How to Cope with Overtly Bigoted Comment at Dinner Party?
September 1, 2011 11:47 AM Subscribe
How to Cope with Overtly Bigoted Comment at Dinner Party?
I'm always confused by these situations and would appreciate feedback. Guy I don't know very well invites me over to dinner with couple I do know and his coworker from work.
The coworker from work makes an overtly antisemitic comment, and I'm jewish (I know people cry wolf with this, so as background the comment was something like "my mother is a superintendent and she spends so much of her time fielding special requests from Jews--I'm worried that if jewish politician x gets elected, there's going to be a lot of that crap going on at a larger scale" Anyone NOT think that qualifies?)
I call couple I know afterward, they agree comment was outrageous. Never hear from host.
So.... should I have said something, like "I find what you said ridiculous" Or.... is it sort of up to a considerate host to say something (draw person aside, whatever), and if they don't, should I assume this isn't a person I want to get to know better (and perhaps make an excuse and leave dinner party?). (If I was the host, I'd at least email other guests and explain bigoted person is actually really nice, but comes from narrow background...whatever.)
Or... is this really only about the person who made the comment, so just let it go and forget about it (and know I have no interest in getting to know the bigoted coworker).
Any non-crazy comments appreciated...
I'm always confused by these situations and would appreciate feedback. Guy I don't know very well invites me over to dinner with couple I do know and his coworker from work.
The coworker from work makes an overtly antisemitic comment, and I'm jewish (I know people cry wolf with this, so as background the comment was something like "my mother is a superintendent and she spends so much of her time fielding special requests from Jews--I'm worried that if jewish politician x gets elected, there's going to be a lot of that crap going on at a larger scale" Anyone NOT think that qualifies?)
I call couple I know afterward, they agree comment was outrageous. Never hear from host.
So.... should I have said something, like "I find what you said ridiculous" Or.... is it sort of up to a considerate host to say something (draw person aside, whatever), and if they don't, should I assume this isn't a person I want to get to know better (and perhaps make an excuse and leave dinner party?). (If I was the host, I'd at least email other guests and explain bigoted person is actually really nice, but comes from narrow background...whatever.)
Or... is this really only about the person who made the comment, so just let it go and forget about it (and know I have no interest in getting to know the bigoted coworker).
Any non-crazy comments appreciated...
The host should have said something, but that can be chalked up to a lot of things like social awkwardness or timidness, rather than that he actually agreed with what the person said.
You'll probably have to suss that out from further talking to the person, but I guess it's up to you whether it's worth the effort.
posted by empath at 11:52 AM on September 1, 2011
You'll probably have to suss that out from further talking to the person, but I guess it's up to you whether it's worth the effort.
posted by empath at 11:52 AM on September 1, 2011
I remember being at a birthday party of a friend who invited a bunch of conservatory professors and attachments and a bunch of other students and friends, among whom a gay couple. One professor begins making loud anti-gay comments - luckily the party was big enough to provide some cushionage to prevent a true confrontation, but it was a very upsetting moment.
My friend discussed the whole thing with me afterwards and was seriously at a loss about what he could have done then and there, while being very upset about the whole thing. Too late...
So: I guess it's mostly about the person who's being a jerk. Hosts have little or no control over what's going to be said. Hosts are also not always at their best when it comes to solving it then and there; I mean, you plan having a nice evening, and all of a sudden you've got to deal with a stink, so you try finding ways out of it, or you try to ignore what's going on as best as possible. It ain't nice, but that's, more or less, the mechanism.
If I were you, I'd mention the situation to the host of the party, so he knows that and why you weren't charmed by coworker's input, and I'd avoid attending social meetings together with that jerk in the future.
posted by Namlit at 12:02 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
My friend discussed the whole thing with me afterwards and was seriously at a loss about what he could have done then and there, while being very upset about the whole thing. Too late...
