Help in navigating drama on Facebook (and among friends/family) regarding personal beliefs on factory farming.
November 29, 2011 1:20 PM Subscribe
Help in navigating drama on Facebook (and among friends/family) regarding personal beliefs on factory farming.
I don't usually post status updates on Facebook, but was compelled to post a non-inflammatory remark on factory farms, simply urging people to read up on them and to learn more about free-range alternatives readily available at many of my local supermarkets. I was not pushing vegetarianism (I am not vegetarian) and did not post an inflammatory video or link. I felt what I said was really mild and non-offensive.
In response, several friends of mine went on for 150 comments (!!!) telling me they like tortured steaks, that I am "delusional about life," and that they don't "give a shit about animals."
Okay, well, maybe if these people were 16, I'd be able to brush it off, but these people are adults. I have encountered resistance from family, family-in-law, and friends about this issue, and the people who aren't extremely flippant and rude and just plain mean make excuse after excuse about why they can't buy free-range meat. My partner and I have been eating free-range meat for years now, and we are pretty poor. My "friends" won't listen to me and won't try to understand how they can make it work, and I really think it is because they don't "give a shit about animals."
Okay, well, I'm not really sure how to go about dealing with this. I have a hard time being close to people like this. The thing is, I do like spending time with them, but they're really not very nice to me sometimes, so maybe I should distance myself from them.
Should I block certain status-updates from these people? What about in-laws who keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no? (This really upsets me when they do this.)
It's all so childish, and I understand that maybe they feel threatened because it represents to them such a life change that they are not willing to make (although, like I've said, I've tried to explain to them how easy it can be, and mind you, these people do have the money...new phones all the time, new gadgets, Mercedes cars, etc.) Sure it's their money, they can spend it how they want, I'm just saying that they really have no excuse, compounded by the fact that they all say really cruel things, like the tortured steak comment above. (People like brother-in-law, sister-in-law, friends, etc).
I'm almost afraid to post this. Please if you don't care about animals in factory farms please to do not respond to bash me or make excuses for these people. That is not my question.
Thank you.
I don't usually post status updates on Facebook, but was compelled to post a non-inflammatory remark on factory farms, simply urging people to read up on them and to learn more about free-range alternatives readily available at many of my local supermarkets. I was not pushing vegetarianism (I am not vegetarian) and did not post an inflammatory video or link. I felt what I said was really mild and non-offensive.
In response, several friends of mine went on for 150 comments (!!!) telling me they like tortured steaks, that I am "delusional about life," and that they don't "give a shit about animals."
Okay, well, maybe if these people were 16, I'd be able to brush it off, but these people are adults. I have encountered resistance from family, family-in-law, and friends about this issue, and the people who aren't extremely flippant and rude and just plain mean make excuse after excuse about why they can't buy free-range meat. My partner and I have been eating free-range meat for years now, and we are pretty poor. My "friends" won't listen to me and won't try to understand how they can make it work, and I really think it is because they don't "give a shit about animals."
Okay, well, I'm not really sure how to go about dealing with this. I have a hard time being close to people like this. The thing is, I do like spending time with them, but they're really not very nice to me sometimes, so maybe I should distance myself from them.
Should I block certain status-updates from these people? What about in-laws who keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no? (This really upsets me when they do this.)
It's all so childish, and I understand that maybe they feel threatened because it represents to them such a life change that they are not willing to make (although, like I've said, I've tried to explain to them how easy it can be, and mind you, these people do have the money...new phones all the time, new gadgets, Mercedes cars, etc.) Sure it's their money, they can spend it how they want, I'm just saying that they really have no excuse, compounded by the fact that they all say really cruel things, like the tortured steak comment above. (People like brother-in-law, sister-in-law, friends, etc).
I'm almost afraid to post this. Please if you don't care about animals in factory farms please to do not respond to bash me or make excuses for these people. That is not my question.
Thank you.
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request - this didn't have to be this way folks.... -- jessamyn
I'll hide Facebook updates from certain people if I think they'll have something annoying to say about it. I'd probably de-friend anyone not related to me who called me "delusional" - if you feel that way about me, we aren't friends and we don't need to be on Facebook, get out of my life.
Beyond that, all you can do is live your life. If people don't want to make the same choices as you, you have to live and let live. Nobody likes to be nagged.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:25 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Beyond that, all you can do is live your life. If people don't want to make the same choices as you, you have to live and let live. Nobody likes to be nagged.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:25 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Ignore. Ignore ignore ignore. You're not changing anyone's mind, and you know it, so do not bring it up again, because that can only have bad effects. If you get offered factory-farmed meat, smile and say no thanks, without mentioning why. If they make more taunting remarks, continue to say "no thanks" or shrug and say "ok", but nothing else. Ignore Ignore Ignore.
posted by brainmouse at 1:26 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 1:26 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I do like spending time with them, but they're really not very nice to me sometimes, so maybe I should distance myself from them.
Yes. There is your answer.
posted by amicamentis at 1:26 PM on November 29, 2011 [12 favorites]
Yes. There is your answer.
posted by amicamentis at 1:26 PM on November 29, 2011 [12 favorites]
In response, several friends of mine went on for 150 comments (!!!) telling me they like tortured steaks, that I am "delusional about life," and that they don't "give a shit about animals."
One's age and level of responsibility -- the measurement by which you seem to be defining adulthood -- doesn't grant one the ability to not be a dick, and loud about it at that.
Remove them from your feed or, the nuclear option de-friend them. Who needs updates from friends like that? You can get your cat pictures and complaints about Mondays from someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to ridicule you.
People keep offering you meat you won't eat? Say "no, thank you" and keep going. Trying to go blow-for-blow with people who get off on antagonizing you (if that is, in fact, what is happening) is pointless. Like the old adage about wrestling a pig in the mud: you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. Don't put yourself into situations you don't want to be in, and if you are, by the Laws of Family or whatever, forced, just be cool. "No, thank you." "No, thank you." "No, thank you."
posted by griphus at 1:27 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
One's age and level of responsibility -- the measurement by which you seem to be defining adulthood -- doesn't grant one the ability to not be a dick, and loud about it at that.
Remove them from your feed or, the nuclear option de-friend them. Who needs updates from friends like that? You can get your cat pictures and complaints about Mondays from someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to ridicule you.
People keep offering you meat you won't eat? Say "no, thank you" and keep going. Trying to go blow-for-blow with people who get off on antagonizing you (if that is, in fact, what is happening) is pointless. Like the old adage about wrestling a pig in the mud: you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. Don't put yourself into situations you don't want to be in, and if you are, by the Laws of Family or whatever, forced, just be cool. "No, thank you." "No, thank you." "No, thank you."
posted by griphus at 1:27 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Are they only like this on this one issue? Then I'd just not bring it up again. If they're like this on other issues, but only on Facebook, I'd just not use Facebook, or block them all. If they're like this on real life, you need another AskMe next week.
posted by desjardins at 1:28 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 1:28 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
My "friends" won't listen to me and won't try to understand how they can make it work, and I really think it is because they don't "give a shit about animals."
This made me pause. You may think you are not being preachy, but the recipients of your efforts may feel differently. If this subject is so important to you, why are you friends with people who don't give a shit about animals?
Put another way, I have a bunch of crazy relatives who are on the opposite end of the politcal spectrum. We all know where we all stand, and when we see each other we tend to just agree to disagree and talk about other stuff. Have you tried this tactic? Drop the factory farming talk and just talk about other stuff, and if people try to engage, just change the subject. Be a grownup, and take the high road.
posted by ambrosia at 1:29 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
This made me pause. You may think you are not being preachy, but the recipients of your efforts may feel differently. If this subject is so important to you, why are you friends with people who don't give a shit about animals?
Put another way, I have a bunch of crazy relatives who are on the opposite end of the politcal spectrum. We all know where we all stand, and when we see each other we tend to just agree to disagree and talk about other stuff. Have you tried this tactic? Drop the factory farming talk and just talk about other stuff, and if people try to engage, just change the subject. Be a grownup, and take the high road.
posted by ambrosia at 1:29 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: If you don't want people responding negatively to this, then stop bringing it up. They obviously don't want to hear about it.
Nobody likes to be nagged.
Often times it's not me bringing it up such as when they have a fork with meat on it and direct it to my mouth laughing about how it is tortured.
posted by DeltaForce at 1:29 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Nobody likes to be nagged.
Often times it's not me bringing it up such as when they have a fork with meat on it and direct it to my mouth laughing about how it is tortured.
posted by DeltaForce at 1:29 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, and if you make it a habit of trying to explain to people how they have "no excuse" to eat whatever meat they like, cut that shit out. If you've told them once and they're not even a little bit open, you're doing nothing but sowing the seeds of your own drama. They're not gonna eat what you want them to eat. You're not gonna eat what they offer you. Case closed.
posted by griphus at 1:30 PM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by griphus at 1:30 PM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
OK, so they do that, and you continue to be the bigger person, and smile and say "no thanks". What's the point of having any other response?
posted by brainmouse at 1:30 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 1:30 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Fundamentally, I feel like people don't like being told what's best for them. This can result in the sort of backlash you saw. Either filter out the people you know will be mad about these sorts of updates (this is what I do with my fundamental christian family), don't be friends with them, or don't post about it if you don't want to deal with drama.
posted by Zophi at 1:31 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Zophi at 1:31 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Often times it's not me bringing it up such as when they have a fork with meat on it and direct it to my mouth laughing about how it is tortured.
You get up and you leave. Seriously, either you are bothering them with Meat Issues a lot more often than you let on, your these are horrible people and why even share a table with them?
posted by griphus at 1:31 PM on November 29, 2011 [27 favorites]
You get up and you leave. Seriously, either you are bothering them with Meat Issues a lot more often than you let on, your these are horrible people and why even share a table with them?
posted by griphus at 1:31 PM on November 29, 2011 [27 favorites]
Yeah, I would never post something like this on Facebook. I care about animals and buy factory famed meat. Maybe I don't care about them enough and some would say I would not eat meat if Ireally cared about animals and animal cruelty.
You can't convince people until they are ready. I work in an area where we are encouraged to talk to people about smoking and tobacco use. The number one rule -- give them some information, ask them about their smoking in a non-judgmental way, but don't counsel further until they are ready. Don't ya know it's so easy to chew nicotine gum? Don't ya know that it's not that hard to go to smoking cessation class? Don't ya know that smoking causes lung cancer and you are going to die a horrible and agonizing death? They know this. We know factory farming is cruel.
posted by Fairchild at 1:32 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
You can't convince people until they are ready. I work in an area where we are encouraged to talk to people about smoking and tobacco use. The number one rule -- give them some information, ask them about their smoking in a non-judgmental way, but don't counsel further until they are ready. Don't ya know it's so easy to chew nicotine gum? Don't ya know that it's not that hard to go to smoking cessation class? Don't ya know that smoking causes lung cancer and you are going to die a horrible and agonizing death? They know this. We know factory farming is cruel.
posted by Fairchild at 1:32 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
If your "friends" don't give a shit about something that's obviously very important to you morally and ethically, and "they're not very nice to [you] sometimes," why on earth are they still your friends? Look, it's not uncommon for friends to not share 100% of their values with one another, but you've described a situation that sounds untenable. I'm not compatible, friend-wise, with people who believe that women sometimes deserve to be hit. Not gonna happen. Fundamental disconnect.
