There's no youth culture — only masks they let you rent.
September 28, 2011 5:56 PM   Subscribe

I reliably get asked, by puzzled, well-meaning people, what makes me opt out of popular culture. How do I reframe the conversation so that it's clear that I never opted in?

I feel that putting the conversation in terms of the first scenario already begs the question. It makes it sound as if I keep a constant, neurotic vigil. I start out on the defensive, having to explain myself. If I must explain myself, I say a subset of the following:
  • I have an international upbringing, so what I grew up with is not what most people my age grew up with.
  • I grew up using the public library for my reading, so my choice of reading has always been completely unaffected by how recently a book came out.
  • I watch no television, so I get exposed to less hype than most people.
  • I've always gone to the movies very rarely, meaning I never got on the treadmill of a new blockbuster every week.
This doesn't seem satisfying to many people. Their relationship with popular entertainment is very different from mine. And, frankly, I feel no reason to justify what to me feels like an effortless and natural state of affairs.

For whatever reason, some people find this attitude alien and even insincere. They check in with me whether I do this on principle, or whether I'm making some kind of stand against popular entertainment. This line of questioning really rankles me. It feels like a subversion of my preferences, sensibilities, and tastes. FFS, pretty much everything I like was at one point popular somewhere to some extent! Maybe not right now, maybe not this decade, maybe not in this country. I'm not trying to make claims of uniqueness by making some kind of public display of what I like and don't like.

How can I best nip conversations on this sordid topic in the bud?
posted by Nomyte to Society & Culture (86 answers total) 28 users marked this as a favorite
 
I'm much the same way as you. When people ask me why I don't own a car or why I refuse to get TV or why I've never seen some movie or read some book, I just say "I don't like to (do x)." If they still don't get it I say "I'd rather spend my money on booze instead." That handles 99% of the questions.

Some people are just going to pester you no matter what response is. Ignore them and move on. Honestly, I think the more creative or detailed your response is, the more defensive they are going to get because they'll feel like you're judging them for not being so international and forward-thinking and sheltered from hype.
posted by joan_holloway at 6:09 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


For whatever reason, some people find this attitude alien and even insincere. They check in with me whether I do this on principle, or whether I'm making some kind of stand against popular entertainment. This line of questioning really rankles me. It feels like a subversion of my preferences, sensibilities, and tastes.

That's life, yo. Like it or not, popular culture is how a lot of people find common ground in social interactions. If you're completely detached from it, some will find that odd and ask you questions. There are costs to not opting into any part of the zeitgeist, and you've stumbled onto one of them. One of the things about being different is that you're different, and that makes people curious.

But that's (obviously) okay! I'm sure you're much more well-rounded than we culture vultures, and know a gazillion things that we don't. The explanation in your bullet points is totally great and fascinating, and I think you shouldn't feel shy or defensive about giving it when the subject comes up. If others don't like it, that's sort of their problem. And I imagine you're not too keen on being around people who talk about nothing but Breaking Bad all day, anyway.
posted by eugenen at 6:09 PM on September 28, 2011 [10 favorites]


It's not you, it's them. What you are seeing is their insecurity about having their lives dictated to them by popular culture. A simple, "I guess it's easy if you never started with that stuff in the first place" is more than enough of an explanation.
posted by COD at 6:09 PM on September 28, 2011


Hmm, can you explain more how these conversations come about? How do people know you're not up on mainstream stuff in the first place?

I tend to be fairly ignorant about a lot of pop culture-y things, but it isn't something that people ask me to explain - usually when discussions about the latest whatever come up, I just bow out or stay to the side ... is it possible that you might be inadvertently drawing it on yourself by unnecessarily bringing up that you don't have a TV, aren't reading whatever is currently popular, etc.?
posted by DingoMutt at 6:10 PM on September 28, 2011 [18 favorites]


How is this coming up in conversation? Are you just flat-out saying "I opt out of popular culture"? I'm not all that into much popular culture, though likely moreso than you are - I do watch some television, albeit my preferred shows aren't very popular - but I've never had this problem. Is it possible you sound smug and insulting to these people when this topic comes up, like you think you are better than those who like popular entertainment?
posted by wondermouse at 6:10 PM on September 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


It seems to me that people wouldn't ask these questions if you didn't give them a reason to. Most often when someone asks me if I've seen show X and I respond "I don't have cable," that's the end of it. If a movie, I say "I don't like going to the movies - I can't stay still." Again, that's the end of it.
posted by sanko at 6:10 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


How about you just don't tell people that this is a thing for you?

If someone asks if you've seen $TVSHOW, just brush it off with some pleasantry like "oh, I haven't caught an episode yet, is it any good? I'll try to check it out sometime".

Maybe you spend time with very different people than I do, but I can't imagine getting interrogated for not knowing about X pop culture item unless I said something like "oh, I would never watch that show, and I don't have a TV anyways because pop culture sucks amirite?"

Maybe you can give an example of how these conversations tend to start?
posted by auto-correct at 6:11 PM on September 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


I think some things might be missing from the question here, as I [no teevee, library user, barely ever see a new movie, clueless about new music, etc] and I do not run into these conversations at all.

This is clearly some pretty loaded stuff for you --

"This line of questioning really rankles me. It feels like a subversion of my preferences, sensibilities, and tastes. FFS,... ...this sordid topic..."

-- and I cannot help but think that if you stopped caring so much about these things, so would the people around you.

Alternatively, you are hanging around with people you are not compatible with and need to find new social circles. But, like other posters, I am having a hard time understanding how this keeps coming up, and why "Hey, you like Glee? That's cool; I hear a lot of people do... No, I haven't seen it, no teevee. Anyway, what do you think about [local election]; are you going to be voting?" does not work and why it becomes a "sordid" topic.
posted by kmennie at 6:13 PM on September 28, 2011 [23 favorites]


How is it these conversations come up so often? I think you must, even if it isn't intentional, be triggering these questions in some way. I've never seen CSI, and no one has ever asked me if I refuse to watch it on principle or if I just never got into it because of my international upbringing...
posted by Relic at 6:18 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


For what it's worth, this line of questioning belies your audience's fear that you're judging them for their interest in pop culture and probably deeming them shallow. Others may know how much attention they devote to pop culture and wonder (or can't fathom) how you spend your time.

Both my father and my husband opt out of pop culture and face this dilemma often. The most effective response--by which I mean one that makes neither you nor your inquisitor feel like a freak--is light-hearted and vague, e.g., "Oh, you know, same as with anything... some stuff sticks and some stuff doesn't. Hey [new topic]."

If you're getting asked about specific stuff, you can also blow it off as kmennie suggests or use it as a chance to learn about what's important to that person and why, just like you would any other interest... yes, even if it's "OMG Kardashians!!!"
posted by carmicha at 6:19 PM on September 28, 2011 [4 favorites]


It's not you, it's them. What you are seeing is their insecurity about having their lives dictated to them by popular culture.

I would suggest being very careful about showing an attitude like this one COD espouses above (sorry to use you as an example COD). If you hold such views, and aren't careful to be considerate, it's likely to come out as contempt which may get other people defensive (rightfully so, but I won't get offtopic). No idea if you're doing that, but worth watching out for.

The good news for is there barely is a popular culture anymore outside of the world of tweens. The dizzying array of options and possible ways to consume entertainment has really fractured people into all kinds of subcultures and interests. It should be real easy for you to avoid getting the third degree in casual conversations by saying "nah, haven't seen that".
posted by malphigian at 6:20 PM on September 28, 2011 [5 favorites]


I say view it as a kind of social anthropology, ask them about the show or whatever it may be, get to know why they like it! People find things off putting when they suspect they are being judged, if you seem curious and interested you will put their minds at ease despite these differences.
posted by abirdinthehand at 6:21 PM on September 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Yes, I agree that perhaps its how you react to lines of conversations where this comes up. If you choose to make a big deal out of it, people will.

Them: have you seen the new Survivor?
(perhaps) You: I don't own a television

If that is the type of response you give, then you are inviting people to ask about it. It's not what they asked really, you volunteered that you watch no television. Tailor your answer for the asker - if it's someone who you won't really talk to again, come up with a fluff answer. If it's a friend who you speak to a lot, yeah, you'll have to go through this once, but once they realize this about you, they won't ask you stuff like that.

And honestly, in this day and age, there is so much media, people really do find it hard to believe that some people choose to opt out. If you're going to put it out there, be prepared to discuss it.
posted by NoraCharles at 6:25 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


If this is just coming up apropos of nothing, then the simplest answer is really, "Why do you ask?"

I have noticed that there are certain things that some people have weird kneejerk reactions to, usually having to do with someone abstaining from a specific consumer product (like Facebook or Windows) or a general category (like television or meat). Even when you don't volunteer that information unless you're cornered, some people have a really defensive response, and assume you're some kind of judgmental snob who is now about to launch into some huge lecture.

I figure the best response to someone asking in a non-hostile way is just to say, "Meh, I'm just not really into that," or something. If they are being a jerk about it, though, I think it's OK to tell them it's creepy how they're getting so worked up over what you do and don't do.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:27 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: These conversations don't happen often, but they do happen reliably. Here are two possible scenarios —

It's a conversation about movies, shows, or books. I'll try to keep the topic going by saying something I like. "You like Lost? Cool! I've heard it's a lot like The Prisoner. You know, the old British show? No, I don't only watch really old shows, I'm sorry."

