Secondhand Smoke in Chicago
November 10, 2011 7:41 AM Subscribe
Any experience in Chicago with resolving secondhand smoke disputes? The neighbor across the hall in the condo I live in smokes incessantly when she is in town. I have reported that the smoke bothers me via the building management, but the smoke from her unit has only increased. It fills the hallway, as well as the unit I am renting.
I went through cancer treatment about a year ago, so I am particularly sensitive to cigarette smoke now. I experience headaches and nausea from the smoke. My unit smells like smoke-furniture, clothes, towels, etc. I am worried I will get cancer again.
I tried to seal the front door, but am not sure if I have done it the best way. (I'm not too handy.) I am also looking into filing a complaint with the department of public health. I live in a private high-rise residence; however, a good portion of the building is used for short-term corporate and vacation rentals. My neighbor owns her unit.
Thanks for any ideas.
Although you may eventually be able to resolve this, I am concerned about your health and your day to day experience in the meantime. Since you are renting, the best thing to do may be to cut your losses and just move.
It really sucks to go through the inconvenience and expense of moving if you are in the right and she is in the wrong, but your health and well-being are simply too important to risk.
posted by insectosaurus at 7:56 AM on November 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
It really sucks to go through the inconvenience and expense of moving if you are in the right and she is in the wrong, but your health and well-being are simply too important to risk.
posted by insectosaurus at 7:56 AM on November 10, 2011 [3 favorites]
Take it to your condo board. The correct terminology you want to use is that the smoke "encroaches onto the common areas and into your living space." If they choose to investigate they'll probably compel her to get fans and air purifiers for her own unit.
Most condo association bylaws (check yours, since you're an owner) contain a prohibition on nuisances. My association defines a nuisance as "an unreasonable, unwarranted or unlawful use of one's property that invades the use and enjoyment of the property."
posted by juniperesque at 7:57 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Most condo association bylaws (check yours, since you're an owner) contain a prohibition on nuisances. My association defines a nuisance as "an unreasonable, unwarranted or unlawful use of one's property that invades the use and enjoyment of the property."
posted by juniperesque at 7:57 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Have you actually talked to your neighbor politely and explained your situation?
posted by shivohum at 8:00 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by shivohum at 8:00 AM on November 10, 2011
Oh, I misread that, I thought you were an owner.
You are going to have to talk to whoever your landlord is - if it's a private owner just renting to you, they may be willing or able to help you. But if it's the building and they've already been unresponsive, you may be out of luck. Condo bylaws protect the owners. Renters generally get the shaft.
posted by juniperesque at 8:01 AM on November 10, 2011
You are going to have to talk to whoever your landlord is - if it's a private owner just renting to you, they may be willing or able to help you. But if it's the building and they've already been unresponsive, you may be out of luck. Condo bylaws protect the owners. Renters generally get the shaft.
posted by juniperesque at 8:01 AM on November 10, 2011
I know that this is serious for you and I'm not being flip but smoking is still legal and if the building is not non-smoking I'm not sure how much legal leg you have to stand on. I'm not familiar with apartment hunting in Chicago but in the DC area where I live more and more apartments are advertised as non-smoking only and that the bldg is non-smoking. I know moving is a pain and expensive but it might be worth not just moving, but making sure that you move into a smoke-free building.
posted by kaybdc at 8:05 AM on November 10, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by kaybdc at 8:05 AM on November 10, 2011 [10 favorites]
It would probably be less hassle for you to move than for you to try to get her to stop smoking you out. The stress of trying to battle this will be more harmful to you than the secondhand smoke. If I were you, I would focus my attention on moving to a non-smoking building.
In the meantime, scented candles. They work wonders for reducing cigarette smoke odors. Keep all your clothes in drawers or closets with the door firmly shut, and put potpourri in there with them. Febreeze. Roll up a towel and stuff it firmly under the front door, maybe even hang a heavy curtain or sheet over the door as well, if possible.
Good luck.
posted by Koko at 8:19 AM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
In the meantime, scented candles. They work wonders for reducing cigarette smoke odors. Keep all your clothes in drawers or closets with the door firmly shut, and put potpourri in there with them. Febreeze. Roll up a towel and stuff it firmly under the front door, maybe even hang a heavy curtain or sheet over the door as well, if possible.
