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September 12, 2011 8:07 AM Subscribe
We had our home inspection and then a request for repairs. The seller has agreed to make the repairs. We have however come to a road block. The day of the inspection the seller was there for a few minutes and spoke with the inspector. Seller said he couldn't get the oil furnace to fire. He thought that it was simply a matter of not enough oil. He left us to our inspection. When the inspector got to the furnace he couldn't get it to fire either. He checked the oil level and said there was definitely enough for it to fire. We listed it on our repair addendum that it must be fully serviced and working prior to final walk through. Their agent has come back stating that the seller has replaced and repaired everything that can be on the furnace and it is only the lack of oil causing it to not fire. What do we do?
We can walk away. It is in our contract. We, of course, would rather not, but also do not want to be stuck with a non working furnace. Should we offer to partially have the tank filled and state in the addendum that if this does not remedy the problem the seller agrees to have the furnace repaired? We would obviously fill the tank anyway before winter so if we get the house then we wouldn't have to have it filled again right away. (Fortunately this furnace is a supplemental heating source. The primary is a new heat pump.)
On the flip side, if this does not fix it and we have to walk away because the repair will be too costly to the seller, we don't want to be out the money for the oil.
What to do? What have you done?
We can walk away. It is in our contract. We, of course, would rather not, but also do not want to be stuck with a non working furnace. Should we offer to partially have the tank filled and state in the addendum that if this does not remedy the problem the seller agrees to have the furnace repaired? We would obviously fill the tank anyway before winter so if we get the house then we wouldn't have to have it filled again right away. (Fortunately this furnace is a supplemental heating source. The primary is a new heat pump.)
On the flip side, if this does not fix it and we have to walk away because the repair will be too costly to the seller, we don't want to be out the money for the oil.
What to do? What have you done?
The tank should only need a a few gallons to be able to fire. $20 worth of oil will do it. Tell him that you want to see if fired up and running or put the value of a tank in escrow until you can add oil and see if it fires.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2011
Value of the furnace in escrow, not tank.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:11 AM on September 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:11 AM on September 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Obviously we are first time home buyers. Does that mean we deposit the cost of having it filled into our escrow account and tell them to fill it- getting their money back when we close?
posted by MayNicholas at 8:19 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by MayNicholas at 8:19 AM on September 12, 2011
I think what people are suggesting is that it would only cost the current owner a very small sum to fill it enough to have it tested. You won't get an oil truck out to your house for $20, but the seller can fill it by hand from a portable container. If they won't agree to that, suspect the furnace is bad and they're dodging, so then you ask for (from them) the value of a replacement furnace in an escrow account. The money stays there until you move in and prove the existing furnace works. If the existing furnace doesn't work, the escrowed money buys you a new furnace.
(Alternately, just hold back the furnace value from the sale price, assuming it is bad, and you put that money in escrow to pay them if, in fact, it works. It's the same game either way.)
posted by introp at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2011
(Alternately, just hold back the furnace value from the sale price, assuming it is bad, and you put that money in escrow to pay them if, in fact, it works. It's the same game either way.)
posted by introp at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2011
No, JohnnyGunn is saying that your options are to either
1) Have them add some fuel and show it running before closing, or
2) Put the replace/repair value of the furnace into escrow, which would only get released to them once you put in some oil and see the furnace working.
Additionally you should try to get a read on why they seem to be reluctant to do (1), the obvious next step. Could be they're overwhelmed by the process, could be they've been in denial about the furnace and just can't handle it, could be they know there are major repairs needed and they're not acting in good faith -- in the last scenario, which is hopefully also the least likely, you would want to be on guard against other things they might be trying to sneak past you.
posted by range at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2011
1) Have them add some fuel and show it running before closing, or
2) Put the replace/repair value of the furnace into escrow, which would only get released to them once you put in some oil and see the furnace working.
Additionally you should try to get a read on why they seem to be reluctant to do (1), the obvious next step. Could be they're overwhelmed by the process, could be they've been in denial about the furnace and just can't handle it, could be they know there are major repairs needed and they're not acting in good faith -- in the last scenario, which is hopefully also the least likely, you would want to be on guard against other things they might be trying to sneak past you.
posted by range at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2011
You generally can't get under 50 gallons of oil delivered. Add to your contract that you will purchase 50 gal. of oil, to be reimbursed if the sale fails. It will cost you @ $200. Worth it to move the sale along. Escrow is a good idea.
You might be able to get 5 gal. of oil from your existing oil tank, but it's not really kosher to handle and transport. If you do this, buy new, approved gasoline containers, and use extreme common sense. Even a small spill wreaks havoc.
At this point, the house has failed its inspection. Unless it's a gem that you absolutely must have, make sure the real estate agent and seller know you're willing to move on. It helps speed the process, and you should be willing to walk in any sale that turns out not to be right.
posted by theora55 at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
You might be able to get 5 gal. of oil from your existing oil tank, but it's not really kosher to handle and transport. If you do this, buy new, approved gasoline containers, and use extreme common sense. Even a small spill wreaks havoc.