Now, you can't really break up with your family or your in-laws, so I recommend questioning their motives carefully and turning their questions around. When they "keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no," ask them plainly, "Why is it funny to you to make me uncomfortable?" It sounds like they do it specifically to annoy you because you keep harping on it yourself, in which case, you need to stop. It's okay to tell your family, "I feel bad when you pick on me like that, and I don't deserve it. Knock it off." It's okay to leave the room, or the party, if they don't stop.
posted by juniperesque at 1:33 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Now, you can't really break up with your family or your in-laws, so I recommend questioning their motives carefully and turning their questions around. When they "keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no," ask them plainly, "Why is it funny to you to make me uncomfortable?" It sounds like they do it specifically to annoy you because you keep harping on it yourself, in which case, you need to stop. It's okay to tell your family, "I feel bad when you pick on me like that, and I don't deserve it. Knock it off." It's okay to leave the room, or the party, if they don't stop.
posted by juniperesque at 1:33 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Let me clarify something: How many Facebook status posts did you do about factory farming?
Because if you did more than one, I'd stop, and then sit tight until the idiots get their yuks out and then it will blow over.
But if you only did one, and they're all STILL acting like idiots about it, I'd point out, politely but firmly, that you've respected their opinions by dropping it, and you wish they would too, and if they can't respect your opinions by dropping it then you will have to end the conversation/visit/whatever. (Because that "oooh, have some tortured steak!" stuff is just ridiculous, and you shouldn't put up with it.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:35 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Because if you did more than one, I'd stop, and then sit tight until the idiots get their yuks out and then it will blow over.
But if you only did one, and they're all STILL acting like idiots about it, I'd point out, politely but firmly, that you've respected their opinions by dropping it, and you wish they would too, and if they can't respect your opinions by dropping it then you will have to end the conversation/visit/whatever. (Because that "oooh, have some tortured steak!" stuff is just ridiculous, and you shouldn't put up with it.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:35 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You have to stop talking about this. In all circumstances when it comes up, shut your mouth and smile and change the subject.
I'm vegan and, with the exception of one friend, everyone else I know eats meat. The way I deal with this is to not talk about it. The best way I feel that I can be an ambassador for my beliefs is to make delicious cruelty-free food for my friends, period. I have no expectations that I will change anyone's mind, but I can at least demonstrate to them that a cupcake can be delicious without eggs and butter.
I could get into an argument with you about why non-factory farmed meat is still cruel. But I won't, and the reason I won't is because it's really none of my business what you choose to put in your body. You are making personal choices based on a set of principles you believe in, and the people around you don't have to share those principles to be your friend. You've been very outspoken on this issue in the past and that has encouraged people to bait you on the subject. Once you stop talking about it, their annoying behaviors will most likely stop.
posted by something something at 1:38 PM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
I'm vegan and, with the exception of one friend, everyone else I know eats meat. The way I deal with this is to not talk about it. The best way I feel that I can be an ambassador for my beliefs is to make delicious cruelty-free food for my friends, period. I have no expectations that I will change anyone's mind, but I can at least demonstrate to them that a cupcake can be delicious without eggs and butter.
I could get into an argument with you about why non-factory farmed meat is still cruel. But I won't, and the reason I won't is because it's really none of my business what you choose to put in your body. You are making personal choices based on a set of principles you believe in, and the people around you don't have to share those principles to be your friend. You've been very outspoken on this issue in the past and that has encouraged people to bait you on the subject. Once you stop talking about it, their annoying behaviors will most likely stop.
posted by something something at 1:38 PM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
I think this kind of response goes beyond just not being interested and feeling nagged, and encroaches on the territory of actively being an asshole to you. I have some pretty strident views on things like this too, and though there are plenty of people on my feed who respectfully disagree or simply ignore, anybody that blasted me would be pretty much blocked, if not de-friended. I don't care what the issue is -if you can't respond respectfully, then you're out of here.
It sounds like you might want to develop more friends who live and think like you do. I'd have gone nuts long ago if I didn't have a crunchy/hippie/foodie community IRL and on FB to swap articles and recipes with, clue each other in about farmer's markets and new products, etc. In my view it's more fun to work on the 'building' side of this issue than the 'tearing down' side. I do think it's fine to talk to people about how easy it is to eat better, but really, living well is the bestrevenge proselytizing. Post pictures of your incredible meals with their farm sources; post pictures of events and markets that you go to. Make friends with people who run them and "like" pages that support stuff you support.
And when someone tries to get your goat, ignore them if you value the relationship - block them if you can't ignore them - and seriously, de-friend people who are actively assholes to you. I wouldn't dangle bacon in front of a kosher friend's mouth or bread in front of a gluten-free person's. The behavior is just plain rude - they want to get a rise out of you and take you down a notch. It's not motivated by caring or sympathy - so don't let it into your life.
posted by Miko at 1:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you might want to develop more friends who live and think like you do. I'd have gone nuts long ago if I didn't have a crunchy/hippie/foodie community IRL and on FB to swap articles and recipes with, clue each other in about farmer's markets and new products, etc. In my view it's more fun to work on the 'building' side of this issue than the 'tearing down' side. I do think it's fine to talk to people about how easy it is to eat better, but really, living well is the best
And when someone tries to get your goat, ignore them if you value the relationship - block them if you can't ignore them - and seriously, de-friend people who are actively assholes to you. I wouldn't dangle bacon in front of a kosher friend's mouth or bread in front of a gluten-free person's. The behavior is just plain rude - they want to get a rise out of you and take you down a notch. It's not motivated by caring or sympathy - so don't let it into your life.
posted by Miko at 1:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: How many Facebook status posts did you do about factory farming?
Yeah, it was just once. And for the people saying that I am harping, I am not. Please do not assume that I am nagging or telling people how to live all the time. When it comes up, I rationally explain my point of view, show them alternatives, and am seriously met with nothing but callousness. Some of these people actively abuse pets (not that I think doing so is any more wrong than factory farms.) I guess these people just don't care about animals, and I have a hard time respecting people who are cruel or support cruelty. So yeah, I guess my answer is to find people who agree with me that I can be close to.
That comes across as narrow-minded to me, but oh well.
posted by DeltaForce at 1:39 PM on November 29, 2011
Yeah, it was just once. And for the people saying that I am harping, I am not. Please do not assume that I am nagging or telling people how to live all the time. When it comes up, I rationally explain my point of view, show them alternatives, and am seriously met with nothing but callousness. Some of these people actively abuse pets (not that I think doing so is any more wrong than factory farms.) I guess these people just don't care about animals, and I have a hard time respecting people who are cruel or support cruelty. So yeah, I guess my answer is to find people who agree with me that I can be close to.
That comes across as narrow-minded to me, but oh well.
posted by DeltaForce at 1:39 PM on November 29, 2011
I don't usually post status updates on Facebook, but was compelled to post...
With respect, there is absolutely nothing that "compels" anyone to post anything anywhere. Anytime you feel compelled to argue on the internet, step outside and take a break.
Obviously you feel passionate about this particular issue, as everyone does with their own pet issue. If you can't stand people's reactions to this particular issue, then don't post about it.
posted by modernnomad at 1:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
With respect, there is absolutely nothing that "compels" anyone to post anything anywhere. Anytime you feel compelled to argue on the internet, step outside and take a break.
Obviously you feel passionate about this particular issue, as everyone does with their own pet issue. If you can't stand people's reactions to this particular issue, then don't post about it.
posted by modernnomad at 1:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
Your status update sounds fine and not overly preachy at all. I say keep on making the status updates you want, and ignore the childishness and assholeness.
One thing I have noticed from childhood is that many people get SUPER defensive and antagonistic towards you, when they know you are trying to act in a way that's more morally sound, and it's something they don't do themselves. Even if you don't say a single word to them or preach about it at all.
I became a vegetarian at 10, in a mostly blue collar, traditional Italian-American family. You can imagine how that went. I never preached to anyone about vegetarianism, just didn't want to eat meat myself. I heard it all. I was rudely told to "grow up" by my own grandmother, after SHE ASKED why I was a vegetarian and I told her. My mom physically tried to force me to eat things I didn't want to eat.
Now after about a decade and a half of just letting people see me live my life as a happy and healthy vegetarian and not preaching about it to everyone, and now being the only person in my family who is not overweight, MY MOM has become a vegetarian.
Just keep doing what you do. I think people will come around.
posted by cairdeas at 1:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
One thing I have noticed from childhood is that many people get SUPER defensive and antagonistic towards you, when they know you are trying to act in a way that's more morally sound, and it's something they don't do themselves. Even if you don't say a single word to them or preach about it at all.
I became a vegetarian at 10, in a mostly blue collar, traditional Italian-American family. You can imagine how that went. I never preached to anyone about vegetarianism, just didn't want to eat meat myself. I heard it all. I was rudely told to "grow up" by my own grandmother, after SHE ASKED why I was a vegetarian and I told her. My mom physically tried to force me to eat things I didn't want to eat.
Now after about a decade and a half of just letting people see me live my life as a happy and healthy vegetarian and not preaching about it to everyone, and now being the only person in my family who is not overweight, MY MOM has become a vegetarian.
Just keep doing what you do. I think people will come around.
posted by cairdeas at 1:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Yeah, you need friends who share your values or at least aren't dicks.
posted by desjardins at 1:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 1:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I will also say that in the year or so since I've become vegan, I've noticed that a lot of people are shockingly outspoken and graphic about how they love to murder animals. I don't know what the reason is, except maybe defensiveness about eating habits they know are probably not the best idea. But what I've learned is that people who say things like the "tortured steak" dude you referenced are really pretty common, and are absolutely not worth engaging with.
posted by something something at 1:42 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by something something at 1:42 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Some of these people actively abuse pets...
Jesus christ your first priority is to find human beings to hang out with, never mind ones that share your views on whatever.
posted by griphus at 1:44 PM on November 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
Jesus christ your first priority is to find human beings to hang out with, never mind ones that share your views on whatever.
posted by griphus at 1:44 PM on November 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
It's not narrow-minded to decide not to be friends with people who torture their pets and actively disrespect you. By all means, be friends with lots of people who disagree with you about lots of different issues. Have conversations with your friends about issues on which you disagree, and make mutual efforts to understand one another's point of view. Just don't be friends with jerks.
posted by decathecting at 1:44 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 1:44 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
When it comes up, I rationally explain my point of view, show them alternatives
Does this happen a lot outside of Facebook? I have a friend who harps on about certain things at the first opening in any conversation tangentially related to it and it's annoying, and I even agree with her position.
posted by chiababe at 1:45 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Does this happen a lot outside of Facebook? I have a friend who harps on about certain things at the first opening in any conversation tangentially related to it and it's annoying, and I even agree with her position.
posted by chiababe at 1:45 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
I don't particularly care too much about where my delicious meat comes from, tbh. That said, these people are being huge fucking dickheads to you for their own lulz and you have no reason to engage with them. Ethical beliefs aside, why waste time and attention on people who are treating you like shit?
posted by elizardbits at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
When it comes up, I rationally explain my point of view, show them alternatives, and am seriously met with nothing but callousness. Some of these people actively abuse pets (not that I think doing so is any more wrong than factory farms.)