So: I guess it's mostly about the person who's being a jerk. Hosts have little or no control over what's going to be said. Hosts are also not always at their best when it comes to solving it then and there; I mean, you plan having a nice evening, and all of a sudden you've got to deal with a stink, so you try finding ways out of it, or you try to ignore what's going on as best as possible. It ain't nice, but that's, more or less, the mechanism.
If I were you, I'd mention the situation to the host of the party, so he knows that and why you weren't charmed by coworker's input, and I'd avoid attending social meetings together with that jerk in the future.
posted by Namlit at 12:02 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Call him on it if there is a next time. Something to the effect of, "I'm Jewish and I don't appreciate that comment and I would appreciate your keeping such comments to yourself when you're around me". Also - the guy is never going to change so avoid him in the future when you can. And watch your back at work.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 12:03 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Poet_Lariat at 12:03 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm a believer in choosing your battles, but this is one battle I *always* choose when someone talks stupid smack in front of me, whether about my own minority group or not. Never make it about you being personally offended; ANYONE, targeted group or not, could and should be offended by hateful speech. Ask neutral questions intended to make the bigot explain his or herself: "What kind of larger scale crap do you mean?" "What does that have to do with Jewish Politician"? "Why would you think that?"
Best outcome: Bigot starts to answer, realizes he's full of shit or had a drink too many, and shuts up. Maybe apologizes. No one feels too embarrassed.
Viscerally satisfying but awkward outcome: Bigot sputters and digs himself into a rhetorical hole whence he cannot emerge. Things are pretty awkward, though.
Acceptable outcome for everyone: Things are silent and tense for a minute, everyone moves on. You've made your point.
Bad outcome for everyone: You get drawn into an argument. This is as rude as the original comment. Don't let this happen; if it seems like this might happen, excuse yourself, saying you're not interested in arguing, and leave (the room or the party entirely). No one will think you've "lost."
All this is possibly irritating to the host/other guests, but like you, my preferred solution would be for a host to speak up and tell the bigot, privately or not, to STFU. If that doesn't happen, I think it's entirely fine for you to speak up and defend your right to feel comfortable/safe in a given social situation.
Modify this as necessary for variables like family, bosses, old friends, new friends, etc.
For now, forget about this one instance. If Host invites you to something again, you can ask if Bigot will be there. If he will be, decline. No need to say why.
posted by peachfuzz at 12:04 PM on September 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
Best outcome: Bigot starts to answer, realizes he's full of shit or had a drink too many, and shuts up. Maybe apologizes. No one feels too embarrassed.
Viscerally satisfying but awkward outcome: Bigot sputters and digs himself into a rhetorical hole whence he cannot emerge. Things are pretty awkward, though.
Acceptable outcome for everyone: Things are silent and tense for a minute, everyone moves on. You've made your point.
Bad outcome for everyone: You get drawn into an argument. This is as rude as the original comment. Don't let this happen; if it seems like this might happen, excuse yourself, saying you're not interested in arguing, and leave (the room or the party entirely). No one will think you've "lost."
All this is possibly irritating to the host/other guests, but like you, my preferred solution would be for a host to speak up and tell the bigot, privately or not, to STFU. If that doesn't happen, I think it's entirely fine for you to speak up and defend your right to feel comfortable/safe in a given social situation.
Modify this as necessary for variables like family, bosses, old friends, new friends, etc.
For now, forget about this one instance. If Host invites you to something again, you can ask if Bigot will be there. If he will be, decline. No need to say why.
posted by peachfuzz at 12:04 PM on September 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
I hate to say this, but decorum is usually invoked by the one left offended. Asking the host to properly raise a flag against the behavior in the future is a good start. A better one is to be proactive and directly challenge the comment with seasoned reason as it is happening.
You had the perfect opportunity to call out antisemitism, reset the conversation and force the idiot that made the comment bear the brunt of stupidity within a social setting.
