"You turn off the CAR, right, Dad?...It's like that."
November 24, 2011 9:16 AM Subscribe
Parental Computer Filter: Help me convince my father that leaving his computer on 24/7 is actually NOT a good thing to do, or tell me I'm wrong.
My parents are both kind of "computers-for-the-timid" folk, and my father has it in his head that he should NOT be turning his computer off, because turning it off and on is "bad for it." We've had a gentle debate about this for the past couple years -- he says the memory is bad on the computer they've got (a 2003 PC they got second-hand from my brother), and every time I visit I try to do some upkeep. Every time I tell him he should be turning it off, but every time he refuses.
When pressed, he says that the guy who came to set up their cable internet hookup told them that turning it off was "bad for it", and that he should leave it on all the time. He turns the monitor off when he's done using it, but the PCU is always on. He also says that "that's what we used to do at my office". When I point out that his office was part of a network, and also that by not turning his home system off he misses out on software updates, he just shrugs and says "I don't care, it's crappy and I'll get a new one soon."
Is there any way to prove to him that shutting a computer down is good for it? And does anyone know why the cable guy might have said it was "bad for it?" The only thing I can think is that the cable guy meant to not just cold shut it off, but to go through the shutdown procedure, and that my father just misunderstood.
My parents are both kind of "computers-for-the-timid" folk, and my father has it in his head that he should NOT be turning his computer off, because turning it off and on is "bad for it." We've had a gentle debate about this for the past couple years -- he says the memory is bad on the computer they've got (a 2003 PC they got second-hand from my brother), and every time I visit I try to do some upkeep. Every time I tell him he should be turning it off, but every time he refuses.
When pressed, he says that the guy who came to set up their cable internet hookup told them that turning it off was "bad for it", and that he should leave it on all the time. He turns the monitor off when he's done using it, but the PCU is always on. He also says that "that's what we used to do at my office". When I point out that his office was part of a network, and also that by not turning his home system off he misses out on software updates, he just shrugs and says "I don't care, it's crappy and I'll get a new one soon."
Is there any way to prove to him that shutting a computer down is good for it? And does anyone know why the cable guy might have said it was "bad for it?" The only thing I can think is that the cable guy meant to not just cold shut it off, but to go through the shutdown procedure, and that my father just misunderstood.
Purely anecdotal, I've never turned my computer off even when leaving it alone for weeks or a month. Had the current one for five years.
posted by londongeezer at 9:24 AM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by londongeezer at 9:24 AM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I never shut down my desktops. What if you want to use them?
posted by koolkat at 9:24 AM on November 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by koolkat at 9:24 AM on November 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
(Also, if you want anecdotal evidence, I had a Dell desktop from 2002 on all day, every day for almost ten years.)
posted by griphus at 9:25 AM on November 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 9:25 AM on November 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Just convince him to restart it once in a while so it can finish applying some of the updates. The computer will be as outdated as an 8088 before on-off cycling could ever be a problem.
posted by matlock expressway at 9:25 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by matlock expressway at 9:25 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
The only disadvantage of not turning the system off is the extra electricity use. If you're using it as a server, keep it on. If not, you can turn it off and on as much as you realistically want. If his system takes forever to boot, and he doesn't care about the extra $10 a month or so in wasted electricity, leaving it on might not be so bad.
posted by reformedjerk at 9:27 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by reformedjerk at 9:27 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
The computer is fine either way. However, he is spending quite a bit of money on electricity keeping it on.
posted by Authorized User at 9:27 AM on November 24, 2011
posted by Authorized User at 9:27 AM on November 24, 2011
There's a folklore belief that power cycling will wear out things like the hard drive by parking / unparking, or by charging and dissapating capacitors. I doubt it matters, but on the other hand I've been turning off personal computers nightly had two computers fail on me between 2003 and now, while your father's regime has seen zero.
Personally, I leave my work computer on because boot can take forever, and turn my laptop off because it lives in my bedroom and I don't want the fans running.
posted by pwnguin at 9:27 AM on November 24, 2011
Personally, I leave my work computer on because boot can take forever, and turn my laptop off because it lives in my bedroom and I don't want the fans running.
posted by pwnguin at 9:27 AM on November 24, 2011
Here's a pretty good rundown. There's hardware tradeoffs; cycling on-off and leaving it on both have their effects on the system. It really comes down to usage patterns and electricity bills.
posted by auto-correct at 9:28 AM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by auto-correct at 9:28 AM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I've been leaving my personal computers on nearly 24/7 for the last 10ish years. They've been fine. As auto-correct mentions, there's tradeoffs to either decision, but quite honestly it does not really matter beyond what works for the user. (Aside from the required rebooting for updates, etc.)
posted by asciident at 9:31 AM on November 24, 2011
posted by asciident at 9:31 AM on November 24, 2011
It's kind of a trade-off, leaving it on all the time versus turning it off and then on again. I didn't think either really does much damage but should be decided based on how the computer is used and how much it costs to keep it on. My work computer stays on all the time, but with my home desktop I just hibernate and restart occasionally to clear out the "gunk" and get updates.
posted by sm1tten at 9:32 AM on November 24, 2011
posted by sm1tten at 9:32 AM on November 24, 2011
he just shrugs and says "I don't care, it's crappy and I'll get a new one soon."