Whoa, I missed your update before I replied. To me this is something different. These aren't people who just want to be willfully ignorant and closedminded. If they're abusing pets, these are people with something seriously wrong with them. You can't successfully appeal to the compassion of people who don't have compassion. If I were you I would cut my losses and ditch these people, and report the animal abuse without hesitation.
posted by cairdeas at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Whoa, I missed your update before I replied. To me this is something different. These aren't people who just want to be willfully ignorant and closedminded. If they're abusing pets, these are people with something seriously wrong with them. You can't successfully appeal to the compassion of people who don't have compassion. If I were you I would cut my losses and ditch these people, and report the animal abuse without hesitation.
posted by cairdeas at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
griphus nailed this right on. Either they suck at being human or you're a nag. Since you're not a nag, I think you're in the market for some new friends. Actually, even if you are a nag, you should get some other friends who either share your views or don't mind talking about them.
DTMF'ersA
posted by Aizkolari at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
DTMF'ersA
posted by Aizkolari at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Some of these people actively abuse pets (not that I think doing so is any more wrong than factory farms.) I guess these people just don't care about animals, and I have a hard time respecting people who are cruel or support cruelty.
If this is really the case, drop them like a the nasty pieces of shit that they are and get new friends. Seriously.
posted by ambrosia at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
If this is really the case, drop them like a the nasty pieces of shit that they are and get new friends. Seriously.
posted by ambrosia at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
When it comes up, I rationally explain my point of view, show them alternatives, and am seriously met with nothing but callousness.
I'm afraid that maybe dialing it back even further may be called for, depending what you mean by "when it comes up" and "show them alternatives." Because even here there are gradations:
Situation A:
"Say, Delta, are you still doing that looney no-tortured meat thing?"
"Well, yes, I prefer to look for meat that humanely treated."
"Yeah, I bet you shop in those hippie grocery stores for it."
"Actually, I've seen it in supermarkets. I also think it tastes better too; 'Garden Farms' is a brand I've tried, and it's especially good. I actualy brought some if you want to check it out, it's on the red plate there."
"Well, my tortured burger here tastes just fine, here, try some! Haw haw!"
Situation B:
"So, everyone, welcome to the barbecue, we've got some burgers, some hot dogs, and some Boca Burgers."
"And I brought some burgers too, that weren't from factory farms."
"Uh...right. Thanks."
"Really, they're on the blue plate over there by the grill."
"Cool. I'll throw a few on."
"Really they're good, because --"
"Got it, thanks."
I'll admit that Situation B is a little exaggerated for clarity, but you see the difference between them, yes? I'm not suggesting you actually are DOING anything like situation B, but you may want to think about how close you may be coming TO situation B.
Of course, if you're not, and you're more like Situation A, then it's just that the people you're dealing with are a bunch of idiots. In which case:
I guess these people just don't care about animals, and I have a hard time respecting people who are cruel or support cruelty. So yeah, I guess my answer is to find people who agree with me that I can be close to. That comes across as narrow-minded to me, but oh well.
There is nothing "Narrow-minded" about not wanting to have a relationship people who have values that you actively dislike.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:49 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm afraid that maybe dialing it back even further may be called for, depending what you mean by "when it comes up" and "show them alternatives." Because even here there are gradations:
Situation A:
"Say, Delta, are you still doing that looney no-tortured meat thing?"
"Well, yes, I prefer to look for meat that humanely treated."
"Yeah, I bet you shop in those hippie grocery stores for it."
"Actually, I've seen it in supermarkets. I also think it tastes better too; 'Garden Farms' is a brand I've tried, and it's especially good. I actualy brought some if you want to check it out, it's on the red plate there."
"Well, my tortured burger here tastes just fine, here, try some! Haw haw!"
Situation B:
"So, everyone, welcome to the barbecue, we've got some burgers, some hot dogs, and some Boca Burgers."
"And I brought some burgers too, that weren't from factory farms."
"Uh...right. Thanks."
"Really, they're on the blue plate over there by the grill."
"Cool. I'll throw a few on."
"Really they're good, because --"
"Got it, thanks."
I'll admit that Situation B is a little exaggerated for clarity, but you see the difference between them, yes? I'm not suggesting you actually are DOING anything like situation B, but you may want to think about how close you may be coming TO situation B.
Of course, if you're not, and you're more like Situation A, then it's just that the people you're dealing with are a bunch of idiots. In which case:
I guess these people just don't care about animals, and I have a hard time respecting people who are cruel or support cruelty. So yeah, I guess my answer is to find people who agree with me that I can be close to. That comes across as narrow-minded to me, but oh well.
There is nothing "Narrow-minded" about not wanting to have a relationship people who have values that you actively dislike.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:49 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
I would never stop posting about something I cared passionately about because my "Facebook friends" were bothered by it. As long as you're not in-your-face about it, keep right on posting. If they can't handle it, let them be the ones to work the "Ignore" levers, not you.
DeltaForce: "What about in-laws who keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no?"
Ignore the specifics of this issue for a sec. If you're in a committed relationship and your in-laws act rudely to your face, your partner needs to step up. If not a direct confrontation with the in-laws, then certainly a public show of solidarity with you.
posted by mkultra at 1:49 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
DeltaForce: "What about in-laws who keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no?"
Ignore the specifics of this issue for a sec. If you're in a committed relationship and your in-laws act rudely to your face, your partner needs to step up. If not a direct confrontation with the in-laws, then certainly a public show of solidarity with you.
posted by mkultra at 1:49 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
So yeah, I guess my answer is to find people who agree with me that I can be close to.
Another answer is to be friends with people who aren't assholes, even if you don't agree on everything. I have friends and acquaintances on fb who I don't agree with on every issue, and I know they don't agree with me on everything, and yet somehow we refrain from being complete a-holes to each other when someone posts something that someone else doesn't like. Me, I roll my eyes, and move on to the next post.
posted by rtha at 1:50 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Another answer is to be friends with people who aren't assholes, even if you don't agree on everything. I have friends and acquaintances on fb who I don't agree with on every issue, and I know they don't agree with me on everything, and yet somehow we refrain from being complete a-holes to each other when someone posts something that someone else doesn't like. Me, I roll my eyes, and move on to the next post.
posted by rtha at 1:50 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
One thing I have noticed from childhood is that many people get SUPER defensive and antagonistic towards you, when they know you are trying to act in a way that's more morally sound,
This could be the case, but for me its more often something that I've been preached to about before. Likely it wasn't you that preached to me, but my defenses are already up.
As an example, just TRY to explain to me again why people shouldn't vaccinate their kids. That's completely common where I live and as soon as it comes out of someone's mouth, even if it's the first time they've said it to me, I am already so sensitized and aggravated by the militant anti-vac crowd that the very most civilized thing I can manage to do is nod my head and say, "well, we're in disagreement there, but let's not get into THAT whole discussion right this minute! Let's talk about cat declawing instead?" (only not cat declawing).
posted by small_ruminant at 1:51 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
This could be the case, but for me its more often something that I've been preached to about before. Likely it wasn't you that preached to me, but my defenses are already up.
As an example, just TRY to explain to me again why people shouldn't vaccinate their kids. That's completely common where I live and as soon as it comes out of someone's mouth, even if it's the first time they've said it to me, I am already so sensitized and aggravated by the militant anti-vac crowd that the very most civilized thing I can manage to do is nod my head and say, "well, we're in disagreement there, but let's not get into THAT whole discussion right this minute! Let's talk about cat declawing instead?" (only not cat declawing).
posted by small_ruminant at 1:51 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
From your description it sounds like you have been a bit overbearing and aggressive in pushing this subject on them in the past, and now any time you bring it up they're reminded of that experience and so use it as an opportunity to take the piss out of you. I respect my friends for believing passionately about their causes. If I had one who not only believed passionately about their cause, but constantly tried to convert me to it and steamroll over my reasons why I wasn't interested and not just let the subject go, I would be pretty annoyed at that friend.
The way they tease you about it is immature, absolutely. And if you want to keep posting status updates without them, then block them. But understand if you're going to portray the issue as "Either you eat like me or you hate animals and want to watch them die" to your friends and think that they genuinely want to see cows tortured, then people are going to push back.
posted by Anonymous at 2:07 PM on November 29, 2011
The way they tease you about it is immature, absolutely. And if you want to keep posting status updates without them, then block them. But understand if you're going to portray the issue as "Either you eat like me or you hate animals and want to watch them die" to your friends and think that they genuinely want to see cows tortured, then people are going to push back.
posted by Anonymous at 2:07 PM on November 29, 2011
Honestly, I am shocked that people would respond that way to you. From your post, you seem to have a pretty rational view about your beliefs and how you present them, and these people are showing no respect for you.
As far as FB goes, block, ignore, or set it up so they can't see your own status updates/posts. (I have one relative who would be offended if I defriended her, so I set it up so she couldn't see my wall.)
For the people who are taunting you, don't take their shit. Next time somebody waves a fork in front of your face, look them dead in the eye and say something like, "You are my [mother/friend/etc] and I respect you and your beliefs. I would really appreciate you showing the same respect to me."
posted by DoubleLune at 2:07 PM on November 29, 2011
As far as FB goes, block, ignore, or set it up so they can't see your own status updates/posts. (I have one relative who would be offended if I defriended her, so I set it up so she couldn't see my wall.)
For the people who are taunting you, don't take their shit. Next time somebody waves a fork in front of your face, look them dead in the eye and say something like, "You are my [mother/friend/etc] and I respect you and your beliefs. I would really appreciate you showing the same respect to me."
posted by DoubleLune at 2:07 PM on November 29, 2011
No post on your facebook page would go on for 150 comments unless you are repeatedly playing along/feeding the trolls/pushing their buttons/etc.
I am a vegetarian (and an atheist, and a liberal, and a middle child), and although my collection of facebook friends is populated with its share of absolute assholes and people who I vehemently disagree with on most issues, I haven't been mocked & tormented for my beliefs since I was a very earnest, very opinionated teenager. It's not that I'm hanging with a higher caliber of person -- my high school friends, college friends, and family members are among my facebook friends -- it's that I have matured in the way I present my point of view.
If someone wants to hijack your posts, just delete the posts, delete their comments, or delete the facebook friend altogether.
posted by headnsouth at 2:13 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
I am a vegetarian (and an atheist, and a liberal, and a middle child), and although my collection of facebook friends is populated with its share of absolute assholes and people who I vehemently disagree with on most issues, I haven't been mocked & tormented for my beliefs since I was a very earnest, very opinionated teenager. It's not that I'm hanging with a higher caliber of person -- my high school friends, college friends, and family members are among my facebook friends -- it's that I have matured in the way I present my point of view.
If someone wants to hijack your posts, just delete the posts, delete their comments, or delete the facebook friend altogether.
posted by headnsouth at 2:13 PM on November 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Something I have noticed about myself - I get very defensive and guilty and sometimes go on the attack when I know that someone is doing something I feel like I should maybe do. Are they contributing more to their retirement account? jogging every day? writing a weekly letter to a political prisoner? I get defensive, no matter how nice they're being. And I have in the past acted like a jerk.
