Dog seeks rats
September 16, 2011 10:24 AM   Subscribe

Is it an insane idea to get my pet dog a pet rat?

I love my dog immensely. He's a 2 year old Boxer with lots of energy and, sadly, a hip problem that prevents him from expending all this energy. Before he was diagnosed we had a comfortable routine where he would get lots of exercise on our outings, and be comfortable sleeping the rest of the day as I worked (either from home or at the library).

Since his diagnosis I've had to restrict his exercise, and I now feel awful leaving him home alone. He is bored and chews up blankets. He is a maniac when I get home. I can't work from home anymore because he's too hyper. He has a kennel but I can only put him in there so often.

I've tried to do everything I can to stimulate him since he's on a reduced exercise regimen. All of his food now comes in puzzle or kong form. We've amped up obedience training so that his mind is getting a work out as well. None of this is working.

In addition, we've moved to a new town with no dog park and no dog friends. In our last city he had a couple low-key dog friends that he could play with, or I would bring him to the small dog park and he would let the little dogs jump all over him (we couldn't go to the big dog park because of all the running and rough-housing). I don't know if I'm projecting my loneliness on him, but I feel so bad for the little guy!

I live with my mom and we're both busy people. I try to never leave him alone for more than 6 hours a time, but it still seems like I'm asking him to just lie around and sleep his life away. I'm distraught that I can no longer bring him on day long hikes, and I can't afford the surgery that would allow me to do that.

I also can't afford another dog, or a cat. I'm now thinking of getting him two rats! Obviously I would never leave him unsupervised with him, but it would be someone to play with when I'm home and can't play with him, and while I'm gone in the day he could watch them in their cage. I've google "dog killed pet rat", "dog hurt pet rat", "dog loves pet rat" and "dog and pet rat friends", and the only results I find are the ones for dogs and rats loving each other! My expectations may be idealistic, but I just want my little buddy to have some little buddies.

Am I crazy for wanting to do this? I love rats because they're like little dogs. A roommate of mine once had rats and I really liked living with them. I would get two because I know they're social. They're cheap to maintain and don't smell very bad.

Give me what you've got, metafilter. Is it a dog-eat-rat world out there? Or do you think they could get along like rats and dog?
posted by whalebreath to Pets & Animals (35 answers total)
 
It's a sweet idea, but it assumes that your dog would have the...intellectual complexity necessary to gain enjoyment from watching rats in a cage. Or anything in a cage. And I'm not sure dogs really are able to do that; your rats would be more furniture, if they're in the cage, and would be chew toys if you leave them out, I'm afraid.

It's not a matter of "do dogs and rats get along," it's more like "are dogs intellectually capable of 'having pets' the way people do," and I'm not sure that they are.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2011 [2 favorites]


Does he have a really calm temperament? Is he good with strangers? Call around to nursing homes and hospitals to see if there are any therapy dog programs you can volunteer him for that don't require you to be around. It's really soothing to be able to just sit and pet a chill dog. He'd get some lovin' and so would the people who get to interact with him.
posted by phunniemee at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2011 [7 favorites]


I think this depends on your dog. Most boxers are really crazy and I'm not sure that buying a rat for him to play with would turn out so well. YMMV.

That's not to say that this won't be the case. This guy hung out in telluride when I lived there years ago.

As far as the hip dysplasia, you should ask for a referral to a surgeon as this may be something that is easily fixed.
posted by TheBones at 10:30 AM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


Even if the dog did enjoy watching the rats, having a dog staring at them all the time could seriously stress the rats out and have an impact on their quality of life. I don't think this is the right solution.
posted by illenion at 10:44 AM on September 16, 2011 [7 favorites]


My expectations may be idealistic, but I just want my little buddy to have some little buddies.

This is really not going to turn out the way you would like it to, I'm sorry. The best case scenario involves your dog watching the rats run around for a little while and then ignoring them. The worst case involves bloody rat pieces. Please do not do this.
posted by crankylex at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2011 [3 favorites]


I agree that it's good of you to think about this. We actually got our dog a pet kitten (it's our pet too, of course, but he was a major motivation) and it worked really well. We specifically chose a shelter cat who was very active and bold and they like to wrestle and run around together. I don't know enough about rats to know if they'd like playing with a dog or not.