This doesn't negate the impact of the comment made or remove your feelings the host should have done something. I happen to agree the host should have intervened and discharged the situation. However in real life, that is a wild card dependent on much more than good manners.
posted by Funmonkey1 at 12:05 PM on September 1, 2011
You had the perfect opportunity to call out antisemitism, reset the conversation and force the idiot that made the comment bear the brunt of stupidity within a social setting.
This doesn't negate the impact of the comment made or remove your feelings the host should have done something. I happen to agree the host should have intervened and discharged the situation. However in real life, that is a wild card dependent on much more than good manners.
posted by Funmonkey1 at 12:05 PM on September 1, 2011
Last time something similar happened to me I said, "I know what you mean. And hey, did you read about how tall people get the best jobs with the highest salaries? There was this study done recently, did you see it? I've certainly noticed it. Fucking tall people; how annoying are they?"
I don't like letting shit like that pass by unchallenged, even at a social occasion, but I usually at least make a cursory nod towards humour. Not that everyone finds my sort of humour funny, but there it is.
posted by Decani at 12:06 PM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
I don't like letting shit like that pass by unchallenged, even at a social occasion, but I usually at least make a cursory nod towards humour. Not that everyone finds my sort of humour funny, but there it is.
posted by Decani at 12:06 PM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
On posting, I realize that I sound pretty hard-line about this stuff, and willing to sacrifice other people's comfort to "correct" a wrong. I modulate my response in scenarios where it's truly inappropriate, disrespectful to others, or would just draw more attention...but ultimately, I guess am willing to in some situations. That's maybe not so awesome. Note to MeFites: Don't invite me to your parties.
This kind of thing really bothers me, though—it's tacit, polite acceptance that lets ugly attitudes linger long after they should have been rooted out.
posted by peachfuzz at 12:10 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
This kind of thing really bothers me, though—it's tacit, polite acceptance that lets ugly attitudes linger long after they should have been rooted out.
posted by peachfuzz at 12:10 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's often hard to think of a good response right then and there, so you're stuck with what-do-they-call-it?--a French phrase for thinking of what you should have said on the staircase on the way home?
I've recently fallen back on, "You're not serious about that, are you?" At least it gets your objection on the record, which I've come to think is mandatory for reasons of self-respect, and places the burden of explanation where it belongs: on the offender. A canned response is better than none.
posted by fivesavagepalms at 12:11 PM on September 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
I've recently fallen back on, "You're not serious about that, are you?" At least it gets your objection on the record, which I've come to think is mandatory for reasons of self-respect, and places the burden of explanation where it belongs: on the offender. A canned response is better than none.
posted by fivesavagepalms at 12:11 PM on September 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
Two points from my own professional experience:
1. Sabbath-observing Jews do require a degree of accommodation. It's likely his mother has to rearrange a small group of students' schedules so that they can get home before sundown on Fridays, excuse them from events on Saturdays, give them days off for holidays the rest of the school doesn't observe, etc. Dealing with that probably is time consuming.
2. Many people don't understand accommodations and look at them as how the school/country has gone soft. Students with learning disabilities will be given extra time for testing, or distraction-reduced rooms, which requires allocating resources (finding a room that's free long enough, arranging for proctors and paying them extra, etc.). People who haven't worked with students with disabilities think they're just getting away with things and getting free time on their exams. Students with allergies could literally die if they're given the wrong food, but people who haven't seen the severity of things like peanut allergies just feel like we're making too big a deal out of it. Likewise, for religious accommodations (and please forgive me if it sounds like I'm directly comparing a handicap with being part of a religion!), it's viewed as them getting a weekend off when everyone else has to fulfill their responsibilities.
So, I can see the perspective your friend/his mom is coming from. It's easy to get annoyed that you have to keep constantly making special arrangements for a certain population and to lose perspective on why it's important.
posted by davextreme at 12:15 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
1. Sabbath-observing Jews do require a degree of accommodation. It's likely his mother has to rearrange a small group of students' schedules so that they can get home before sundown on Fridays, excuse them from events on Saturdays, give them days off for holidays the rest of the school doesn't observe, etc. Dealing with that probably is time consuming.
