How to want a relationship, part II
November 13, 2011 10:55 PM Subscribe
Help me figure out what I may be missing by not seeking a relationship (28/M/hetero)
This is kind of a follow up question to an unfortunate thread I posted nearly a year ago.
In that thread, I was understandably lambasted for sounding* misogynistic and unempathetic, and besides, my post didn't really ask a clear question, so I'd like to try again. Also, stuff has changed in the mean time.
I'm 28 and still haven't had a serious long-term relationship. I still don't feel that I want one. My parents and some friends are still concerned that a day may come where I will, and that I'm doing myself a disservice by not seeking one out now. Although I don't agree, I think there's no greater danger than believing in my own infallibility, so I want to take what they're saying to heart.
One one hand, it doesn't sound reasonable or productive to "learn" to want an LTR. On the other, maybe I'll awaken some part of me that I've unknowingly been hiding or ignoring.
What's changed since my last post is that my situation is not as "hopeless" as it felt in January. I've had my share of "luck" in attracting women, for a variety of reasons. It's possible that if I sincerely seek a relationship, I might be able to find a girlfriend.
What I want to know is: other than just getting out there and giving dating a shot, are there other ways to understand what I may be missing? Perhaps something as simple as the right movie or book will give me a perspective that pushes me in the "right" direction (one friend suggested works by David Deida; it didn't quite "work," but did widen my perspective). Or maybe your own anecdotes. Or maybe some exercises.
To answer some basic questions: I am plenty physically attracted to women, I have many close female friends, and I do have tender feelings for women I'm seeing. I also tend to seek out people (both friends and partners) who are very emotionally stable. I have the idea that relationships are largely about offering each other emotional support, and possibly because I feel I don't need that, I don't seek a partner who does either.
So how could I ever possibly want a partner at all? Because I do recognize the comfort of just having someone there. Perhaps just not enough to be excited about the various compromises and responsibilities that go with it.
If I sound clinical about this, I don't mean to. I know I'm approaching this like a "problem" that needs a "solution", but that's just how I frame things. If I end up becoming more certain in my lack of need for a life partner, I don't want it to be because I was wearing blinders or avoiding growth.
* I'm not trying to suggest it was all a misunderstanding, but I compounded it with poor communication. Please try to give me the benefit of the doubt here.
This is kind of a follow up question to an unfortunate thread I posted nearly a year ago.
In that thread, I was understandably lambasted for sounding* misogynistic and unempathetic, and besides, my post didn't really ask a clear question, so I'd like to try again. Also, stuff has changed in the mean time.
I'm 28 and still haven't had a serious long-term relationship. I still don't feel that I want one. My parents and some friends are still concerned that a day may come where I will, and that I'm doing myself a disservice by not seeking one out now. Although I don't agree, I think there's no greater danger than believing in my own infallibility, so I want to take what they're saying to heart.
One one hand, it doesn't sound reasonable or productive to "learn" to want an LTR. On the other, maybe I'll awaken some part of me that I've unknowingly been hiding or ignoring.
What's changed since my last post is that my situation is not as "hopeless" as it felt in January. I've had my share of "luck" in attracting women, for a variety of reasons. It's possible that if I sincerely seek a relationship, I might be able to find a girlfriend.
What I want to know is: other than just getting out there and giving dating a shot, are there other ways to understand what I may be missing? Perhaps something as simple as the right movie or book will give me a perspective that pushes me in the "right" direction (one friend suggested works by David Deida; it didn't quite "work," but did widen my perspective). Or maybe your own anecdotes. Or maybe some exercises.
To answer some basic questions: I am plenty physically attracted to women, I have many close female friends, and I do have tender feelings for women I'm seeing. I also tend to seek out people (both friends and partners) who are very emotionally stable. I have the idea that relationships are largely about offering each other emotional support, and possibly because I feel I don't need that, I don't seek a partner who does either.
So how could I ever possibly want a partner at all? Because I do recognize the comfort of just having someone there. Perhaps just not enough to be excited about the various compromises and responsibilities that go with it.
If I sound clinical about this, I don't mean to. I know I'm approaching this like a "problem" that needs a "solution", but that's just how I frame things. If I end up becoming more certain in my lack of need for a life partner, I don't want it to be because I was wearing blinders or avoiding growth.
* I'm not trying to suggest it was all a misunderstanding, but I compounded it with poor communication. Please try to give me the benefit of the doubt here.
Response by poster: Do you absolutely, positively know that you want to have and raise kids?
Oh right, thanks, relevant point. No, I'm fairly certain I do not want to have kids (although adopting at some far away point is not out of the question).
posted by Talisman at 11:33 PM on November 13, 2011
Oh right, thanks, relevant point. No, I'm fairly certain I do not want to have kids (although adopting at some far away point is not out of the question).
posted by Talisman at 11:33 PM on November 13, 2011
Best answer: There are many kinds of relationships, many kinds of meanings, but they depend on you to perceive them as 'meaningful' or not. I can tell you to read, I dunno, 'Les Miserables' (it's worthwhile) or Stendhal's 'Charterhouse of Parma' (a randomish sampling of stuff I'd read recently), and they'd tell you a lot about human nature, relationships, what you're missing simply by being you & thus limited, etc. Any good work of literature will show you stuff you don't know about human relationships. It's worth expanding your horizons and just reading more of the classics. But. A lot of the meaning of stuff is in you as much or more than it is in it.
Asking what you're missing is like asking the meaning of life. Actually, that's really what you're asking. But there's no way to say that your meaning as you currently understand it is somehow incomplete; it is what it is at this point. If it changes, as it inevitably will, it changes.
Perhaps more relevant is the idea that love and relationships aren't about emotional support, child-rearing, commitment, or any of that other stuff-- because you can strip all of them from a relationship and have it survive and even thrive. A relationship is about change-- changing who you are, who you become, what you imagine life to be, your understanding of the boundaries of your patience, desire, anger, fear. You think you're X, but you're not. It's a preconception. It's a story you tell yourself. "I am a rational person" or "I need this, but not that", or "I'm a mathematician". It's a narrative. A genuine and meaningful love relationship transcends, completes, and utterly revolutionizes this narrative while simultaneously putting you more in touch with it than ever before. Suddenly, you're really you and yet totally new. That, I think, is what you're missing. On the bright (or dark) side, most people miss it anyway; most relationships aren't this way. People fail to live up to this ideal all the time. People fail to be their best selves. People settle for comfort. People don't rock the boat. People don't want to see themselves or anyone else clearly. And I don't even blame them.
One thing I'd recommend is to read the poetry of Rumi and Rilke: both of them wrote about love from the standpoint of an ultimately solitary, rational nature. Both of them approached this idea that love is a spiritual state of ultimate unity and transformation, and further it's not something that requires any traditional conceptualization of 'relationship'. A relationship is simply what you do to tie it down into known parameters so that you can integrate with society, be productive, and move on to doing other things; it is a compromise with necessity. Love alone brooks no such compromise, contains no rationalization and instead is more like the pure, burning cold logic of infinity; it is like water. Its most peculiar quality is that you don't miss it until you have it; there is literally no way to imagine such a state of grace outside its grip. It's an irrational state that unites intimately with every rational human faculty; it is a deep paradox, and could be one of the central paradoxes of being. At its height, the 'being in love' feeling can only be compared to a religious experience or to dreaming-- it is similarly impossible to translate into language that is genuinely informative, unless you set it into a narrative/creative structure such as poetry, music or fiction. Relationships, meanwhile, exist as something like boundary markers and social expedients, as mundane as love is sacred; one enters into them to be close to someone you love, or to gain security, or to gain the very status of public commitment. If you loved someone and they have loved you, you may stay in the hope of one day seeing that brilliant dream you once saw together become reality, but in reality one day you can barely even see each other. In rare instances, you do see each other clearly and the dream becomes irrelevant. This possibility of the comfort of being seen, being fully known-- that, then, is the thing you are missing.
posted by reenka at 11:56 PM on November 13, 2011 [40 favorites]
Asking what you're missing is like asking the meaning of life. Actually, that's really what you're asking. But there's no way to say that your meaning as you currently understand it is somehow incomplete; it is what it is at this point. If it changes, as it inevitably will, it changes.