Or else it's another conversation about movies, shows, or books, and something I haven't seen will become the focus, and I'll say, "I guess I don't know, I never saw Inglourious Basterds. Er, I've never seen Kill Bill either. No, I'm not intentionally avoiding Tarantino movies."

The point is, I do like watching movies and reading books, and I like talking about them. But my background knowledge of these things is different from most people I end up talking to.

I also don't like blowing people off or suddenly changing the topic. These don't seem to be good solutions.
posted by Nomyte at 6:27 PM on September 28, 2011


Just smile and be good natured about it. When people here talk about sports I just say 'hey, I hope your team wins'. My Internet's shit, so I haven't seen the new Community or Breaking Bad or whatever so I just avoid conversations about them but assume they're good.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:30 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I've never encountered that attitude although I talk to hundreds of people every day about culture (I'm in a public library). Any time some one starts talking about wrestling or Star Trek or whatever (ha, I'm so out of the loop I don't know what is IN the loop right now) I ask them about their interest in it, where they first heard about it etc. If someone asks if I have seen [latest HI-larious commercial] I tell them no and let them tell me about it usually without mentioning my lack of a TV. If people are so rude where you are maybe you should change social circles or else stop caring what they think of you or stop having those conversations. If they ask if you have read Hunger Games you can always say no [not mention that you don't read new books] and say something like "I read a similiar dystopian novel I liked called the Handmaid's Tale, maybe I'll try to pick up Hunger Games at some point." It is nice to share without judgement coming from either side.
posted by saucysault at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2011 [4 favorites]


After reading your follow-up, it seems that you just need to stop letting it bother you so much. I don't think these people mean any offense. It sounds like they are just curious and want to understand your perspective. If a particular individual really does seem bothered by what you're saying, that's weird. I would avoid that person.
posted by wondermouse at 6:37 PM on September 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


"You like Lost? Cool! I've heard it's a lot like The Prisoner. You know, the old British show? No, I don't only watch really old shows, I'm sorry."

I'm pretty mainstream, but we could have a conversation without me finding your tastes weird. I've seen all episodes of The Prisoner, and it was made way before I was born. I also know at least 3 people who have never seen a Tarantino movie, and wouldn't want to, but not because they are objecting to Tarantino.

I think you're running into the occasional, sheltered person. They follow all the mainstream stuff, so from their perspective, they are not sheltered because they like what everyone else does and share a canon of knowledge with them. However, when they run into someone who doesn't follow mainstream stuff, they are too sheltered to realize that there are a lot of people who don't, and don't care too -- or there are a lot of people who follow stuff that's mainstream to them and their sub-group, but not the rest of the world.

I think if you approach the conversation from the perspective that you're talking to a sheltered person, who isn't very worldly, you won't find yourself responding to them in a defensive manner.
posted by 517 at 6:38 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


On non-preview, you already do engage with them like I suggested. Is it the same people over and over? Maybe they are just boors, or young with poor social skills?
posted by saucysault at 6:39 PM on September 28, 2011


They check in with me whether I do this on principle, or whether I'm making some kind of stand against popular entertainment.

Are you, though? Are you giving off the Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television vibes?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:41 PM on September 28, 2011 [29 favorites]


I think if you just answer the specific questions no one will care or think you're strange. I mean, for a young man (?) who is into movies to have never seen a Tarantino film is weird. So why haven't you seen one? Just say "I heard they're gory and I don't like that sort of thing" or whatever the answer is. Same with Lost - sounds too convoluted? you aren't interested in investing in a years long serialized drama? There's no reason to feel defensive about whatever your reasons are for whatever you haven't seen.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:43 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Honestly, I think you come off as judgmental in the examples you've given. Just reply, "Eh, I haven't seen this stuff just cause it's not in my sphere. Tell me about it though, maybe if I have some free time I'll pick some of it up." The way you're replying now makes it seem like you're dismissing the interests of the other people in the conversation because you view them as sheep in the flock that is pop culture.

Like you said, your interests were once part of pop culture too.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:46 PM on September 28, 2011 [9 favorites]


This will sound kind of patronising, but the trick is -
You and I assume they are sharing movies, tv, books etc that they like, and therefore would be interested in us sharing the books, movies and TV shows we *have* watched.
Hey, that's how I find good media when I occasionally watch it, and for example, if people still say a tv series is good after it finished, then it was generally a good series (there are too many current shows on to watch the ones that aren't good).

We are making a fundamental mistake, when interacting with people who then ask those sorts of questions. At the far side of the spectrum, they are not sharing their interests, they are sharing their group norms. To the extent that many of them may not even get much out of the culture they are consuming, it's just a way to be 'in' in their group (books often barely rate, because they're harder to do as a 'group').
By answering with our interests, instead of our group norms, we are... well, we are doing a bad thing. Fear! Fear of the unknown! Fear that someone else might be having more fun or cannot not-participate without being judgemental! I go overboard.

The trick is, when someone brings these things up. Don't talk about your interests.
If they talk about movies, don't talk about movies you like. If you talk about books, don't talk about books you like.
There are no objections as long as they presume you have opted out altogether - if you have no TV, fine. If you are watching tv shows that aren't theirs, problem.

You can be as international as you want, as long as they don't have to hear that you're doing anything different. No, really. And some perfectly nice people do this subconsciously.

But it's ok, as you go on, you'll get better and better at avoiding those conversations, by better identifying the people who have no interest in hearing about 'different' interests, and you'll drift towards the people who get excited when they hear you're into *x,b,z* things, and who will share their *y, t, n* things, and when you figure out you guys only share b & n in common, will be very excited about b & n with you, and think that's just fine!
posted by Elysum at 6:47 PM on September 28, 2011 [5 favorites]


I agree with others that it's a long way from "I haven't seen [Particular Movie]" to "I opt out of pop culture." The truth is, you haven't opted out of pop culture, clearly - you participate in pop culture - you've just had a different set of experiences than many others and perhaps pursue your entertainment options through different channels. But I would expect that you are as involved in pop culture as anyone if you like "watching movies" and "reading books."

So the question is really how do you relate to people of different tastes or who consume different flavors of media, and the answer is, politely, with interest. I get a long way with "I'm not familiar" as a go-to response. "Sounds great !I'm not familiar with it but I love mysteries." "Sounds great! I'm not familiar with their music but I love old blues and it sounds like they share some of the same influences."

What tends to stall out is trying to find common ground by responding with something esoteric that they may not have heard of - "I love mysteries! IT sounds like Cyril Hare's work, have you read that?" Probably not going anywhere, and feels like a shut-off to your conversation partner.

Equally, "I don't do X" is kind of a shut-off. I don't have broadcast TV either, but I tend to nod, smile, and listen for useful information when people talk about TV shows. Sometimes I'll rent them later or look them up online if it sounds like they'd interest me. It doesn't really matter how I get this content or whether I get it at all, but it doesn't have to be a point of discussion why I'm not as exposed to it as others unless it's repeated. IF it comes up that someone thinks I live in a box because I haven't seen "Top Chef" or whatever, eventually I'll say "We just don't have broadcast TV, we couldn't justify the expense and I have too much of an addictive personality to turn it off and do other things." This self-deprecating thing is (a) true and (b) doesn't communicate the "I'm sooohooo intellectual" vibe that I think turns people off when they don't seem to share your interests.

I don't know how old you are, but as you get older your particular tastes in culture are likely to be less important, as well.

Bottom line: In matters of taste, there is no disputation.
posted by Miko at 6:51 PM on September 28, 2011 [7 favorites]


It's a conversation about movies, shows, or books. I'll try to keep the topic going by saying something I like. "You like Lost? Cool! I've heard it's a lot like The Prisoner. You know, the old British show? No, I don't only watch really old shows, I'm sorry."

Being a bit of a media snob/hipster myself, I would hear this as hipster one-up manship. Like, "Doctor Who? I'm sure that's okay but have you heard of Adam Adamant? Oh, probably not--it only lasted one season in the sixties."

A way to diffuse that sort of thing is to be self-deprecating, which is what I do about TV or books I really didn't like in settings where it's not appropriate to talk about why you didn't like it. "No, I haven't seen LOST. I know, I know--I'm such a dinosaur!" And then engage in the person about that thing, to show you're not judging them. "I do love sci-fi. What did you like about it?"

If you're really just judging these people for spending time on their pop culture interests, then I wouldn't be surprised if they bristle.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:03 PM on September 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


There are a lot of movies, TV shows, or books that others consider to be Part Of The Canon that I've never had any interest in. When people ask me if I've ever seen them, and I say no, and they ask why, I usually just shrug and say "never got into it, I guess."

That's usually worked. If they press it, I just nod and smile and say something like "maybe I'll look into it sometime." No one has ever pressed further than that.

You like what you like, and that's that. And if people can't handle that, that's not YOUR problem, it's THEIRS.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 PM on September 28, 2011


Do you have an interest in having relationships with people at work, school, etc? If so, you might try asking them what they enjoy about Survivor, or to tell you about that movie. I really hate having people tell me, in detail, about a movie that I would hate to see. But some people just love to tell you the plot, the story, etc., in abundant detail. So, put on a smile, and let them. Your references may be coming off as one-up-manship, even if you don't intend it. So try to let others steer the conversation. Focus more of your own attention on things you do share with people.

Real friendship requires some sort of common ground. Do you like sports, rock-n-roll, or other local events? Go do things with people. Tennis or basketball at the park doesn't require cultural reference. Going to see local bands, eat good food at restaurants, or hiking, cycling, etc., whatever. Shared experiences help people connect.
posted by Mom at 7:17 PM on September 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: > Being a bit of a media snob/hipster myself, I would hear this as hipster one-up manship. Like, "Doctor Who? I'm sure that's okay but have you heard of Adam Adamant? Oh, probably not--it only lasted one season in the sixties."