Something else I've observed about groups - they police their borders by defining an outside or an "outsider within". Sometimes this is even a little positive: "oh, Jimmy here is our token bike rider, you should totally ask him!" It's quite possible that these folks aren't being "defensive"; they're actively constructing the group (unconsciously) as "a place where we aren't all hippie-dippie and sensitive-about-stuff. And it's possible that this is gendered - if the leaders of the group like to think of themselves as manly men or are the kind of women who are always complaining about how other women are too sensitive (what we used to call 'male-identified women'), they may be unconsciously positioning you as a feminized other.
If you feel like this "meat-hating hippie your so sensitive take that LOL" routine is part of a larger pattern, can you dial back your engagement with some of these friends over time? Maybe engage only with the less-jerky ones?
There are certain social improvement things that involve daily, moderate effort - ie, biking rather than driving short commutes, being vegan, eating organic - things that are realistic but a little stretch for many people, not things that are totally unrealistic for the majority like making all your own clothes or eating only fruit you've grown yourself. When these things come up - and I think this thread bears me out - there is this social tendency to assume that even mentioning this stuff is pushy or moralistic, and that it's okay to be aggressively hostile towards the people who do it, even if they're being nice about it. And in a sense that's true - you're witnessing with your life that animal suffering is not needed. That makes lots of folks very uncomfortable because it ruptures the sort of "we all agree to either moral conformity or silence" agreement that groups (all groups) tend to develop.
If I were you, I'd withdraw from the more obnoxious of these folks a bit and (assuming that you're being matter-of-fact about what you do) just carry on. Adults need to learn two thought processes: "Aha, a morally challenging issue - I will decide if I need to change my ways!" and "Aha, someone has different moral standards than I do; I can accept and engage with this rather than ignoring or attacking it".
.
posted by Frowner at 2:18 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Something else I've observed about groups - they police their borders by defining an outside or an "outsider within". Sometimes this is even a little positive: "oh, Jimmy here is our token bike rider, you should totally ask him!" It's quite possible that these folks aren't being "defensive"; they're actively constructing the group (unconsciously) as "a place where we aren't all hippie-dippie and sensitive-about-stuff. And it's possible that this is gendered - if the leaders of the group like to think of themselves as manly men or are the kind of women who are always complaining about how other women are too sensitive (what we used to call 'male-identified women'), they may be unconsciously positioning you as a feminized other.
If you feel like this "meat-hating hippie your so sensitive take that LOL" routine is part of a larger pattern, can you dial back your engagement with some of these friends over time? Maybe engage only with the less-jerky ones?
There are certain social improvement things that involve daily, moderate effort - ie, biking rather than driving short commutes, being vegan, eating organic - things that are realistic but a little stretch for many people, not things that are totally unrealistic for the majority like making all your own clothes or eating only fruit you've grown yourself. When these things come up - and I think this thread bears me out - there is this social tendency to assume that even mentioning this stuff is pushy or moralistic, and that it's okay to be aggressively hostile towards the people who do it, even if they're being nice about it. And in a sense that's true - you're witnessing with your life that animal suffering is not needed. That makes lots of folks very uncomfortable because it ruptures the sort of "we all agree to either moral conformity or silence" agreement that groups (all groups) tend to develop.
If I were you, I'd withdraw from the more obnoxious of these folks a bit and (assuming that you're being matter-of-fact about what you do) just carry on. Adults need to learn two thought processes: "Aha, a morally challenging issue - I will decide if I need to change my ways!" and "Aha, someone has different moral standards than I do; I can accept and engage with this rather than ignoring or attacking it".
.
posted by Frowner at 2:18 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's all so childish, and I understand that maybe they feel threatened because it represents to them such a life change that they are not willing to make (although, like I've said, I've tried to explain to them how easy it can be, and mind you, these people do have the money...new phones all the time, new gadgets, Mercedes cars, etc.)
You sound like a 1) condescending 2) judgemental, 3) evangelist. No one likes those. This is the age of the internet: if people want information on a subject, they can get it themselves. How do you think you would react to someone who had very different values to you, who was constantly posting things like this about an issue you were on the other side of, for the benefit of your "moral education", and setting themselves up as your moral superior?
It's all so childish, and I understand that maybe they feel threatened because it represents to them such a life change that they are not willing to make
No, they're annoyed because you are setting yourself up as:
- an adult to their children
- a morally sound ("good") person to their benighted, unenlighted ("bad") selves
- a brave warrior for truth and justice vs selfish cowards
Plus, from what you say in the OP, this is something you've done repeatedly. On more than one occasion. This all seems, honestly, more about you seeing yourself as a crusader than actually helping the "cause". Your ostensible purpose in this behavior is to raise awareness or win converts to your beliefs, but it's very obviously not working. I assume you're smart enough to realize that, so now the task before you is to figure out why you keep beating the dead horse. What are you getting out of this behavior that compels you to repeat it? You can choose to distance yourselves from them, but there are tons of people who are effective advocates for animal rights and still manage to get along with their friends and family who eat factory farmed meat. This will keep happening over and over and over again to you, until you figure out how not to be a condescending jerk about your beliefs. There is no perfect refuge of like-minded, ideologically pure people that will keep you from having to learn how to handle disagreement with grace.
DoubleLune: For the people who are taunting you, don't take their shit. Next time somebody waves a fork in front of your face, look them dead in the eye and say something like, "You are my [mother/friend/etc] and I respect you and your beliefs. I would really appreciate you showing the same respect to me."
Honestly, in what I'm getting from the OP, she doesn't respect these people/their beliefs. She's setting it up so that any decision they make that doesn't validate her view of herself as enlightened and compassionate and moral is wrong and makes them bad people. I don't think she is being respectful, honestly.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 2:27 PM on November 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
You sound like a 1) condescending 2) judgemental, 3) evangelist. No one likes those. This is the age of the internet: if people want information on a subject, they can get it themselves. How do you think you would react to someone who had very different values to you, who was constantly posting things like this about an issue you were on the other side of, for the benefit of your "moral education", and setting themselves up as your moral superior?
It's all so childish, and I understand that maybe they feel threatened because it represents to them such a life change that they are not willing to make
No, they're annoyed because you are setting yourself up as:
- an adult to their children
- a morally sound ("good") person to their benighted, unenlighted ("bad") selves
- a brave warrior for truth and justice vs selfish cowards
Plus, from what you say in the OP, this is something you've done repeatedly. On more than one occasion. This all seems, honestly, more about you seeing yourself as a crusader than actually helping the "cause". Your ostensible purpose in this behavior is to raise awareness or win converts to your beliefs, but it's very obviously not working. I assume you're smart enough to realize that, so now the task before you is to figure out why you keep beating the dead horse. What are you getting out of this behavior that compels you to repeat it? You can choose to distance yourselves from them, but there are tons of people who are effective advocates for animal rights and still manage to get along with their friends and family who eat factory farmed meat. This will keep happening over and over and over again to you, until you figure out how not to be a condescending jerk about your beliefs. There is no perfect refuge of like-minded, ideologically pure people that will keep you from having to learn how to handle disagreement with grace.
DoubleLune: For the people who are taunting you, don't take their shit. Next time somebody waves a fork in front of your face, look them dead in the eye and say something like, "You are my [mother/friend/etc] and I respect you and your beliefs. I would really appreciate you showing the same respect to me."
Honestly, in what I'm getting from the OP, she doesn't respect these people/their beliefs. She's setting it up so that any decision they make that doesn't validate her view of herself as enlightened and compassionate and moral is wrong and makes them bad people. I don't think she is being respectful, honestly.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 2:27 PM on November 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
To continue - everyone wants to pretend that moral conflict is weightless. You can be a conservative who believes in three-strikes prison sentencing and gives lavishly to the GOP, I can believe that prisons are a racist gulag and routinely protest in front of them, but we can still be buddies! And we should! Totally! And we should do this by pretending that the things at the core of our lives don't matter - either we never mention them or we treat them as negotiable.
There's this sort of eviscerated individualism in play here that results in moral conformity - we can all "have our own beliefs" as long as we never, ever mention them to anyone who might disagree, or venture to suggest that when we "have our own beliefs" we believe them because we think they are right and scalable.
posted by Frowner at 2:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
There's this sort of eviscerated individualism in play here that results in moral conformity - we can all "have our own beliefs" as long as we never, ever mention them to anyone who might disagree, or venture to suggest that when we "have our own beliefs" we believe them because we think they are right and scalable.
posted by Frowner at 2:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: From your description it sounds like you have been a bit overbearing and aggressive in pushing this subject on them in the past, and now any time you bring it up they're reminded of that experience and so use it as an opportunity to take the piss out of you.
Sorry to keep baby-sitting, but I really don't know how else to keep saying that this is not the case.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:39 PM on November 29, 2011
Sorry to keep baby-sitting, but I really don't know how else to keep saying that this is not the case.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:39 PM on November 29, 2011
Response by poster: No post on your facebook page would go on for 150 comments unless you are repeatedly playing along/feeding the trolls/pushing their buttons/etc.
The debate turned into how "America did not become the greatest country in the Universe by eating lettuce and tofu." Literally, that is what was said. I sat back and watched.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:42 PM on November 29, 2011
The debate turned into how "America did not become the greatest country in the Universe by eating lettuce and tofu." Literally, that is what was said. I sat back and watched.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:42 PM on November 29, 2011
Delete the whole post, with no comment. If anyone messages you to ask why, tell them that certain people couldn't play nice with others. In the future, disable commenting or make the post invisible to the assholes.
posted by gjc at 2:46 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by gjc at 2:46 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Honestly, in what I'm getting from the OP, she doesn't respect these people/their beliefs. She's setting it up so that any decision they make that doesn't validate her view of herself as enlightened and compassionate and moral is wrong and makes them bad people. I don't think she is being respectful, honestly.
You're right, I don't respect people who support cruelty. But I do not shove videos of factory farms in their faces, I do not yell at them on Facebook calling them stupid or delusional or cruel. Again, I have mentioned this in passing once or twice in three years of hanging out with my friends.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're right, I don't respect people who support cruelty. But I do not shove videos of factory farms in their faces, I do not yell at them on Facebook calling them stupid or delusional or cruel. Again, I have mentioned this in passing once or twice in three years of hanging out with my friends.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:47 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you've really got a bunch of fb folks who like to duke it out (with each other, but in your space), then put on your mod hat and delete stuff. A friend of mine is a becoming-famous-on-the-internet writer who writes about atheism and sex and queer politics; many of the people who comment on her fb posts are not actual, real-life friends, so it's probably easier for her, socially speaking, to hit that little X button, but she will shut things down when they start to go off the rails. You can do this, too, and it's totally okay to do so. People may not like it, but tough - they can go be fighty someplace else if they can't express themselves respectfully.
posted by rtha at 2:53 PM on November 29, 2011
posted by rtha at 2:53 PM on November 29, 2011
In addition to the great advice above, it might be helpful to get some perspective from a few different friends who ARE supportive and respectful of you on why they think things have been going down the way you describe. They may be seeing patterns that you are not: for example, I'm not sure how/why your friends have an occasion to "make excuse after excuse" about why they don't opt for free-range alternatives if your position is something you've only mentioned in passing once or twice?
posted by argonauta at 2:54 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by argonauta at 2:54 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think some of the language in your post/question makes it sound like you nag people, even if that's not the case. That may be where some of the responses are coming from. The ones that struck me as such:
My "friends" won't listen to me and won't try to understand how they can make it work, and I really think it is because they don't "give a shit about animals."