2. Many people don't understand accommodations and look at them as how the school/country has gone soft. Students with learning disabilities will be given extra time for testing, or distraction-reduced rooms, which requires allocating resources (finding a room that's free long enough, arranging for proctors and paying them extra, etc.). People who haven't worked with students with disabilities think they're just getting away with things and getting free time on their exams. Students with allergies could literally die if they're given the wrong food, but people who haven't seen the severity of things like peanut allergies just feel like we're making too big a deal out of it. Likewise, for religious accommodations (and please forgive me if it sounds like I'm directly comparing a handicap with being part of a religion!), it's viewed as them getting a weekend off when everyone else has to fulfill their responsibilities.
So, I can see the perspective your friend/his mom is coming from. It's easy to get annoyed that you have to keep constantly making special arrangements for a certain population and to lose perspective on why it's important.
posted by davextreme at 12:15 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you can't think of a witty response on the spot or you just don't want to get involved (a pretty normal and ok response imho): Frown Power
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:18 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:18 PM on September 1, 2011
If I were the host I don't think I would apologize. Better to let an incident like that slide by as a moment of awkwardness.
However, that person would not be invited to future dinner parties, particularly if one of the other guests felt it was important enough to bring up the incident later.
Simply put, as a host I don't feel it is my responsibility to control my guests or apologize for them but rather to not invite people who are likely to be a problem.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:25 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
However, that person would not be invited to future dinner parties, particularly if one of the other guests felt it was important enough to bring up the incident later.
Simply put, as a host I don't feel it is my responsibility to control my guests or apologize for them but rather to not invite people who are likely to be a problem.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:25 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Some (helpful) responses have clarified why this situation sticks with me... "I don't like letting shit like that pass by unchallenged" is exactly how I feel, and I guess I'm trying to guage how to assert oneself without also becoming a belligerent jerk.
To add more background. The host, who I don't know very well, was organizing a hiking trip--the coworker was there cause she's from the area where we were supposed to go hiking. I already had doubts about the host (pedantic guy, for one). One Option that occurred to me (besides the "fucking tall people" comment--I love that one) may have been to call couple I knew and say something like "I don't really know [host] very well and his choice of friends makes me uncomfortable. Do you think we'll get a long on a trip" Or... am I crossing the line into jerkdom with that?
posted by Jon44 at 12:28 PM on September 1, 2011
To add more background. The host, who I don't know very well, was organizing a hiking trip--the coworker was there cause she's from the area where we were supposed to go hiking. I already had doubts about the host (pedantic guy, for one). One Option that occurred to me (besides the "fucking tall people" comment--I love that one) may have been to call couple I knew and say something like "I don't really know [host] very well and his choice of friends makes me uncomfortable. Do you think we'll get a long on a trip" Or... am I crossing the line into jerkdom with that?
posted by Jon44 at 12:28 PM on September 1, 2011
Response by poster: P.s., as an all-purpose, pre-planned response to crap, I'm curious what others think of:
"You aren't being serious are you? Wow!"
posted by Jon44 at 12:31 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
"You aren't being serious are you? Wow!"
posted by Jon44 at 12:31 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Remember to have the "what they did" conversation, not the "who they are" conversation.
posted by quiet coyote at 12:33 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by quiet coyote at 12:33 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
"You aren't being serious are you? Wow!"
That is a shaming comment and seems likely to start a fight.
I usually disarm these situations by taking the outrageous statement and making one even more outrageous. "Just think though, if we elect a Jew she'll fight for the bagel subsidies this country so desperately needs." This allows a person who just Opened Their Big Fat Mouth to slide past their faux pas and rejoin the conversation.
If the person returns to bigotry as a conversational gambit then taking stronger measures is called for, but giving someone a chance to smooth over a blurted out statement would be more gracious.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:46 PM on September 1, 2011
That is a shaming comment and seems likely to start a fight.