This sounds like the end of the conversation. He will probably give this same response no matter what your final argument is. So why bother?
posted by sleepingcbw at 9:32 AM on November 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
This sounds like the end of the conversation. He will probably give this same response no matter what your final argument is. So why bother?
posted by sleepingcbw at 9:32 AM on November 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Just use the power saving settings to make it shut down whenever it's been idle for two hours. Don't tell him you've done this. You could even set up a scheduled task to do this some random number of days after your next visit.
If he can actually find the Power section in the Control Panel, he deserves his own reality back.
posted by flabdablet at 9:34 AM on November 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
If he can actually find the Power section in the Control Panel, he deserves his own reality back.
posted by flabdablet at 9:34 AM on November 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Assuming the OS is installed correctly, it should be going into sleep or hibernate after a period of being left idle, so the power drain should be relatively low - although it sounds like your parents are not technical, so it might be worth checking it does go into sleep mode.
Power is still a factor, though. As is installing updates - I'm kind of amazed that it isn't restarting every so often, assuming it's running Windows. Has he also turned off updates? If so, and if he's using the Internet, that is a bad idea.
TBH, after 9 years something is likely to fail at some point anyway. More important than power on or off is probably setting up regular automated backups.
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:34 AM on November 24, 2011
Power is still a factor, though. As is installing updates - I'm kind of amazed that it isn't restarting every so often, assuming it's running Windows. Has he also turned off updates? If so, and if he's using the Internet, that is a bad idea.
TBH, after 9 years something is likely to fail at some point anyway. More important than power on or off is probably setting up regular automated backups.
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:34 AM on November 24, 2011
"Why has my computer started turning itself off?"
"Dunno, Dad. You've always said it's crappy. Maybe it's tired."
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 AM on November 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
"Dunno, Dad. You've always said it's crappy. Maybe it's tired."
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 AM on November 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
One of the problems I've come across with rebooting older computers is that they do not always load all the drivers properly, and from that point on the driver gets dropped from the profile unless added manually. This is usually a sign the hard drive is getting dodgy.
The reason the tech told him turning it off might be bad is if there is software running that controls the router or phone service. I haven't seen that in a while. He may have told him it would be bad to turn the router or modem off and your father misunderstood.
If he does have it on 24/7 the things to watch for are failures of the fans and hard drives. Otherwise it shouldn't be a problem.
posted by Yorrick at 9:36 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
The reason the tech told him turning it off might be bad is if there is software running that controls the router or phone service. I haven't seen that in a while. He may have told him it would be bad to turn the router or modem off and your father misunderstood.
If he does have it on 24/7 the things to watch for are failures of the fans and hard drives. Otherwise it shouldn't be a problem.
posted by Yorrick at 9:36 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I expect the tech told him that switching it off at the wall without shutting it down properly was bad for it, and he just didn't understand what half those words meant. I have customers like that.
posted by flabdablet at 9:40 AM on November 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:40 AM on November 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Turning computers off and on causes thermal stress on the components, as they heat up and cool down every day. That's why people say it's bad for it. They're not entirely wrong, either.
posted by Jairus at 9:59 AM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Jairus at 9:59 AM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
I've deliberately shut down a computer overnight maybe 10 times in a decade. Sometimes they need to be rebooted, but I'll just do that before bed, then leave it on. As far as I know, none of my computers have failed because they weren't shut down at night.
Actually his evidence supports his point of view - if it's been running since 2003 and he can keep using it without problems, then he's doing something right!
Just tell him to reboot it once a month or so.
posted by barnone at 10:01 AM on November 24, 2011
Actually his evidence supports his point of view - if it's been running since 2003 and he can keep using it without problems, then he's doing something right!
Just tell him to reboot it once a month or so.
posted by barnone at 10:01 AM on November 24, 2011
It's a myth that turning off your computer harms it. So says the EnergyStar program. http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=power_mgt.pr_pm_faq.
posted by yarly at 10:09 AM on November 24, 2011
posted by yarly at 10:09 AM on November 24, 2011
Just use the power saving settings to make it shut down whenever it's been idle for two hours. Don't tell him you've done this. You could even set up a scheduled task to do this some random number of days after your next visit.
This is a horrible idea.
"Well, I'm halfway done with my tax return, but it's late, I'll leave it open and finish it in the morning."
