Noob Scooter Questions
September 29, 2011 9:40 PM Subscribe
Commuter filter: I'd like to explore the possibilities of getting a scooter or motorcycle for my ~1.5 mile trip from home to the train station.
Currently, my spouse and I ride back and forth together from the train station in her car. I'd like a little more flexibility in my schedule, though, especially to get in a little earlier, and stay a little later, so it makes sense to me to get a scooter or motorcycle for this.
Is there any compelling reason to prefer a scooter or motorcycle over the other? How much should I expect to pay for something that I don't want to fuss about, but only needs to go about 3 miles a day?
How much could I expect my (California) auto insurance rate to rise? How do I secure it at the train station? Any other experience with this kind of transport that you could share?
Thanks.
Currently, my spouse and I ride back and forth together from the train station in her car. I'd like a little more flexibility in my schedule, though, especially to get in a little earlier, and stay a little later, so it makes sense to me to get a scooter or motorcycle for this.
Is there any compelling reason to prefer a scooter or motorcycle over the other? How much should I expect to pay for something that I don't want to fuss about, but only needs to go about 3 miles a day?
How much could I expect my (California) auto insurance rate to rise? How do I secure it at the train station? Any other experience with this kind of transport that you could share?
Thanks.
Or Can you ride a bike? Maybe a beater that you can lock at the station? or buy a folding bike that you can take on the train. Either will be cheaper than a scooter or car (like under $200!), an a 1.5 mile ride will take less than 10 min.
posted by TDIpod at 10:00 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by TDIpod at 10:00 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Sigh. :) When composing the question, I edited out the paragraphs about how I don't want to walk because it would take too long (the point here is *more* time at work), and about how I have no interest in cycling (following the laws is too stressful, and I'm unwilling to be a light-bombing cyclist; plus it's too sweaty).
posted by colin_l at 10:06 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by colin_l at 10:06 PM on September 29, 2011
It really does seem like cycling is your best bet, though. If you think following the laws is too stressful, bear in mind that you would be following the same laws that you would need to follow on a motorcycle or scooter. If those are really too much for you, I would advise against getting any vehicle whatsoever.
posted by LSK at 10:10 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by LSK at 10:10 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
How heavy are you, how many hills are there on the trip you make, and how well-maintained are the roads near your house? Scooters tend to be much lower-powered than motorcycles and have smaller wheels, so they're lighter and more maneouvrable, but they really suit smaller people at lower speeds on better, flatter roads. If you're heavy, or you carry a heavy bag, or if the roads are potholed or cracked, the wider diameter wheels and larger engine of a motorbike is likely to be safer.
The typical bike that's used in my country for trips like you're thinking of is the "postie bike", the Honda CT110, a modified ag bike with a small engine, big wheels and a tray for carrying loads. The post office use them for deliveries, and they're cheap ($1K-2.5K AUD), ubiquitous and bombproof. Have a look at the bikes in the bike parking sections near your station, I'm sure there's a common Californian equivalent.
For security: if your bike/scooter has a front disc brake you can put a specialised disc brake padlock on it at the station, or you can use an ordinary padlock and a bit of chain. Or just take your key out, like I do: modern CDI ignition makes it a real pain to steal bikes except to carry them away in a ute and break them up for parts.
I can't speak to Californian costs, but this is the general advice about two-wheeled vehicles I give: you can afford a lot more car for $x than you can motorbike. Bikes and scooters come with many more incidental expenses than cars do; they need much more regular service, tyre changing, lubrication, and so on. Fuel costs are pretty low---I fill my 12L tank for about $15AUD, and get between 200km and 250km on each one---but I'm also on first-name terms with my mechanic. You might not want to fuss about a bike, but they're fussy machines. Budget for a set of tools and a workshop manual.
And let me be the first to say: yes, you need a helmet, jacket and gloves, even to ride a scooter from your house to the station.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:11 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
The typical bike that's used in my country for trips like you're thinking of is the "postie bike", the Honda CT110, a modified ag bike with a small engine, big wheels and a tray for carrying loads. The post office use them for deliveries, and they're cheap ($1K-2.5K AUD), ubiquitous and bombproof. Have a look at the bikes in the bike parking sections near your station, I'm sure there's a common Californian equivalent.
For security: if your bike/scooter has a front disc brake you can put a specialised disc brake padlock on it at the station, or you can use an ordinary padlock and a bit of chain. Or just take your key out, like I do: modern CDI ignition makes it a real pain to steal bikes except to carry them away in a ute and break them up for parts.