I usually disarm these situations by taking the outrageous statement and making one even more outrageous. "Just think though, if we elect a Jew she'll fight for the bagel subsidies this country so desperately needs." This allows a person who just Opened Their Big Fat Mouth to slide past their faux pas and rejoin the conversation.
If the person returns to bigotry as a conversational gambit then taking stronger measures is called for, but giving someone a chance to smooth over a blurted out statement would be more gracious.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:46 PM on September 1, 2011
I like making people squirm. At a party or in polite company I'll hand them rope to hang themselves or say something *them* uncomfortable. Strong agreement is my default. "Dude, I'm there with you. I don't know the best way to deal with Jews is. You seem like you've thought about this a lot. What do we do? Offer to fly them home to Israel? Fence them in to their own part of town? People have been trying to deal with this for a couple thousand years!"
Of course, maybe he's not a bad guy and is seeing something that's there and just doesn't have the context to understand it. Heck, Jews probably *are* more comfortable asking for exceptions to rules than most people. It's definitely less of a "THOU SHALT NOT!" religion and more of a "Hey, how about this! I read the text really closely, and I think if we put a string around the village that fulfills the requirement for shared living space...." one. Not sure how that's a bad thing in elected officials. :)
posted by pjaust at 12:51 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Of course, maybe he's not a bad guy and is seeing something that's there and just doesn't have the context to understand it. Heck, Jews probably *are* more comfortable asking for exceptions to rules than most people. It's definitely less of a "THOU SHALT NOT!" religion and more of a "Hey, how about this! I read the text really closely, and I think if we put a string around the village that fulfills the requirement for shared living space...." one. Not sure how that's a bad thing in elected officials. :)
posted by pjaust at 12:51 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
"That's a very odd comment, and not consistent with my experience as a Jew. I wonder of you could explain what you mean."
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:54 PM on September 1, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:54 PM on September 1, 2011 [13 favorites]
I found your question extremely confusing, but:
1. Nothing you do now will have the effect of something you might have done in real time.
2. It's presumptuous to tell the host how to deal with others, especially since you don't have any basis for concluding that he didn't already address it.
3. Going forward, I would be wary of consorting with the offending speaker. I can't see how that's a live issue, if I understand what you have said. I would be a little warier of the host, but not leap to conclusions.
4. If confronted with this again, I would say something like: "If I heard anyone else say something like that, I'd say they were stereotyping." There is a good video on calling people out on racism that may contradict what I just said -- I only recall it distantly.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 12:57 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
1. Nothing you do now will have the effect of something you might have done in real time.
2. It's presumptuous to tell the host how to deal with others, especially since you don't have any basis for concluding that he didn't already address it.
3. Going forward, I would be wary of consorting with the offending speaker. I can't see how that's a live issue, if I understand what you have said. I would be a little warier of the host, but not leap to conclusions.
4. If confronted with this again, I would say something like: "If I heard anyone else say something like that, I'd say they were stereotyping." There is a good video on calling people out on racism that may contradict what I just said -- I only recall it distantly.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 12:57 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think an appropriate response would have been 'Hm! I'll have to ask my Rabbi whether she thinks we complain too much.'
I believe the host's responsibility to his guests precluded all but the mildest responses from him, unfortunately, but I would never invite that person to my home again under any circumstances.
posted by jamjam at 12:58 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
I believe the host's responsibility to his guests precluded all but the mildest responses from him, unfortunately, but I would never invite that person to my home again under any circumstances.
posted by jamjam at 12:58 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: @ Tell Me No Lies
I guess I disagree with your "let it slide" attitude. I agree with "Peachfuzz's" comment: "... it's tacit, polite acceptance that lets ugly attitudes linger long after they should have been rooted out." As someone who is really turned off by politically correct groupthink, I also think it's important to ackowledge the positive side of political correctness--i.e., not tolerating intolerant public speech.