Next morning:
"WTF, where'd my tax return go? What happened? Everything that I'd left open is gone!"
Besides, like everyone else has said, leaving computers on all the time isn't bad for them. Sure, it uses a bit more electricity, but it doesn't cause them to fail. As evidence, I present the computer that the OP's father uses. It is older than nearly everyone else posting in this thread's computer. It is left on all the time. It seems to work fine.
I am a professional software developer. I have owned many computers. I generally leave all of them on all of the time. They occasionally get rebooted, but they never just sit around in powered-off states. This includes laptops (which do go to sleep when the lid is closed) and desktops (which are on occasion specifically left on to serve as servers). I have a co-worker who left a desktop PC on for five years and only ever finally shut it down because they moved his office. Everyone else had their machines replaced two times over in the meantime, and he didn't even turn his off. The novelty of this situation was that he was still using a five-year-old machine, not that he never turned it off. This has never caused any of them to fail.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:13 AM on November 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
This is a horrible idea.
"Well, I'm halfway done with my tax return, but it's late, I'll leave it open and finish it in the morning."
Next morning:
"WTF, where'd my tax return go? What happened? Everything that I'd left open is gone!"
Besides, like everyone else has said, leaving computers on all the time isn't bad for them. Sure, it uses a bit more electricity, but it doesn't cause them to fail. As evidence, I present the computer that the OP's father uses. It is older than nearly everyone else posting in this thread's computer. It is left on all the time. It seems to work fine.
I am a professional software developer. I have owned many computers. I generally leave all of them on all of the time. They occasionally get rebooted, but they never just sit around in powered-off states. This includes laptops (which do go to sleep when the lid is closed) and desktops (which are on occasion specifically left on to serve as servers). I have a co-worker who left a desktop PC on for five years and only ever finally shut it down because they moved his office. Everyone else had their machines replaced two times over in the meantime, and he didn't even turn his off. The novelty of this situation was that he was still using a five-year-old machine, not that he never turned it off. This has never caused any of them to fail.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:13 AM on November 24, 2011 [8 favorites]
The reasoning I've heard is that you should leave it on so that it can download updates. Only reboot (not just...turn it off and leave it off) when it needs to actually reboot in order to install updates (plenty of updates, such as virus definitions and browser updates, don't require a reboot anyway--so you get those immediately if it's on).
posted by anaelith at 10:22 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by anaelith at 10:22 AM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, and now that I've noticed the title:
"You turn off the CAR, right, Dad?...It's like that."
No, it's really not. It's a lot more like:
"You turn off the DVD player, right, Dad?...It's like that."
Or the wireless router, or the clock on the microwave, or your cell phone.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:25 AM on November 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
"You turn off the CAR, right, Dad?...It's like that."
No, it's really not. It's a lot more like:
"You turn off the DVD player, right, Dad?...It's like that."
Or the wireless router, or the clock on the microwave, or your cell phone.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:25 AM on November 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
Just use the power saving settings to make it shut down whenever it's been idle for two hours. Don't tell him you've done this. You could even set up a scheduled task to do this some random number of days after your next visit.
Please don't do this to a family member. If you did it to me, and it would permanently damage our relationship. Trust, once broken, is hard to mend. I wouldn't stop loving my kid, but I'd never give them a logon password again, wouldn't let them so much as check their FB from my PC, and might move to whole-drive encryption.
You've made your argument, and he chooses to do otherwise with his property.
By the way, I keep my desktop on 24/7, my laptop I shut down when I'm not using it.
posted by tyllwin at 10:52 AM on November 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Please don't do this to a family member. If you did it to me, and it would permanently damage our relationship. Trust, once broken, is hard to mend. I wouldn't stop loving my kid, but I'd never give them a logon password again, wouldn't let them so much as check their FB from my PC, and might move to whole-drive encryption.
You've made your argument, and he chooses to do otherwise with his property.
By the way, I keep my desktop on 24/7, my laptop I shut down when I'm not using it.
posted by tyllwin at 10:52 AM on November 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
One of my old computers died with sparks shooting out of the power supply. That could have been bad if nobody was near.
posted by reynaert at 11:48 AM on November 24, 2011
posted by reynaert at 11:48 AM on November 24, 2011
I suspect that the "don't turn your computer off" meme came from people who just hit that power switch without shutting down their OS first, back in the day.
Leaving a computer on all the time isn't bad for them if it has adequate case ventilation (appropriately sized fans and no excess dust) and you're not just spinning the hard drives for the sake of spinning the hard drives (one place where the car analogy and not the microwave clock analogy is more apt).
