, it is the point at which your SO becomes available for consideration as a prospective spouse.

At this point, your SO isn't a prospective spouse. Your SO is a spouse.

It doesn't seem to be that you want your SO to divorce their spouse so that you two can marry each other; you want them to be divorced so that you can COURT each other.

Your courtship has not yet begun.

You may find when you broach the subject that your SO is actually working as assiduously as possible on the divorce, and it's not my intention to cast aspersions on people who are still married because they are sitting out waiting periods and hammering out separation agreements and trying to make smart decisions about jointly held property. What I want to challenge here is your assumption that your SO's marital status isn't any of your business until you are actually ready for an engagement.
posted by endless_forms at 1:55 PM on December 4, 2011 [4 favorites]