(although, like I've said, I've tried to explain to them how easy it can be, and mind you, these people do have the money...new phones all the time, new gadgets, Mercedes cars, etc.)
Sure it's their money, they can spend it how they want, I'm just saying that they really have no excuse
I'm not saying you do nag, I'm just saying your question comes off that way. It might simply be your choice of words, but that may be the case in how you talk to your friends as well.
But yeah, generally they sound like dicks that you'd be happier not having in your life.
posted by aclevername at 2:55 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
My "friends" won't listen to me and won't try to understand how they can make it work, and I really think it is because they don't "give a shit about animals."
(although, like I've said, I've tried to explain to them how easy it can be, and mind you, these people do have the money...new phones all the time, new gadgets, Mercedes cars, etc.)
Sure it's their money, they can spend it how they want, I'm just saying that they really have no excuse
I'm not saying you do nag, I'm just saying your question comes off that way. It might simply be your choice of words, but that may be the case in how you talk to your friends as well.
But yeah, generally they sound like dicks that you'd be happier not having in your life.
posted by aclevername at 2:55 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm not sure how/why your friends have an occasion to "make excuse after excuse" about why they don't opt for free-range alternatives if your position is something you've only mentioned in passing once or twice?
I meant in the thread on Facebook. My SO was actually responding, and they were coming up with excuse after excuse. Hence the 150 posts.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:57 PM on November 29, 2011
I meant in the thread on Facebook. My SO was actually responding, and they were coming up with excuse after excuse. Hence the 150 posts.
posted by DeltaForce at 2:57 PM on November 29, 2011
Response by poster: Okay, I see that I am being misunderstood. To clarify, if you were my "friend," this is how it went down.
One year ago:
Friend: Want a burger?
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I prefer free-range meat from a local farm.
Friend: [Insert some witty comment about how organic food is for hippies]
Me: [Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.]
The end. (Except for when they continue laughing about how I brought my own meat, or am not eating the meat, etc.)
One year later on Facebook:
Me: Please educate yourselves about factory farms so we can stop unnecessary cruelty.
Friends: America is the greatest country in the universe, you're delusional about life, the animal's agony adds flavor (verbatim).
....
Under these circumstances, that's probably not how you would respond. Because I wasn't nagging.
Thank you to everyone who didn't assume I was being a jerk all these years to my friends and who explained to me that I can drop them and get new friends. Kind of excited to meet new people that I can swap recipes with, to be honest!
posted by DeltaForce at 3:06 PM on November 29, 2011
One year ago:
Friend: Want a burger?
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I prefer free-range meat from a local farm.
Friend: [Insert some witty comment about how organic food is for hippies]
Me: [Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.]
The end. (Except for when they continue laughing about how I brought my own meat, or am not eating the meat, etc.)
One year later on Facebook:
Me: Please educate yourselves about factory farms so we can stop unnecessary cruelty.
Friends: America is the greatest country in the universe, you're delusional about life, the animal's agony adds flavor (verbatim).
....
Under these circumstances, that's probably not how you would respond. Because I wasn't nagging.
Thank you to everyone who didn't assume I was being a jerk all these years to my friends and who explained to me that I can drop them and get new friends. Kind of excited to meet new people that I can swap recipes with, to be honest!
posted by DeltaForce at 3:06 PM on November 29, 2011
So, I think this might be your trigger issue.
We all have them. I have them about specific issues in feminism. Basically, they are a topic you can't talk to apostates about. You can be right about them- you are right about this one! Factory farms are terrible! Animal abuse is evil!- but for whatever reason, the emotions they invoke in you are so powerful that you can't handle talking to non-believers about them.
I'm just seeing the way you interact in this thread- you can't step away for a minute, you have to keep hitting your points, you're managing the answerers in the question itself ("Don't respond if you don't care about factory farming," etc). This is just not a good issue for you where you can make your point and walk away. You let your SO fight the Facebook battle, but that was still in your hands. You couldn't have told them to stop responding? Or locked down the post? Sure, you could have done those things. Except that you can't, because this is your trigger issue.
You just have to have faith that other people are going to take the baton from you on this. Donate money, sign petitions, go to protests, but don't advocate person-to-person on this issue. Trust that other people who agree with you but aren't quite as emotional about it are going to step up, and in turn you step up for them. There's probably some social justice issue that gets you less emotional, and that's the one you step up person-to-person on while you save your heavy-guns advocacy for animal rights.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:08 PM on November 29, 2011 [12 favorites]
We all have them. I have them about specific issues in feminism. Basically, they are a topic you can't talk to apostates about. You can be right about them- you are right about this one! Factory farms are terrible! Animal abuse is evil!- but for whatever reason, the emotions they invoke in you are so powerful that you can't handle talking to non-believers about them.
I'm just seeing the way you interact in this thread- you can't step away for a minute, you have to keep hitting your points, you're managing the answerers in the question itself ("Don't respond if you don't care about factory farming," etc). This is just not a good issue for you where you can make your point and walk away. You let your SO fight the Facebook battle, but that was still in your hands. You couldn't have told them to stop responding? Or locked down the post? Sure, you could have done those things. Except that you can't, because this is your trigger issue.
You just have to have faith that other people are going to take the baton from you on this. Donate money, sign petitions, go to protests, but don't advocate person-to-person on this issue. Trust that other people who agree with you but aren't quite as emotional about it are going to step up, and in turn you step up for them. There's probably some social justice issue that gets you less emotional, and that's the one you step up person-to-person on while you save your heavy-guns advocacy for animal rights.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:08 PM on November 29, 2011 [12 favorites]
Sorry to keep baby-sitting, but I really don't know how else to keep saying that this is not the case.
I'm looking at what you've marked as best answers, and it's all people who're basically supporting you and saying things like "your status updates sound fine!" and "it's cool to distance yourself from these people" - which might or might not be true, but everything you seem to agree with or find valuable is stuff that already supports this dichotomy of you = good, everyone else = bad. That in and of itself is pretty telling to me. If you're sorry about the baby-sitting, why do you seem so invested in convincing AskMe that you're in the right here? You seem very resistant to any kind of reflection about whether, in essence, you are part of the problem. Like I said before: lots of people are even more active in advocating against factory-farmed meat than you are, and they don't have these problems. Check out headnsouth's response. You're trying to make this about your beliefs, instead of about your behavior, but that's just giving yourself an excuse. All of your responses when you talk about these people make you sound like a condescending, self-righteous jerk.
Me: [Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.
Meal-times aren't the time for sermons (unless people have agreed to that!), and even if they were, you aren't your friends's spiritual leader.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 3:11 PM on November 29, 2011 [19 favorites]
I'm looking at what you've marked as best answers, and it's all people who're basically supporting you and saying things like "your status updates sound fine!" and "it's cool to distance yourself from these people" - which might or might not be true, but everything you seem to agree with or find valuable is stuff that already supports this dichotomy of you = good, everyone else = bad. That in and of itself is pretty telling to me. If you're sorry about the baby-sitting, why do you seem so invested in convincing AskMe that you're in the right here? You seem very resistant to any kind of reflection about whether, in essence, you are part of the problem. Like I said before: lots of people are even more active in advocating against factory-farmed meat than you are, and they don't have these problems. Check out headnsouth's response. You're trying to make this about your beliefs, instead of about your behavior, but that's just giving yourself an excuse. All of your responses when you talk about these people make you sound like a condescending, self-righteous jerk.
Me: [Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.
Meal-times aren't the time for sermons (unless people have agreed to that!), and even if they were, you aren't your friends's spiritual leader.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 3:11 PM on November 29, 2011 [19 favorites]
I think it's telling that all of the "best answers" reinforce your view of yourself as morally superior. You don't think it is possible at all that you are coming off preachier than intended?
Nevertheless, if you feel harassed, you delete the posts, unfriend the friends, and stop seeing anyone in real life who you believe is disrespecting your views. Why did your SO feel compelled to respond to turn it into a 150 comment thread? Why not at a certain point realize it's going nowhere and drop the subject?
posted by Anonymous at 3:14 PM on November 29, 2011
Nevertheless, if you feel harassed, you delete the posts, unfriend the friends, and stop seeing anyone in real life who you believe is disrespecting your views. Why did your SO feel compelled to respond to turn it into a 150 comment thread? Why not at a certain point realize it's going nowhere and drop the subject?
posted by Anonymous at 3:14 PM on November 29, 2011
Some of these people actively abuse pets
And you've reported these people to the proper authorities, right?
Or is this 'abuse' that only you would see, but 99% of humanity would call normal?
Me: [Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.]
Yeah, that's being preachy. It doesn't take 5 minutes to say, "I prefer meat raised more humanely".
My point is, you seem, by your own statements, to be a bit over-dramatic, so imagine how you come across in real life before you start patting yourself on the back, if your goal is to change minds, not to just limit your social circle.
I suspect most of the people in that 150 comment thread were just pulling your leg because you kept reacting, not out of any care one way or another about the issue.
posted by nomisxid at 3:15 PM on November 29, 2011
And you've reported these people to the proper authorities, right?
Or is this 'abuse' that only you would see, but 99% of humanity would call normal?
Me: [Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.]
Yeah, that's being preachy. It doesn't take 5 minutes to say, "I prefer meat raised more humanely".
My point is, you seem, by your own statements, to be a bit over-dramatic, so imagine how you come across in real life before you start patting yourself on the back, if your goal is to change minds, not to just limit your social circle.
I suspect most of the people in that 150 comment thread were just pulling your leg because you kept reacting, not out of any care one way or another about the issue.
posted by nomisxid at 3:15 PM on November 29, 2011
Response by poster: @ The Master and Margarita Mix
One of the responses talked about how certain topics make her go defensive because of past experiences. I guess I am being very defensive and baby-sitting because in that Facebook thread I was steam-rollered and not nicely so. I am defensive because certain people keep saying I'm doing things that I'm not, and I came to MetaFilter to hopefully get some advice on how to deal with it. If I were actually being a jerk to these people, your advice would be helpful and I would favorite it. But I haven't been. It's fine if you and others don't believe me, but that is why I don't find comments like yours helpful.
I'm finally done responding. If people want to think that I am being a jerk and going and on and on in my real life when I see these people, fine, but it's not accurate.
posted by DeltaForce at 3:17 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
One of the responses talked about how certain topics make her go defensive because of past experiences. I guess I am being very defensive and baby-sitting because in that Facebook thread I was steam-rollered and not nicely so. I am defensive because certain people keep saying I'm doing things that I'm not, and I came to MetaFilter to hopefully get some advice on how to deal with it. If I were actually being a jerk to these people, your advice would be helpful and I would favorite it. But I haven't been. It's fine if you and others don't believe me, but that is why I don't find comments like yours helpful.