Good luck.
posted by Koko at 8:19 AM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Talk to your landlord, talk to the condo board. Smokers lower property value, which is the biggest issue for those guys, so if you can phrase it that way you might get further. If this is a kid-friendly condo complex, this argument might carry further.
Also, you might want to look in to whether this is a good enough reason to break your lease. (IANYL, TINLA.)
You shouldn't have to live in a unit where ventilation gets crossed and you're smelling your neighbor's smoke. I understand that a person has a right to smoke it her own home, but that doesn't mean that neighbors have to suffer because of it, whether or not you have recently undergone cancer treatment. In this day and age, I think that the secondhand smoke might be considered a legal nuisance.
IANYL, TINLA, but here's a link (not vetted entirely!) that discusses general steps to take with a neighbor who's creating a nuisance, which may or may not apply to you. Note that the first step is talking to the neighbor directly.
By the way, I know and hang out with a bunch of smokers. They are usually good at attempting to redirect their smoke these days, meaning they are usually good at attempting to prevent smoke from spreading to places where smoke shouldn't be. You and your neighbor can probably come up with a good solution.
Otherwise, fucking inconsiderate smokers.
posted by jabberjaw at 8:22 AM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, you might want to look in to whether this is a good enough reason to break your lease. (IANYL, TINLA.)
You shouldn't have to live in a unit where ventilation gets crossed and you're smelling your neighbor's smoke. I understand that a person has a right to smoke it her own home, but that doesn't mean that neighbors have to suffer because of it, whether or not you have recently undergone cancer treatment. In this day and age, I think that the secondhand smoke might be considered a legal nuisance.
IANYL, TINLA, but here's a link (not vetted entirely!) that discusses general steps to take with a neighbor who's creating a nuisance, which may or may not apply to you. Note that the first step is talking to the neighbor directly.
By the way, I know and hang out with a bunch of smokers. They are usually good at attempting to redirect their smoke these days, meaning they are usually good at attempting to prevent smoke from spreading to places where smoke shouldn't be. You and your neighbor can probably come up with a good solution.
Otherwise, fucking inconsiderate smokers.
posted by jabberjaw at 8:22 AM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
FWIW, I am a Chicago smoker. While I can understand your concerns, I think you might be over-reacting to this. I am sure you can "smell" the smoke, but I doubt that it is actually filling the hallway. In my home, I keep my smoking to the backroom mancave, and even wih the door open, you can't smell, much less see it in the rest of the house.
Putting myself in her shoes, I would try to be nice, but in the same respect I would think I own my home here for better or worse, and I'm sorry, I am not going to go down how many ever floors and stand outside in the winter to have a cig because the person across the hall doesn't like it.
Koko kind of nailed it. Do what you can to ameliorate the smell if it bothers you. In the long run, the health concerns from second hand smoke are probably no worse than standing at a bus stop going to work. (Awaiting the on rush of folks with links to studies telling me I am wrong.)
In the meantime, she owns her home, and she can smoke in it if she wants. Not being snide or anything, but I think the problem is yours, not hers, and you should try to find another place to live, one that comes with a no smoking clause in the lease, if such places even exist.
I wish you well, but cut us smokers some slack eh? We're killing ourselves as fast as we can.
posted by timsteil at 8:31 AM on November 10, 2011 [5 favorites]
Putting myself in her shoes, I would try to be nice, but in the same respect I would think I own my home here for better or worse, and I'm sorry, I am not going to go down how many ever floors and stand outside in the winter to have a cig because the person across the hall doesn't like it.
Koko kind of nailed it. Do what you can to ameliorate the smell if it bothers you. In the long run, the health concerns from second hand smoke are probably no worse than standing at a bus stop going to work. (Awaiting the on rush of folks with links to studies telling me I am wrong.)
In the meantime, she owns her home, and she can smoke in it if she wants. Not being snide or anything, but I think the problem is yours, not hers, and you should try to find another place to live, one that comes with a no smoking clause in the lease, if such places even exist.
I wish you well, but cut us smokers some slack eh? We're killing ourselves as fast as we can.
posted by timsteil at 8:31 AM on November 10, 2011 [5 favorites]
If moving is not an option what about trying to get the landlord to get both you and her air purifiers? Get her one to hopefully stop the smoke from getting into your place before it is an issue and get one for your apartment to "catch" any remaining smoke and smoke odor that manages to escape from her place. If you can, you might want to fully clean your apartment (walls, floors, every surface). Since it is stop-gap housing and probably has seen a lot of turnover, it is likely that previous tenants smoked in your current apartment and there might be residual odor that is adding to whatever smoke is seeping in from your neighbor.
posted by kaybdc at 8:38 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by kaybdc at 8:38 AM on November 10, 2011
+1 for moving.