I can't speak to Californian costs, but this is the general advice about two-wheeled vehicles I give: you can afford a lot more car for $x than you can motorbike. Bikes and scooters come with many more incidental expenses than cars do; they need much more regular service, tyre changing, lubrication, and so on. Fuel costs are pretty low---I fill my 12L tank for about $15AUD, and get between 200km and 250km on each one---but I'm also on first-name terms with my mechanic. You might not want to fuss about a bike, but they're fussy machines. Budget for a set of tools and a workshop manual.
And let me be the first to say: yes, you need a helmet, jacket and gloves, even to ride a scooter from your house to the station.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:11 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
It'll be quite hard on the engine of either to travel in 1.5 mile increments, engines suffer more wear and tear when not fully warmed up,which takes about that distance.
An electric bike might be a decent option for traveling quicker. Be sure to invest in quality protective gear whatever you choose.
posted by oblio_one at 10:13 PM on September 29, 2011
An electric bike might be a decent option for traveling quicker. Be sure to invest in quality protective gear whatever you choose.
posted by oblio_one at 10:13 PM on September 29, 2011
Scooters are generally cheaper, easier to operate. Cheap to insure. Scooters usually have some kind of storage. They also tend to be smaller/slower than most motorcycles you'll come by these days. If your 1.5 mile commute involves a fast moving freeway, you'll need a vehicle with an engine larger than 150cc legally, more than 250cc practically. Larger, freeway capable scooters tend to cost more than comparable motorcycles, however. Most scooters use some kind of automatic transmission. Most motorcycles use a manual transmission.
Decent small scooters from the big manufacturers start at about $2000 new. A few of the reputable newcomers like Kymco and Genuine cost a bit less. Hidden costs are helmet protective gear.
Insurance for small scooter/bike is pretty cheap for me. Less than $100 year in Los Angeles and a 250cc motorcycle.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:14 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Decent small scooters from the big manufacturers start at about $2000 new. A few of the reputable newcomers like Kymco and Genuine cost a bit less. Hidden costs are helmet protective gear.
Insurance for small scooter/bike is pretty cheap for me. Less than $100 year in Los Angeles and a 250cc motorcycle.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:14 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Less than $100 year in Los Angeles and a 30 year old 250cc motorcycle, I should say.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:18 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by 2N2222 at 10:18 PM on September 29, 2011
If you do this, you want a scooter. Less exposure to oil and dirt (the engine is hidden as they were designed for riding in street clothes), a little more protection for your legs from rain and road dirt (step-through design), and almost always automatic transmission, which is less annoying in stop-and-go traffic. If you get a 150+ you'll be able to beat cars off the light, lower than that and people will pass you on hills and you won't feel so safe. You will need to take a written test to get a permit which will allow you to ride at all, but bar you from taking passengers or riding in the dark until you take a road test or get out of it by taking a course. I really recommend the MSF course, you will learn a lot of safety stuff you need to know.
For comparison with 2N2222's data point, our scooter insurance was about $250 every six months for full coverage on a new almost $5,000 Vespa (bundled with our car insurance, secure parking, clean driving records).
One problem with a scooter or bike will be your gear, less of a problem with a scooter, where if you're willing to go to just helmet and gloves (I wouldn't be) you can stuff the gloves in the helmet and put it under the seat (check it fits before buying either bike or helmet). You can secure an armored jacket, and you can secure a helmet other ways, but I wouldn't want to leave them all day.
Sweat is not a total non-issue with a scooter, a jacket can get hot in the sun, especially if you're sitting at lights, and you will have some form of helmet hair! Think about what you'll do when it rains, safety and comfort-wise, scooting in the rain just sucks.
Our security on the scooter has always been insurance really. Sure you can lock them a variety of ways, but if someone has their eye on it and is serious enough to bring a pick up and a couple of guys, there's not much you can do. At the train station it may be a special target because thieves can bet you'll be gone all day.
I love scooters and totally advocate them, but I'm being a bit of a downer here because if you only want one for the situation you describe and don't plan to ride on the weekends or otherwise for fun, I think you'll find it more trouble than it's worth. You also do need gear and training, you might think it will be fine as it's such a short trip, but riding on two wheels is a real skill, and a lot can happen in a block or two. So get one, but do it right and ride it all the time!
posted by crabintheocean at 10:59 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
For comparison with 2N2222's data point, our scooter insurance was about $250 every six months for full coverage on a new almost $5,000 Vespa (bundled with our car insurance, secure parking, clean driving records).