I'm finally done responding. If people want to think that I am being a jerk and going and on and on in my real life when I see these people, fine, but it's not accurate.
posted by DeltaForce at 3:17 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Friend: Want a burger?
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I prefer free-range meat from a local farm.
I'm sorry, but there's just something about this that strikes me as condescending and kind of douchey. I'm pretty liberal, but if this were the response to my offer of a burger I'd roll my eyes, too.
posted by downing street memo at 3:17 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I prefer free-range meat from a local farm.
I'm sorry, but there's just something about this that strikes me as condescending and kind of douchey. I'm pretty liberal, but if this were the response to my offer of a burger I'd roll my eyes, too.
posted by downing street memo at 3:17 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think it's perfectly okay to state your own beliefs and, further, advocate for them on social media. I think it's perfectly okay to unfriend people who either advocate a very different belief that makes you cringe every time you scroll past, or those who comment on your own posts in the way you've described. That's why Jesus-hates-gays cousin and I are no longer social media buddies. It's stopped me nursing an intense dislike for someone whose beliefs disgust me, but on a topic that probably wouldn't come up on the mostly-funeral occasions we see one another in person. Skipping the drama is awesome.
posted by Occula at 3:19 PM on November 29, 2011
posted by Occula at 3:19 PM on November 29, 2011
Best answer: I'm just seeing the way you interact in this thread
To be fair, she was extremely explicit, in all bold text no less, that she didn't want to hear the kind of hectoring "well, it has to be your fault somehow, let's guess 50 different random ways you might have been an asshole" answers that so many people are providing, and yet here we are.
OP, unfortunately this very thread is a symptom of how difficult it is to talk about this stuff (really, almost any kind of moral issue) in mixed company; even here, a relatively progressive corner of the internet, you're still going to hear a bunch of people telling you that you simply must have been arrogant or preachy about it, because many people interpret even daring to speak about these issues as inherently pretentious and "holier than thou." I don't think you are coming across that way at all, if it's any help. You are entitled to turn down a burger, and if they ask you why, you are entitled to explain your feelings.
posted by dialetheia at 3:22 PM on November 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
To be fair, she was extremely explicit, in all bold text no less, that she didn't want to hear the kind of hectoring "well, it has to be your fault somehow, let's guess 50 different random ways you might have been an asshole" answers that so many people are providing, and yet here we are.
OP, unfortunately this very thread is a symptom of how difficult it is to talk about this stuff (really, almost any kind of moral issue) in mixed company; even here, a relatively progressive corner of the internet, you're still going to hear a bunch of people telling you that you simply must have been arrogant or preachy about it, because many people interpret even daring to speak about these issues as inherently pretentious and "holier than thou." I don't think you are coming across that way at all, if it's any help. You are entitled to turn down a burger, and if they ask you why, you are entitled to explain your feelings.
posted by dialetheia at 3:22 PM on November 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
It's rude to ask people why they're declining food. Doubly rude to critique thei reasons for doing so.
Oh, no doubt. But there's no way to say "I prefer free-range local meat" without the implicit judgment of the person who doesn't eat that way. That's why you say something along the lines of, "Not in the mood for a burger" or "Not hungry" or something innocuous.
It's not at all settled that the "free range" label signifies anything other than a bit of marketing savvy, nor is it settled that "local" food really is best. These are moral stances, not factual ones; you can't invoke them without subtly judging the person who doesn't have the same stances.
posted by downing street memo at 3:32 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oh, no doubt. But there's no way to say "I prefer free-range local meat" without the implicit judgment of the person who doesn't eat that way. That's why you say something along the lines of, "Not in the mood for a burger" or "Not hungry" or something innocuous.
It's not at all settled that the "free range" label signifies anything other than a bit of marketing savvy, nor is it settled that "local" food really is best. These are moral stances, not factual ones; you can't invoke them without subtly judging the person who doesn't have the same stances.
posted by downing street memo at 3:32 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Look, there's this quote: "No one preaches like the converted."
And there is this article: How to Preach So As To Convert Nobody
But really, people like to tease, especially on Facebook (maybe they were hoping for a Lamebook entry), and they were engaged:
IRL
One year ago:
Friend: Want a burger?
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I prefer free-range meat from a local farm.
Friend: [Insert some witty comment about how organic food is for hippies]
Me:[Spend five minutes explaining why I do what I do, and how it's actually quite easy.] Yup. [change subject]
The end. (Except for when they continue laughing about how I brought my own meat, or am not eating the meat, etc.) "Yup." [change subject]
Okay, well, I'm not really sure how to go about dealing with this. I have a hard time being close to people like this. The thing is, I do like spending time with them, but they're really not very nice to me sometimes, so maybe I should distance myself from them.
Yes. You've shown some people where your buttons are and how to push them. It might be irresistible, if your relationship is casual enough that they don't understand how deeply you feel and if you keep your personal agenda as a criteria for relationships to meet.
Should I block certain status-updates from these people? What about in-laws who keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no? (This really upsets me when they do this.)
No, if you want to maintain a relationship. Can you grow a thicker skin? As for the inlaws, same thing. "Nope." And change the subject. Disengage yourself first.
posted by peagood at 3:37 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
And there is this article: How to Preach So As To Convert Nobody
But really, people like to tease, especially on Facebook (maybe they were hoping for a Lamebook entry), and they were engaged:
IRL
One year ago:
Friend: Want a burger?
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I prefer free-range meat from a local farm.
Friend: [Insert some witty comment about how organic food is for hippies]
Me:
The end. (Except for when they continue laughing about how I brought my own meat, or am not eating the meat, etc.) "Yup." [change subject]
Okay, well, I'm not really sure how to go about dealing with this. I have a hard time being close to people like this. The thing is, I do like spending time with them, but they're really not very nice to me sometimes, so maybe I should distance myself from them.
Yes. You've shown some people where your buttons are and how to push them. It might be irresistible, if your relationship is casual enough that they don't understand how deeply you feel and if you keep your personal agenda as a criteria for relationships to meet.
Should I block certain status-updates from these people? What about in-laws who keep offering me factory-farmed meat and laughing, knowing I'll say no? (This really upsets me when they do this.)
No, if you want to maintain a relationship. Can you grow a thicker skin? As for the inlaws, same thing. "Nope." And change the subject. Disengage yourself first.
posted by peagood at 3:37 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I guess I'm not done responding, but I am not being combative, I promise.
Is it really out of line to express why I don't want the burger? These people express their beliefs on what they think is right or wrong regarding many things. One of them is outspoken against human-trafficking, and they are totally allowed to express that opinion.
Is it really not correct for me to explain why I don't want the burger? Why do I have to keep quiet about it. I don't mean give a sermon, but just politely explain why I am opposed it.
If I had a friend offer to give me a slave, no one would be telling me it is rude to explain why I am against slavery.
posted by DeltaForce at 3:37 PM on November 29, 2011
Is it really out of line to express why I don't want the burger? These people express their beliefs on what they think is right or wrong regarding many things. One of them is outspoken against human-trafficking, and they are totally allowed to express that opinion.
Is it really not correct for me to explain why I don't want the burger? Why do I have to keep quiet about it. I don't mean give a sermon, but just politely explain why I am opposed it.
If I had a friend offer to give me a slave, no one would be telling me it is rude to explain why I am against slavery.
posted by DeltaForce at 3:37 PM on November 29, 2011
If you are in a restaurant you are free to choose whatever you want off the menu without personally affecting or offending anyone. But if someone offers you food that they have purchased and prepared for you, it is beyond rude to turn it down because you prefer cleaner, better, more ethical food. You turn it down with regret and gratitude for the offer.
posted by headnsouth at 3:40 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 3:40 PM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
I've been contemplating switching to veganism, and a lot of my conflict is actually how this would be perceived by my peers. (I spend a lot of time hanging out with friends who own t-shirts that say "Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder.")
This is how I would've handled your sample conversation:
I have a couple of pet causes that I'm really, really strident about, but I've learned that it's really important to frame in in empathetic terms ("I feel awful about this, don't you?") rather than disseminating terms ("Please learn about this issue!") because it's really easy to trigger other people's reactions.
That said, you probably do need new friends. Or new in-laws, at least.
posted by Phire at 3:40 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
This is how I would've handled your sample conversation:
Friend: Want a burger?And this is how I would've handled the Facebook update:
Me: No thanks.
Friend: Why?
Me: I'm trying to be careful about where the food I eat comes from.
Friend: [Insert some witty comment about how organic food is for hippies]
Me: Hey, hippies are cool. [Switch to Doctor Who reference.]
Ugh, I can't believe how inhumane people can be. Surely we can feed ourselves without resorting to practices like these? [link]I think what's setting a lot of people off is the "please educate yourselves" angle, because it implies that they're ignorant, or else are choosing to be cruel. I know that when I feel defensive or feel like I've been called out as being a not-as-good-person-as-I-could-be, I might lash out by justifying my position even when it's not justifiable...and sometimes that's hard to back away from, so I end up being more of an ass by refusing to capitulate.
I have a couple of pet causes that I'm really, really strident about, but I've learned that it's really important to frame in in empathetic terms ("I feel awful about this, don't you?") rather than disseminating terms ("Please learn about this issue!") because it's really easy to trigger other people's reactions.
That said, you probably do need new friends. Or new in-laws, at least.
posted by Phire at 3:40 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Are you trafficking humans? If not, I hope you can understand why that's a non-analogy.
You are judging your friends. Not strangers. Your friends. And you are hoping that they'll take it without a grain of conflict. That isn't how change happens.
posted by politikitty at 3:42 PM on November 29, 2011
You are judging your friends. Not strangers. Your friends. And you are hoping that they'll take it without a grain of conflict. That isn't how change happens.
posted by politikitty at 3:42 PM on November 29, 2011
Response by poster: @headnsouth, They ask me why. Why do I have to make something up?
posted by DeltaForce at 3:42 PM on November 29, 2011
posted by DeltaForce at 3:42 PM on November 29, 2011
"America did not become the greatest country in the Universe by eating lettuce and tofu."
You sound very earnest. Some people can't help but tease the earnest. You should either prune your "friends" list to just people who are as sincere and impassioned as you are, or learn to recognize when people are pulling your leg.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:44 PM on November 29, 2011
You sound very earnest. Some people can't help but tease the earnest. You should either prune your "friends" list to just people who are as sincere and impassioned as you are, or learn to recognize when people are pulling your leg.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:44 PM on November 29, 2011
I guess I'm not done responding, but I am not being combative, I promise.
Pay attention to this typo. It means something.
Seriously, I'm actually smiling a little while I type this- not because I'm laughing at you or not taking you seriously, but because this is SO FAMILIAR to me. I feel exactly this way about one or two key issues. I just can't deal with them. I have to physically restrain myself from engaging in them- like, literally, I have to go take a walk or block certain things on my phone/message boards or email a friend and say, "DON'T LET ME RESPOND. I CAN'T RESPOND. TELL ME A STORY ABOUT BASEBALL UNTIL I CLOSE THE TAB."
So, yeah, I think you can't explain why you don't want the burger. It's just your thing. Every time they ask, maybe you go home and donate $5 to an animal rights organization, if that helps you. This is just your button issue.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:44 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Pay attention to this typo. It means something.