Funny you should mention that. I was at a board game night hosted by someone who's really into the new Who. I haven't seen any new Who, ever, but I have seen some stuff with the fourth Doctor late at night as a child, and I kind of liked it. So that's what I said. There followed an uncomfortable conversation about how the new Who obviously supersedes the old show, which was obviously really bad and had bad acting and bad special effects.
posted by Nomyte at 7:23 PM on September 28, 2011


Response by poster: Mom, I couldn't resist making a comment addressing you by your username. That is a funny username!
posted by Nomyte at 7:25 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I haven't seen any new Who, ever, but I have seen some stuff with the fourth Doctor late at night as a child, and I kind of liked it. So that's what I said. There followed an uncomfortable conversation about how the new Who obviously supersedes the old show, which was obviously really bad and had bad acting and bad special effects.

In conversations like that, the problem isn't your having "opted out of popular culture." The problem is that the people who pull that kind of crap on you are snobby fucksticks.

Fuck 'em and do what you want. You're alright.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:27 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


I understand your situation. I was raised in Europe as a military kid and all the pop-culture stuff was way behind the States. We had one channel in English, and all the commercials were for military stuff. Fads and fashions came to us at least a year behind, sometimes way longer.

We moved back when I was 9 and I am still playing catch up. There are a lot of pop-culture references from the 80s that I just don't get (I missed the whole "Where's the Beef" thing) There are also things that I remember distinctly even though I should have been too young because the fad took longer to get to us.

I don't really know what you can say to people that would be light and change the subject. When something like this comes up for me I usually just say something about how I had a sheltered childhood and I must have missed that.
posted by TooFewShoes at 7:38 PM on September 28, 2011


Response by poster: I guess Dr. Who is a sore topic. Instead, I should've perhaps mentioned an unrelated occasion when I was playing Arkham Horror with another small group (some of whom were sewing Cthulhu plushies) where it quickly became apparent that not only had no one ever read any actual H. P. Lovecraft, but that the very idea of reading stuffy, old stories like that was alien to them.

Maybe part of the problem is that the nerds I hang out with are very narrow-minded.
posted by Nomyte at 7:40 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm not saying this is all your fault or anything, but I do think it's important that you at least entertain the idea that you're not coming off great in these conversations.

Using your last example, I think it's important that you believe that it's okay for people to enjoy Lovecraft on a different level than you do. That's just how they are! There's nothing inherently better about enjoying the original books compared to enjoy the board game.

I don't think your friends are narrow minded, any more than you're narrow minded for not watching contemporary TV.
posted by auto-correct at 7:47 PM on September 28, 2011 [4 favorites]


Response by poster: I am not actually a fan of H. P. Lovecraft. I've read very little of him. I just didn't realize that some people are part of the Cthulhu fandom without having read at least some Lovecraft, or that some fans can completely dismiss the source material for being "old." It strikes me the same way as someone being a Potter fanatic without having read a single book, because "books are boring." I've just never seen that.
(P.S.: I have no stance on Harry Potter. It's used above for purely illustrative purposes.)
(P.P.S.: I'll be watching the thread, but avoiding making further comments.)

posted by Nomyte at 8:02 PM on September 28, 2011


Best answer: To me, the essence of the problem lies in the way the dichotomy between high-brow and low-brow/pop culture is perceived, by people you interact with, and, clearly, by a lot of people in this thread. I've grown up close to were you are coming from (Eastern Europe), and, the first time I truly became aware of this way of framing things, I felt like I had been hit by a ton of bricks. We had our own, but very different, dichotomies.

When I was a kid, and until my adolescence, we had no TV. Sure, we had the object in our house, but there was no use in turning it on - only party news, our beloved leader, and the occasional Tom and Jerry cartoon/ Hollywood musical. In relation to books - there was no "newest book", there were just bookshops lined with ever-repeating party congress reports, and the odd good title occasionally and miraculously slipping through (libraries were treasure-troves). No society news, no magazines, no western music, nothing pertaining to western culture. Our lives were full, very much so, and to some extent with what could be termed our own "pop" culture. But, given that our enemy was not elitism, (in fact, elitism was our ally, given the excruciating lack of education displayed by most of those in power) but rather a tyrannical, cruel, cretinous and cretinising regime, given that our most widely shared cultural common denominator had to be achieved against the grain, frequently, and with laughably insufficient means, comparatively, our "pop" culture looked very different from what is commonly understood when that term is used.

I think most people would be very receptive were you to explain to them the genesis of your difference, pop-culturally speaking, and many might find it quite interesting. I also think you will hardly ever find someone patient enough to listen to you expounding on these things. After all, one of the functions of pop-culture is to provide a lubricant for social communication. As things stand, in your current culture, you are preventing the smooth running of things - by not seemlessly participating, you are an obstacle to the flow of interaction. Even more so to the extent that you are highlighing the scaffolding, as it were, of social interaction to the detriment of its perceived, and preferred, natural feel. Other than very occasionally, you explaining where you are coming from, and musing on the different "pop cultures" out there in the world will be blocked for the same reason - it is a hindrance to one of the important functions such conversations perform.

This is probably inevitable for a lot of us. You grow up and acquire a lot of your habits - intellectual and social - in a certain environment, you get displaced, and suddenly a lot of things get questioned (at times, this is very welcome), many of your natural responses and attitudes are thrown into shrill light etc. In an important sense you are the eternal guest (and, if you sepnd a lot of time between cultures, you can end up feeling homeless, with none of the pop-culture-type bonds anywhere, cause you are losing the train everywhere, including in your initial culture), with tastes, and inclinations and preferences and behaviours which will always be under scrutiny. Annoyance at being found insincere by quite a few people (or at being judged a poseur) is, I think, one of the milder symptoms here.

And the dangers (annoyance, sadness, loneliness, dispair, unhappiness etc, some bigger, some more easily dealt with) don't befall just people who make such big transitions, but can also affect anyone who transitions between cultures and sub-cultures - country to town, rest-of-the-world to academia, any minority to mainstream and vice-versa. I think what you are describing is symptomatic, but at the same time, if that is the only culture-clash fall-out you are experiencing, you are quite lucky.

As in other inter-human situations, I think it is also important to remember that if you cannot remove what is irksome from a situation, you can remove yourself from it. If people you enjoy are questioning your pop-culture standards, try to find a moment and explain where you are coming from. In any given relationship you'll do this a few times before the person gets the drift. With people who are at the periphery of your life - well, if it irks, drop them. Or get out of there if the conversation gets too "technical", as you would if you were, say, in a group of medics starting to talk gibberish about the human body and its ailments. You are right - and my own experience, and that of friends who were non-natives of my own western country (not US) is much closer to yours than that of people who profess never to have had similar conversations - this does pop up quite a bit, and it is a drag. But: 1. really, what does it matter if somebody thinks you are trying too hard? If you are going to see them again and build a relationship with them, you'll get the opportunity to say your piece, and have a more restful relationship in the future. And if not - what's the trouble with one half-forgotten face thinking you are - well, anything at all? 2. if you think about this - just as you are having such problems with communicating and relating in your new culture, so will people from this new culture have problems elsewhere, maybe even in your home culture. Their own pop-culture, which currently confounds you in this manner, might be for them a source of misunderstanding and mis-communication. THis is one of the prices we pay for tasting the riches of a very open world.
posted by miorita at 8:08 PM on September 28, 2011 [19 favorites]


Right, I was just using that as an example that maybe represents the problem as a whole.

If you decide that you're going to look down on people who don't read old books, that's ok! It's your right to decide to just be friends whose tastes you agree with.

But if you want to be friends with people who don't share your taste in culture, you need to accept that their tastes are just as valid as yours.

Remember, while they're dismissing old culture by not reading Lovecraft or watching The Prisoner or whatever, you've been implicitely dismissing lots of new culture. Two sides of the same coin!
posted by auto-correct at 8:10 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I too pretty much ignore whatever is going on in popular music and movies and such, and do not own or watch television. I understand very well how this comes up, and I know that it doesn't require the not-pop-culture person to be an elitist jerk for it to do so. All it takes is not knowing, say, Britney Spears, from a few years ago, or Lady Gaga now. Because that does come up in conversation, and you are expected to know what it's all about. And it's not necessarily snobbery which makes one uninterested in such things, it's just lack of interest.

I just don't want to fight about it, so I go self-deprecating. I tell people I'm pretty much culturally illiterate, which is in no way true but lets them know I am not alleging that I am superior to them because of my unfamiliarity with whatever it is they're talking about, and bow out and let them chat with people who know about it. It seems to go over all right most of the time. Certainly my friends don't care, and if strangers do, it doesn't really bother me. I am, however, quite fortunate in the friends I've picked up, so of course Your Mileage Et Cetera.
posted by Because at 8:31 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]



I am not actually a fan of H. P. Lovecraft. I've read very little of him. I just didn't realize that some people are part of the Cthulhu fandom without having read at least some Lovecraft, or that some fans can completely dismiss the source material for being "old." It strikes me the same way as someone being a Potter fanatic without having read a single book, because "books are boring." I've just never seen that.


I think that when you're even arguing with fellow nerds it can get too much. I use Lovecraft as a symbol of alienation and paranoia. Some people like Cthluhu because he has cool tentacles, or was in a Metallica song, or something. Everybody has big pop culture blind spots.