I know you said you don't have the money for his surgery, but if there is a way to fix it, even an expensive way, I think you should take your energy off of thinking about other ways to distract your pup and put it towards finding the money for the surgery. Maybe a second job ... freelance ... something? Obviously "just get more money" isn't a good answer, and I'm sorry I can' t be of more concrete help. But I don't think this problem will really be solved until your dog can be active again like dogs are supposed to be.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 10:49 AM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


while I'm gone in the day he could watch them in their cage.

He could... but instead, I bet your dog would just ignore the rat-cage, and will just be chewing up more of your blankets.
posted by Rash at 10:53 AM on September 16, 2011


Some more brainstorming: have you tried asking your local animal shelters who they use for a vet and then calling that vet for a price quote? They are usually lower in cost or might be willing to give you a break/barter/something.

Apparently you can also use Care Credit for animal health costs too, and they have low/no interest loans.

You also might check out this list:
http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/resources/tips/trouble_affording_pet.html

And you can find lists of veterinary schools who often have lower cost services as well:
http://www.avma.org/education/cvea/colleges_accredited/colleges_accredited.asp

http://www.veterinaryschools.com/veterinary-school-directory/dvm-schools-colleges-programs/

I know you're asking about rats + dogs, not how to afford your surgery, but I think the latter is probably the better option.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 10:54 AM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


I had a dog and rats, and the dog never actually tried to kill them, but he acted like he would if unsupervised. But he was a terrier, so kind of bred to attack things like that.

I don't think you can assume this would work out, so better to try alternative solutions to the dog loneliness issue.

What about offering dog sitting or dog walking services?
posted by lollusc at 10:54 AM on September 16, 2011


Response by poster: Re: surgery. It is something I'd like to eventually do, but where I live it involves a trip to another province, hotels along the way, 5000$ for the surgery itself, and physiotherapy after the fact. Being a student who can't afford my own living expenses, it seems prohibitively expensive. Fundraising ideas welcome as a bonus question!
posted by whalebreath at 10:55 AM on September 16, 2011


What is wrong with his hip?

Where are you located?

Can your dog swim? It CAN be an excellent low-impact exercise for dogs but it might depend on the issue with his hip.

Google "nosework" - it can be fun for dogs and can tire them out without much cardiovascular exercise.

Post on Craigslist, local rescue group listservs or any local groups - explain your situation, what kind of dog would be ideal as a playmate, and any other details. I've needed to recruit strangers to help with training a foster dog before, and had great luck with rescue listservs.

Have you visited a second vet for another opinion on diagnosis and price for the surgery?
posted by barnone at 11:03 AM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


Where are you located as this makes a big difference. If you are close to a vet school, this surgery is usually cheaper. Also, it may not even be a surgical fix. You should, at the very least, do your due diligence for the dog and find out what can be done.

Is he on rimadyl? If not, that should help with pain.

Also, if you talk to a vet school or a teaching hospital, they may be able to write part of the surgery off (if it is needed, which may not actually be the case) as a teaching case. If you have only talked to your RDVM about this and they don't do surgery, then you need to get a second opinion and find out if the dog actually needs surgery.

I have been blasted in the past on askme for being too harsh about this, but when you got a dog, you should have realized that the dog may have medical issues that would cost money.
posted by TheBones at 11:11 AM on September 16, 2011


I think getting another, smaller dog would provide more companionship and enjoyment for him than would a rat or other type of animal.
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:13 AM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


This may wendell. We had the sweetest, gentlest, non-terrier mongrel - but the day she found the rat's nest in the compost pile was the day I first truly understood the term "red mist". We were finding rat bits spread across the garden for weeks.
posted by scruss at 11:14 AM on September 16, 2011


I don't think that your dog will really appreciate your pet rat. We have 2 dogs and a cat (55lb Lab, 35lb Beagle, 10lb Cat). Lab sniffed Cat upon introduction, and other than that igores her. Literally ignores; the Cat can be trying to play be swatting at Lab as she walks by, and Lab pretends to not notice, even when the cat jumps over her. Cat has learned to be away from Lab when Lab's excited because she dances around and will side check/step on Cat if their paths cross. There's no animosity, but Cat is invisible and does not exist in Lab's world.