One problem with a scooter or bike will be your gear, less of a problem with a scooter, where if you're willing to go to just helmet and gloves (I wouldn't be) you can stuff the gloves in the helmet and put it under the seat (check it fits before buying either bike or helmet). You can secure an armored jacket, and you can secure a helmet other ways, but I wouldn't want to leave them all day.
Sweat is not a total non-issue with a scooter, a jacket can get hot in the sun, especially if you're sitting at lights, and you will have some form of helmet hair! Think about what you'll do when it rains, safety and comfort-wise, scooting in the rain just sucks.
Our security on the scooter has always been insurance really. Sure you can lock them a variety of ways, but if someone has their eye on it and is serious enough to bring a pick up and a couple of guys, there's not much you can do. At the train station it may be a special target because thieves can bet you'll be gone all day.
I love scooters and totally advocate them, but I'm being a bit of a downer here because if you only want one for the situation you describe and don't plan to ride on the weekends or otherwise for fun, I think you'll find it more trouble than it's worth. You also do need gear and training, you might think it will be fine as it's such a short trip, but riding on two wheels is a real skill, and a lot can happen in a block or two. So get one, but do it right and ride it all the time!
posted by crabintheocean at 10:59 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
The other consideration is you will need to get an M1 license (or M2 if you get a moped - which California defines as having bicycle pedals for human power and being capable of less than 30mph).
I know the protocol is usually not to question the asker's premises here, but a bicycle is seriously the best answer. A motorcycle or a scooter is overkill. It's going to cost much more, introduce maintenance headaches and spent time. It takes a few minutes to suit up prior to a ride and pretty much cancels out the time savings over a bicycle for a 1.5 mile ride. And this ride is so short, you will not work up a sweat. (Don't use a backpack though, use a pannier bag.)
It may be that you want a motorcycle or a scooter for fun or for other purposes... if so, great. But for the scenario you described, it makes no sense.
posted by knave at 12:05 AM on September 30, 2011
I know the protocol is usually not to question the asker's premises here, but a bicycle is seriously the best answer. A motorcycle or a scooter is overkill. It's going to cost much more, introduce maintenance headaches and spent time. It takes a few minutes to suit up prior to a ride and pretty much cancels out the time savings over a bicycle for a 1.5 mile ride. And this ride is so short, you will not work up a sweat. (Don't use a backpack though, use a pannier bag.)
It may be that you want a motorcycle or a scooter for fun or for other purposes... if so, great. But for the scenario you described, it makes no sense.
posted by knave at 12:05 AM on September 30, 2011
I have no interest in cycling (following the laws is too stressful)
No it's not. You just haven't had enough practice to feel comfortable yet.
Riding a scooter in traffic is exactly the same as riding a bicycle in traffic, except you can go a little faster uphill. Buy a bike, read Effective Cycling, start riding your bike, and before you know it, the stress will be gone.
Don't play into the anti-bike propaganda that you have been fed since you were a kid. Riding your bike on the street is not dangerous. Dying of heart disease because you never get any exercise is a much more realistic worry.
posted by jrockway at 12:46 AM on September 30, 2011
No it's not. You just haven't had enough practice to feel comfortable yet.
Riding a scooter in traffic is exactly the same as riding a bicycle in traffic, except you can go a little faster uphill. Buy a bike, read Effective Cycling, start riding your bike, and before you know it, the stress will be gone.
Don't play into the anti-bike propaganda that you have been fed since you were a kid. Riding your bike on the street is not dangerous. Dying of heart disease because you never get any exercise is a much more realistic worry.
posted by jrockway at 12:46 AM on September 30, 2011
Riding a scooter in traffic is exactly the same as riding a bicycle in traffic, except you can go a little faster uphill.
Well, sort of. Except that you also have good brakes, lights, a horn, and can keep up with traffic. They are different animals; both have their place, and those roles overlap, but they aren't the same at all.
I agree with others that a bicycle is your cheapest and smartest (and healthiest) option.
But, if you don't want to bicycle, then you definitely want a scooter. They are purpose-built for urban commuting. Get something like a Honda Metropolitan or Ruckus, a Yamaha Zuma, or another modern 50cc 4-stroke, clean-running scooter. Any of those will get over 100 miles per gallon, have enough storage space to carry your lunch, and are incredibly easy to ride. The Ruckus looks the coolest, but a scooter with a locking storage space under the seat to leave your helmet is the best for commuting.