But if you want to be friends with people who don't share your taste in culture, you need to accept that their tastes are just as valid as yours.

Remember, while they're dismissing old culture by not reading Lovecraft or watching The Prisoner or whatever, you've been implicitely dismissing lots of new culture. Two sides of the same coin!


Yeah this. The Prisnor is awesome, but LOST has inspired the same devotion.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 9:00 PM on September 28, 2011


I don't have a TV either and am also unaware of bits (okay large parts) of pop culture. This is a solution that has worked for me, but I never have these conversations with acquaintances because there is no need for them to know whether I have or dont have a TV.

Just view it as something that is important to them and they just want to share their favorite book, funny show, etc. with you. That's it. Just share and partake what they are telling you about -- if it is some comedian they refer to over and over again, have a conversation about why they like it, explain that you don't have a TV, but if they could send a clip on the internet? Watch it. If you like it, tell them that you liked it too, and why. But it really doesn't take that much time -- a few minutes to watch the clip. A few conversations to get insights into what they find interesting and why.

If these are people who you want to be friends with though, it shouldn't stop there. Also tell them about things that you like. Send them a clip or an article. To me, the ones that exchange information back and forth, are curious, and share thoughtful comments are the ones that become friends.

As long as they are respectful and are mutually curious, it can open you up to new music, new books, new points of view.
posted by Wolfster at 9:06 PM on September 28, 2011


Oh, and just something I found when the issues you described really got to me (amongst other things). This was on a site of native American quotes, or something like this, I don't remember it exactly:

"Oh, the comfort, the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person, having neither to weigh thought nor measure words, but pouring them all right out, just as they are, chaff and grain together, certain that a faithful hand will take and sift them, keep what is worth keeping, and with a breath of kindness, blow the rest away".
posted by miorita at 9:12 PM on September 28, 2011 [8 favorites]


If others don't like it, that's sort of their problem.

I'm in 80% agreement with this sentiment (popular in this thread). Be yourself. But I would contend that one important way to foster healthy relationships out in public (if you desire such a thing) is to participate in a common, popular culture to some minimal degree. Otherwise, relationships outside your inner circle will probably suffer. Why?

1. The "Missing out" Factor. It probably strikes many people as ill-advised to never opt in into popular culture of your time and place, whether incidentally or on principle. Hype is certainly an inconsistent indicator of quality. However, this still means that occasionally it is a decent indicator (e.g. The Wire). Dip your toes in occasionally. In the same way that one would keep up with the news, why not be somewhat sensitive to those pop culture items that would at least potentially appeal to you? There are real diamonds to be discovered in the rough. And there's a greater chance of your conversation partner being in the loop. Otherwise, it's an abrupt, awkward "You're missing out."

2. The Snob Factor. I suspect that conversation partners would bristle at your seeming unwillingness to participate in popular culture and the effort it requires to sustain this lack of participation. You claim that your tastes in obscure things are the result of an effortless state of affairs; is that really true? It takes more effort to avoid Mad Men than The Twilight Zone. It takes more effort to avoid Lady Gaga than Laurie Anderson. I think people are naturally going to be suspicious of anything more "effortful" as an attempt to prove something. In this case, your highbrow sensibilities.

Personally, I would counter all attempts to draw attention to my "obscure" tastes with a casual mention of one of my less "obscure" ones. Show you're not completely cut off from the here and now. Well-rounded is key.

You'll have to explain to me again why you have no interest in the unmissable The Wire...certainly not because it's very popular?
posted by stroke_count at 9:17 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: I got into Laurie Anderson because I randomly checked out Life on a String from the public library.

I've seen part of season 2 of The Wire. Or maybe it was season 3? It's the one with the drunk duck episode. I never bothered to watch the rest of it because it's 60 hours long. What if I asked you to do something for 60 hours? During that time I could watch Fassbinder's Berlin Alexanderplatz six times over, and most people would not finish watching it because it's too long.

A lot of people here keep explicitly affirming a dichotomy that I just don't believe in: "old" versus "new." "New" is a moving target and "old" is everything mankind has produced in the last 7000 years. If that's not artificial, I don't know what is. If I chose things completely at random, with no preferences of any kind, it would be vanishingly unlikely that I ever watched or read anything from the past five years, ever.

I find auto-correct's claim that I like "old culture," pardon me, incoherent. Thirty-five years separate Lovecraft from The Prisoner, and another 45 years separate The Prisoner from Lost. The people who were eager to watch Lost five years ago would now probably dismiss it for being five years old. So the idea that I "dismiss" new culture is absurd. It'll still be there when I get around to it. The real problem seems to be that brand-new things aren't the majority of what I like. "Brand-new" is not an inherent good for me. It's meaningless.

Hype is ephemeral and unpredictable. Suppose I decided to watch all of the best picture Oscar winners from the last 70 years — how would that be any worse, or less reliable? My tastes only seem obscure to people who divide the world into "stuff that's hot right now" and "everything else." The title of this thread is an XTC lyric. Is a rock album that came out in 1982 part of "pop culture," or part of "old culture"? Depends on who you ask. I listen to music without much regard for year of release. So some people will get the impression that I intentionally dig up obscure things for the sake of claiming to genuinely like obscure things. Other people consider XTC a household name.

The other assumption that I find ridiculous is that it takes effort to "sustain a lack of participation." It takes no effort to avoid buying tickets to Lady Gaga. I don't care about Lady Gaga. I have no problem with Lady Gaga. I have no opinion about Lady Gaga. The entire notion of people getting bothered by Lady Gaga seems faintly ridiculous to me. Is that an "elitist" attitude? I have other things that absorb my attention and interest. It takes as much effort to avoid seeing Mad Men as it does to avoid seeing The Twilight Zone — zero. I'm effortlessly not seeing them right now.

As much as it feels like a copout to say, I will consider miorita's answer the best one, and chalk it up to a profound difference of sensibilities.
posted by Nomyte at 9:59 PM on September 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Nomyte, I consume culture the same way you do. I cherry pick eras, find out whats good, etc. But you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. There are many people who like LOST and Lovecraft, Twilight Zone and Twilight (maybe not that last one).

The title of this thread is an XTC lyric. Is a rock album that came out in 1982 part of "pop culture," or part of "old culture"? Depends on who you ask. I listen to music without much regard for year of release. So some people will get the impression that I intentionally dig up obscure things for the sake of claiming to genuinely like obscure things. Other people consider XTC a household name.

XTC are awesome, and you can get people into them by comparing them to whoever sounds most like XTC now, or a more popular similar band like The Kinks.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:07 PM on September 28, 2011


Response by poster: So, um, who does sound most like XTC now?
posted by Nomyte at 10:09 PM on September 28, 2011



I find auto-correct's claim that I like "old culture," pardon me, incoherent. Thirty-five years separate Lovecraft from The Prisoner, and another 45 years separate The Prisoner from Lost. The people who were eager to watch Lost five years ago would now probably dismiss it for being five years old. So the idea that I "dismiss" new culture is absurd. It'll still be there when I get around to it. The real problem seems to be that brand-new things aren't the majority of what I like. "Brand-new" is not an inherent good for me. It's meaningless.


Fans of LOST tend to be the sort of obsessive nerds who have already seen Twilight Zone through its constant airings on the sci-fi channel.

So, um, who does sound most like XTC now?

I dunno... like I said, I consume pop culture in the same magpie way you do. But there are plenty of smart indie pop bands that people talk about.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:15 PM on September 28, 2011


So the idea that I "dismiss" new culture is absurd. It'll still be there when I get around to it. The real problem seems to be that brand-new things aren't the majority of what I like. "Brand-new" is not an inherent good for me. It's meaningless.

I'm sorry, but your subsequent answers have only reinforced this for me: people are acting defensively because you're acting like a snob.

Look, I love lots of older-culture relics. I adore the Beatles, totally dig 70s feminist sci-fi. But that doesn't mean that new-culture artifacts which clearly appeal to my interests are bad, or less worthy of my time. If we were hanging out, and you were going on about the Fourth Doctor, I'd wonder why you didn't give any of the other Doctors a chance--not because they're fundamentally better (though I could see getting roped into a stupid argument about it because I'd likely feel judged, and feel defensive, as well), but because it sounds like something you'd be really into, because it's a quality series, because clearly you've heard about it before, because you can just as quickly get DVDs of newish stuff as old at most local libraries.

You're making value judgments not only about these things, but about the reason people like these things. People don't only like pop culture because it's a way to participate in trendy new stuff, or a way to connect with others--those things are actually tangential benefits. They like this stuff because they like it--because it's fun, of high quality, because it has redeemable qualities. It's unfair of your friends to snipe back about how the things you like suck, but they're almost undoubtedly doing that because you're judging them for liking the things that they like. You might say that you're not judging, but really, it's abundantly clear in this thread that you are, from the way you phrased your question to the anecdotes you provide in your answers.

And I say all of this, again, as a person who enjoys old stuff. I have shelves full of ancient Chinese poetry, for Pete's sake. Heck, I refuse to get rid of my VCR because I can get perfectly good VHS tapes for dirt cheap at the local thrift store. But that doesn't mean I shutter myself from new media. There's just too much fantastic, exciting, great stuff out there, and if you fall into making appeals to antiquity, you're going to miss out just as much as you would if you chose media based on novelty alone. Worse, if you judge people for enjoying easily accessible, new things--if you assume they only like them because they're new, or trendy--you're going to be alienating people who you might otherwise be connecting with about books, movies, television, art. And that would be a damn shame.