At this point, the house has failed its inspection. Unless it's a gem that you absolutely must have, make sure the real estate agent and seller know you're willing to move on. It helps speed the process, and you should be willing to walk in any sale that turns out not to be right.
posted by theora55 at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: It IS a gem- except for this. All of the repairs are minor- and being taken care of- other than this one. But yes, we will walk if we have to. We have been delaying the FHA appraisal until all the repairs are taken care of in case we have to walk. We would hate to spend $$$ on an appraisal for a home that we may not even get.
Our agent is trying to get in touch with theirs directly (as opposed to email) to find out why they seem to be a bit stubborn about this. I do hope they aren't being shifty and already know it doesn't work.
posted by MayNicholas at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2011
Our agent is trying to get in touch with theirs directly (as opposed to email) to find out why they seem to be a bit stubborn about this. I do hope they aren't being shifty and already know it doesn't work.
posted by MayNicholas at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2011
We were in a possible rent-to-own situation last year and had 2 HVAC places come in and inspect the furnace. It was free. Not only was everything out of code, the cost was $8,000-$10,000 (oil tank, furnace, chimney liner). If it's working so great, why can't they get an HVAC guy in there to prove it to you?
At this point, I'd be leery of just taking someone's word for it. Kind of like, "this car runs great, I promise! It's just out of gas."
Also, I'd be demanding the seller throw in a Home Warranty Insurance plan, but only after the furnace thing is cleared up.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:18 AM on September 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
At this point, I'd be leery of just taking someone's word for it. Kind of like, "this car runs great, I promise! It's just out of gas."
Also, I'd be demanding the seller throw in a Home Warranty Insurance plan, but only after the furnace thing is cleared up.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:18 AM on September 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
I do hope they aren't being shifty and already know it doesn't work.
MayNicholas, there's no way to determine this except by calling their bluff on the furnace. Either it will light with oil, or it won't. If it will, and they believe it, they should be willing to escrow the cost of the furnace.
I do not share range's optimism about the likelihood of their honesty. People get very desperate and selfish at house sales, and their worst sides come out - this is, IMO, part of why realtors are useful, because they act as rational, unemotional go-betweens.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2011
MayNicholas, there's no way to determine this except by calling their bluff on the furnace. Either it will light with oil, or it won't. If it will, and they believe it, they should be willing to escrow the cost of the furnace.
I do not share range's optimism about the likelihood of their honesty. People get very desperate and selfish at house sales, and their worst sides come out - this is, IMO, part of why realtors are useful, because they act as rational, unemotional go-betweens.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2011
Response by poster: We do have them paying for a home warranty plan. I just can't understand why they wouldn't throw in a few gallon of oil to prove it is working.
posted by MayNicholas at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by MayNicholas at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2011
Our inspector recommended having a separate HVAC company come out and inspect our heater. We did this and ate the $200 bucks it cost us its in our own self interest, theoretically we could maybe get that money back but really its not a huge expense and we were more then happy to eat it. I'd recommend the same so you can have some evidence of what is wrong (or not wrong). If there are repairs to be made then you can negotiate on those issues.
If the seller is convinced nothing is wrong then they should have no issue signing an explicit addendum to the contract stipulating that the furnace must be fired and working prior to final close. If they're not willing to sign anything then they're trying to hide something.
posted by bitdamaged at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2011
If the seller is convinced nothing is wrong then they should have no issue signing an explicit addendum to the contract stipulating that the furnace must be fired and working prior to final close. If they're not willing to sign anything then they're trying to hide something.
posted by bitdamaged at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2011
They're using your uncertainty and anxiety against you. All you need to do here is stand your ground. Make it unmistakably clear that the 'not enough oil' explanation isn't going to fly, no matter how much the seller or his agent would like it to fly, no matter how much they'd like to be done with the house and move on to whatever's next for them. Ignore all speculation as to why the furnace doesn't work. Calmly and firmly insist on proof that the furnace does work.
posted by jon1270 at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by jon1270 at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2011
Response by poster: When I heard back from our realtor I will bring up these points and get her thoughts. This is so stressful! Thank you for the responses so far.
How much would we even ask them to put in escrow for a furnace? Is this a common practice? Would it be better to ask for a written statement from an licensed HVAC technician?
posted by MayNicholas at 9:40 AM on September 12, 2011
How much would we even ask them to put in escrow for a furnace? Is this a common practice? Would it be better to ask for a written statement from an licensed HVAC technician?
posted by MayNicholas at 9:40 AM on September 12, 2011
You would get a quote for a new furnace (including installation) by... having a licensed HVAC technician visit the house! So, unless you can dump some oil in the tank and fire it right up (very unlikely from what you've written here), you need a tech to come out. He'll take a look, diagnose, tell you whether it's fixable. If it's not fixable or not worth fixing, he'll probably be prepared to price a new unit.
This is far simpler than you seem to realize. The licensed furnace guy has to come out. The End.
In this market, the best way to fix the furnace may be to start looking at other houses.
posted by jon1270 at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2011
This is far simpler than you seem to realize. The licensed furnace guy has to come out. The End.