Perhaps more relevant is the idea that love and relationships aren't about emotional support, child-rearing, commitment, or any of that other stuff-- because you can strip all of them from a relationship and have it survive and even thrive. A relationship is about change-- changing who you are, who you become, what you imagine life to be, your understanding of the boundaries of your patience, desire, anger, fear. You think you're X, but you're not. It's a preconception. It's a story you tell yourself. "I am a rational person" or "I need this, but not that", or "I'm a mathematician". It's a narrative. A genuine and meaningful love relationship transcends, completes, and utterly revolutionizes this narrative while simultaneously putting you more in touch with it than ever before. Suddenly, you're really you and yet totally new. That, I think, is what you're missing. On the bright (or dark) side, most people miss it anyway; most relationships aren't this way. People fail to live up to this ideal all the time. People fail to be their best selves. People settle for comfort. People don't rock the boat. People don't want to see themselves or anyone else clearly. And I don't even blame them.
One thing I'd recommend is to read the poetry of Rumi and Rilke: both of them wrote about love from the standpoint of an ultimately solitary, rational nature. Both of them approached this idea that love is a spiritual state of ultimate unity and transformation, and further it's not something that requires any traditional conceptualization of 'relationship'. A relationship is simply what you do to tie it down into known parameters so that you can integrate with society, be productive, and move on to doing other things; it is a compromise with necessity. Love alone brooks no such compromise, contains no rationalization and instead is more like the pure, burning cold logic of infinity; it is like water. Its most peculiar quality is that you don't miss it until you have it; there is literally no way to imagine such a state of grace outside its grip. It's an irrational state that unites intimately with every rational human faculty; it is a deep paradox, and could be one of the central paradoxes of being. At its height, the 'being in love' feeling can only be compared to a religious experience or to dreaming-- it is similarly impossible to translate into language that is genuinely informative, unless you set it into a narrative/creative structure such as poetry, music or fiction. Relationships, meanwhile, exist as something like boundary markers and social expedients, as mundane as love is sacred; one enters into them to be close to someone you love, or to gain security, or to gain the very status of public commitment. If you loved someone and they have loved you, you may stay in the hope of one day seeing that brilliant dream you once saw together become reality, but in reality one day you can barely even see each other. In rare instances, you do see each other clearly and the dream becomes irrelevant. This possibility of the comfort of being seen, being fully known-- that, then, is the thing you are missing.
posted by reenka at 11:56 PM on November 13, 2011 [40 favorites]
This is such a cart-before-the-horse question. If you can't imagine ever coming across anybody you think you might possibly want to see a whole lot of, there's not much point in wanting to. Because the reason to be in a relationship isn't just that you want the other person to support you or give you anything else; it's that you want to be around that person just for the sake of being around them. And if they feel the same way they're probably also going to happen to want to support you, if they're reasonably healthy. Have you ever been intensely emotionally drawn to somebody? Had a crush that wasn't entirely physical? I don't see any mention of love in this question.
Your other question suggested that you are essentially looking for someone perfect. I couldn't help but notice that you have trouble identifying with people, i.e. women, who seem too illogical, but that your preferences/desires -- for someone who is essentially "out of your league," and very possibly not in the places you're looking -- are, as you admitted, deeply unreasonable. But you're not mentioning the illogical things that drive you in conversation, so nobody calls you on it and you don't have to think of yourself as an illogical person. If you could look for what you might have in common with the women you meet, and keep in mind that sometimes things that annoy you are things that bother you about yourself, you might get a little closer to connecting. It also occurs to me that you may just need to look for smarter (which is not to say less emotional or more logical) people to date; it might be harder to make a powerful emotional connection with somebody who isn't in your peer group, intellectually.
posted by Adventurer at 11:57 PM on November 13, 2011 [6 favorites]
Your other question suggested that you are essentially looking for someone perfect. I couldn't help but notice that you have trouble identifying with people, i.e. women, who seem too illogical, but that your preferences/desires -- for someone who is essentially "out of your league," and very possibly not in the places you're looking -- are, as you admitted, deeply unreasonable. But you're not mentioning the illogical things that drive you in conversation, so nobody calls you on it and you don't have to think of yourself as an illogical person. If you could look for what you might have in common with the women you meet, and keep in mind that sometimes things that annoy you are things that bother you about yourself, you might get a little closer to connecting. It also occurs to me that you may just need to look for smarter (which is not to say less emotional or more logical) people to date; it might be harder to make a powerful emotional connection with somebody who isn't in your peer group, intellectually.
posted by Adventurer at 11:57 PM on November 13, 2011 [6 favorites]
You said "My parents and some friends are still concerned that a day may come where I will, and that I'm doing myself a disservice by not seeking one out now."
No one knows the keys to success but everyone knows the key to failure is doing what other people think you should do.
In my opinion, you have to WANT a relationship, otherwise it gives you no incentive to work on one when you get one. It sounds to me like you know what you want: time off from relationships at this point. You already know that you're childfree. Keep things the way they are.
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 12:02 AM on November 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
No one knows the keys to success but everyone knows the key to failure is doing what other people think you should do.
In my opinion, you have to WANT a relationship, otherwise it gives you no incentive to work on one when you get one. It sounds to me like you know what you want: time off from relationships at this point. You already know that you're childfree. Keep things the way they are.
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 12:02 AM on November 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
The thing is, everyone gets something different out of their relationship. Two relationships can be very healthy and rewarding, but operate on very different rules and provide very different benefits. The reason a good relationship is special is because it's a unique construction that exists for and is shaped by the unique individuals in it.
For me, being in a relationship makes me braver. My partner gives the the support (emotional, practical, financial, logistical) to do things that scare me. We're a team, and that makes us stronger and more capable than we are along.
My relationship means I'm hardly ever bored or lonely because my the most fun person I know is around all the time. I mean, it's my best friend, my travel partner, my ideal Scrabble opponent, my fellow adventurer, the person I like having sex with, and the best listener and talker I've ever met in my live all the time. It's awesome.
As far as the emotional support thing goes... I dunno, different people need different amounts of support at different times. I can't imagine a life charmed enough to think I'd never need it, nor a world where the people I care about don't need it from me sometimes. But for me, that's a big part of what real intimacy (romantic, familial, or friendship) means. Those kind of emotional ties and bonds are, for me, what interpersonal relationships are for. It's true for my friendships as well as my romantic partnership. That isn't necessarily true for you.
So maybe, examine your friendships and goals. A healthy romantic relationship will be an extension of those things you already do, feel, need, and value, not a wholly new and separate thing.