If I were in your position, I'd try being just a touch more open about things that your friends want to share with you. Maybe you'll like some of it; maybe you won't. But I think an openness and a willingness to try means a lot. Trust me--I once worked in an office full of Twimoms. I didn't love Twilight, but they seemed to appreciate that I gave it a try, at least, and later I was able to share some books I did love with them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:44 PM on September 28, 2011 [21 favorites]


Yeh the one upmanship of "Why should I watch the wire when I could listen to the entire cycle of Der Ring des Nibelungen? Ahh but Wagner is so passe, what about the Schoenberg variations?" and "I'm better than everyone else cos I could watch something they couldn't" which comes out of your post sounds pretty judgemental to me.

Avoiding popularity is just as bad as blindingly accepting anything popular. Its still letting popularity decide what you consume.

You like what you like, other people like what they like ... I've found the likes I have that other people don't are usually interesting discussion points... but if someone told me that they couldn't bear to watch something because theres something way more obscure that most people wouldn't have the patience to watch but I do I would think of the Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television onion article.
posted by Admira at 10:51 PM on September 28, 2011 [6 favorites]


Thought experiment:

In the example of Doctor Who, would you have hated it if you thought it was a new show? Would your opinion change when you found out how old it is?

As someone who mostly likes old music (and who can be a bit of a snob about it) I pretty much shrug and say something like "I grew up on classic rock, so I don't listen to much new stuff" and then make some joke about how much I need to pay to see Dylan or something. I don't always come across the best, but yeah.

Besides, you realize you're not the only one like this, right? I'm 26 and half my friends listen to Elvis and the Beatles.

Besides, there's always stuff that's like the old stuff. LOST or X-Files scratches some of that Twilight Zone itch. Slenderman Mythos is pretty Lovecraftian.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:52 PM on September 28, 2011


A lot of people here keep explicitly affirming a dichotomy that I just don't believe in: "old" versus "new."

Maybe the dichotomy is more along the lines of "relevant" versus "irrelevant". Maybe this is why The Wire appeals to so many more people than your alternative. The criminal underworld of modern day America versus the criminal underworld of 1920's Berlin. What do you honestly expect?

The other assumption that I find ridiculous is that it takes effort to "sustain a lack of participation."

You'll notice (or maybe you won't) from the activity in the world around you that certain culture items enjoy much wider currency than other items. They are hyped, discussed, dissected, lauded, and recommended widely. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to suggest that it takes more effort to suppress at least mild curiosity at these items over more "obscure" items that I would need to actively search out for on my own through a cultural wasteland and use my own biased, uncertain judgment to determine their worthwhileness. Popularity sometimes performs the quality check for you in a sense. It is not ridiculous to wonder why it is that this particular item has garnered such great attention (from respected critics), while this other item has toiled in obscurity. Of course it's not always fair. But sometimes it is fair. Does the cream not sometimes rise to the top? You can't honestly argue that skimming off the cream requires equal effort to rooting around below it.

It's a matter of ignoring the contents that dominate everyday conversation, over the internet and IRL. Apparently this is an incredibly effortless task for you.
posted by stroke_count at 10:54 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Yeh the one upmanship of "Why should I watch the wire when I could listen to the entire cycle of Der Ring des Nibelungen? Ahh but Wagner is so passe, what about the Schoenberg variations?" and "I'm better than everyone else cos I could watch something they couldn't" which comes out of your post sounds pretty judgemental to me.

Wow. What a beautiful strawman.

In the example of Doctor Who, would you have hated it if you thought it was a new show? Would your opinion change when you found out how old it is?

No. I don't "hate new things." I just rarely get to them while they're still new, and I'm in no hurry to.
posted by Nomyte at 10:55 PM on September 28, 2011


You can always just listen to enough of say, Lady Gaga or read enough Twilight to make snobby value judgements on it.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:55 PM on September 28, 2011


No. I don't "hate new things." I just rarely get to them while they're still new, and I'm in no hurry to.

Again, I'm exactly the same way. And I don't think it every comes up unless I specifically ask somebody about something old.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:56 PM on September 28, 2011


I think you answer your own question. You ask how can I avoid talking about why I don't like pop culture, and from the way you've talked about it here, it seems like very few people would want to talk to you about it for long. I'm honestly not sure if you're asking the right question here - it sounds more like you just wished people accepted you were right so you wouldn't have to convince them of it.

If, really, the question is how do you curtail the conversation of why you aren't knowledgable or interested in something in pop culture, there are many excuses given in these answers that would shut down that talk. But instead you, with a heavy heart no less, choose the longest response as the best answer?

Can you clarify your question?
posted by OrangeDrink at 10:57 PM on September 28, 2011 [4 favorites]


Response by poster: You can always just listen to enough of say, Lady Gaga or read enough Twilight to make snobby value judgements on it.

Yeah, see, that would be silly.
posted by Nomyte at 11:02 PM on September 28, 2011


Yeah, no offence, but you do come off as a bit of a snob here. Not because of what you like -- but because you do seem to be judging people who like current popular culture. You might not be intending to, but that's the way it reads to me (and I'm generally quite thick-skinned; I'm not offended but I probably wouldn't feel like engaging with you on any of these topics).

Also, I agree with stroke_count. It actually does take a fair amount of effort to avoid current pop culture (assuming you actually talk to people, live in a mainstream US city, and have a normal job). I totally get how childhood experiences would mean you missed out on a bunch then -- I'm the same way -- but that was then, this is now. It's hard to avoid hearing about certain elements of pop culture, and if you hear enough good things then why wouldn't you try them to see if you like them unless you're actually trying to avoid them?

Take the example of The Wire. You say you didn't watch it because it would take 60 hours to go through. But it would only take a few hours to watch the first few episodes and decide whether you liked it enough to watch the rest. And if you like it, then that's 60 hours of fun! Why wouldn't you want to try something that might provide you with hours and hours of entertainment - and let you get into conversations with the loads of people who also enjoy it, besides? That, coupled with the way you've been talking, makes me suspect that you're actually avoiding current pop culture for some reason -- and that avoidance is part of what reads as snobby.
posted by forza at 11:04 PM on September 28, 2011 [4 favorites]


In what ways are you willing to change in order to get the outcome you want? Because you're coming across really offputtingly. Is your question "How do I get out of this conversation without being grilled about why I dropped out of contemporary pop culture," or is it "How do I make people quit thinking their interests are just as good as mine," or is it something else?
posted by KathrynT at 11:07 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


Wow. What a beautiful strawman.

100% correct and I apologise for the judgemental part of my post, it was meant as an interpretation of some of what you said, and reflects more on me than anything else.

I stand by the rest of my comment though.
posted by Admira at 11:08 PM on September 28, 2011


It's also... ya know how you assume certain things are bad? Like fair enough, Lady Gaga and Twilight are shit. You also have to assume that certain things are good. I haven't seen The Wire or Breaking Bad, but I make it clear in any conversation that I PLAN ON SEEING THEM, and then ask not to be spoilered.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:09 PM on September 28, 2011


Response by poster: It's also... ya know how you assume certain things are bad?

Sigh… I do what now?

Maybe the dichotomy is more along the lines of "relevant" versus "irrelevant".

This makes no sense. There's a popular show about vampires in Louisiana. There's another very popular show about Atlantic City during the Prohibition. I'm not sure "relevant" has anything to do with it.
posted by Nomyte at 11:16 PM on September 28, 2011


It's also... ya know how you assume certain things are bad? Like fair enough, Lady Gaga and Twilight are shit. You also have to assume that certain things are good. I haven't seen The Wire or Breaking Bad, but I make it clear in any conversation that I PLAN ON SEEING THEM, and then ask not to be spoilered.

I dunno. The first Twilight had some nice, atmospheric writing.

It's not silly to give things a try, and you don't have to be a completist. Most people have not seen all of every #bighypedshow or read every single #popularYAseries ever. I say, when a friend brings up something like that, seek out an episode or three. This necessitates trusting their judgment and their enthusiasm, but takes very little time commitment at all. That gets rid of the lack of familiarity with pop culture items and, if you don't like something, you'll be well-informed enough to say why. I never read past the first two Harry Potter books, and I'm a YA author, and no one cares; I gave Firefly a shot, but hate space without aliens, so I didn't stick with it. I can count the number of times that's even come up on one hand. But having well-informed opinions about things makes you a much more interesting dinner companion. It gives you and your friends something to connect about without dismissing their opinions automatically as turds. The "I'm in no hurry to" would drive me nuts, were I your friend. I want to share things I like with you! Talking about this stuff is fun!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:18 PM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


In the lovecraft example, it feels like that would have been a good opportunity to extoll the virtues of the "old" texts. Acknowledge that they're old, yeah, but maybe they hold up really well. Or maybe that's what makes them unique - their antique flavour makes it more interesting or something. Explain a bit about how novel it is to read such-and-such and know that he was the first person to use such a literary technique. (Note: I have never read any lovecraft, I have no idea what his books are like.)

Alternate with genuine curiosity about what your friends are talking about. In both situations, leave value judgements to a bare minimum. A light-hearted, open attitude will work wonders.

These are opportunities for you to connect with people you like. Start connecting.

(If these are not people you like or would like to like, then who cares?)
posted by TangoCharlie at 11:43 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


What about,

"I haven't seen Lost, but I've heard it's a lot like this old show I used to watch - have you heard of The Prisoner? - it's about such and such and such. I really enjoyed it, so do you think I should give Lost a shot?"