And, btw, I'd also acknowledge that it's part of jewish culture to have "chutzpah;" and religiously observant jews may, in fact, ask for disporportionately large amount of special accomodations. But to give this as a reason why a particular politician shouldn't be elected clearly elevates it to "worldwide zionist conspiracy" territory...
posted by Jon44 at 1:00 PM on September 1, 2011
I guess I disagree with your "let it slide" attitude. I agree with "Peachfuzz's" comment: "... it's tacit, polite acceptance that lets ugly attitudes linger long after they should have been rooted out." As someone who is really turned off by politically correct groupthink, I also think it's important to ackowledge the positive side of political correctness--i.e., not tolerating intolerant public speech.
And, btw, I'd also acknowledge that it's part of jewish culture to have "chutzpah;" and religiously observant jews may, in fact, ask for disporportionately large amount of special accomodations. But to give this as a reason why a particular politician shouldn't be elected clearly elevates it to "worldwide zionist conspiracy" territory...
posted by Jon44 at 1:00 PM on September 1, 2011
If you don't want to call him out in a way that shows how angry you are, you could politely say something more like
"I would advise you to reconsider voicing an opinion like that in public... unless you're not at all concerned with offending someone."
It's technically more advice than telling-off, so you don't seem too incensed/self-righteous, and you still get your point across that he was being offensive and that it would serve him well not to do it again in the future (this is for his own sake, too).
His prejudiced point of view already rattled you. Thankfully, you were able to handle it without causing a scene. The next person to hear it might not be able to. The object at this point has become to prevent it from happening again. And I would imagine that framing it more as cautionary recommendation rather than a scolding would be the more effective way to get through to this guy.
Also, I agree that it was the host's responsibility to respond to the offensive comment.
posted by desertface at 1:03 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
"I would advise you to reconsider voicing an opinion like that in public... unless you're not at all concerned with offending someone."
It's technically more advice than telling-off, so you don't seem too incensed/self-righteous, and you still get your point across that he was being offensive and that it would serve him well not to do it again in the future (this is for his own sake, too).
His prejudiced point of view already rattled you. Thankfully, you were able to handle it without causing a scene. The next person to hear it might not be able to. The object at this point has become to prevent it from happening again. And I would imagine that framing it more as cautionary recommendation rather than a scolding would be the more effective way to get through to this guy.
Also, I agree that it was the host's responsibility to respond to the offensive comment.
posted by desertface at 1:03 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
My aunt made a similarly stupid remark at a family gathering years ago when my wife and I were newly-weds. In fact, I think this was the first time the family had met her in person. Without missing a beat, Mrs. txmon looked my aunt directly in the eye and said quietly, "I'm Jewish." Funny how a quiet comment can resonate through a room. There was a moment of clearly embarrassed silence, then resumption of our normal family fun. My aunt and wife became very cordial and remained so for the rest of my aunt's life. We never heard another bigoted comment from here again. The best part....Mrs. txmon is not Jewish (and neither am I).
posted by txmon at 1:34 PM on September 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by txmon at 1:34 PM on September 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
I guess I disagree with your "let it slide" attitude.
To be clear, my attitude is to let it slide once.
People say stupid things occasionally. I prefer graciousness over stridently making my point at the cost of an already embarrassed person.
As I said above if it becomes clear that it they don't consider it an embarrassing gaffe then stronger actions are called for.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:09 PM on September 1, 2011
To be clear, my attitude is to let it slide once.
People say stupid things occasionally. I prefer graciousness over stridently making my point at the cost of an already embarrassed person.
As I said above if it becomes clear that it they don't consider it an embarrassing gaffe then stronger actions are called for.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:09 PM on September 1, 2011
Overtly expressed xenophobia is one of the few issues which definitely trumps your duty as a gracious host/guest. Theoretically. In practice, as with the other potential trumpers such as repeatedly and intentionally offending the host/other guests, etc, a lot of people probably find themselves slow to even process what exactly is happening, and then admitting it to themselves, never mind knowing how to best react under the circumstances. I've seen a lot of people who were militant for x, y and z issue permitting trespasses against those very issues in their own home, for as long as they had their "host" or "guest" glasses on. Or trying to be conciliatory for much longer than they normally would. Or gloss over the offending behaviour, let it slide etc. This much about your host person.