There is a convenience vs. paying for electricity thing here, but I suspect he's been given the equivalent of a dire warning about getting your arm broken when you start your car that is no longer appropriate and puts the key in the ignition with unnecessary fear in his heart.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:35 PM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Leaving a computer on all the time isn't bad for them if it has adequate case ventilation (appropriately sized fans and no excess dust) and you're not just spinning the hard drives for the sake of spinning the hard drives (one place where the car analogy and not the microwave clock analogy is more apt).
There is a convenience vs. paying for electricity thing here, but I suspect he's been given the equivalent of a dire warning about getting your arm broken when you start your car that is no longer appropriate and puts the key in the ignition with unnecessary fear in his heart.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:35 PM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
or by charging and dissapating capacitors
The capacitors in an active power supply are charging and discharging 60 times a second to smooth out the ripple in the converted DC current. If this was causing actual wear, it would be a good argument for turning off your computer.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:35 PM on November 24, 2011
The capacitors in an active power supply are charging and discharging 60 times a second to smooth out the ripple in the converted DC current. If this was causing actual wear, it would be a good argument for turning off your computer.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:35 PM on November 24, 2011
The capacitors in an active power supply are charging and discharging 60 times a second to smooth out the ripple in the converted DC current. If this was causing actual wear, it would be a good argument for turning off your computer.
Aging of capacitors during operation is a real phenomena and you can reduce aging by turning off your computer. There are three types of capacitors in a typical system -- small ceramics, medium sized solid tantalums, and large electrolytics.
The ceramic capacitors have a high rate of initial aging but very little thereafter. Ceramic capacitors age logarithmically in decade hours during operation. The first decade is 10 hours, the second is 100 hours, the third is 1000 hours, etc. So a capacitor which ages 5% per decade hour will have lost 20% of its capacitance after 10,000 hours (a little over a year) but only another 5% over the next 100,000 hours (about 11 years). Systems are designed to account for this 20% loss over the first year, but after that, there is little change for the typical lifetime of a device.
Tantalum capacitors are typically very stable and show little effect of aging.
The ones that are most susceptible to aging are the electrolytics which are the big cylinders in your power supply and also those little cans surrounding your CPU chip on the motherboard. Those capacitors have a manufacturer rating of only 1000 to 10,000 hours (a year or less). So why aren't all of your computers failing in the first year? It is because the manufacturer rating is for worst case temperature and ripple current. Your computer will be designed to operate well below maximum rated temperature and ripple current. This extends the expected life of electrolytic capacitors to somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 hours (about 6 to 11 years).
For electrolytic capacitors, this expected life is in the range where is really does matter if you turn your computer off when not using it. Just turning it off for 8 hours a day while sleeping will increase the expected life by several years. Also note that these are averaged lifespans. Some will last much shorter and some much longer. By reducing the aging of your capacitors, you increase the reliability of your system and its probability of lasting more than a couple years.
If you are someone who never keeps your computer longer than a couple years, none of this probably matters. For those who keep their equipment longer, it is a significant consideration.
For me, the bottom line is that is is irresponsible to waste energy for no good reason. Do you leave the lights on in rooms when no one is there? You can hibernate your computer and shut it down so that turn-on takes only a few seconds, you never need to exit your programs, and you never need to reboot. Hibernation is functionally the same as leaving your computer always running but without the wasted energy.
posted by JackFlash at 1:18 PM on November 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
Aging of capacitors during operation is a real phenomena and you can reduce aging by turning off your computer. There are three types of capacitors in a typical system -- small ceramics, medium sized solid tantalums, and large electrolytics.
The ceramic capacitors have a high rate of initial aging but very little thereafter. Ceramic capacitors age logarithmically in decade hours during operation. The first decade is 10 hours, the second is 100 hours, the third is 1000 hours, etc. So a capacitor which ages 5% per decade hour will have lost 20% of its capacitance after 10,000 hours (a little over a year) but only another 5% over the next 100,000 hours (about 11 years). Systems are designed to account for this 20% loss over the first year, but after that, there is little change for the typical lifetime of a device.
Tantalum capacitors are typically very stable and show little effect of aging.
The ones that are most susceptible to aging are the electrolytics which are the big cylinders in your power supply and also those little cans surrounding your CPU chip on the motherboard. Those capacitors have a manufacturer rating of only 1000 to 10,000 hours (a year or less). So why aren't all of your computers failing in the first year? It is because the manufacturer rating is for worst case temperature and ripple current. Your computer will be designed to operate well below maximum rated temperature and ripple current. This extends the expected life of electrolytic capacitors to somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 hours (about 6 to 11 years).
For electrolytic capacitors, this expected life is in the range where is really does matter if you turn your computer off when not using it. Just turning it off for 8 hours a day while sleeping will increase the expected life by several years. Also note that these are averaged lifespans. Some will last much shorter and some much longer. By reducing the aging of your capacitors, you increase the reliability of your system and its probability of lasting more than a couple years.