But really and truly, you can't plan a relationship before it happens. You don't get to imagine it and then find the person who can fit into that predefined role. The relationship would be built as much from the other person as from you. All you can do is be emotionally in touch and honest with yourself and be ready to give of yourself. A good relationship isn't about what another person can do for you, it's about the value of the life and bond you build together.
posted by mostlymartha at 12:08 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
For me, being in a relationship makes me braver. My partner gives the the support (emotional, practical, financial, logistical) to do things that scare me. We're a team, and that makes us stronger and more capable than we are along.
My relationship means I'm hardly ever bored or lonely because my the most fun person I know is around all the time. I mean, it's my best friend, my travel partner, my ideal Scrabble opponent, my fellow adventurer, the person I like having sex with, and the best listener and talker I've ever met in my live all the time. It's awesome.
As far as the emotional support thing goes... I dunno, different people need different amounts of support at different times. I can't imagine a life charmed enough to think I'd never need it, nor a world where the people I care about don't need it from me sometimes. But for me, that's a big part of what real intimacy (romantic, familial, or friendship) means. Those kind of emotional ties and bonds are, for me, what interpersonal relationships are for. It's true for my friendships as well as my romantic partnership. That isn't necessarily true for you.
So maybe, examine your friendships and goals. A healthy romantic relationship will be an extension of those things you already do, feel, need, and value, not a wholly new and separate thing.
But really and truly, you can't plan a relationship before it happens. You don't get to imagine it and then find the person who can fit into that predefined role. The relationship would be built as much from the other person as from you. All you can do is be emotionally in touch and honest with yourself and be ready to give of yourself. A good relationship isn't about what another person can do for you, it's about the value of the life and bond you build together.
posted by mostlymartha at 12:08 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
We do it because of instinct - evolved behaviour, selfish gene, etc.
If you don't have the urge to do get into a "normal" relationship, don't bother - without that irrational inbuilt desire I suspect the experience will be unsatisfying for you and upsetting for your (more normal) partner. (I understand this to an extent - I do have the pairing instinct but not the reproductive one.)
There are women who feel the same way as you, you could potentially find one of those and have a loosely-bound lifelong open partnership and get the bits you'll both like without the nonsense you won't.
posted by dickasso at 12:15 AM on November 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
If you don't have the urge to do get into a "normal" relationship, don't bother - without that irrational inbuilt desire I suspect the experience will be unsatisfying for you and upsetting for your (more normal) partner. (I understand this to an extent - I do have the pairing instinct but not the reproductive one.)
There are women who feel the same way as you, you could potentially find one of those and have a loosely-bound lifelong open partnership and get the bits you'll both like without the nonsense you won't.
posted by dickasso at 12:15 AM on November 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think the best reason to seek a long term partner is the desire to share your life.
There are lots of other good reasons to seek a partner. Having a warm body on the other side of the bed is pretty sweet on cold nights. If you like giving footrubs, feet. You get someone who listens when you're upset, and a suddenly enlarged extended family (hey, I like my sisters-in-law). Etc., etc. There are lots of good selfish reasons to want a long term partner.
There are also lots of good selfish reasons to want to live a life apart. Marriage means losing a lot of privacy, and all of those bad habits you're ashamed of will be out on display. Knowing that someone is depending on you can be terrifying. No matter how much you share and struggle through together, your significant other will always be an Other, an occasionally creepy alien presence.
Well, it sounds as though you've done the math. You've told us that the "compromises and responsibilities" of a relationship outweigh the value of what you'd gain. You might be right. Let me try to offer a different perspective.
By "share your life" I mean extending the boundaries of your perceived self far enough that someone else can fit inside. Think of the way you treat your own body. I don't stretch when I'm sore in hopes that my back will reward me later by helping me reach things on a high shelf. I want my back to be happy because it's part of who I am. The things my back wants are the things that I want. Example: I started getting into classical music because my wife likes it. I don't mean that I let myself be dragged along to concerts (also true). I mean that I liked her enjoyment of them. Classical music mattered to me because she mattered to me.
Over a long term relationship, the boundaries between your value systems and worldviews will start to blur. This is why it's a good idea to partner up with someone who you admire -- it can transform you for the better (or her for the worse - whoever said love was safe?).
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:29 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
There are lots of other good reasons to seek a partner. Having a warm body on the other side of the bed is pretty sweet on cold nights. If you like giving footrubs, feet. You get someone who listens when you're upset, and a suddenly enlarged extended family (hey, I like my sisters-in-law). Etc., etc. There are lots of good selfish reasons to want a long term partner.
There are also lots of good selfish reasons to want to live a life apart. Marriage means losing a lot of privacy, and all of those bad habits you're ashamed of will be out on display. Knowing that someone is depending on you can be terrifying. No matter how much you share and struggle through together, your significant other will always be an Other, an occasionally creepy alien presence.
Well, it sounds as though you've done the math. You've told us that the "compromises and responsibilities" of a relationship outweigh the value of what you'd gain. You might be right. Let me try to offer a different perspective.
By "share your life" I mean extending the boundaries of your perceived self far enough that someone else can fit inside. Think of the way you treat your own body. I don't stretch when I'm sore in hopes that my back will reward me later by helping me reach things on a high shelf. I want my back to be happy because it's part of who I am. The things my back wants are the things that I want. Example: I started getting into classical music because my wife likes it. I don't mean that I let myself be dragged along to concerts (also true). I mean that I liked her enjoyment of them. Classical music mattered to me because she mattered to me.
Over a long term relationship, the boundaries between your value systems and worldviews will start to blur. This is why it's a good idea to partner up with someone who you admire -- it can transform you for the better (or her for the worse - whoever said love was safe?).
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:29 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
"I'm 28 and still haven't had a serious long-term relationship. I still don't feel that I want one."
There's your answer. Not everyone needs to be in a relationship and it would be wonderful if a few more people realized that.
Look, if you really want to down the track have a relationship, you will. And you'll deal with that when it happens.
But don't go getting involved with other people when you know your heart's not really in it just to make a couple of other people happy.
posted by mleigh at 12:40 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
There's your answer. Not everyone needs to be in a relationship and it would be wonderful if a few more people realized that.
Look, if you really want to down the track have a relationship, you will. And you'll deal with that when it happens.
But don't go getting involved with other people when you know your heart's not really in it just to make a couple of other people happy.
posted by mleigh at 12:40 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
I think you're overthinking this. Have you ever noticed that phenomenon whereby avoiding something in a deliberate enough way leads to you becoming That Person Who Doesn't Do That Thing, where "not doing that thing" becomes part of your identity rather than simply something you don't do? Sometimes we unwittingly work with others to box ourselves in to these little unnecessary little holes, making it a whole lot harder if and when we ever do wish to do something else. With me, it's wearing dresses - I hate them, my family and friends know I hate them, and it's been this way for so long that if I did one day change my mind it would come at the cost of a lot of "hurf durf dress wearer!" comments from everybody. In a minor but weird way it would actually affect who I am, both in my friends' eyes and my own, so something that was originally just this inconsequential thing I avoided because I don't much care for it has sort of become something where I would actually need to (however slightly) modify my self image in order to do. And that's with something as meaningless as wearing dresses!