But, like Fiasco da Gama says, you'll need helmet, gloves, lock, etc, and you'll need to deal with getting licensed (and, if you are at all smart, taking either the regular MSF training course, or a scooter-specific one). Insurance is usually really cheap (I think I pay about $100/year), but talk with your agent first, of course. To save money, you should probably just go buy a bicycle or maybe an old beater car. If you choose the scooter, be honest with yourself and know that you are buying for the smiles, fun, and convenience; it would probably take a hundred years of 1.5 mile commutes to earn back in gas savings all those extra costs. Don't forget that scooters need oil changes, new tires, valve adjustments, and other basic services; it's easy to do yourself or you can pay someone to do it, but that's either time or money being spent.
the "postie bike", the Honda CT110
FYI, that hasn't been sold in the US in decades. A couple of years ago SYM started importing a copy of the CT110, the Symba, but I don't know how available those really are. More common here are the top-tier Japanese companies (Honda, Yamaha, etc), for more money and style the European scooters (eg Vespa), and for less money but also smaller dealer networks the newer Korean and Chinese companies (eg Kymco). I'd avoid the truly no-name ones, but anything from a major manufacturer, and with a local dealer (for parts and service) should be ok.
posted by Forktine at 5:23 AM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Well, sort of. Except that you also have good brakes, lights, a horn, and can keep up with traffic. They are different animals; both have their place, and those roles overlap, but they aren't the same at all.
I agree with others that a bicycle is your cheapest and smartest (and healthiest) option.
But, if you don't want to bicycle, then you definitely want a scooter. They are purpose-built for urban commuting. Get something like a Honda Metropolitan or Ruckus, a Yamaha Zuma, or another modern 50cc 4-stroke, clean-running scooter. Any of those will get over 100 miles per gallon, have enough storage space to carry your lunch, and are incredibly easy to ride. The Ruckus looks the coolest, but a scooter with a locking storage space under the seat to leave your helmet is the best for commuting.
But, like Fiasco da Gama says, you'll need helmet, gloves, lock, etc, and you'll need to deal with getting licensed (and, if you are at all smart, taking either the regular MSF training course, or a scooter-specific one). Insurance is usually really cheap (I think I pay about $100/year), but talk with your agent first, of course. To save money, you should probably just go buy a bicycle or maybe an old beater car. If you choose the scooter, be honest with yourself and know that you are buying for the smiles, fun, and convenience; it would probably take a hundred years of 1.5 mile commutes to earn back in gas savings all those extra costs. Don't forget that scooters need oil changes, new tires, valve adjustments, and other basic services; it's easy to do yourself or you can pay someone to do it, but that's either time or money being spent.
the "postie bike", the Honda CT110
FYI, that hasn't been sold in the US in decades. A couple of years ago SYM started importing a copy of the CT110, the Symba, but I don't know how available those really are. More common here are the top-tier Japanese companies (Honda, Yamaha, etc), for more money and style the European scooters (eg Vespa), and for less money but also smaller dealer networks the newer Korean and Chinese companies (eg Kymco). I'd avoid the truly no-name ones, but anything from a major manufacturer, and with a local dealer (for parts and service) should be ok.
posted by Forktine at 5:23 AM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure that scooting to the station is really going to save you that much time even vs just walking (let alone cycling). My experience when commuting by scooter is that putting on all the gear, unlocking the bike, putting on gloves, then taking off all the gear, changing shoes, putting the gear away, locking up the bike, etc. is comfortably worth 5 minutes at each end of the journey. That's if you have all your gear laid out and ready to go; if you have to spend extra time finding your glove liners (because the day is colder than you expected) or cleaning your visor (because you forgot to do it yesterday evening) then you could easily end up not saving any time at all.
posted by primer_dimer at 5:43 AM on September 30, 2011
posted by primer_dimer at 5:43 AM on September 30, 2011
Get a Honda Ruckus and be done with it. Regular rain gear (like the rain jacket you would wear if you were walking down the sidewalk) and a helmet will be all you need. You're going 1.5 miles, not doing the Dakar Rally, so if you're too cold at the start of your morning commute you can take solace in the fact that it will be over in about 4 minutes.
Honda Ruckus. Bombproof transportation.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:24 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Honda Ruckus. Bombproof transportation.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:24 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
My wife loves her Yamaha C3, and rides it around the city on lots of little short hops with no problems. A huge consideration that no one has addressed is parking--in DC, sub-50cc scooters can legally park wherever a bicycle can, which is a huge cost- and trouble-saving feature. Wherever she goes, she can just pull up on the sidewalk and chain the scooter to a tree or lamp post or bike rack.