If you are someone who never keeps your computer longer than a couple years, none of this probably matters. For those who keep their equipment longer, it is a significant consideration.
For me, the bottom line is that is is irresponsible to waste energy for no good reason. Do you leave the lights on in rooms when no one is there? You can hibernate your computer and shut it down so that turn-on takes only a few seconds, you never need to exit your programs, and you never need to reboot. Hibernation is functionally the same as leaving your computer always running but without the wasted energy.
posted by JackFlash at 1:18 PM on November 24, 2011 [9 favorites]
This is one of those generational things that is really hard to overcome. It's really hard to explain why certain practices are best practices to someone who doesn't understand computers in general. My dad has thwarted some of the madness with his own father by saying, "Ok, you do what you think is best. If you run into problems eventually, keep what I've said in the back of your mind!as a possible explanation. I'd love to help you set up your new computer with the caveat that I've got some recommendations of my own that years of experience with technology have helped me developed, and hopefully they'll help you too."
And when Grandpa neglects to use my dad's advice and calls him in a panic, my dad kindly but politely directs him to the Geek Squad.
With non-relatives my dad charges $100/hour.
Personally, I restart my computer as often as possible, but I was always taught to leave my computers on and only shut down when away for long stretches of time. YMMV.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 1:41 PM on November 24, 2011
And when Grandpa neglects to use my dad's advice and calls him in a panic, my dad kindly but politely directs him to the Geek Squad.
With non-relatives my dad charges $100/hour.
Personally, I restart my computer as often as possible, but I was always taught to leave my computers on and only shut down when away for long stretches of time. YMMV.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 1:41 PM on November 24, 2011
I'm a computer guy (on the software side though, I'm not a hardware engineer or anything) and I would agree with Jairus that this can be harmful due to thermal stress: I would expect that the expansion and contraction of the components due to heating and cooling can cause microscopic cracking or similar problems.
You know how with some cars, when you shut them off you can actually hear little crackling and pinging sounds from the engine and other things contracting as they cool off? The temperatures are lower with a computer but electronics are more fragile than the mechanical components of a car.
I live in Northern New England and the part of the house where I keep my computers is usually unheated or minimally heated. During the 1990's I had two computers die immediately when powered up after an extended period shut off. Just last month I had to shut off a five-year-old Windows system that I normally keep running 24/7 and when I tried to start it up again it would bluescreen before the OS finished booting with some kind of hard drive controller error; after trying to get it running several times, I left it powered on at the bluescreen for a half hour or so, so that the hardware could warm up, and after that it rebooted successfully.
So, this happens to me, but possibly in warmer climes or seasons it wouldn't be an issue for others. I would assume that a system is more susceptible to it as it gets older though.
But since there are lots of things that can happen to a computer, I would introduce your father to an online backup service for keeping his data secure and point out to him that if his computer does die he'll probably be able to get someone to give him an equivalent or better used system gratis off of craigslist or freecycle or something like that.
He definitely ought to be rebooting it regularly for security updates, though.
posted by XMLicious at 2:19 PM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know how with some cars, when you shut them off you can actually hear little crackling and pinging sounds from the engine and other things contracting as they cool off? The temperatures are lower with a computer but electronics are more fragile than the mechanical components of a car.
I live in Northern New England and the part of the house where I keep my computers is usually unheated or minimally heated. During the 1990's I had two computers die immediately when powered up after an extended period shut off. Just last month I had to shut off a five-year-old Windows system that I normally keep running 24/7 and when I tried to start it up again it would bluescreen before the OS finished booting with some kind of hard drive controller error; after trying to get it running several times, I left it powered on at the bluescreen for a half hour or so, so that the hardware could warm up, and after that it rebooted successfully.
So, this happens to me, but possibly in warmer climes or seasons it wouldn't be an issue for others. I would assume that a system is more susceptible to it as it gets older though.
But since there are lots of things that can happen to a computer, I would introduce your father to an online backup service for keeping his data secure and point out to him that if his computer does die he'll probably be able to get someone to give him an equivalent or better used system gratis off of craigslist or freecycle or something like that.
He definitely ought to be rebooting it regularly for security updates, though.
posted by XMLicious at 2:19 PM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've got an extreme anecdote, and you shouldn't really guide your life by extreme anecdotes, but it this case it's funny and I don't think it's really harming much...