However, that's not always practical. It sounds like the smoke is moving into your unit. In newer buildings, a building will have positive pressure hallway ventilation to make sure that smoke and cooking smells don't move from the units into the hall. If this isn't how your building is setup, then one way to combat this is to make your home have a positive air pressure. You want the air to be coming in from outside, and then drafting into the hallway. This means that smoke doesn't come in from the hallway, only air moving out.
So - in the spring and fall, this can be as simple as fan in a window drawing in air. In the summer if you have a window unit air conditioner, make sure it's set to draw fresh air. In the winter... I could see this being a little harder depending on your heating system. But it's something to thing about.
If you do move, a rental ozonator can help remove those smoking odors from materials that you can't wash.
posted by tumble at 8:45 AM on November 10, 2011
However, that's not always practical. It sounds like the smoke is moving into your unit. In newer buildings, a building will have positive pressure hallway ventilation to make sure that smoke and cooking smells don't move from the units into the hall. If this isn't how your building is setup, then one way to combat this is to make your home have a positive air pressure. You want the air to be coming in from outside, and then drafting into the hallway. This means that smoke doesn't come in from the hallway, only air moving out.
So - in the spring and fall, this can be as simple as fan in a window drawing in air. In the summer if you have a window unit air conditioner, make sure it's set to draw fresh air. In the winter... I could see this being a little harder depending on your heating system. But it's something to thing about.
If you do move, a rental ozonator can help remove those smoking odors from materials that you can't wash.
posted by tumble at 8:45 AM on November 10, 2011
Mod note: wuth respect folks, do not rehash all the smokers v non-smokers arguments. Answer the OPs question, take everything else to MeMail or elsewhere, thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:10 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:10 AM on November 10, 2011
My understanding is the "scents" in products like febreeze and stuff aren't all that good for you, either. And I don't see what good covering it up is since cigarette smoke is harmful!
(secret smoker here, btw.)
There are ionizers and air purifiers that do work, most are professional grade. My hairdresser uses one to deal with toxic fumes in her salon. No brand recommendations, just google around.
I recently saw this from Samsung and I think it looks brilliant AND affordable, much cheaper than moving! (there is a smaller version for $150 to $200 that cleans 200 sq feet, if you put it by you front door - problem solved, I think.)
I would try this before moving or getting on anyone's bad side. You rent in a condo building. This just may be your best path.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 9:26 AM on November 10, 2011
(secret smoker here, btw.)
There are ionizers and air purifiers that do work, most are professional grade. My hairdresser uses one to deal with toxic fumes in her salon. No brand recommendations, just google around.
I recently saw this from Samsung and I think it looks brilliant AND affordable, much cheaper than moving! (there is a smaller version for $150 to $200 that cleans 200 sq feet, if you put it by you front door - problem solved, I think.)
I would try this before moving or getting on anyone's bad side. You rent in a condo building. This just may be your best path.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 9:26 AM on November 10, 2011
I am a landlord in Chicago (but not your landlord--I'm also an attorney, but not your attorney) and this is, unfortunately, one place where your interests and the landlord's (assuming the LL is just a person who owns this condo and rents it out rather than lives in it or sells it) really diverge. If smoking is allowed in the private areas of the building; if the neighbor is only smoking in the private areas of the building, there is little your landlord could do and not much (s)he will want to do. Private owners in condo buildings who want to lease out their condos do so with the permission of the association--making problems with resident owners is a great way to lose the permission to lease your condo.
The RLTO does not create a duty upon your landlord with regard to regulating the smoking of other residents in their dwellings (in the absence of a building rule requiring them to do so) and it is highly unlikely this would amount to any breach of habitability (that is significantly more concerned with safety code violations and utilities than nuisances like smells and noise). By all means contact your landlord. It's possible there is a building rule about smoking. Just realize you are unlikely to have any recourse that is satisfactory to you. I am sorry for your situation, but this is one of the problems of high density living that the law does not really deal with effectively.