Do not think you'll save money by buying a cheap off brand. My wife's first scooter lasted 3 months, then we couldn't find anyone willing to work on it. A name-brand is worth the extra money.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:16 AM on September 30, 2011
Do not think you'll save money by buying a cheap off brand. My wife's first scooter lasted 3 months, then we couldn't find anyone willing to work on it. A name-brand is worth the extra money.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:16 AM on September 30, 2011
I'll be honest, I got a scooter when I was in grad school for the exact same reasons you're considering here - car was too expensive, walking was too shady (industrial warehouse district, potentially late at night) and I hate bike commuting because of the stress/sweat factors. It was the BEST decision ever. I have had my scooter for over 5 years now and love it. It was a $2500 investment, the insurance is quite low (and gets lower every year), and damn it's fun to drive and gives me all kinds of flexibility getting to places with limited parking (like UC's or busy downtowns).
As others have said you need to get an M1 endorsement on your license in CA. Just take the safety course, it's two days on a weekend and you'll be done with it. The DMV road test is quite difficult and I failed it twice before taking the class, which delayed me getting my license.
I have a Buddy 125 scooter, and it's been great for 5 years now. Very reliable, VERY cheap to maintain. It has more than enough power for both SF hills and LA major roads (personal experience with both). I can't recommend it enough. In SF go to the Scooter Centre on Mission and in LA go to Route 66 motors on Lincoln.
posted by annie o at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
As others have said you need to get an M1 endorsement on your license in CA. Just take the safety course, it's two days on a weekend and you'll be done with it. The DMV road test is quite difficult and I failed it twice before taking the class, which delayed me getting my license.
I have a Buddy 125 scooter, and it's been great for 5 years now. Very reliable, VERY cheap to maintain. It has more than enough power for both SF hills and LA major roads (personal experience with both). I can't recommend it enough. In SF go to the Scooter Centre on Mission and in LA go to Route 66 motors on Lincoln.
posted by annie o at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
For 1.5 miles, a scooter will be perfect for you. Unless you're going on the freeway - you aren't going on the freeway, right?
Really, get a cheapie 50cc scoot for $800-$1000 bucks on craigslist and let it be your second car. You can totally stop for a few groceries on your way home - zip tie a milk crate to the back of your scooter or carry a big bag. My first scoot was a Yamaha Zuma that had a big storage space under the seat.
PS. I've ridden a bicycle, a scooter and a motorcycle on the streets of San Francisco and have felt the most unsafe, BY FAR, riding a bicycle.
posted by bendy at 8:11 PM on September 30, 2011
Really, get a cheapie 50cc scoot for $800-$1000 bucks on craigslist and let it be your second car. You can totally stop for a few groceries on your way home - zip tie a milk crate to the back of your scooter or carry a big bag. My first scoot was a Yamaha Zuma that had a big storage space under the seat.
PS. I've ridden a bicycle, a scooter and a motorcycle on the streets of San Francisco and have felt the most unsafe, BY FAR, riding a bicycle.
posted by bendy at 8:11 PM on September 30, 2011
Also, scooter insurance is minimal. Like, $100/year, or less. Unless you were in the depths of Oakland I don't know that you necessarily need to lock up a scooter. But my philosophy is to always buy something cheap and crappy-looking so no one wants to steal it anyway. YMMV.
Check the BART/CalTrain website for moto/scoot parking, or just visit your local station and cruise the parking lot. Two-wheel parking is usually a lot cheaper than 4-wheel parking.
posted by bendy at 8:14 PM on September 30, 2011
Check the BART/CalTrain website for moto/scoot parking, or just visit your local station and cruise the parking lot. Two-wheel parking is usually a lot cheaper than 4-wheel parking.
posted by bendy at 8:14 PM on September 30, 2011
I love my Vespa, and I love my bicycle, both equally. I would have to agree with the bicycle votes, for just practical reasons. A 1.5 mile commute will take what, about 10 minutes on a bicycle? Maybe less. And honestly, you could MAYBE cut three or four minutes out by using a scooter so the time issue is a wash. You're left with the convenience and exercise factor of the bicycle. I probably wouldn't go to all the trouble of getting a scooter just for that short commute. The added expenses of the cost of the scooter, helmet, gloves, clothing, and insurance, along with the hassle of getting the license, finding a good mechanic, and learning how to ride just doesn't seem to equal out for me. On the other hand, riding my scooter is the most fun thing, ever, so if you're going to ride more than just the commute, I say go for the scooter. If you go for the bike, get a decent one. There's a huge difference in ease of use at the $300 to $400 and above mark.
posted by raisingsand at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2011
posted by raisingsand at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by arnicae at 9:57 PM on September 29, 2011