Which means you get to hear more of what Lost is like, AND you might get this friend interested in The Prisoner. Assuming, of course, that you're aiming to build a connection.
posted by TangoCharlie at 11:49 PM on September 28, 2011 [7 favorites]


"Live Together, Die Alone" is pretty far from "I am not a number. I am a free man!"
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:56 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Hey, I'm like you. My reading list is full of obscure stuff I downloaded for free on the Kindle. Some of it is thousands of years old. Some of it obscure stuff from the turn of the century. I watch movies by theme, not by era. I don't give a crap about popular culture and never have.

But I don't get into these discussions with people... probably because I don't judge others based on their media consumption. I judge them based on their production of awesomeness.

I think you have a big blind spot here. It's not the newness, oldness, obscureness, relevantness, domesticness, foreignness, or anything else about the media that's the problem. This is not an artistic issue. This is a psychosocial issue.

There seem to be two issues:
1. Your ego depends on your seeing yourself as an educated, eclectic consumer of media.
2. Others don't see you this way or don't appreciate it.

The solution is to:
1. Base your ego on something else.
2. Hang out with people who see you the way you see yourself.

What to say to your current friends, in the near future? Just be social and kind. I have a lot of conversations like this:

You: "Oh, you like Lost? How interesting. I've never seen it. What do you like about it?"
Friend: "You've never seen Lost?! How can you never have seen Lost?!"
You: "I tend to watch tv/movies based on my interests, not current popularity. Tell me more about the show."
Friend: Blah Blah
You: "Hey, do you want to see ObscureShow with me sometime? It's about x and here is why it's so great."
posted by 3491again at 12:20 AM on September 29, 2011 [7 favorites]


Why would somebody with such highbrow interests be into a women in prison soap opera?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:33 AM on September 29, 2011


The "I'm in no hurry to" would drive me nuts, were I your friend. I want to share things I like with you! Talking about this stuff is fun!

Your predilection for older media is well and good. You shouldn't feel bad (and you evidently don't) for not keeping up with new entertainments, per se. But if you are consuming certain media alone and all your friends are consuming something else--it is, if not anti-social, at least asocial. And being asocial is unusual. Not sharing cultural touchstones with your friends is unusual, and you are experiencing predictable friction from that.

I've experienced it myself, since I also grew up abroad. There are ways of getting around this, though. Sitting down for Youtube marathons of old clips, with curatorial control alternating between me and a friend ("Hey this is great! It reminds me of a show from the US, let me find the scene I'm thinking of...") was great fun, and helped build a shared vocabulary.

I suggest that you either 1) try out popular entertainments that match what your current friends consume; 2) find new friends with whom you can appreciate the entertainments you do enjoy; 3) Reconcile yourself to this mismatch and make use of the kind of conversational gambits suggested in this thread. I would recommend a mix of 1) and 2), as with my Youtube marathon experience, but it requires some active work on both your and your friends' parts in educating each other. Active, but fun!
posted by col_pogo at 1:31 AM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


I reliably get asked, by puzzled, well-meaning people, what makes me opt out of popular culture. How do I reframe the conversation so that it's clear that I never opted in?

Forget about 'popular culture'.
It's a matter of interpretation. I love Grant Morisson's stuff but I bet loads would love to tell me about some way cooler comic book writer they know about. Others might think he's far out. Whatever. To me, he's an author who's cool. Not interested if he's part of the genre's popular culture or not.
People like talking about stuff.
Instead of worrying about reframing the conversation to explain you're not part of (their) popular culture just give them space to talk about stuff they like (popular or not).
posted by mkdirusername at 2:14 AM on September 29, 2011


Best answer: I've been thinking a lot about this, as its apparent my initial response was me projecting my own experiences and this has been a self learning experience for me, believe it or not!

I know several people who fit the categories you listed: International upbringing, use largely the public library, don't own a tv and don't like going to the movies.

I've chatted with them and they don't seem to have the same experience with people wanting to quizz them about their tastes. In fact they've found these experiences to be fruit for interesting discussions about the differences in upbrings and its influence on their tastes... so ... Focusing on the question "How can I best nip conversations on this sordid topic in the bud?"

I really don't think you can. But you can guide the conversations. Your upbringing is different, your tastes are different, and people will want to talk about it. Its a good thing I think. Instead of travelling down the conversational path that will lead to what we've seen in this thread (where you might end up debating old vs new as a false dichotomy, or how you compare watching the wire to watching something that most people wouldn't watch), try to guide the conversations into your life experiences. This will give people background to your tastes, and could lead them to investigate their own consumption of popular media and also how to broaden their tastes.

I would forget about phrases like "opt out of popular culture" or that you never opted in, it will make people defensive and puts their tastes and yours in a them and us scenario.

For instance a conversation might go:

Notyou: "Hey that reminds me of that episode of Lost where that thing happened, right?"
You: "Oh I haven't really gotten into Lost yet, but I've heard its a bit like Prisoner, that British Prison series"
Notyou: "You haven't seen lost? whoa... whats that Prisoner show? Haven't heard of that one"
You: "Well my Dad was a foriegn correspondant, and when he was in Slovenistania that was the only English speaking TV show, its pretty cool once you get into it"
Notyou: "Wow Slovenistania, I hear that place is amazing, what was it like?"
You: "Yeah pretty nice, but the next place we lived in was nicer..."

Etc.

I hope that helps.
posted by Admira at 2:54 AM on September 29, 2011


I'm another one without a TV and my music collection is mainly old prog rock and alt/folk from the 70s.

And yeah, like Admira says, I enjoy these conversations! Particularly the TV thing - I like being a gentle reminder that life is possible without a TV :)

I don't mind them talking about shows or movies I don't know anything about. A lot of them sound pretty dire, so I ask all about it, do a bit of cultural rubbernecking, and then tell them about something I like in return. It works ok for me!
posted by greenish at 3:12 AM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


Best answer: I think a lot of commenters are overlooking the "international upbringing" aspect and how that could affect the assumption of "having to work to avoid current popular culture". I grew up in the US and have lived in Europe for 14 years now, and I have to agree that it is very easy to be entirely, sincerely, unaware of what is "popular" in a country that is not the one you grew up in, despite living there for years.

Part of that is the very defensiveness of responses such as "but it takes an effort to avoid it!!" Well, no, actually, as the OP has said, it takes no effort whatsoever... I don't have a TV, don't listen to the radio, and read the news online. I honestly have no idea which TV shows are popular in France right now, nor do I know which books people are hugely into.

Really. I have no idea whatsoever. And I've lived in France for 12 years all told.

People talk to me about things they like, and what I hear is "I like this because of X", I don't know whether it's popular or not. I only know if it's popular if/when someone breathlessly exclaims, "how can you NOT know that it's popular?? You're doing this on purpose, right??"

Nope... not at all... I have no way of judging what's current, popular, or not, unless someone else brings it up, and even then, often times I'll hear other people tell me, "who told you X was popular? It's trash" or some such.

When you're literally an outsider who comes from a different background, you're left with your own tastes, your own sincerity, and a trust... often more like a faint hope, since it is often rare... that others will approach you with the same genuine sincerity so that you can build a conversation based on what they say they like, what you say you like, and that there won't be any out-of-the-blue "OMG you're so pretentious you have to be avoiding this on purpose" to surprise you (that is an example from my own life – I hear it on occasion, though it's more rare than its "OMG you can't possibly NOT know X" sibling).

Long story short, I wish I could favorite miorita's best answer more than once because it's so well-put. You just have to live with the fact that others have their own yardsticks while you use metric, smile at the occasional silliness of it all, enjoy life and enjoy people as you can. (Ignore the ones who judge you for things you know you're not, so long as they're not close friends who know you well and who might be trying to help you see something about yourself. But it doesn't sound like that's the case here.)
posted by fraula at 4:42 AM on September 29, 2011 [5 favorites]


I haven't read the entire thread here, just skimmed it, but I think the OP is getting a lot of flak here that they don't deserve. I really don't think they're coming across as snobbish here (they might in person, who knows?) when talking about this stuff. Actually, I'm a little baffled by some of the vehement responses. The OP is offering examples to illustrate the problem they have, which includes giving books/films/shows they have and haven't seen. They don't seem particularly judgemental to me.

I don't have a TV or, usually, watch TV series on DVD. This isn't because I have Higher Pursuits To Follow - TV just doesn't really hold my interest and the license fee is too much to pay for something I would forget to use. The annoying conversations the OP is talking about happen for me as well - not all the time, but enough for them to be a theme I recognise. They used to look something like this:

Friend 1: ... so did you see [New Show] last night?
Me: Um, no, I don't have a TV.
Friends 1, 2, 3: [Reams of questions about my bizarre, puritanical and judgemental lifestyle.]
Me (in the small gaps in between): No... I just don't really like watching TV...

I have improved my technique, and now the conversations are more like this:

Friend 1: ... so did you see [New Show] last night?
Me: Um, no, I don't really watch it. What happened?
Friends 1, 2, 3: [Long explanation of New Show's plot, cultural significance, actors, related programmes, etc.]
Me (in the small gaps between): Oh, I think I saw some of [Older Show] - wasn't that the one with that red-haired woman in it? / So wait, why didn't the gangster want to tell his mother where he'd got all the flowers? / [Other questions to keep the conversation flowing.]

This works a lot better. As was noted upthread, people often enjoy talking about the plots of books/movies/TV shows they like. If there's a group of people who like the same media, they can still talk about it together and most of the time they don't seem to mind filling in extra information for me.