Beagle and Cat mostly ignore each other, but sometimes try to play. However, Beagle tries to play like a dog does (face to the ground and butt in the air with the tail wagging wildly), while Cat tries to play like a cat does (and is very pointy). So sometimes they'll chase each other around the house (and it's mighty fun to watch Cat chase The Beag), but generally either Beagle starts snapping in the air like dogs do (and considering the way we've seen the dogs pull on each other's cheeks, I think it's good the cat doesn't stick around), which makes Cat disappear, or else The Beag bumps into her a bit too hard, and again, Cat disappears. Similarly, sometimes Cat tries to The Beag to follow her up on the chairs under the table, up the scratching post, or jumps onto the counters and seems to wonder why The Beag stopped following. Sometimes Cat starts stalking The Beag, and The Beag growls "I'll kill you if you come closer." Fortunately both Cat and the humans know that growl; Cat gives up the game, and we know it's passed The Beag's bedtime.

We've had Cat for 2 years now, and both dogs for 8+ and The Beag and Cat are spotted trying to play maybe once every week or two. Otherwise, they usually leave each other be, but not to the extant that Lab ignores Cat.

If your boxer tries to play with a rat, there's probably going to be a lot of miscommunication and not much fun. Assuming no injuries or death. As EmpressCallipygos points out above, dog's don't really have pets. The best you could hope for is for Dog to assume that the rats are puppy, and snugs up with and cleans them. Which also may mean Dog tries to liberate them while they're in their cage if dog can watch.

If you want to have rats and also have a dog, then yes, this can make sense. But if you really want the rats for your dog, I think you're going to be disappointed.
posted by nobeagle at 11:18 AM on September 16, 2011


Response by poster: Sorry to threadsit, but just want everyone to have all the info about surgery.
I'm in Atlantic Canada. I've contacted the vet school (in PEI) and they do the surgery for 5000$. I had a vet appointment this morning to talk about options, and the vet thinks I should just save for the surgery, and in the meantime keep him on glucosamine, and give him metacam on the bad days. He doesn't seem to be in a lot of pain (still eager to go for walks/run) but the vet said to restrict his exercise so that he doesn't hurt himself more.

I've had consultations with two different vets now, so I feel confident that I've explored all of the options.

Also, he won't swim. I've tried oh so many things. He got a lifejacket. He got swim dates with other pups. He got treats in the water. He hates it.

Finally, I feel insanely guilty for getting a dog without being able to support him financially throughout this medical issue. I even posted on askme before getting him to find out if there was anything I wasn't thinking of. I never thought he would need 5000$ surgery. I knew about hip dysplasia and tried to make sure I took all the precautions necessary as a puppy to avoid any future problems, but I didn't know how expensive it could really be if he got it.

Also, I've contacted an online group that helps fund surgeries. That's one way to get money. I've fundraised 200$ through a garage sale. I'm thinking of making postcards and selling them and maybe setting up some kind of online account that people could donate to. I moved in with my mom to save money. I really want to help him, the amount just seems so insurmountable right now. I can't imagine being a parent with an ill child in the states and not having health insurance! Not that this is comparable but it's made me extremely thankful for Canada's healthcare.

Anyways, extreme tangent and threadsitting. I'll stop and observe now.

Thanks for all the answers so far!
posted by whalebreath at 11:19 AM on September 16, 2011 [2 favorites]


Not a direct answer to your question, but remember that dogs don't really have the same sense of time as humans. So he may not really be pining away all those hours. You're gone 10 minutes or 10 hours - it's not really a big difference in a dog's mind.

Also, most dogs naturally tend to slow down and sleep a lot more the older they get. It doesn't necessarily mean they're lonely or understimulated.

What about setting up a spot where he can see outside (assuming there is some sort of activity outside that he could watch)? Set up a bird/squirrel feeder, or a birdbath; maybe a few avian visitors would give him something to watch?
posted by SuperSquirrel at 11:21 AM on September 16, 2011


My exgirlfriend has ferrets that get along well with her rottweiler and her pitbull mix. Maybe you could consider a ferret.
posted by oreofuchi at 11:52 AM on September 16, 2011


Also, don't forget that mice and ferrets STINK! They smell really bad. Ferrets especially.
posted by TheBones at 12:07 PM on September 16, 2011


I remember someone else posting in AskMe that they had a projector for their cat. They would project a video with a mouse on the wall for their cat to play with/stare at. I would get the cheapest of cheap projectors before getting a live rat.
posted by anaelith at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2011


Re: surgery. It is something I'd like to eventually do, but where I live it involves a trip to another province, hotels along the way, 5000$ for the surgery itself, and physiotherapy after the fact.