Seriously, I'm actually smiling a little while I type this- not because I'm laughing at you or not taking you seriously, but because this is SO FAMILIAR to me. I feel exactly this way about one or two key issues. I just can't deal with them. I have to physically restrain myself from engaging in them- like, literally, I have to go take a walk or block certain things on my phone/message boards or email a friend and say, "DON'T LET ME RESPOND. I CAN'T RESPOND. TELL ME A STORY ABOUT BASEBALL UNTIL I CLOSE THE TAB."
So, yeah, I think you can't explain why you don't want the burger. It's just your thing. Every time they ask, maybe you go home and donate $5 to an animal rights organization, if that helps you. This is just your button issue.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:44 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
They ask me why. Why do I have to make something up?
I suspect they were looking more for an answer like "I already have dinner plans and don't want to fill up," not a five-minute lecture.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:45 PM on November 29, 2011
I suspect they were looking more for an answer like "I already have dinner plans and don't want to fill up," not a five-minute lecture.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:45 PM on November 29, 2011
I guess I'm not done responding, but I am not being combative, I promise.
Pay attention to this typo. It means something.
What it means is I misread that sentence. Sorry!
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:47 PM on November 29, 2011
Pay attention to this typo. It means something.
What it means is I misread that sentence. Sorry!
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:47 PM on November 29, 2011
Because it is gracious and polite to do so.
Ask yourself, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? You do come across as combative, I'm sorry, as it's clear that you don't mean to.
posted by headnsouth at 3:47 PM on November 29, 2011
Ask yourself, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? You do come across as combative, I'm sorry, as it's clear that you don't mean to.
posted by headnsouth at 3:47 PM on November 29, 2011
Friends: America is the greatest country in the universe, you're delusional about life, the animal's agony adds flavor
I'm pretty sure they don't actually believe that the animal's agony adds flavor. Which means they are trolling you: deliberately posting something they do not believe, but which they know to be upsetting to you, in order to get a rise out of you (or your SO or others who share your view).
Decades of internet experience have shown us that the best way to deal with trolls is not to feed them (that is, not engage them in argument), and possibly to delete trollish comments as well.
A person who disagrees with you but is still open-minded enough to listen to your arguments is also a person who engages in good-faith debate and does not post arguments that they do not personally believe just for the lulz of making you angry. A troll is not a person who is open to changing their mind, no matter how much evidence and rational argument you provide. Don't waste your time.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:49 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure they don't actually believe that the animal's agony adds flavor. Which means they are trolling you: deliberately posting something they do not believe, but which they know to be upsetting to you, in order to get a rise out of you (or your SO or others who share your view).
Decades of internet experience have shown us that the best way to deal with trolls is not to feed them (that is, not engage them in argument), and possibly to delete trollish comments as well.
A person who disagrees with you but is still open-minded enough to listen to your arguments is also a person who engages in good-faith debate and does not post arguments that they do not personally believe just for the lulz of making you angry. A troll is not a person who is open to changing their mind, no matter how much evidence and rational argument you provide. Don't waste your time.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:49 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: So I guess if I were having dinner with Thomas Jefferson, it would be rude to criticize slavery.
posted by DeltaForce at 3:58 PM on November 29, 2011
posted by DeltaForce at 3:58 PM on November 29, 2011
Response by poster: Anyway, these people asking me why, are people who already know why.
posted by DeltaForce at 4:01 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by DeltaForce at 4:01 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Anyway, these people asking me why, are people who already know why.
Any reason you can't say that? "You know me well enough to know that."
I believe that sermons are okay but must be kept to under 30 words.
And yes, drop anything that might make you sound like you think they're ignorant. They aren't ignorant- they're jerking your chain. Heck, if an "educate yourself" scrolled by my facebook page I would have to be feeling very virtuous not to do a little chain yanking myself, even when I'm on the side of the person doing the condescending.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:06 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Any reason you can't say that? "You know me well enough to know that."
I believe that sermons are okay but must be kept to under 30 words.
And yes, drop anything that might make you sound like you think they're ignorant. They aren't ignorant- they're jerking your chain. Heck, if an "educate yourself" scrolled by my facebook page I would have to be feeling very virtuous not to do a little chain yanking myself, even when I'm on the side of the person doing the condescending.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:06 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am defensive because certain people keep saying I'm doing things that I'm not
Yeah, people often have a hard time understanding what total brats others can turn into over meat and related issues. And since the preachy vegan/vegetarian/animal-rights-activist is a well-known cliche, and the preachy carnivore isn't, it's a lot easier for people to process your experience as "well, nobody would treat you like that unless you'd aggravated them - you must have been sanctimoniously preachy without realising it!"
But that's also part of the problem with the RL people who are being rude to you. I'm a non-preachy vegetarian who's dealt with some of the same kind of "mmmm, yummy delicious dead animal sandwich, loooook!" stuff before, and what helped me to deal with it was realising that as far as these people saw it, they were being judged sanctimoniously for their beliefs. Doesn't matter that all I'd said was "I'm vegetarian", or that the examples they gave me of All Those Preachy Vegetarians who'd driven them to this point often came down to "I saw this PETA sticker once"; they felt judged, and they responded accordingly by aggressively defending themselves.
I'm not suggesting you edit your behaviour so nobody can ever feel that you're judging them, since there's no way to reasonably do that in a situation where people are sometimes going to feel that you're judging them based entirely on the filling in your sandwiches. But for me, it was helpful to treat that kind of confrontational approach by responding to the out-of-place defensiveness, not the actual subject. In practice that looked something like this:
"Hey, want to taste this ham and leek soup?"
"No thanks, I'm vegetarian. Smells good though."
"Yeah, it smells of YUMMY DEAD FLESH! Mmmm, cute little chicken..."
Pause, slightly baffled look: "O-kay. Could you pass the pepper?"
"Is that chicken on your salad?"
"Nope, it's tofu."
"Tofu? Ha! You know what I think? I think our species didn't climb to the top of the foodchain by being wussy about eating meat, that's what I think."
"Yep, my salad is going to be the downfall of humanity. Want some?"
At which point most basically decent people will just laugh it off.
People who are not basically decent, however, are another story, and it sounds like some of your pet-abusing Facebook friends might well fall into that category. When people are pointlessly and repeatedly rude to you, that's their issue to. Hange, not yours. Just refuse to engage - and if they demand to know why, make it clear it's because they're being rude to you.
posted by Catseye at 4:07 PM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
Yeah, people often have a hard time understanding what total brats others can turn into over meat and related issues. And since the preachy vegan/vegetarian/animal-rights-activist is a well-known cliche, and the preachy carnivore isn't, it's a lot easier for people to process your experience as "well, nobody would treat you like that unless you'd aggravated them - you must have been sanctimoniously preachy without realising it!"
But that's also part of the problem with the RL people who are being rude to you. I'm a non-preachy vegetarian who's dealt with some of the same kind of "mmmm, yummy delicious dead animal sandwich, loooook!" stuff before, and what helped me to deal with it was realising that as far as these people saw it, they were being judged sanctimoniously for their beliefs. Doesn't matter that all I'd said was "I'm vegetarian", or that the examples they gave me of All Those Preachy Vegetarians who'd driven them to this point often came down to "I saw this PETA sticker once"; they felt judged, and they responded accordingly by aggressively defending themselves.
I'm not suggesting you edit your behaviour so nobody can ever feel that you're judging them, since there's no way to reasonably do that in a situation where people are sometimes going to feel that you're judging them based entirely on the filling in your sandwiches. But for me, it was helpful to treat that kind of confrontational approach by responding to the out-of-place defensiveness, not the actual subject. In practice that looked something like this:
"Hey, want to taste this ham and leek soup?"
"No thanks, I'm vegetarian. Smells good though."
"Yeah, it smells of YUMMY DEAD FLESH! Mmmm, cute little chicken..."
Pause, slightly baffled look: "O-kay. Could you pass the pepper?"
"Is that chicken on your salad?"
"Nope, it's tofu."
"Tofu? Ha! You know what I think? I think our species didn't climb to the top of the foodchain by being wussy about eating meat, that's what I think."
"Yep, my salad is going to be the downfall of humanity. Want some?"
At which point most basically decent people will just laugh it off.
People who are not basically decent, however, are another story, and it sounds like some of your pet-abusing Facebook friends might well fall into that category. When people are pointlessly and repeatedly rude to you, that's their issue to. Hange, not yours. Just refuse to engage - and if they demand to know why, make it clear it's because they're being rude to you.
posted by Catseye at 4:07 PM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
("cute little pig", that should say. Clearly all those years of tofu have made my mind weak and feeble after all!)
posted by Catseye at 4:10 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Catseye at 4:10 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Actually yes, if you already know he owns slaves and you have chosen to remain friends with him in spite of that fact, and you accept a dinner invitation to his plantation knowing the food has been grown and prepared by his slaves, then yes, at the dinner table it would be rude for you to refuse to eat his food because he owns slaves.
And i can see how your facebook thread grew to 150 posts so i am done here. Good luck.
posted by headnsouth at 4:10 PM on November 29, 2011 [18 favorites]
And i can see how your facebook thread grew to 150 posts so i am done here. Good luck.
posted by headnsouth at 4:10 PM on November 29, 2011 [18 favorites]
To answer your original question, drama can be avoided on Facebook by deleting comments. I regularly delete snarky comments. Your Facebook page is yours. Don't let anyone hijack it. Delete their comments if they are inappropriate. If they continue to post comments after you have deleted their original comments, block them or defriend them. In person, the issue is a bit more complicated, of course, but the basic premise is the same. Your life is your life. If you have informed a friend or family member of your ethics of eating, there is no reason to revisit it. (Imagine a convert to Orthodox Judaism who is keeping Kosher being offered bacon every time she visits her mother.) At some point, you have to cut out people who are not willing to respect, or at least be silent about, your choices around the food you eat and don't eat. (Of course, like anyone with a non-normative diet, it is your duty to inform new hosts before food is prepared of your choices.)
posted by hworth at 4:18 PM on November 29, 2011
posted by hworth at 4:18 PM on November 29, 2011
DeltaForce: So I guess if I were having dinner with Thomas Jefferson, it would be rude to criticize slavery.
You've chosen a bad analogy. Slavery is illegal. It's near-universally recognized as immoral and unacceptable. Eating animals is legal. It's near-universally recognized as acceptable and not immoral. If you're criticizing society's value system, then yes, society would call that rude.
The main problem with your situation is that your values are not your friends' values and some of your friends are apparently assholes.
posted by hootenatty at 4:20 PM on November 29, 2011
You've chosen a bad analogy. Slavery is illegal. It's near-universally recognized as immoral and unacceptable. Eating animals is legal. It's near-universally recognized as acceptable and not immoral. If you're criticizing society's value system, then yes, society would call that rude.
The main problem with your situation is that your values are not your friends' values and some of your friends are apparently assholes.
posted by hootenatty at 4:20 PM on November 29, 2011
It seems like there is wide consensus here that you don't have to put up with rudeness from anyone, and you should feel free to block or ignore anyone who treats you badly, and that it's a great idea to foster more relationships with people who share your points of view. I think what many commenters are trying to do here is to help you handle this situation, but also to try to avoid getting caught in a situation like this again. Of course you're welcome to only pay attention to the advice that focuses on the issue immediately at hand, but I hope you'll consider that many of the responses that go beyond that scope are indeed trying to be helpful to you.