BTW that link about nuisance is pretty well useless to you. In the law "nuisance" does not mean what it means in life. And as a tenant who have very little legal "property" interest in your dwelling because, again "property" has a more specific meaning in law than in life.
posted by crush-onastick at 9:26 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
The RLTO does not create a duty upon your landlord with regard to regulating the smoking of other residents in their dwellings (in the absence of a building rule requiring them to do so) and it is highly unlikely this would amount to any breach of habitability (that is significantly more concerned with safety code violations and utilities than nuisances like smells and noise). By all means contact your landlord. It's possible there is a building rule about smoking. Just realize you are unlikely to have any recourse that is satisfactory to you. I am sorry for your situation, but this is one of the problems of high density living that the law does not really deal with effectively.
BTW that link about nuisance is pretty well useless to you. In the law "nuisance" does not mean what it means in life. And as a tenant who have very little legal "property" interest in your dwelling because, again "property" has a more specific meaning in law than in life.
posted by crush-onastick at 9:26 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately there is not much recourse for you. I work within this field and smoke free policy is changing, albeit very slowly. Multi unit residential homes are being encouraged to be smoke free but no laws are yet in effect (at least state wide). There are some locations where there is no smoking in common areas of multi-unit housing.
Residential units where government money received (Section 8, HUD, etc.) are being encouraged to become smoke free but this is far from being mandated. Residential housing for specific populations, such as mental health and senior care, are becoming tobacco free or smoke free, in many states by law (Oregon, California, etc.). Others are offering groups to help individuals reduce or quit.
Smoke from mulit-unit housing will get from unit into another by seepage via air ducts, shared spaces and other ventilation. This includes the smell as well as the physical/medical exposure to second hand smoke.
This is a very complex issue. While I appreciate what timsteil is saying, I do not believe it is right for others to suffer in any way but especially medically for the rights of smokers to smoke. I don't know when, but eventually mutli-unit residential housing will be smoke-free. There are too many non-smokers who outnumber smokers and will be unwilling to put their own health at risk.
I often give individuals this link and I think it might help you. Good luck.
posted by Kitty Cornered at 9:27 AM on November 10, 2011
Residential units where government money received (Section 8, HUD, etc.) are being encouraged to become smoke free but this is far from being mandated. Residential housing for specific populations, such as mental health and senior care, are becoming tobacco free or smoke free, in many states by law (Oregon, California, etc.). Others are offering groups to help individuals reduce or quit.
Smoke from mulit-unit housing will get from unit into another by seepage via air ducts, shared spaces and other ventilation. This includes the smell as well as the physical/medical exposure to second hand smoke.
This is a very complex issue. While I appreciate what timsteil is saying, I do not believe it is right for others to suffer in any way but especially medically for the rights of smokers to smoke. I don't know when, but eventually mutli-unit residential housing will be smoke-free. There are too many non-smokers who outnumber smokers and will be unwilling to put their own health at risk.
I often give individuals this link and I think it might help you. Good luck.
posted by Kitty Cornered at 9:27 AM on November 10, 2011
There's no peer-reviewed scientific research that supports second-hand smoke being causative in relation to any form of cancer, to my knowledge. As others have said, driving on an LA highway is likely just as, if not more, toxic.
posted by speedgraphic at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by speedgraphic at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2011
Also, I'd recommend a HEPA-type air filter instead of an ionizer that creates ground-level ozone, which HAS been linked to cancer.
posted by speedgraphic at 9:41 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by speedgraphic at 9:41 AM on November 10, 2011
From Speedgraphic: There's no peer-reviewed scientific research that supports second-hand smoke being causative in relation to any form of cancer, to my knowledge. As others have said, driving on an LA highway is likely just as, if not more, toxic.
Frankly that's just wrong. OP is at real risk, especially given the OP's history with cancer
From the national cancer institute:
# At least 69 chemicals in secondhand smoke are known to cause cancer (see Question 3).
# Secondhand smoke causes lung cancer in nonsmokers (see Question 4).
# Secondhand smoke has also been associated with heart disease in adults and sudden infant death syndrome, ear infections, and asthma attacks in children (see Question 5).
# There is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke
Scientific papers:
Second hand smoke stimulates tumor growth (Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, UC San Francisco, Peer Reviewed)
Epidemiological studies have shown associations with cancers, chronic and acute respiratory illnesses, and cardiovascular disease, and evidence is now sufficient to support a causal relationship for many of these conditions. In the United States, the number of lives lost per year because of SHS exposure is estimated at 38 000 to 65 000. Many countries are now enacting smoke-free policies to protect nonsmokers and children from this hazard.