If you already need to travel and stay in hotels to do the surgery anyway, there's 0 reason to do it in Canada. If I were you, I'd do this in the Caribbean or in Mexico, save $4000+, and do the physical therapy at home.
posted by Ashley801 at 12:55 PM on September 16, 2011


I also think you should put an ad up on Craigslist, or a flier up in your local grocery stores and vets offices looking for doggie playdates during the day. There are so many people who have lonely dogs at home during the workdays. Some days you could drop your dog off at their house, and some days they could drop their dog off at yours.
posted by Ashley801 at 12:58 PM on September 16, 2011


If you can't afford a cat, why do you think you can afford a rat? Exotic vets (and this is a pet, so if it got sick it would go to the vet, yes?) cost MORE than regular vets that you take cats to. Decent rat food costs about the same as cat food does, and it's not available in every grocery store so you have to plan special trips to buy food. And that's even before the whole "would my dog even like the rat?" thing. Oh, and think about the rat's feelings, too. How do you think it would feel with a dog nosing around all the time?

If you can get a cat or another dog, do that.

/has owned many rodents in teh past
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:04 PM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


Are there any doggie day care places in your area? Sometimes they have a section for calmer dogs that can still play together but don't get as rowdy. Even once a week might help both of you feel better about your situation.

Or have a pet sitter come in to play with him for an hour in the middle of the day?
posted by Glinn at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2011


Exotic vets (and this is a pet, so if it got sick it would go to the vet, yes?) cost MORE than regular vets that you take cats to.

One clarification- rats and mice are not considered exotics. They are considered pocket pets just like gerbils and hamsters. Almost all RDVMs will treat rats and mice.

I will tell you from way too much experience that if you were to get 2 dogs, they would sleep the entire time you were gone, when they weren't tearing stuff up or barking, and then still be completely wound up when you got home. Then you are stuck with 2 wound up dogs instead of 1 AND more torn up furniture.

Just because you get a second pet for the first, doesn't mean that they see it that way.
posted by TheBones at 2:05 PM on September 16, 2011


Dogs do get lonely, but buying a rat is probably not going to entertain him in the way that you think.

You specifically Googled information about pet rats. If you Google "dog ratting" you will find millions of websites dedicated to the topic of dogs killing rats, which is a service they have provided for us for thousands of years.

Granted, terriers definitely have a special knack for it. But Boxers are descended from a hunting breed, which is why the AKC has put them under the "Working Dog" category.

I know this is a hard thing to hear, but you may end up having to give him up. His quality of life is poor, and will only get worse. I'm not clear from your question whether or not he is in chronic pain, or whether this pain will worsen over time without the surgery. Certainly, his life has become greatly circumscribed, because you can't afford the surgery.

This is the kind of situation that breed rescue agencies are dedicated to addressing. Alternatively, have you spoken to the vet about making a payment plan?

If he were simply disabled, I might suggest a small dog as a companion for him. But considering the core problem is that you can't afford this dog, adding a second dog seems like a terrible idea.

I know this sounds harsh, but I'm not judging you. I wouldn't be able to afford that surgery, either, and I know you're doing the absolute best you can, because you're a good person and you love him, and you want the best for him. I'm sorry you're having to grapple with this situation.
posted by ErikaB at 2:06 PM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


Some people are chastising you for not having the money/not planning ahead or telling you to give him up. I'd like to disagree with that perspective. $5k is a lot for most people, and if we limited pet owners to the kind of people that could easily pay that amount unexpectedly, there'd be even more pets wasting away in shelters. I'm not sure what giving him up would do, anyway. I doubt most people are looking for a pet that needs an expensive surgery right off the bat.