I think the challenge you may face going forward is that you admit flat-out that you don't respect anyone who supports animal cruelty, which you define as anyone who ever prepares and/or consumes factory-raised animals. If you really do believe that anyone who does so is as morally reprehensible as someone involved in human slavery, then I'd think you have no choice put to disassociate yourself from all of these people, full stop. Not just on Facebook. Even your and your partner's family members. And many people on Metafilter. If you don't feel you need to go that far, and if there are people who are kind and respectful to you even if they do not share your beliefs, then what is your goal? And what is your goal when it comes to people who (likely) are in your life permanently? And what are the tactics that you think will be most likely to help you achieve that long-term?
No one here is arguing with you on the merits of your beliefs. It seems like everyone is just trying to offer guidance on how to best navigate a world that will, at many times, be inconsistent with them. Good luck.
posted by argonauta at 4:25 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think the challenge you may face going forward is that you admit flat-out that you don't respect anyone who supports animal cruelty, which you define as anyone who ever prepares and/or consumes factory-raised animals. If you really do believe that anyone who does so is as morally reprehensible as someone involved in human slavery, then I'd think you have no choice put to disassociate yourself from all of these people, full stop. Not just on Facebook. Even your and your partner's family members. And many people on Metafilter. If you don't feel you need to go that far, and if there are people who are kind and respectful to you even if they do not share your beliefs, then what is your goal? And what is your goal when it comes to people who (likely) are in your life permanently? And what are the tactics that you think will be most likely to help you achieve that long-term?
No one here is arguing with you on the merits of your beliefs. It seems like everyone is just trying to offer guidance on how to best navigate a world that will, at many times, be inconsistent with them. Good luck.
posted by argonauta at 4:25 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oh, no doubt. But there's no way to say "I prefer free-range local meat" without the implicit judgment of the person who doesn't eat that way.
Really? I guess i could see if she'd said i prefer free-range local meat to this, unlike you torture-supporting uneducated fool, then it would be judgmental.
An analogy would be an atheist telling a religious person he/she is an atheist. It's a statement of a personal preference with no indication of judgement about the other party.
posted by revikim at 4:27 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Really? I guess i could see if she'd said i prefer free-range local meat to this, unlike you torture-supporting uneducated fool, then it would be judgmental.
An analogy would be an atheist telling a religious person he/she is an atheist. It's a statement of a personal preference with no indication of judgement about the other party.
posted by revikim at 4:27 PM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I went vegetarian ten years ago. Now, from time to time, I eat organic, free-range chicken and turkey, probably for many of the same reasons as you. I've heard the jokes, and sometimes been the butt of them, though I've never, ever been steamrolled like you were on facebook, despite being friends with many happy and self-righteous carnivores.
But then, I try VERY VERY hard not to preach. Ever. Even when there seems to be an opening. I've learned food ethics and animal rights are issues which make people defensive, for the dozens of reasons outlined above. In almost every case, when asked why I'm declining meat, I choose to respond jokingly -- that I'm a food hippie, that I prefer happy chickens (my spouse is fond of this one), and so on, because it doesn't make people (as) defensive. Defensive people are not open to hearing about the other side of things, no matter how passionate and educated you are. However, if someone is genuinely interested in my choices -- not just asking "why" as the hamburger's being offered -- I will explain in a careful, non-attacking way.
As for people who gleefully abuse their pets, that is another story. A sociopathic one.
posted by changeling at 4:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
But then, I try VERY VERY hard not to preach. Ever. Even when there seems to be an opening. I've learned food ethics and animal rights are issues which make people defensive, for the dozens of reasons outlined above. In almost every case, when asked why I'm declining meat, I choose to respond jokingly -- that I'm a food hippie, that I prefer happy chickens (my spouse is fond of this one), and so on, because it doesn't make people (as) defensive. Defensive people are not open to hearing about the other side of things, no matter how passionate and educated you are. However, if someone is genuinely interested in my choices -- not just asking "why" as the hamburger's being offered -- I will explain in a careful, non-attacking way.
As for people who gleefully abuse their pets, that is another story. A sociopathic one.
posted by changeling at 4:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
These people, who may or may not be your friends (I don't know enough about them) are quite obviously trying to mess with you.
I have a relative who will not stop harassing you until you are in tears and puking. This is not what he wants from you - this is the point at which he realizes you aren't having as much fun as he is. Other relatives have had to go to him and say, point blank, "when you talk about X in that way, it hurts me profoundly and it makes me want to never have another conversation with you again." He will turn to his wife, with you in the room, and tell her loud enough for the entire room to hear about some thing about you which is deeply personal and which you earlier made him swear never to reveal (it has taken some of us years of pain to understand that you really can't tell him such things.) He simply doesn't have a good barometer of when he's causing agony to other people, socially.
Big groups of near-strangers are exactly like that. They don't realize you're not having as much fun as they are till you're well past the point of despair. There are whole topics you have to just not have with them. You can't share secrets or sacred information with them because it will be mistreated. They simply don't have a good barometer of when they're causing pain - not because they're composed of people who are vaguely sociopathic like my relative, but because groups of human beings are mostly evil, especially when they don't have a good command structure in place (they can still be evil then, but the odds of being successfully not evil are better.) Sometimes smaller groups - especially families with a higher tolerance for conflict and teasing - look almost exactly like a mob. See, also, junior high school. I totally have family who would, at various points in my life, do things like try to put food in my mouth that everyone knew I thought was vile. This is well within the boundaries of rude, exuberant, totally inappropriate, still happens a lot human behavior. Is it patently 5th-grade nonsense? Sure, of course. Doesn't matter, especially if other people are cheering them on.
It doesn't really matter what your thing is, for what it's worth. Today, for you, it's factory farming and ethical food. But it didn't have to be - they've identified you (probably not consciously) as an acceptable target of group abuse. The best thing to do is shift your focus away from spending time with/communicating with people who proactively abuse you - this is different from people who go along with it (they might be OK on their own) and people who happen to agree with the abusers in this case.
(It's actually turned out, for me, that just not getting into situations where several "abusing SMPA is kind of fun" people make up the leadership of the group is sufficient for avoiding most drama. I also don't tell my relative much of anything, and have a reputation for crying easily, which really is fairly effective with him. And yeah, I'm super careful about what I post on Facebook, specifically to avoid drama.)
posted by SMPA at 4:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
I have a relative who will not stop harassing you until you are in tears and puking. This is not what he wants from you - this is the point at which he realizes you aren't having as much fun as he is. Other relatives have had to go to him and say, point blank, "when you talk about X in that way, it hurts me profoundly and it makes me want to never have another conversation with you again." He will turn to his wife, with you in the room, and tell her loud enough for the entire room to hear about some thing about you which is deeply personal and which you earlier made him swear never to reveal (it has taken some of us years of pain to understand that you really can't tell him such things.) He simply doesn't have a good barometer of when he's causing agony to other people, socially.
Big groups of near-strangers are exactly like that. They don't realize you're not having as much fun as they are till you're well past the point of despair. There are whole topics you have to just not have with them. You can't share secrets or sacred information with them because it will be mistreated. They simply don't have a good barometer of when they're causing pain - not because they're composed of people who are vaguely sociopathic like my relative, but because groups of human beings are mostly evil, especially when they don't have a good command structure in place (they can still be evil then, but the odds of being successfully not evil are better.) Sometimes smaller groups - especially families with a higher tolerance for conflict and teasing - look almost exactly like a mob. See, also, junior high school. I totally have family who would, at various points in my life, do things like try to put food in my mouth that everyone knew I thought was vile. This is well within the boundaries of rude, exuberant, totally inappropriate, still happens a lot human behavior. Is it patently 5th-grade nonsense? Sure, of course. Doesn't matter, especially if other people are cheering them on.
It doesn't really matter what your thing is, for what it's worth. Today, for you, it's factory farming and ethical food. But it didn't have to be - they've identified you (probably not consciously) as an acceptable target of group abuse. The best thing to do is shift your focus away from spending time with/communicating with people who proactively abuse you - this is different from people who go along with it (they might be OK on their own) and people who happen to agree with the abusers in this case.
(It's actually turned out, for me, that just not getting into situations where several "abusing SMPA is kind of fun" people make up the leadership of the group is sufficient for avoiding most drama. I also don't tell my relative much of anything, and have a reputation for crying easily, which really is fairly effective with him. And yeah, I'm super careful about what I post on Facebook, specifically to avoid drama.)
posted by SMPA at 4:39 PM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
What I would do, in your position, is the opposite of what you are doing in this thread and possibly in your life.
Stop engaging.
Seriously.
You weren't asking whether your views were wrong or right, and you explicitly asked people not to go there. People did. Why are you responding? The more defensive you are, the less likely anyone will listen to you.
I'm guessing that when this subject comes up, because it means something to you, people see it as an easy way to get under your skin. Whether that means you should stop being friends with people is up to you. How do you deal with rude people? Personally, I laugh. Smiling confusing them. Getting upset, as you've noticed, just feeds the bears. Stop feeding the bears.
And I bet that as much as you think you aren't being overbearing and judgmental, some of those people disagree. And as much as you think they're ignorant and cruel, they don't agree. So you need to either discover a middle ground, where either they are more sensitive to or you adopt a thicker skin over this issue, or you need to make new friends and spend less time with your in-laws.
posted by sm1tten at 4:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Stop engaging.
Seriously.
You weren't asking whether your views were wrong or right, and you explicitly asked people not to go there. People did. Why are you responding? The more defensive you are, the less likely anyone will listen to you.
I'm guessing that when this subject comes up, because it means something to you, people see it as an easy way to get under your skin. Whether that means you should stop being friends with people is up to you. How do you deal with rude people? Personally, I laugh. Smiling confusing them. Getting upset, as you've noticed, just feeds the bears. Stop feeding the bears.
And I bet that as much as you think you aren't being overbearing and judgmental, some of those people disagree. And as much as you think they're ignorant and cruel, they don't agree. So you need to either discover a middle ground, where either they are more sensitive to or you adopt a thicker skin over this issue, or you need to make new friends and spend less time with your in-laws.
posted by sm1tten at 4:41 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses. I apologize for the thread getting out of hand, I am a bit flustered if you all didn't notice :) I suppose it didn't help that this evening I am being mocked and bashed by people on other people's pages? Time for that Facebook delete button methinks.
Thank you for taking the time to respond, even if I didn't necessarily agree with it. It at least gave me something to think about. Again sorry, if things got heated.
Can we all be friends? Thanks again.
posted by DeltaForce at 4:50 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Thank you for taking the time to respond, even if I didn't necessarily agree with it. It at least gave me something to think about. Again sorry, if things got heated.
Can we all be friends? Thanks again.
posted by DeltaForce at 4:50 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My "friends" won't listen to me and won't try to understand how they can make it work...
I've tried to explain to them how easy it can be...
If you don't want people responding negatively to this, then stop bringing it up. They obviously don't want to hear about it.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 1:24 PM on November 29, 2011 [13 favorites]