With regard to the upcoming trip which occasioned the get-together - it sounds like you have reservations about the host anyway, who is one of the participants (he is a pedant). Depending on how cool you are in situations like that, I'd seriously rethink going - back-packing can be really trying and testing of your temper anyway, never mind if you already are unenchanted with one of the small group going. Unless you really want to/have to go, and the host-guy can not be shaken off, could you not just give this one a miss? Regardless of whether the guy is in fact outraged by his guests behaviour, and/or would have admonished him under normal circumstances, or otherwise expressed his disagreement, if you cannot know his stance on this issue before the trip, you'll probably be tense around him throughout. What's the point in that? You probably go to relax, reset your stress-levels, etc, not to have such issues in the foreground of your mind.
posted by miorita at 2:39 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
With regard to the upcoming trip which occasioned the get-together - it sounds like you have reservations about the host anyway, who is one of the participants (he is a pedant). Depending on how cool you are in situations like that, I'd seriously rethink going - back-packing can be really trying and testing of your temper anyway, never mind if you already are unenchanted with one of the small group going. Unless you really want to/have to go, and the host-guy can not be shaken off, could you not just give this one a miss? Regardless of whether the guy is in fact outraged by his guests behaviour, and/or would have admonished him under normal circumstances, or otherwise expressed his disagreement, if you cannot know his stance on this issue before the trip, you'll probably be tense around him throughout. What's the point in that? You probably go to relax, reset your stress-levels, etc, not to have such issues in the foreground of your mind.
posted by miorita at 2:39 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oops, I see you were responding to my first comment. I thought you were talking about my second. Sorry.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:42 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:42 PM on September 1, 2011
"That's a very odd comment, and not consistent with my experience as a Jew. I wonder if you could explain what you mean."
I like this, except I personally would not identify myself as a Jew in that scenario. I'd make a similar comment if the bigoted comment was in reference to gays, non-whites, or any other group of people of which I myself am not necessarily a part. It's even more important, and IMO has more impact, if people give a challenging though non-aggressive response to bigotry while NOT making it seem as though the only reason they are offended is because THEY are a member of the group in question.
I work in a blue-collar field, and while the majority of co-workers are lovely and open-minded people, I've had occasion to deal with comments that display some ignorance/insensitivity to various groups. I challenge it gently whether or not I am one of "those" people.
posted by RRgal at 2:51 PM on September 1, 2011
The age-old-tested MetaFilter "Oh, so why do you think that?" which forces the bigot to explain his/her attitude usually works pretty well in allowing bigot to demonstrate his/her own stupidity.
I'd have gone with this, and added, after stringing it out as long as possible, a casual "Well, I'm Jewish and..." comment. I think people say shit like this because they think there are no Jews in the room. They think they'd see your horns or whatever. I like to let them know (if I don't feel like I'm in any actual danger) that there are, in fact, Jews in the room.
As for future activites, I think I'd just not go. I'd tell whoever's organizing that I don't want to hang out with bigots. Not in a fighty way, just in an honest way. Maybe that's not the "right" thing to do, but that's what I'd probably do. In the same way I would choose not to hang out with loud, mean drunks or something. It's not that big of a deal, it's just not enjoyable.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 2:52 PM on September 1, 2011
I'd have gone with this, and added, after stringing it out as long as possible, a casual "Well, I'm Jewish and..." comment. I think people say shit like this because they think there are no Jews in the room. They think they'd see your horns or whatever. I like to let them know (if I don't feel like I'm in any actual danger) that there are, in fact, Jews in the room.