From gynecologic onology: In addition to HPV infection and active cigarette smoking, exposure to SHS is a major risk factor for CIN among Taiwanese women
Frankly OP, if at all possible, I would move. Your life is not worth this fight. If you can't move, I would sue in a civil lawsuit the condo ass'n, your landlord, and your next door neighbor. You will be hated, but probably someone will pay your moving costs. Precedent would be other environment hazards like asbestos
posted by zia at 10:35 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
Frankly that's just wrong. OP is at real risk, especially given the OP's history with cancer
From the national cancer institute:
# At least 69 chemicals in secondhand smoke are known to cause cancer (see Question 3).
# Secondhand smoke causes lung cancer in nonsmokers (see Question 4).
# Secondhand smoke has also been associated with heart disease in adults and sudden infant death syndrome, ear infections, and asthma attacks in children (see Question 5).
# There is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke
Scientific papers:
Second hand smoke stimulates tumor growth (Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, UC San Francisco, Peer Reviewed)
Epidemiological studies have shown associations with cancers, chronic and acute respiratory illnesses, and cardiovascular disease, and evidence is now sufficient to support a causal relationship for many of these conditions. In the United States, the number of lives lost per year because of SHS exposure is estimated at 38 000 to 65 000. Many countries are now enacting smoke-free policies to protect nonsmokers and children from this hazard.
From gynecologic onology: In addition to HPV infection and active cigarette smoking, exposure to SHS is a major risk factor for CIN among Taiwanese women
Frankly OP, if at all possible, I would move. Your life is not worth this fight. If you can't move, I would sue in a civil lawsuit the condo ass'n, your landlord, and your next door neighbor. You will be hated, but probably someone will pay your moving costs. Precedent would be other environment hazards like asbestos
posted by zia at 10:35 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have the same problem as you (not cancer, but the incoming smoke issue). Got some of this foam weather stripping. The doorframe here is not square, so some has weatherstripping stuck down, and some of it has a length of the foam but wrapped in duct tape, that we plug in every time we shut the door. We call it "the door plug." Then there is a roll of cloth that we put at the bottom of the door. This keeps the smoke out. That is the other door plug. The door plugs improve air quality a LOT! Some people have cute door snakes that I have seen to do a similar job. As well, we have a small air purifier that clears the place out quickly when we get a gust of smoke, usually a bunch of stinky pot from outdoors. (Yup, cannabis, and plenty of it. This is BC.) That stuff is really harsh on your throat.
I realize you are pointing to the smell but that people probably don't understand that the smell is the superficial indicator, and this stuff actually irritates our breathing passages, just as Febreeze and scented products can. Try plugging the door properly. People always say to move, but where do we move? The problem is everywhere, as you can see from the fact that the worst we have is coming in the window. Be glad she is across the hall; if she were next to you, the stuff comes through the building structure in many places, and the only option is to move. We have that in one room, but it's not constant, so the air purifier often goes there. Good luck.
posted by Listener at 10:36 AM on November 10, 2011
I realize you are pointing to the smell but that people probably don't understand that the smell is the superficial indicator, and this stuff actually irritates our breathing passages, just as Febreeze and scented products can. Try plugging the door properly. People always say to move, but where do we move? The problem is everywhere, as you can see from the fact that the worst we have is coming in the window. Be glad she is across the hall; if she were next to you, the stuff comes through the building structure in many places, and the only option is to move. We have that in one room, but it's not constant, so the air purifier often goes there. Good luck.
posted by Listener at 10:36 AM on November 10, 2011
I think that you're probably correct regarding most garden variety home HEPA filter air purifiers, but this company makes purifiers for hospitals and commercial use. Their residential units are expensive (the HealthPro Plus is almost $1000), which was why I was wondering if your landlord/owner of unit might be persuaded to purchase it for you. Good luck.
posted by kaybdc at 11:00 AM on November 10, 2011
posted by kaybdc at 11:00 AM on November 10, 2011
Mod note: folks - no more smoking vs non-smoking. I asked once now I am telling you. MetaTalk or MeMail are your only option from this point forward. Answer the OPs question or use alternate methods to work out your feelings on this topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:05 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:05 AM on November 10, 2011 [2 favorites]
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