Given that you've asked about this twice now (and that you've also apparently been asking your friends to suggest things to help you change your mind?) it sounds like you might have become somewhat invested in being That Guy Who Doesn't Date. Not wanting to date is fine, but I'm not sure that trying to think yourself either into or out of this is very beneficial to you - this doesn't seem like the kind of problem that can be solved in the abstract. I'm sure you know at least some people who are happily partnered. I'm sure you could think of most of the things people will say in favor of relationships. Heck, I could tell you all about the times I used to believe I would be happier single, and yet how unexpectedly, deliriously happy I am in the relationship I'm now in .... but if every person is different and every relationship is different, what good do you think all this will do you?
There isn't a decision you need to make here. If you don't feel like being in a relationship now, that's fine, just don't - it doesn't have to mean you have to declare that relationships aren't for you and that you'll never want one ever. If the only reason you'd be going out with someone right now is just because you feel you ought to give it a try, my advice would be to instead just put this whole thing on the backburner, and maybe let your parents and friends know this is what you're doing for the time being. If someone comes along, great; if you decide you want to start actively looking, great; if you never feel the need for a relationship, great. For now just live your life and let things happen as they will - just be a person, not a Single Person and definitely not That Guy Who Doesn't Date.
posted by DingoMutt at 1:03 AM on November 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Given that you've asked about this twice now (and that you've also apparently been asking your friends to suggest things to help you change your mind?) it sounds like you might have become somewhat invested in being That Guy Who Doesn't Date. Not wanting to date is fine, but I'm not sure that trying to think yourself either into or out of this is very beneficial to you - this doesn't seem like the kind of problem that can be solved in the abstract. I'm sure you know at least some people who are happily partnered. I'm sure you could think of most of the things people will say in favor of relationships. Heck, I could tell you all about the times I used to believe I would be happier single, and yet how unexpectedly, deliriously happy I am in the relationship I'm now in .... but if every person is different and every relationship is different, what good do you think all this will do you?
There isn't a decision you need to make here. If you don't feel like being in a relationship now, that's fine, just don't - it doesn't have to mean you have to declare that relationships aren't for you and that you'll never want one ever. If the only reason you'd be going out with someone right now is just because you feel you ought to give it a try, my advice would be to instead just put this whole thing on the backburner, and maybe let your parents and friends know this is what you're doing for the time being. If someone comes along, great; if you decide you want to start actively looking, great; if you never feel the need for a relationship, great. For now just live your life and let things happen as they will - just be a person, not a Single Person and definitely not That Guy Who Doesn't Date.
posted by DingoMutt at 1:03 AM on November 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
What I want to know is: other than just getting out there and giving dating a shot, are there other ways to understand what I may be missing?
No.
You can get third person accounts which might tell you what it's like for other people to date or be in a relationship. That won't tell you what they had been previously missing or else even if it does, it won't tell you what you may be missing.
And even if you are missing something from your life, there's no guarantee that a relationship will give that to you and at any rate: be careful what you wish for.
When I met my SO I was happy with my life. I continue being happy with my life in a relationship. I wasn't missing anything before and I don't miss anything now. Some of the desires I had before (say for regular sex or a cuddle) are now being met and others are not (say for being able to take off whenever I want and go anywhere).
I know I'm approaching this like a "problem" that needs a "solution", but that's just how I frame things.
Perhaps you need to reframe things. I see no problem needing a solution.
posted by mkdirusername at 2:02 AM on November 14, 2011
No.
You can get third person accounts which might tell you what it's like for other people to date or be in a relationship. That won't tell you what they had been previously missing or else even if it does, it won't tell you what you may be missing.
And even if you are missing something from your life, there's no guarantee that a relationship will give that to you and at any rate: be careful what you wish for.
When I met my SO I was happy with my life. I continue being happy with my life in a relationship. I wasn't missing anything before and I don't miss anything now. Some of the desires I had before (say for regular sex or a cuddle) are now being met and others are not (say for being able to take off whenever I want and go anywhere).
I know I'm approaching this like a "problem" that needs a "solution", but that's just how I frame things.
Perhaps you need to reframe things. I see no problem needing a solution.
posted by mkdirusername at 2:02 AM on November 14, 2011
PS: Also, um, if you haven't looked up the Myers-Briggs system before, it may be helpful, especially the INTP-related stuff (and/or INTJ as well, possibly). I think this is relevant because I'm an INFP and I gave you a very INFP answer. While me & my INTP friends do share an understanding, and actually in my experience INTPs are secretly romantics (but in a more unconscious way), the needs and desires people have are genuinely different and based very much in who they are. Not who they think they are, mind you, but who they really are. In my (somewhat extensive) experience with the INTP type, generally they avoid and/or are happy without relationships, and prize stability (especially emotional stability) very highly; all that stuff about change would be something my INTP friend would get intellectually but wouldn't actually follow up on actively. She's pretty risk-averse and so is every other INTP I've ever met. She's not exactly 'happy' outside a relationship, but only 'cause she's not really a 'happy person', but she's definitely not suffering due to romantic loneliness so much as more generalized isolation, and that only intermittently. I bring this up 'cause no matter what happens, you won't won't turn into like, an INFP even if you do fall in love, etc. No danger of that.
My main experience with INTPs in love (in a happy/long-term stable way) is my mom's husband, who is also a mathematician, and is pretty much the biggest puppy-dog ever. I don't think he's a relationship 'person'-- how can you be when all you care about is pretty much mathematics? But he's very attached to my mom. Even though she's very rational and probably (in practical ways) more so than he is, she loses some status for being a humanities person, but he still really respects her opinion, which is huge for him. More interestingly to me, he's such a softie-- always cooking for her and calling her cute names, etc-- well, a softie for him. I think the fact that he's in his 50s/60s is relevant-- INTPs really mellow (get more comfortable with their emotions) with age, but I also think they're always secretly mellow but very self-protective and vulnerable, thus avoiding over-harsh stimuli. It's the Highly Sensitive Person issue of being easily hurt/startled/overwhelmed and thus avoiding strong inputs, especially emotional ones. I'm like that too, and I'm pretty emotive (though my INTP friend can't tell, haha). All I can say is that apparently, not all emotion has to be like raw sandpaper on your soul or whatever, at least if you trust the person and they're mild in terms of projection. You can be emotive and not project (introverts generally don't). If you asked me what my mom's husband gets from their relationship, it's actually the opportunity to physically take care of someone he cares for (he likes cooking, planning activities/trips and such), someone to talk to (companionship), and someone to expend warm fuzzies on and be fond of. This latter part is the part that might surprise you-- the very presence of warm fuzzies to expend. I actually think INTPs have more of them than us INFPs do. And I do think love changed him into more of himself-- my mom's hubby-- it just made him more truly relaxed and at ease rather than rigidly focused on one thing (mathematics). In general, I've found relaxation to be the thing INTPs gain from interaction that they can't necessarily generate outside a relationship (friendship or otherwise); think of a romantic relationship as an intensification of the friendship warming effect, 'cause you're more vulnerable to a person you care for more, and thus they have more of a capacity to smooth the edges.