A lot of the time, too, though I might not know much about the media in question, I know enough to participate somewhat in conversation. (Everything I know about The Wire, I learned from the teasers of Metafilter FPPs. Thanks, guys, it helped!) I think PhoBWanKenobi is right about it being the friendly thing to do to assume that the things your friends like are good and to accept their advice on new things to check out. (I still don't think, at all, that the OP has shown any evidence of asssuming things to be bad.)

When it comes to talking about books or films that I like, I do it happily and enthusiastically ... and kind of try to downplay the obscurity of the ones that aren't mainstream. This may be a hard thing to finesse if you find it hard to judge what is and isn't mainstream/popular in the first place! I look for connections between the books or films and what I know the other person likes, make recommendations, turn things back towards them when it seems appropriate - just like in any conversation.

It took me a long while, when I left home, to get to grips with this idea of culture as something everyone experiences at the same time, and the assumption people make that all their friends will have seen the same shows (e.g.) as them. In the OP's example conversation about Lost vs. The Prisoner, that's the mistake both parties make, and both find it somewhat alienating! I think trying to avoid this assumption can help in this type of conversation.

So, those are some of the tactics I use in conversation (for small talk, at least), and they work. But sometimes things still go like this:

Friend 1: ... so did you see [New Show] last night?
Me: Um, no, I don't really watch it. What happened?
Friend 2: You don't watch it? Well, do you watch [Other Show] or [Yet Another Show]?
Me: Heh, I don't really watch a lot of TV. What do you like about [New Show]?
Friends 1, 2, 3: [Reams of questions about my bizarre, puritanical and judgemental lifestyle.]
Me (in the small gaps in between): No... I just don't really like watching TV...

I haven't found a foolproof way of circumventing this but it doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I have friends whose mainstream and non-mainstream interests align with mine; with people whose interests don't, I can generally keep a conversation going; and I've resigned myself to the fact that a lot of conversations are meaning-light social glue, which often involves a certain amount of formalised teasing. A low level of this may be inescapable for the OP, as it is for many people. Maybe seeing it this way will help?

***

Yikes, sorry for this enormous comment. On preview, I think col_pogo and fraula put down a lot of the same stuff better than I did.
posted by daisyk at 6:06 AM on September 29, 2011 [5 favorites]


I often have similar experiences when in a group who supposedly are my peers (women of my age, and I am older than most here). I had the conventional upbringing in the 50s and 60s so can hold my own in nostalgia, but am very out of current pop culture, don't watch TV except for some nature and science specials, get my books from the library every week, see very few movies, no theatre, no current music, and have no interest in shopping, decorating, house stuff, and no grandkids. That leaves me out of 99% of casual discussion. I do not get attacked for it, just mostly ignored because I have nothing to say and on the few occasions I do say something am looked at as weird. So I have sympathy for the original poster on this topic, and yes, there is a kind of reverse snobbery from those who are "normal" in their interests as opposed to those not. It is not all the fault of the "different" person.
posted by mermayd at 6:27 AM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


I also think this is a particular pitfall of having mostly social relationships and conversations that are interacting over specific content. As I've gotten older I've moved away from these as much as possible. there's a lot to talk about in life that isn't about the relative merits of this versus that specific content. There are overarching idea strands, there is emotional/inner life, there are common, direct human sensory experiences like weather and food and design, there is travel, etc. I now almost always run like hell whenever people start quoting lines from movies or debating which [band|movie|game|book in a series] is the best|worst is the topic of discussion. It's frustratingly empty stuff.

So you could cultivate more universal discussion topics, and if your social set doesn't want to discuss those things, you could expand your social set.
posted by Miko at 6:32 AM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]


How can I best nip conversations on this sordid topic in the bud?

For a lot of people, life revolves around the latest music or television shows or movies or games. They see the march of progress in every release, every season, every trend. They may have forgotten 99 percent of what they thought was important two years ago, and they may never have sampled even a tiny fraction of what came before that, but that doesn't matter to them. What matters is what's happening now! now! now! It's a consumerist approach to culture: planned obsolescence, eternal upgrades, a drawer full of forgotten gadgets that have been replaced by more expensive gadgets that do pretty much the same things. Corporations love it.

You seem like a person who takes a longer view of things. You don't have to see this week's hit movie this week, this month, this year, or this decade. You don't need to read what the book club is discussing now. You know that there's plenty of older stuff you still haven't gotten around to, and that you have the rest of your life to get around to what's coming out now.

But when you confess that you don't know (or care) what's on the charts right now, it's a little like saying you're a vegetarian or an atheist: some people automatically respond as if you've attacked them and their family and way of life and God and country. For this offense, you must be interrogated and taken down a peg. They must know precisely why you do what you do so they can expose your unsound theories for what they are.

You need to find people who share your longer view of things, or who at least aren't thin skinned enough to take your view as something they must defend themselves against.

But for the sake of civility, you also need to at least pretend to be interested when they start talking about what was on last night. "No, our TV's broken [don't tell them that it's been that way since 1972], but tell me more! Prohibition-era zombie advertising executives, assassins, police officers, and an assistant DA or two all went to a dance competition with the stars of a show about four young singers locked in a house on an uncharted island being monitored by a shadow government's shadow police? What a hoot!"
posted by pracowity at 7:06 AM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


But if you are consuming certain media alone and all your friends are consuming something else--it is, if not anti-social, at least asocial. And being asocial is unusual. Not sharing cultural touchstones with your friends is unusual, and you are experiencing predictable friction from that. (emphasis added)

I can't help but wonder if this is part of a larger issue regarding what you take from your relationships with people in general. You talk about other people's engagement with pop culture as a "relationship with popular entertainment", but it's very much about their relationship with other people. It's not really about "opting in" as much as it is about following up on the recommendations of people you trust and find interesting. Whether or not something's old or new isn't at the heart of the issue; it's a matter of whether you're open to building shared curiosity with other people and frankly, it sounds like you're not.
posted by thisjax at 7:24 AM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


Thinking about this a little further, and seeing what answers you favorited, I understand the feeling of disconnect. I have close friends who grew up in Ireland or Eastern Europe, who aren't familiar with the stuff I loved as a kid at all. But we don't have these conversations. Further, you clearly are familiar with what's popular now--you know about Trueblood, Boardwalk Empire, the Wire, Doctor Who.

I want to let you know that I think you're missing out by actively choosing not to engage with other people over the things they love, by dismissing pursuing their recommendations because these new things are not "necessarily" as good as old things. It's another layer of meaning on top of the meaning you're accustomed to, it's true. But it also can heartily enrich media (just ask any college professor with a cultural studies focus). Art doesn't need to exist in a vacuum, isolated from the people who consume it, and by remaining open to the things that your friends suggest, you stand to actually have a deeper experience than the one you're having now. That doesn't mean you need to give up your old stuff completely, of course. But this was never the either/or proposition you've implied it was, anyway.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:42 AM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]


sordid topic

Sordid? Really? Maybe think about why you used that word.

In my experience, it's a small-talk-common-ground-finder; if someone gets judgey on you for not knowing the latest about Show Whatever, then drop them like a hot rock. With most of my close friends, we don't really discuss this stuff unless it's a thing that we all know we watch/listen to, or it's encouragement to check out [thing]. With acquaintances/work friends, there might be a work kitchen question about Hey did you see [thing] last night? No, I never got into [thing]; Oh, okay, [other subject].

I have a friend/co-worker on the other coast who's into a bunch of bands that I've mostly never heard of. When she tells me she's got front row tickets to see [band I've never heard of] and she's SO EXCITED, I'm just happy for her that she's so happy. If she asks if I like that band, I tell her that I'm not familiar with their stuff but I'm checking them out on youtube right now! and they look awesome have a great time etc. She doesn't want to feel sneered at for her taste in music, I don't want her to feel that way, and really what she wants is someone to go "Yay have a good time take pictures and tell facebook all about it!"

Regarding The Wire being long....well, so what? If you don't want to watch it because it just didn't grab you, okay. But it was on for years, and that's how a lot of people watched it - once a week for however many years, and that's how you can watch it too, if you want to.

[Disclaimer: in our household, we have the box set and yet haven't yet managed to get more than a few eps into season 1 (I know, I know!), in part because we keep managing to start watching it when baseball season starts, and since there are games one pretty much every night for months on end, this sucks up most of our evening TV time. Maybe we'll try to get an earlier start this year.]
posted by rtha at 8:01 AM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


Here's something that might be worth considering: it sounds like you're simply not interested in what people are creating *now,* anywhere in the world, popular or not. You may think it's irrelevant when something was created, but I think it is relevant what our contemporaries are doing and creating. Maybe it's because I am a creative person, and I make music, and I like seeing what others in my generation are doing at this time. But I also pretty much exclusively haunt the "classics" section at the library and read old books because I like seeing what people were writing about 100-200 years ago and how it relates to today. Currently I'm reading Wuthering Heights, mainly because I want to understand the Kate Bush song better, but also because I liked Jane Eyre, etc. Whatever, who cares, right?

Anyway - if you do want to amend this situation and make yourself feel at least a little more comfortable around those you spend time with, it would be worth exploring current culture, even if not popular, just to see what your fellow humans are creating at this particular moment in time. You don't need a TV to follow a series; most major networks now put full episodes of shows on their websites that you can watch for free.