I normally leave my computers on all the time, have for over a decade. One night a few years ago I thought to myself, "I never shut my desktop down. What the hell, I'll shut it down tonight." The next morning, wouldn't boot, nothing. Had to replace the power supply. I laughed, of course, but these days when people ask me why they should leave their computers on, I tell them, "Because it's working now."
posted by Edogy at 2:19 PM on November 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I normally leave my computers on all the time, have for over a decade. One night a few years ago I thought to myself, "I never shut my desktop down. What the hell, I'll shut it down tonight." The next morning, wouldn't boot, nothing. Had to replace the power supply. I laughed, of course, but these days when people ask me why they should leave their computers on, I tell them, "Because it's working now."
posted by Edogy at 2:19 PM on November 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
You're kind of both wrong. It wouldn't hurt for him to turn it off but it doesn't really hurt to leave it on either. If the PC is from 2003 I'm guessing it's running Windows XP, so if automatic updates are turned on, it should be forcing a reboot to update once in awhile anyways. Of course you can always go at it from the wasting electricity/costing him money angle.
I leave my computer on pretty much all the time, excepting when Windows tells me to restart because it wants to install updates. It's from 2006 and still running like a charm.
posted by katyggls at 2:51 PM on November 24, 2011
I leave my computer on pretty much all the time, excepting when Windows tells me to restart because it wants to install updates. It's from 2006 and still running like a charm.
posted by katyggls at 2:51 PM on November 24, 2011
Thermal stress used to be a major cause of system failure. Back when components were the size of white appliances and used a lot more energy, starting up and shutting down literally expanded and contracted the innards of components. Thus, over time, users came to the conclusion that if you leave it running, it just works.
This was exacerbated by early hard disks, which had stiction problems as they aged. Hard drive failures were far more likely to occur when the drive was stopped than if it just kept spinning, MTBF numbers be damned.
This was then perpetuated by IT admins (like my previous self) who, before roaming profiles and all that jolly good networking stuff, had to apply patches to whole networks of computers in the evenings. When you have 100 computers to do and they each take 3 minutes to start up, that's five hours of extra time.
Finally, once the always-on broadband connection arrived, the computer went from a destination device to an ambient device. Rather than "sitting down to do some computer", computing was integrated into fragmented activities.
Granted, between advances in materials that probably today negate the difference between running constantly and on/off, as well as computers that sleep, the difference now is down to habit rather than any technical specifics.
For an example, look at laptops. Some people run them constantly. Some people open and shut them constantly. The result seems to remain the same.
As far as starting and stopping the car, I was always told that if you're going to turn the car off for less than 15 minutes, it's better (e.g. less wear) to just leave it running.
posted by nickrussell at 2:53 PM on November 24, 2011
This was exacerbated by early hard disks, which had stiction problems as they aged. Hard drive failures were far more likely to occur when the drive was stopped than if it just kept spinning, MTBF numbers be damned.
This was then perpetuated by IT admins (like my previous self) who, before roaming profiles and all that jolly good networking stuff, had to apply patches to whole networks of computers in the evenings. When you have 100 computers to do and they each take 3 minutes to start up, that's five hours of extra time.
Finally, once the always-on broadband connection arrived, the computer went from a destination device to an ambient device. Rather than "sitting down to do some computer", computing was integrated into fragmented activities.
Granted, between advances in materials that probably today negate the difference between running constantly and on/off, as well as computers that sleep, the difference now is down to habit rather than any technical specifics.
For an example, look at laptops. Some people run them constantly. Some people open and shut them constantly. The result seems to remain the same.
As far as starting and stopping the car, I was always told that if you're going to turn the car off for less than 15 minutes, it's better (e.g. less wear) to just leave it running.
posted by nickrussell at 2:53 PM on November 24, 2011
This is a horrible idea.
So is leaving a computer on 24x7 unless it has a UPS, which I bet PaterCallipygos's doesn't.
"Well, I'm halfway done with my tax return, but it's late, I'll leave it open and finish it in the morning."
(overnight there's a two-second interruption to the mains electricity supply)
Next morning:
"WTF, where'd my tax return go? What happened? Everything that I'd left open is gone! And why is the computer just starting itself up over and over and over? Empress, heelllllpppp!"
posted by flabdablet at 3:53 PM on November 24, 2011
So is leaving a computer on 24x7 unless it has a UPS, which I bet PaterCallipygos's doesn't.
"Well, I'm halfway done with my tax return, but it's late, I'll leave it open and finish it in the morning."
(overnight there's a two-second interruption to the mains electricity supply)
Next morning:
"WTF, where'd my tax return go? What happened? Everything that I'd left open is gone! And why is the computer just starting itself up over and over and over? Empress, heelllllpppp!"
posted by flabdablet at 3:53 PM on November 24, 2011
Silently changing the settings to something he explicitly doesn't want isn't cool. So yeah, horrible idea.
posted by L. Ron McKenzie at 4:57 PM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by L. Ron McKenzie at 4:57 PM on November 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
As stated above, it doesn't really matter whether it's on or off except for power usage. AND for updates to totally ..er.. update. I aim at rebooting once a week or so, but it's usually more like once a month.
posted by deborah at 5:41 PM on November 24, 2011
posted by deborah at 5:41 PM on November 24, 2011
(overnight there's a two-second interruption to the mains electricity supply)
Your argument is essentially equivalent to, "You should crash your car into a brick wall on purpose, because even if you don't do it on purpose you might do it on accident anyway."