posted by reenka at 2:43 AM on November 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
My main experience with INTPs in love (in a happy/long-term stable way) is my mom's husband, who is also a mathematician, and is pretty much the biggest puppy-dog ever. I don't think he's a relationship 'person'-- how can you be when all you care about is pretty much mathematics? But he's very attached to my mom. Even though she's very rational and probably (in practical ways) more so than he is, she loses some status for being a humanities person, but he still really respects her opinion, which is huge for him. More interestingly to me, he's such a softie-- always cooking for her and calling her cute names, etc-- well, a softie for him. I think the fact that he's in his 50s/60s is relevant-- INTPs really mellow (get more comfortable with their emotions) with age, but I also think they're always secretly mellow but very self-protective and vulnerable, thus avoiding over-harsh stimuli. It's the Highly Sensitive Person issue of being easily hurt/startled/overwhelmed and thus avoiding strong inputs, especially emotional ones. I'm like that too, and I'm pretty emotive (though my INTP friend can't tell, haha). All I can say is that apparently, not all emotion has to be like raw sandpaper on your soul or whatever, at least if you trust the person and they're mild in terms of projection. You can be emotive and not project (introverts generally don't). If you asked me what my mom's husband gets from their relationship, it's actually the opportunity to physically take care of someone he cares for (he likes cooking, planning activities/trips and such), someone to talk to (companionship), and someone to expend warm fuzzies on and be fond of. This latter part is the part that might surprise you-- the very presence of warm fuzzies to expend. I actually think INTPs have more of them than us INFPs do. And I do think love changed him into more of himself-- my mom's hubby-- it just made him more truly relaxed and at ease rather than rigidly focused on one thing (mathematics). In general, I've found relaxation to be the thing INTPs gain from interaction that they can't necessarily generate outside a relationship (friendship or otherwise); think of a romantic relationship as an intensification of the friendship warming effect, 'cause you're more vulnerable to a person you care for more, and thus they have more of a capacity to smooth the edges.
posted by reenka at 2:43 AM on November 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
I'm unclear why you're making wanting a relationship a goal if you do not, in fact, want a relationship. You're 28. You may not reach a life stage where that becomes attractive for another 20 years.
You already know you can't logic yourself into feeling something you do not in fact feel. A list of the pros and benefits of LTRs is not likely to help you. If what you're asking is what other people felt when they experienced the desire to form a long term partnership, those answers will be irrelevant because it's different for everyone.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:04 AM on November 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
You already know you can't logic yourself into feeling something you do not in fact feel. A list of the pros and benefits of LTRs is not likely to help you. If what you're asking is what other people felt when they experienced the desire to form a long term partnership, those answers will be irrelevant because it's different for everyone.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:04 AM on November 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hey OP, I'm 33 and still haven't had a serious long-term relationship. I still don't feel that I want one, but if the right person comes along... who knows....
Maybe instead of thinking about "what I may be missing by not seeking a relationship" - what about framing it the other way round? What would you be missing if you were in a relationship? Would you be willing to give that up to have a RS? Personally, I find it very difficult to give up my uber content single lifestyle, but as above, if the right person came along.... who knows :)
posted by TrinsicWS at 4:20 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe instead of thinking about "what I may be missing by not seeking a relationship" - what about framing it the other way round? What would you be missing if you were in a relationship? Would you be willing to give that up to have a RS? Personally, I find it very difficult to give up my uber content single lifestyle, but as above, if the right person came along.... who knows :)
posted by TrinsicWS at 4:20 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Some folks are ivory-towered; they have no idea even how to socialize or talk to other people. You don't seem to have that problem, and that's probably 95% of the battle. Just keep swimming. Either the lightning will strike, or it won't. I agree; don't "settle", and don't get into a relationship to make other people happy. 28 is very young. You only have, oh, forty years or so to make this work, maybe longer.
If you've been running with the same posse for a while, expand your horizons. Do volunteer work for a group that is totally outside your ken. Meet some really different people. You'll either find something you like, or appreciate what you have on a different level.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 4:22 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you've been running with the same posse for a while, expand your horizons. Do volunteer work for a group that is totally outside your ken. Meet some really different people. You'll either find something you like, or appreciate what you have on a different level.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 4:22 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think you're lucky in a way- if you don't want a relationship you may end up in one anyway, by accident! Isn't that what many self-help books say? Don't worry about not wanting to be in one, that's fine. It's when you want to be in one and can't find someone who wants to be with you that it becomes a problem!
posted by bquarters at 4:56 AM on November 14, 2011
posted by bquarters at 4:56 AM on November 14, 2011
I think that only noticing emotional support is overlooking the majority of what you gain.
You're stranded on a moon. It will be five days until the rescue ship arrives. If no-one stands guard, hostile aliens will eat you. You haven't slept for two days, and you've run out of coffee.
This happens more often than you think (metaphorically :-)
Life is challenging. It's about an army of two kicking ass and taking names in situations where an army of one will simply get massacred.
Doors are opened because you can coordinate yourselves to be able to take advantage of opportunities that neither of you could access if alone and too busy doing everything yourself.
Yeah, some other doors will be harder to fit through with two, but the future will be rough. There is no better preparation than to be part of an elite team, to have drilled and trained together for years, to know intimately how to work together and how to be stronger than the sum of the parts.
Plus, people won't bug you about finding someone.
posted by -harlequin- at 5:30 AM on November 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
You're stranded on a moon. It will be five days until the rescue ship arrives. If no-one stands guard, hostile aliens will eat you. You haven't slept for two days, and you've run out of coffee.
This happens more often than you think (metaphorically :-)
Life is challenging. It's about an army of two kicking ass and taking names in situations where an army of one will simply get massacred.
Doors are opened because you can coordinate yourselves to be able to take advantage of opportunities that neither of you could access if alone and too busy doing everything yourself.
Yeah, some other doors will be harder to fit through with two, but the future will be rough. There is no better preparation than to be part of an elite team, to have drilled and trained together for years, to know intimately how to work together and how to be stronger than the sum of the parts.
Plus, people won't bug you about finding someone.
posted by -harlequin- at 5:30 AM on November 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm more on your side than your parents' side -- but even more than that, I don't think you should be making a conscious decision here with long-term implications.
The reason to have a long-term relationship is that you meet someone you want to be with. The idea that you should get relationship experience under your belt so that you'll have relationship knowledge and skills when you do meet that woman doesn't apply because if you don't care about your relationship with Relationship Practice Girl (which, incidentally, is unfair to her as a person), you won't really work at it when there are challenges -- depriving you of developing that relationship knowledge and those relationship skills.
What gives me pause is the possibility that you've sort of decided, Hey, I'm a self-sufficient person and there is no rational reason for me to need a long term relationship -- so for that reason I don't want one. If you're actually convincing yourself that you don't want one and therefore not being open to the possibility, maybe you actually would want one if you were open to it.
This ties into my larger point, which is that you shouldn't make this a Thing. Don't make a decision about whether you're a relationship guy. If you don't want a relationship now, you don't want a relationship now. If you meet someone you get all twitterpated about, someone you want to be with and not not-with, approach that on its own terms and not based on preconceived notions about whether in theory you want a relationship.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:47 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
The reason to have a long-term relationship is that you meet someone you want to be with. The idea that you should get relationship experience under your belt so that you'll have relationship knowledge and skills when you do meet that woman doesn't apply because if you don't care about your relationship with Relationship Practice Girl (which, incidentally, is unfair to her as a person), you won't really work at it when there are challenges -- depriving you of developing that relationship knowledge and those relationship skills.
What gives me pause is the possibility that you've sort of decided, Hey, I'm a self-sufficient person and there is no rational reason for me to need a long term relationship -- so for that reason I don't want one. If you're actually convincing yourself that you don't want one and therefore not being open to the possibility, maybe you actually would want one if you were open to it.