You'll save, you'll get help, and you'll find the money. In the mean time, you love him, and his quality of life is a hell of a lot better than a lot of dogs, because he does get SOME exercise and he has food and shelter and a loving mommy. It will be fine. Good luck.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 2:32 PM on September 16, 2011 [9 favorites]


One clarification- rats and mice are not considered exotics. They are considered pocket pets just like gerbils and hamsters. Almost all RDVMs will treat rats and mice.

This must vary by location, then. My dog and my "pocket pets" had different vets in Seattle because neither would treat the other, and it's the same situation here in Portland. One vet for the dog, another specialist vet for the rabbits and rodents. So at least in the Pacific Northwest, a garden-variety dog-and-cat vet won't necessarily treat a rat... and IME, of those who do, many don't have good experience with rodents and so the care would be sub-par compared to the vet care by the vets who see rats every day.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 2:33 PM on September 16, 2011


Does he have any human sounds around when he's alone chewing up the blankets? Have you tried leaving a radio or TV on so he has some noise to listen to?

About the ferret idea: some dogs don't get along with ferrets and do see them as prey; this is something of an individual thing although of course some breeds are probably more likely to be trouble. Ferrets and dogs can interact and play together, and my dog and ferrets sometimes do. However, the play may be too much for your dog's hip (check youtube videos to get an idea how it goes), and even a non-aggressive Boxer may not be a safe playmate for a ferret due to size - one foot put wrong could seriously injure the ferret.

One other problem with that idea is that ferrets are expensive to care for properly, and if you can't afford the surgery you don't want to be looking at the bill for even routine care for a ferret.

BTW, ferrets don't stink, as long as you keep their bedding and cage clean and don't bathe them.
posted by dilettante at 2:54 PM on September 16, 2011


How about fostering a cat or dog? Some rescue groups will help out with food/medical expenses for the fosters, so you wouldn't have to worry too much about additional expenses.
posted by amtho at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


Does your dog chase squirrels? Does your dog shake plush toys?

Because there are basically two possible outcomes. One -- your dog is not really interested in rats, in which case the rat won't add much stimulation to his life (unlikely). Two -- your dog is interested in rats. As prey.

We had rats during the time we owned our previous dog, a low-energy, low-prey-drive, didn't-play-with-toys beagle, and she was completely uninterested in the rat. The last of our rats passed away shortly before we got current dog: a highly energetic, chases everything, squirrel-crazy, literally shakes the stuffing out of toys dalmatian mix. And I would not trust her in a room with an uncaged rat for a second, even if she was closely monitored.
posted by drlith at 3:16 PM on September 16, 2011 [1 favorite]


Rats are not necessarily cheap to own and care for. A decent cage for two rats will cost around $100. Good food isn't cheap. There's bedding, dishes, toys and vet care. And after all of that there's a good chance that your dog will either ignore or kill them.

amtho's idea of fostering another animal is a good one.
posted by deborah at 3:52 PM on September 16, 2011


I love the concept of this but I would have to advise against it as someone who has a dog and rats. My previous dog was super mellow, had not an ounce of prey drive, would let the rats climb her etc. but seemed utterly indifferent to them. My current dog was intensely interested in them, but her intentions were not honorable, and involved drooling. This is an otherwise sweet dog, quite friendly with cats and larger animals, but small creatures just activate her hard-wired prey drive.

So to agree with drlith, in my experience dogs just don't seem to see rats as companions or fellow beings. Best case dog is probably "meh". Worst case I don't even want to think about, but we keep our dog and rats strictly separate at ALL times. It's a pity because dogs and rats are two of the most wonderful types of creatures in the world and I wish they could be friends, but better safe than sorry.
posted by spiny at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2011


Rats and other smaller rodents are prey animals. Having a large predator hanging around all day is stressful for them. You might not realise it unless you have a good understanding of rodent behaviour because they're designed to hide fear (again, due to being a small prey animal), but even if this does work out for the dog, the chances that it's at all fair or decent for the rats is low. Don't do that to an otherwise very intelligent animal.

If you want to give him something to watch all day just turn on the television or leave an interesting screen saver running on your computer. It'll do the same thing. My father-in-law's dog went crazy every time he saw a horse on television so clearly there's some recognition there.
posted by shelleycat at 1:59 AM on September 17, 2011


Rats live two years, tops. So if everything goes perfect and dog bonds with rats then you have a sad dog two years from now.
posted by mendel at 7:45 AM on September 17, 2011


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