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 8:21 PM on November 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Your argument is essentially equivalent to, "You should crash your car into a brick wall on purpose, because even if you don't do it on purpose you might do it on accident anyway."
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 8:21 PM on November 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
If a computer doesn't start up right after it was shut down, it was already broken. Turning it off just exposed the failure. Leaving a computer running when it isn't needed just lets it get clogged up with dust, wastes electricity and turns potentially recoverable failures into definitely not-fixable failures.
posted by gjc at 9:31 PM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by gjc at 9:31 PM on November 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
If a computer doesn't start up right after it was shut down, it was already broken.
It doesn't really feel like this, when I've seen a power supply go pop after plugging it in and turning on the power. Or flipping a switch to watch a lightbulb fail in a flash before me. But then the question is, does turning off the computer cause it to fail sooner than it otherwise would have?
posted by pwnguin at 9:54 PM on November 24, 2011
It doesn't really feel like this, when I've seen a power supply go pop after plugging it in and turning on the power. Or flipping a switch to watch a lightbulb fail in a flash before me. But then the question is, does turning off the computer cause it to fail sooner than it otherwise would have?
posted by pwnguin at 9:54 PM on November 24, 2011
"You should crash your car into a brick wall on purpose, because even if you don't do it on purpose you might do it on accident anyway."
I think of it more as "You should switch off the ignition, engage the hand brake and turn the wheels to the kerb before walking away from the car, because if you don't it might run down the hill, smash through the front window of the kindergarten, burst into flame, and incinerate all the little kids and their teacher and the classroom fish."
It's a perception thing. Mine sometimes gets a bit Michael Bay.
Also, kids doing things that their parents don't want them to is an aeons-old tradition. Surely we wouldn't contemplate casually throwing all of that away in pursuit of mere convenience? The relationship between parent and offspring is a holy thing. Won't somebody think of the children?
posted by flabdablet at 12:09 AM on November 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think of it more as "You should switch off the ignition, engage the hand brake and turn the wheels to the kerb before walking away from the car, because if you don't it might run down the hill, smash through the front window of the kindergarten, burst into flame, and incinerate all the little kids and their teacher and the classroom fish."
It's a perception thing. Mine sometimes gets a bit Michael Bay.
Also, kids doing things that their parents don't want them to is an aeons-old tradition. Surely we wouldn't contemplate casually throwing all of that away in pursuit of mere convenience? The relationship between parent and offspring is a holy thing. Won't somebody think of the children?
posted by flabdablet at 12:09 AM on November 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
It really just comes down to power bill, and if he has no issues with it, not sure you should care.
Anecdotal stuff, I never power off, unless I go away on holiday. The times were it had broken PSU is after coming back from holiday.
At work, we have some 2,500 servers, obviously never turned off, but man, when we have to reboot the machines with 5+ years of "uptime", that sure is stressful. About 25% of them don't come back.
posted by lundman at 3:47 AM on November 25, 2011
Anecdotal stuff, I never power off, unless I go away on holiday. The times were it had broken PSU is after coming back from holiday.
At work, we have some 2,500 servers, obviously never turned off, but man, when we have to reboot the machines with 5+ years of "uptime", that sure is stressful. About 25% of them don't come back.
posted by lundman at 3:47 AM on November 25, 2011
Of that 25%, lundman, do you have any kind of breakdown of PSU vs mobo vs drive failures?
posted by flabdablet at 5:39 AM on November 25, 2011
posted by flabdablet at 5:39 AM on November 25, 2011
pwnguin- I agree that the confirmation bias is strong here. Turning something on IS usually more stressful than just running steady-state, but being able to be turned on and off should be well within the operational specifications. So if something has failed, but only in a marginal way, it may well be able to continue to run for quite some time before failing completely.
My viewpoint here is that if something has failed in that marginal sort of way, you want to know about it as soon as possible. If a fan or a hard drive motor is starting to go bad, you want to find out before it dies mid-flight. Turning on and off is more of a self-test.
Now, as for the act of turning something on and off actually being bad for it, it really depends on the individual components and what they are designed for. Turning on likely "uses up" some of the life of a component, but so does being on. And being off saves up some life. You would have to know what those ratios are. My gut feeling is that unless you are really short cycling the components, the difference is negligible. IE, [startup + run for 8 hours + shut down] < [run for 24 hours] for wear. Especially for a unit that isn't specifically designed to run 24x7 like a server is. In fact, it used to be that consumer-grade hard drives specifically warned against running 24x7. I don't know if that's still the case.