This ties into my larger point, which is that you shouldn't make this a Thing. Don't make a decision about whether you're a relationship guy. If you don't want a relationship now, you don't want a relationship now. If you meet someone you get all twitterpated about, someone you want to be with and not not-with, approach that on its own terms and not based on preconceived notions about whether in theory you want a relationship.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:47 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
There are a number of different ways to live your life. Maybe you could be like Paul Erdos.
Or how about:
"Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question. This question is one that only a very old man asks. My benefactor told me about it once when I was young, and my blood was too vigorous for me to understand it. Now I do understand it. I will tell you what it is: Does this path have a heart? All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long, long paths, but I am not anywhere. My benefactor’s question has meaning now. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn’t, it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn’t. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you."
-Carlos Castadena
Or to summarize:
"Do What Cha Like" - Humpty Hump.
Wisdom.
posted by Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night at 7:20 AM on November 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Or how about:
"Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question. This question is one that only a very old man asks. My benefactor told me about it once when I was young, and my blood was too vigorous for me to understand it. Now I do understand it. I will tell you what it is: Does this path have a heart? All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long, long paths, but I am not anywhere. My benefactor’s question has meaning now. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn’t, it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn’t. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you."
-Carlos Castadena
Or to summarize:
"Do What Cha Like" - Humpty Hump.
Wisdom.
posted by Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night at 7:20 AM on November 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I have many many friends who, when we were younger, walked around saying things like this all the time. You know what happened? Most of them simply met someone they wanted to be in a relationship with, and then things changed. End of story.
It's not a logic puzzle to be solved, or a theoretical conundrum to be reasoned through in a vacuum. It just isn't. This concept freaks out many of my more analytical friends - but it's true. One day, you'll get to know someone and just think, "Huh. That person is kinda neat." And soon you will find yourself wanting to hang out with him or her more. And maybe even do some things you wouldn't ordinarily do (I mean, like go to a modern art museum when that's not your favorite thing) to be closer to that person and to see a smile. And maybe get a kiss. And then maybe roll over in the morning and see that person's face when you wake up in the morning, and instead of freaking out, you feel content. Like you'd do anything to keep that going. And suddenly, you're learning about what it's like to value another person over your own needs. It's not just about you anymore. You're in a relationship.
If you haven't found a person like this, or you don't want to right now, that is absolutely FINE. That is not a character flaw or a huge problem. You may very well change your mind later in life, or you will not. What matters is that you are happy with your choices and yourself.
I will say that, as we get older, life does get a little ... lonelier. Social groups of friends or communities based on shared interests tend to give way to couples and families. There have been lots of good discussions about this on AskMeFi, but I think it's still true in our society at large. My SO is my teammate. We're on a TEAM that we think is pretty awesome. We tackle each other's problems TOGETHER. The benefits of this, for me, far outweigh the drawbacks.
Not everyone needs this level of emotional support, and not everyone feels the abstract, metaphysical benefits of being in a relationship. It's not a requirement. But one day it may blindside you. And if it doesn't, and you don't want it to, then you haven't lost anything.
posted by bookgirl18 at 7:36 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's not a logic puzzle to be solved, or a theoretical conundrum to be reasoned through in a vacuum. It just isn't. This concept freaks out many of my more analytical friends - but it's true. One day, you'll get to know someone and just think, "Huh. That person is kinda neat." And soon you will find yourself wanting to hang out with him or her more. And maybe even do some things you wouldn't ordinarily do (I mean, like go to a modern art museum when that's not your favorite thing) to be closer to that person and to see a smile. And maybe get a kiss. And then maybe roll over in the morning and see that person's face when you wake up in the morning, and instead of freaking out, you feel content. Like you'd do anything to keep that going. And suddenly, you're learning about what it's like to value another person over your own needs. It's not just about you anymore. You're in a relationship.
If you haven't found a person like this, or you don't want to right now, that is absolutely FINE. That is not a character flaw or a huge problem. You may very well change your mind later in life, or you will not. What matters is that you are happy with your choices and yourself.
I will say that, as we get older, life does get a little ... lonelier. Social groups of friends or communities based on shared interests tend to give way to couples and families. There have been lots of good discussions about this on AskMeFi, but I think it's still true in our society at large. My SO is my teammate. We're on a TEAM that we think is pretty awesome. We tackle each other's problems TOGETHER. The benefits of this, for me, far outweigh the drawbacks.
Not everyone needs this level of emotional support, and not everyone feels the abstract, metaphysical benefits of being in a relationship. It's not a requirement. But one day it may blindside you. And if it doesn't, and you don't want it to, then you haven't lost anything.
posted by bookgirl18 at 7:36 AM on November 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
If I end up becoming more certain in my lack of need for a life partner, I don't want it to be because I was wearing blinders or avoiding growth.
We're all wearing blinders and avoiding growth to some extent. It's only by limiting what we look at that we aren't overwhelmed and we choose these limits without thinking about the process. There's always an aspect of how we do this that is self protective which can make it feel dangerous to modify (or, if we protect ourselves against that feeling of danger, absurd to modify.)
Other people provide a loop hole in that they don't necessarily share our axioms or imagine their undefined terms the same way we do. Others who suggest you're missing something may do so because the culture tells them it's so, or because their differing perspectives (i.e. blinders) allows them to see this.
Not needing emotional support could mean that your blinders don't allow you to see your needs. This is often considered a good thing and conceptualized differently (so as to sound like a good thing) but in my experience is seldom permanent.
maybe I'll awaken some part of me that I've unknowingly been hiding or ignoring.
If we consider ourselves rational, this can only be discovered after the fact and those who suggest this is the case are, from a logical positivist standpoint, spouting nonsense. From my standpoint, thinking you're predominately rational is the result of locking yourself inside a conceptual cage. Your system may be consistent but is incomplete.
But from a practical standpoint, if you like things the way they are, there is nothing to be done about it that won't, at least temporarily, make things worse, and there's no real motivation to do so.
On preview, what bookgirl18 describes is a likely trajectory for you.
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:50 AM on November 14, 2011
We're all wearing blinders and avoiding growth to some extent. It's only by limiting what we look at that we aren't overwhelmed and we choose these limits without thinking about the process. There's always an aspect of how we do this that is self protective which can make it feel dangerous to modify (or, if we protect ourselves against that feeling of danger, absurd to modify.)
Other people provide a loop hole in that they don't necessarily share our axioms or imagine their undefined terms the same way we do. Others who suggest you're missing something may do so because the culture tells them it's so, or because their differing perspectives (i.e. blinders) allows them to see this.
Not needing emotional support could mean that your blinders don't allow you to see your needs. This is often considered a good thing and conceptualized differently (so as to sound like a good thing) but in my experience is seldom permanent.
maybe I'll awaken some part of me that I've unknowingly been hiding or ignoring.
If we consider ourselves rational, this can only be discovered after the fact and those who suggest this is the case are, from a logical positivist standpoint, spouting nonsense. From my standpoint, thinking you're predominately rational is the result of locking yourself inside a conceptual cage. Your system may be consistent but is incomplete.
But from a practical standpoint, if you like things the way they are, there is nothing to be done about it that won't, at least temporarily, make things worse, and there's no real motivation to do so.
On preview, what bookgirl18 describes is a likely trajectory for you.