In this market, the best way to fix the furnace may be to start looking at other houses.
posted by jon1270 at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2011
I don't even think you should get to a point where you're asking for the cost of a new furnace to be put into Escrow:
Your RE to their RE: "Here's 20$, go get some oil and we'll be at the house tomorrow at noon to watch the furnace fire up. If it fires we're good to go, if it doesn't then we'll need to get an estimate on replacing it. Thanks for being understanding about this, a furnace is a very important part of the house and we want to be sure it's working properly".
If they stall at all then you should tell them what you really think: "I believe the owner is bluffing and that the furnace does not work, this should either prove or disprove that. Thanks"
posted by zombieApoc at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Your RE to their RE: "Here's 20$, go get some oil and we'll be at the house tomorrow at noon to watch the furnace fire up. If it fires we're good to go, if it doesn't then we'll need to get an estimate on replacing it. Thanks for being understanding about this, a furnace is a very important part of the house and we want to be sure it's working properly".
If they stall at all then you should tell them what you really think: "I believe the owner is bluffing and that the furnace does not work, this should either prove or disprove that. Thanks"
posted by zombieApoc at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
What jon1270 said.
Even if they did let the tank run dry, you would still need an HVAC guy to come out and bleed the line to get it to fire up (after some oil got put in the tank!). While he's there, you could get the inspection done at the same time.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:56 AM on September 12, 2011
Even if they did let the tank run dry, you would still need an HVAC guy to come out and bleed the line to get it to fire up (after some oil got put in the tank!). While he's there, you could get the inspection done at the same time.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:56 AM on September 12, 2011
Take SpecialK's advice, but with one key difference: Don't just demand that any licensed HVAC specialist sign off on the working boiler/furnace--choose the HVAC specialist yourself so that the person is completely neutral. The sellers should not be able to choose the person inspecting their home.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:56 AM on September 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by yellowcandy at 9:56 AM on September 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Speaking from financially painful experience, get multiple HVAC assessments.
posted by thomas j wise at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by thomas j wise at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2011
Response by poster: What do you mean by multiple assessments? Have multiple companies come out?
This will really suck to come all this way and lose it over the furnace. I realize that it is a biggie. But it will suck nonetheless.
posted by MayNicholas at 10:15 AM on September 12, 2011
This will really suck to come all this way and lose it over the furnace. I realize that it is a biggie. But it will suck nonetheless.
posted by MayNicholas at 10:15 AM on September 12, 2011
This will really suck to come all this way and lose it over the furnace.
NoNoNoNoNo. Will? I think you mean "would." And it would suck. But not as much as it would suck for the seller to lose a buyer. Neither would the seller's agent be thrilled to lose his commission over this. Nobody wants the deal to fall through.
You are, however involuntarily, in a game of chicken. Play.
posted by jon1270 at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2011
NoNoNoNoNo. Will? I think you mean "would." And it would suck. But not as much as it would suck for the seller to lose a buyer. Neither would the seller's agent be thrilled to lose his commission over this. Nobody wants the deal to fall through.
You are, however involuntarily, in a game of chicken. Play.
posted by jon1270 at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2011
Think about it this way. Come wintertime, you'll be living in your lovely brand new home and will probably need the furnace guy to come out and do an inspection/cleaning/maintenance. You're spending that money anyway, so spend it now and make sure the furnace is ship shape before you buy it and the house its attached to.
posted by zachlipton at 10:35 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by zachlipton at 10:35 AM on September 12, 2011
Just a note, at this point I'm not sure I'd be content just watching the furnace fire. If it was easy it would be done by now. Hire an HVAC tech out to the house and inspect everything.
posted by bitdamaged at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by bitdamaged at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2011
We once had an oil furnace that wouldn't light; the igniter was dirty and clogged. Happens pretty regularly as they get sooty during use, and they should be cleaned yearly to avoid this. We learned this after having an HVAC guy come take a look at it. If it hasn't been checked yet, check it. They might be telling the truth - the furnace itself works - but they may be mistaken about the reason it isn't lighting right now.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2011
posted by caution live frogs at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2011
When I bought my house they estimated the amount of oil left in the tank and the price of oil was added to the closing costs. There should be no problem even if the current owners had the tan filled. ( Which by the way would be cheaper for you now than in the winter). Have the realtor do this, afterall he/she won't get any commission if the sale falls through.
posted by Gungho at 12:11 PM on September 12, 2011
posted by Gungho at 12:11 PM on September 12, 2011
Response by poster: Just got in touch with our realtor. She finally spoke to their realtor on the phone. The sellers will be making sure that furnace is fully serviced and functional at our final walk through and will be present at that time to show us how to operate it.
I don't know where the confusion was.
Too many cook in the kitchen?
posted by MayNicholas at 1:23 PM on September 12, 2011
I don't know where the confusion was.
Too many cook in the kitchen?
posted by MayNicholas at 1:23 PM on September 12, 2011
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posted by SpecialK at 8:09 AM on September 12, 2011 [7 favorites]