And super-especially when you account for wear with dollars. So even if turning something off does reduce its lifespan, the savings gained via the power bill offsets that. Maybe that $100 hard drive only lasts 4 years instead of 5 by being turned off every night. You've lost $20. But I bet you gained more than that on your electric bill.
(Now for ridiculousness: I just grabbed a hard drive off my pile of drives, fired up Excel and compared the power usage. At $0.135 per kilowatt hour (us average, August 2011), running a hard drive 8 hours a day costs $2.90 a year, running 24 hours costs $8.69. A savings of $5.79 a year. Which through sheer luck matches up pretty closely with my guesses above. That's just for the hard drive and assumes it actually spins the whole time. If you account for sleep modes and the costs of the rest of the computer, it starts to get incalculable.)
posted by gjc at 8:40 AM on November 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
My viewpoint here is that if something has failed in that marginal sort of way, you want to know about it as soon as possible. If a fan or a hard drive motor is starting to go bad, you want to find out before it dies mid-flight. Turning on and off is more of a self-test.
Now, as for the act of turning something on and off actually being bad for it, it really depends on the individual components and what they are designed for. Turning on likely "uses up" some of the life of a component, but so does being on. And being off saves up some life. You would have to know what those ratios are. My gut feeling is that unless you are really short cycling the components, the difference is negligible. IE, [startup + run for 8 hours + shut down] < [run for 24 hours] for wear. Especially for a unit that isn't specifically designed to run 24x7 like a server is. In fact, it used to be that consumer-grade hard drives specifically warned against running 24x7. I don't know if that's still the case.
And super-especially when you account for wear with dollars. So even if turning something off does reduce its lifespan, the savings gained via the power bill offsets that. Maybe that $100 hard drive only lasts 4 years instead of 5 by being turned off every night. You've lost $20. But I bet you gained more than that on your electric bill.
(Now for ridiculousness: I just grabbed a hard drive off my pile of drives, fired up Excel and compared the power usage. At $0.135 per kilowatt hour (us average, August 2011), running a hard drive 8 hours a day costs $2.90 a year, running 24 hours costs $8.69. A savings of $5.79 a year. Which through sheer luck matches up pretty closely with my guesses above. That's just for the hard drive and assumes it actually spins the whole time. If you account for sleep modes and the costs of the rest of the computer, it starts to get incalculable.)
posted by gjc at 8:40 AM on November 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks all -- this sounds like a your-mileage-may-vary thing after all, and I stand corrected.
The updates seems to be the only concern, and I did try to explain to him that turning it off now and then would be good so "Your computer has a chance to check whether Bill Gates updated the software" (sic), and he did say that when he and Mom leave town on extended visits he does do that, so at least that's covered. But it sounds like leaving it on isn't as bad as I'd thought it was.
And I'm sure my father would be thanking you for making me stop nagging him, so PaterCallipygos thanks you.
(Except he doesn't know I'm gearing up for the "why are you still using Norton instead of a smaller antivirus program" conversation. But I'll save that for the next computer.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:01 AM on November 25, 2011
The updates seems to be the only concern, and I did try to explain to him that turning it off now and then would be good so "Your computer has a chance to check whether Bill Gates updated the software" (sic), and he did say that when he and Mom leave town on extended visits he does do that, so at least that's covered. But it sounds like leaving it on isn't as bad as I'd thought it was.
And I'm sure my father would be thanking you for making me stop nagging him, so PaterCallipygos thanks you.
(Except he doesn't know I'm gearing up for the "why are you still using Norton instead of a smaller antivirus program" conversation. But I'll save that for the next computer.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:01 AM on November 25, 2011
Dad, if you want to save some energy, you can use the sleep mode. You can still get to stuff fast, but you save electricity, which means money.
posted by theora55 at 10:55 AM on November 25, 2011
posted by theora55 at 10:55 AM on November 25, 2011
Of that 25%, lundman, do you have any kind of breakdown of PSU vs mobo vs drive failures?
No hard numbers. My recollection of it was that most (probably over half) were the HDDs not spinning up again. So machine turned on, but nothing to boot.
The rest were completely dead, so either PSU or some part of the main board stopped it coming alive.
Both Intels and Sparcs.
Now all computers are on 3 year lease, so they get automatic reboot every 3 years, so we no longer have that "direct" issue.
posted by lundman at 5:28 PM on November 28, 2011
No hard numbers. My recollection of it was that most (probably over half) were the HDDs not spinning up again. So machine turned on, but nothing to boot.
The rest were completely dead, so either PSU or some part of the main board stopped it coming alive.
Both Intels and Sparcs.
Now all computers are on 3 year lease, so they get automatic reboot every 3 years, so we no longer have that "direct" issue.
posted by lundman at 5:28 PM on November 28, 2011
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posted by griphus at 9:22 AM on November 24, 2011 [7 favorites]