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:50 AM on November 14, 2011
Do you remember this episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation? I think it accurately predicts how things will go for you if you attempt a relationship in your current state of mind. If your emotion chip isn't functioning right now, it's cool, go do some paintings or play the violin or feed your cat. No romance necessary. Geez.
posted by milk white peacock at 9:18 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by milk white peacock at 9:18 AM on November 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think you're posing the same question here as you did in your previous post. Previously you said, "Will I suddenly one day realize that I've been missing out, feel a burning to have a girlfriend, and become more "normal?"" And in this post you're asking (among other things) is, "Am I missing out by not having an LTR?" "If I do x will I understand what I'm missing?" I find it interesting that "missing" is present in both posts. Do you feel like something (anything, not just stuff related to an LTR) is missing in your life?
What also first came to mind after reading your post was, it sounds like you want to want a relationship. Would you say this is accurate? If I'm somewhat on the mark, it sounds like you want to have this want to be more "normal" because in your first post you associate this feeling of missing out as being normal, and in this post, you acknowledge the influence of parents and some friends. It's almost like this feeling of missing out is missing for you and it's like you want to confirm that you are missing out (i.e. by getting out there give dating a shot). In effect, you want to create this feeling of missing out? If that is true, why?
You feel that you don't want an LTR. That's fine. No, really. But I would want to explore where your parents and friends are coming from when they say that you're doing yourself a disservice by not trying to have one. Yet it sounds like you still want to explore what this LTR business is all about, as if to re-examine your position on relationships? If that's the case, a good place to start is: what is your position on relationships? On you having a relationship?
So here are some parts of your position: "I have the idea that relationships are largely about offering each other emotional support, and possibly because I feel I don't need that, I don't seek a partner who does either." "I do recognize the comfort of just having someone there. Perhaps just not enough to be excited about the various compromises and responsibilities that go with it." This is a good starting point to understanding where you are at with relationships. If that's what you understand relationships to be (offering each other emotional support), and you don't need that support, then I see nothing wrong with this viewpoint. I have a different view for myself, but that's me, right? You know there is comfort of having someone there. I don't think anyone gets excited at the compromising and responsibility part of relationships; it's part of the territory of healthy relationships. Being able to compromise, taking responsibility for your feelings and actions, is part of any relationship, not just romantic ones.
If you feel your life is fulfilling, I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to explore the experience of having relationships more, to learn more about yourself, I see nothing wrong with that either. But don't feel like you're "missing" something or feel like you have to feel like you're missing something.
I myself have struggled a lot with the idea of me having a relationship. Due to parental messaging, societal messaging, low self-esteem, shame, etc. I hated the idea of relationships and the pressure to be in one. These were the issues (and more) that I had to work on. The question that I started with was, "Why? Why do people want to be in relationships?" I read a lot of relationship books and learned what relationships were about. I learned that a relationship can be another way to learn about yourself, can be important to your growth, and that people need to be with each other (in healthy ways). This all sounded reasonable to me. Along with the low self-esteem that I had, fear of intimacy came with that. I wanted a relationship to show the world that I was "normal" and not weird, but I couldn't stand the idea of being thatclose to someone and showing who I was. I worked through this in therapy, read books, had relationship experiences. Throughout this journey of dealing with my issues, I became more confident that I could be capable of a healthy relationship and eventually was able to honestly say, "I want a healthy relationship." I figured that going online would probably be the best way for me to find one, so that's what I did. So for me it wasn't about "learning to want an LTR" although in some ways I did. It was more about learning what healthy relationships are about and allowing myself the choice to be in one. Because before, I had no idea what a healthy relationship was. I didn't know they existed! Before I also felt that I HAD to be in a relationship. The idea was just abhorrent to me, because of what I understood relationships to be (I only had models of dysfunctional relationships in my head, so I'd think "Why would I want that?"). FWIW, the book that impacted me the most was in Chapter 6 of Escape from Intimacy. I don't know if it'll resonate for you as it did for me.
Anyway, it doesn't seem like you have a similar attitude towards relationships. I only relate my story to say, if you want to explore further this idea of you having a relationship, you might have to look into the things you learned about relationships (from family, peers, society) and your relationship to yourself in order to eventually develop a healthy relationship with someone else. And learn more about relationships/intimacy. In other words, there's no shortcut. But this is only if you want to. If you don't want to, that's totally legit too.
posted by foxjacket at 3:16 PM on November 14, 2011
What also first came to mind after reading your post was, it sounds like you want to want a relationship. Would you say this is accurate? If I'm somewhat on the mark, it sounds like you want to have this want to be more "normal" because in your first post you associate this feeling of missing out as being normal, and in this post, you acknowledge the influence of parents and some friends. It's almost like this feeling of missing out is missing for you and it's like you want to confirm that you are missing out (i.e. by getting out there give dating a shot). In effect, you want to create this feeling of missing out? If that is true, why?
You feel that you don't want an LTR. That's fine. No, really. But I would want to explore where your parents and friends are coming from when they say that you're doing yourself a disservice by not trying to have one. Yet it sounds like you still want to explore what this LTR business is all about, as if to re-examine your position on relationships? If that's the case, a good place to start is: what is your position on relationships? On you having a relationship?
So here are some parts of your position: "I have the idea that relationships are largely about offering each other emotional support, and possibly because I feel I don't need that, I don't seek a partner who does either." "I do recognize the comfort of just having someone there. Perhaps just not enough to be excited about the various compromises and responsibilities that go with it." This is a good starting point to understanding where you are at with relationships. If that's what you understand relationships to be (offering each other emotional support), and you don't need that support, then I see nothing wrong with this viewpoint. I have a different view for myself, but that's me, right? You know there is comfort of having someone there. I don't think anyone gets excited at the compromising and responsibility part of relationships; it's part of the territory of healthy relationships. Being able to compromise, taking responsibility for your feelings and actions, is part of any relationship, not just romantic ones.
If you feel your life is fulfilling, I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to explore the experience of having relationships more, to learn more about yourself, I see nothing wrong with that either. But don't feel like you're "missing" something or feel like you have to feel like you're missing something.
I myself have struggled a lot with the idea of me having a relationship. Due to parental messaging, societal messaging, low self-esteem, shame, etc. I hated the idea of relationships and the pressure to be in one. These were the issues (and more) that I had to work on. The question that I started with was, "Why? Why do people want to be in relationships?" I read a lot of relationship books and learned what relationships were about. I learned that a relationship can be another way to learn about yourself, can be important to your growth, and that people need to be with each other (in healthy ways). This all sounded reasonable to me. Along with the low self-esteem that I had, fear of intimacy came with that. I wanted a relationship to show the world that I was "normal" and not weird, but I couldn't stand the idea of being thatclose to someone and showing who I was. I worked through this in therapy, read books, had relationship experiences. Throughout this journey of dealing with my issues, I became more confident that I could be capable of a healthy relationship and eventually was able to honestly say, "I want a healthy relationship." I figured that going online would probably be the best way for me to find one, so that's what I did. So for me it wasn't about "learning to want an LTR" although in some ways I did. It was more about learning what healthy relationships are about and allowing myself the choice to be in one. Because before, I had no idea what a healthy relationship was. I didn't know they existed! Before I also felt that I HAD to be in a relationship. The idea was just abhorrent to me, because of what I understood relationships to be (I only had models of dysfunctional relationships in my head, so I'd think "Why would I want that?"). FWIW, the book that impacted me the most was in Chapter 6 of Escape from Intimacy. I don't know if it'll resonate for you as it did for me.