You could try making it a goal of yours, since you do enjoy the arts even if not current ones, to watch one recently released movie a month, or something like that. See if any indie movies from the last year or so sound like they could match your preferences, and stream it online. I personally loved Winter's Bone, but I have no idea if you'd enjoy that. Or maybe get a subscription to The New Yorker, and, along with reading the fascinating articles that tend to be in there, read the listings- they include a lot of more obscure, limited release stuff. Read about the new movies coming out, the new plays, dance, etc. I never know what movies are out and generally the big budget stuff doesn't interest me, but I've gotten interested in various indie films and other current events from the little blurbs in there. It helps me feel more connected with what's going on these days without feeling like I'm being reeled in by hype.

I think what comes across in your conversations with these friends/acquaintances, as well as in this thread, is that you just don't seem to care about what is being created now. It makes you sound detached and uncaring about what others are doing in the present day, and makes you feel disconnected with your fellow humans, which I think is why it makes you sound snobbish to some, even if you aren't, really.
posted by wondermouse at 8:04 AM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


Why not just talk with them about why you like what you like, and ask them why they like what they like? And try to occasionally be open to seeing something that they're excited about if it sounds interesting? Just make it a give and take.

i.e.
You: "You like Lost? Cool!"
Them: "Oh, do you watch it too?"
You: "No, I've never seen it."
Them: "Really? You're crazy! It's great!"
You: "Hmm, I'd like to hear more about why you enjoy it."
Them: "Blah, blah, blah."
You: "Huh, that sounds like a show I really enjoyed-- The Prisoner. You know, the old British show? Because of blah, blah, blah."
Them: "I've never heard of it, but it sounds interesting."
You (optional, if it actually sounds at least somewhat interesting to you): "Anyway, so maybe I'll like Lost too. Maybe I'll check it out... although I've got a lot of things on my to-watch list already, so I'm not sure when I'll get to it! And if you ever want to watch The Prisoner I can lend you some tapes/you should come over for dinner and I'll show you some of my favorite episodes/etc." [Or, "Anyway, Lost sounds a little too X for my taste, I tend to prefer things that are more Y, like The Prisoner, but I can totally see why you like it so much."]

Basically you're putting your tastes/cultural consumption and theirs on an equal footing here. You're not conceding any ground on the idea that just because something is new and has hype, that means it's better in some way than what you're watching. But you're also 1) helping them understand why you like what you like-- you don't like The Prisoner just because it's old, you like it because of the reasons you just explained; and 2) displaying your openness to current stuff that your friends like, which both shows some respect for their opinions/desire to connect, and also shows that you're not explicitly boycotting new stuff, since you are willing to consider it once you get around to it (or you have specific reasons why you're not interested in whatever the thing is that they like, so it doesn't seem like you're just dismissing it out of hand because it's popular.)
posted by EmilyClimbs at 8:41 AM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


There's a culture of competitive connoisseurship that fuels a lot of media discussions that I find annoying. I'm not sure if you find them so, or merely want to engage in them with different media (though my description of it is not one which makes it sound worth pursuing.) If you get involved in this kind of dynamic, both your worth, and those of your companions, is evaluated by what you choose to consume. With the high stakes of worthiness, such interactions are always potentially fraught.

Your goal, to avoid danger, if you wish to talk to those who play this sport, is to let the other know that you respect them and their choices. Then they won't need to attack you (or question you in a way that feels uncomfortable). To do this convincingly, you actually have to respect them and their choices. If they like to watch Real Housewives of New Jersey, you need to identify with their anthropologist side which is marveling at this odd culture, rather than their critical gawker side. Let them tell you what they enjoyed and appreciate their capacity for pleasure. They may not be as skilled at letting you express your own enjoyment of something with which they are unfamiliar or actually dislike, but that's part of how the game is played.
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:56 AM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


As a culture I think we are very temporally centered - and being contemporary with each other, at least in America, is something that we profoundly think links us together, no matter how disparate our tastes and activities.

Where were you when we landed on the moon? Where were you when Kennedy was shot? Read My Lips No New Taxes, remember that? And the blue stained dress? Where were you on Election Night, 2008? Our connection to this time and this place is what brings us together and cultural signifiers crystallize the moment in representation.

In the absence of larger and more significant touchstones, we utilize much more diffuse pop culture events and trends that basically serve the same function. Did you see Janet Jackson's boob at the Superbowl? OMG Beyonce is KNOCKED UP YO #OVENBUNJAYZ. Ad nauseum.

I don't think people really care about whether or not you watched the final episode of "Lost." They want to know, obliquely, how you are PRESENT in today's society, in this very particular moment in our culture where a show like that could be popular and capture some people's imaginations because it particularly resonates with them about the way our world is now and the way people think or feel.

Maybe when people are somehow hurt by your lack of interest in contemporary pop culture, they take it as your rejection of being here and participating in our current world as we share it. They're essentially saying to you, "Wow, right? This crazy world we live in, right, brotherman?" And you're like, "Oh, what? I didn't notice, I'm not really here, don't mind me."

You say a lot about how the stuff you like was popular at some point, somewhere, so why should it matter? Because ultimately the issue isn't what's POPULAR. These are conversational attempts to bond over where and who we are NOW. Popular is just one facet of "now."
posted by sestaaak at 10:41 AM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


If you're really hoping to avoid these kinds of conversations, I would first of all avoid phrases like these:

I get exposed to less hype than most people
I never got on the treadmill of a new blockbuster every week

These come off as judgmental. People will naturally bristle at them and begin to reflexively defend themselves by questioning your motives.
posted by speicus at 11:25 AM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


I think the thing that may be rubbing people the wrong way, here and in real life, is that while it is true that it is possible to move somewhere as an adult and to be completely ignorant of that place's pop culture, I think that remaining ignorant--and judgemental--of that place's popular culture requires an extreme disinterest and lack of curiosity about the culture and place you have moved to. Not trying to discover anything about your new place's popular culture doesn't require any effort, like you keep pointing out, because all you have to do is stick to your old habits, retain your indifference/dislike of the dominant culture, and not try reaching out for anything new.

That's fine; you're not required to love a particular place or a particular culture. But while it might not require any effort, it is still a choice to not go investigating when someone mentions a new modern version of an old program that you liked, or a new book or musician that fits roughly into your areas of interest. And that's not a choice you're really owning at the moment, it seems to me, because you keep maintaining that these things just happen, as if it were possible to just accidentally fall into a hole while you're walking down the street and end up watching the entirety of Alexanderplatz. You talk as if all choices don't always involve two things at once: choosing for something and choosing against everything else.

And when you constantly choose not to investigate anything that your new set of contemporaries mention, then you're sort of acting like an ex-pat who moves to another country for work and who lives there for years, but who takes pride in not speaking the local language. And again, that's fine. You're allowed to live however you please. But it seems sort of disingenuous to me to blame all of the friction that results from that choice on everyone else just not understanding you.
posted by colfax at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2011 [5 favorites]


Best answer: This thread is so depressing. For whatever reason, popular TV/movie culture is simply the ONLY part of human culture that people will castigate you for being "asocial" or "unpresent" or "uninterested" or "detached" or you have a "lack of curiosity" if you don't know about it and don't dedicate at least a good chunk of your life to following it. People generally don't defensively and judgmentally out-group each other for not being up on the latest scientific research, newest cookbooks, art history, political happenings, nature documentaries, international relations, etc - but god forbid you simply aren't interested in spending 60 hours watching The Wire (seriously, I can't believe how some people have demanded that you "explain yourself" for this terrible oversight and crime against society).

For some reason, TV, movie, and celebrity culture just gets a special place in most peoples' hearts as being essential and utterly indispensable. If you aren't interested in this stuff, people will think that you must think you're better than them, that you are only into "highbrow" stuff, that you make a special effort to avoid it, that you must be into obscure stuff as an ego play - all attitudes you've seen in this thread. I disagree with this outlook, so I simply try to make friends who feel the same way as I do about this stuff, and smile and nod but ultimately demur when it comes up otherwise.

It is crucial to note that I truly and honestly don't think I'm better than anybody (and I don't think you think you are either); I just don't enjoy watching TV much, and I do enjoy spending my time doing stuff that other people seem to think is just inherently pretentious, like learning to ID plants or rocks or birds, or reading nonfiction, or meditating. The thing that people are rarely able to understand is that this is genuinely what I find entertaining, what I look forward to doing at the end of the day. It honestly serves the same purpose to me as watching TV or going to the movies. The really difficult trick is to find friends who feel the same, so that I can call them up and say "OMG I just saw the most beautiful cedar waxwing!! Want to go drive around and look at some cool soil profiles later?" and they actually share my excitement. It has made all the difference to simply own my interests - I am who I am, and I enjoy what I enjoy, and if this is alienating to many (most) people, it will also be a tremendous relief to others.
posted by dialetheia at 1:14 PM on September 29, 2011 [5 favorites]


I've found that the way to avoid discussing something you don't want (anything from a musician to your marriage) to is to never volunteer any personal information. If someone asks if you saw Lost that week (pulling a show from the thread), never really answer, never give a detailed answer, never give an excuse, don't provide any information about shows you've watched in the past, don't tell them what household electronics you own or don't own. Don't get pulled into a discussion

If you ask a general question about the show/whatever, hopefully that will derail it - such as "what time is that one on?"

then when they answer say something to the effect of "cool." if they ask if you've ever seen it/whatever, you can answer with one or two words - like "oh, no.", or if they say you should watch it say "oh yeah? cool." or "huh, neat." Makes it clear that you aren't really listening.

Then immediately ask if they have fun plans that weekend, or something, so that you are not ever discussing Lost/your cultural preferences in detail.

This works for me, at any rate.
posted by Acer_saccharum at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2011


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