Anyway, it doesn't seem like you have a similar attitude towards relationships. I only relate my story to say, if you want to explore further this idea of you having a relationship, you might have to look into the things you learned about relationships (from family, peers, society) and your relationship to yourself in order to eventually develop a healthy relationship with someone else. And learn more about relationships/intimacy. In other words, there's no shortcut. But this is only if you want to. If you don't want to, that's totally legit too.
posted by foxjacket at 3:16 PM on November 14, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks, great feedback so far! Some more useful and less useful tidbits:
More useful:
- The Elite Team on the moon analogy
I really like that image. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. The kinds of things that are not obvious from watching others interact, but that are nonetheless common. There are synergies that I won't understand til I've experienced them, but even hearing them described is great.
- Don't make yourself That Guy Who Doesn't Wanna Date
I think sometimes I do pigeonhole myself, and it's not useful.
- "I will say that, as we get older, life does get a little ... lonelier."
Even reminders that my friends will start to have less time to hang out as they spend more time with families is useful. Not saying that's a reason to date, but maybe it's reason to question my claim that I'll never get lonely.
Less useful:
- Don't worry
I'm not (yet) :)
- Nothing can even give you hints about what it's like
This is true of every experience.
posted by Talisman at 3:32 PM on November 14, 2011
More useful:
- The Elite Team on the moon analogy
I really like that image. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. The kinds of things that are not obvious from watching others interact, but that are nonetheless common. There are synergies that I won't understand til I've experienced them, but even hearing them described is great.
- Don't make yourself That Guy Who Doesn't Wanna Date
I think sometimes I do pigeonhole myself, and it's not useful.
- "I will say that, as we get older, life does get a little ... lonelier."
Even reminders that my friends will start to have less time to hang out as they spend more time with families is useful. Not saying that's a reason to date, but maybe it's reason to question my claim that I'll never get lonely.
Less useful:
- Don't worry
I'm not (yet) :)
- Nothing can even give you hints about what it's like
This is true of every experience.
posted by Talisman at 3:32 PM on November 14, 2011
I am a scientist and my partner is an artist. She's the right brain, I'm the left brain, so together we are a whole brain! She has given me new eyes with which to see the world. And I have done the same for her. I give her roots, she gives me wings.
posted by kamikazegopher at 8:13 PM on November 14, 2011
posted by kamikazegopher at 8:13 PM on November 14, 2011
I am a scientist and my partner is an artist. She's the right brain, I'm the left brain, so together we are a whole brain! She has given me new eyes with which to see the world. And I have done the same for her. I give her roots, she gives me wings.
This might be the best thing I've ever read on AskMeFi.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 8:33 AM on November 15, 2011
This might be the best thing I've ever read on AskMeFi.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 8:33 AM on November 15, 2011
Response by poster: Dude. What are you doing? You alluded to it in your thread a year ago, you did it above, and you are doing it now.
Why are you critiquing advice you are getting? Why are you critiquing women who may or may not be interested in you?
My bad. I thought I was clarifying my question, but reading back on it, there was no reason to point out what I thought was "less useful." All of this feedback is great.
I'll think about this "critiquing girls" bit too. Other than offering fashion advice to a friend (from the previous thread), I don't know where I do this, but sounds like it's worth a think. Thanks.
And FWIW, that last thread did help, and this one is helping too. I've caught myself self-labeling as the non-dating guy more than once already :)
posted by Talisman at 9:36 PM on November 15, 2011
Why are you critiquing advice you are getting? Why are you critiquing women who may or may not be interested in you?
My bad. I thought I was clarifying my question, but reading back on it, there was no reason to point out what I thought was "less useful." All of this feedback is great.
I'll think about this "critiquing girls" bit too. Other than offering fashion advice to a friend (from the previous thread), I don't know where I do this, but sounds like it's worth a think. Thanks.
And FWIW, that last thread did help, and this one is helping too. I've caught myself self-labeling as the non-dating guy more than once already :)
posted by Talisman at 9:36 PM on November 15, 2011
I think you're thinking about this the wrong way.
It's not about "wanting a relationship" or "not wanting a relationship" in the abstract.
It's about wanting a relationship with a particular person.
If you haven't yet found a person you want to have a relationship with, you won't yet see any point in being in a relationship.
As a mathematician, you're probably familiar with the "black swan" problem of inductive reasoning. If you've seen a hundred swans in your life and they're all white, that does not prove that all swans are white: the hundred-and-first could be a black swan.
In this case, the woman you want a relationship with is the black swan. So far you have not found one. But that does not logically prove one does not exist.
Now, you say you like sex and have friends. Women are well aware that most of the men that they find on a dating site, are far more likely to want casual sex than a long-term relationship. Why not just go onto a dating site, check the "friends", "casual sex" and "long term relationship" boxes in the "looking for" section, and just see what happens? Or find some fun/useful activity which also happens to include the chance to meet more women?
Maybe with the increased number of observations, you will find that the black swan exists, and there really is a woman you want to have a relationship with. Maybe you'll get sex or make more friends. Either way, you're getting a benefit.
The search for the black swan doesn't have to be a dull chore with no other benefits: there are other things you can gain from getting to know women better.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:22 AM on November 16, 2011
It's not about "wanting a relationship" or "not wanting a relationship" in the abstract.
It's about wanting a relationship with a particular person.
If you haven't yet found a person you want to have a relationship with, you won't yet see any point in being in a relationship.
As a mathematician, you're probably familiar with the "black swan" problem of inductive reasoning. If you've seen a hundred swans in your life and they're all white, that does not prove that all swans are white: the hundred-and-first could be a black swan.
In this case, the woman you want a relationship with is the black swan. So far you have not found one. But that does not logically prove one does not exist.
Now, you say you like sex and have friends. Women are well aware that most of the men that they find on a dating site, are far more likely to want casual sex than a long-term relationship. Why not just go onto a dating site, check the "friends", "casual sex" and "long term relationship" boxes in the "looking for" section, and just see what happens? Or find some fun/useful activity which also happens to include the chance to meet more women?
Maybe with the increased number of observations, you will find that the black swan exists, and there really is a woman you want to have a relationship with. Maybe you'll get sex or make more friends. Either way, you're getting a benefit.
The search for the black swan doesn't have to be a dull chore with no other benefits: there are other things you can gain from getting to know women better.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:22 AM on November 16, 2011
Response by poster: An update: in February I moved to NYC. I met more girls in a month there than I did in a year in Seattle. And within 2 months I chanced into a beautiful, sweet, smart girl... at a party, no less.
We've been together ever since that night, and if you told me this a year ago (just noticed this question was exactly one year ago!) I'd never have believed it.
For years, I had heard that the East coast has an excess of women compared to men (opposite of the West coast), and thus it was *much* easier for guys to meet girls there. I didn't quite believe it, but I gave it a shot anyway. It is true.
posted by Talisman at 4:51 PM on November 13, 2012 [2 favorites]
We've been together ever since that night, and if you told me this a year ago (just noticed this question was exactly one year ago!) I'd never have believed it.
For years, I had heard that the East coast has an excess of women compared to men (opposite of the West coast), and thus it was *much* easier for guys to meet girls there. I didn't quite believe it, but I gave it a shot anyway. It is true.
posted by Talisman at 4:51 PM on November 13, 2012 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 11:14 PM on November 13, 2011