As for future activites, I think I'd just not go. I'd tell whoever's organizing that I don't want to hang out with bigots. Not in a fighty way, just in an honest way. Maybe that's not the "right" thing to do, but that's what I'd probably do. In the same way I would choose not to hang out with loud, mean drunks or something. It's not that big of a deal, it's just not enjoyable.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 2:52 PM on September 1, 2011
I think "Are you serious?" is a perfectly fine response, though I wouldn't add the "Wow." I've certainly used the variant "You're joking, right?"
It registers your discomfort with the statement openly, which others have said is valuable in and of itself. The offender, unless he is a boor as well as a bigot (and, perplexingly, the two don't always go together), will pick up on that and likely refrain from making further comments, for the evening at least, to avoid a scene. At best, he may even twig to the way that his statement sounded and backpedal a little to save face.
Of course, you have to decide how to proceed if he sticks to his guns and makes a scene anyway. The graceful thing to do is simply say "I fear our views of the world may differ so wildly that there's no point discussing this" and then change topics.
That's not a course of action I generally manage to take though. In fact (though I am not particularly proud to admit it) I have been guilty of escalating these situations to physical confrontations in the past. Let me tell you from experience, it can be satisfying, but it is extremely counterproductive.
My belief these days is that the best compromise between civility and confrontation is to say something like "Perhaps I misunderstood the sort of gathering we were having here. If this is meant to be the sort of place where it's kosher to rail against the grand Zionist conspiracy, then I had best leave. If not, perhaps you should." At which point you may have to look pointedly at the host. There's a good chance you won't be invited back though, even if the host agrees with you ideologically.
As for your original question about what to do now: I'd say gently bring it up with the host, perhaps by e-mail. Ask if that guy regularly makes that sort of ridiculous comment. If nothing else, this will give you a chance to feel out where the host stand on all this and you can re-evaluate whether you want anything to do with him either.
posted by 256 at 2:58 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
It registers your discomfort with the statement openly, which others have said is valuable in and of itself. The offender, unless he is a boor as well as a bigot (and, perplexingly, the two don't always go together), will pick up on that and likely refrain from making further comments, for the evening at least, to avoid a scene. At best, he may even twig to the way that his statement sounded and backpedal a little to save face.
Of course, you have to decide how to proceed if he sticks to his guns and makes a scene anyway. The graceful thing to do is simply say "I fear our views of the world may differ so wildly that there's no point discussing this" and then change topics.
That's not a course of action I generally manage to take though. In fact (though I am not particularly proud to admit it) I have been guilty of escalating these situations to physical confrontations in the past. Let me tell you from experience, it can be satisfying, but it is extremely counterproductive.
My belief these days is that the best compromise between civility and confrontation is to say something like "Perhaps I misunderstood the sort of gathering we were having here. If this is meant to be the sort of place where it's kosher to rail against the grand Zionist conspiracy, then I had best leave. If not, perhaps you should." At which point you may have to look pointedly at the host. There's a good chance you won't be invited back though, even if the host agrees with you ideologically.
As for your original question about what to do now: I'd say gently bring it up with the host, perhaps by e-mail. Ask if that guy regularly makes that sort of ridiculous comment. If nothing else, this will give you a chance to feel out where the host stand on all this and you can re-evaluate whether you want anything to do with him either.
posted by 256 at 2:58 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
desertface: "If you don't want to call him out in a way that shows how angry you are, you could politely say something more like
"I would advise you to reconsider voicing an opinion like that in public... unless you're not at all concerned with offending someone."
That's one that I'll try to remember for future use, as it avoids escalating the situation while making it more than clear that you won't tolerate such remarks.
fivesavagepalms: "It's often hard to think of a good response right then and there, so you're stuck with what-do-they-call-it?--a French phrase for thinking of what you should have said on the staircase on the way home?
Esprit d'escalier. (staircase humour)
posted by lookoutbelow at 3:14 PM on September 1, 2011
"I would advise you to reconsider voicing an opinion like that in public... unless you're not at all concerned with offending someone."
That's one that I'll try to remember for future use, as it avoids escalating the situation while making it more than clear that you won't tolerate such remarks.
fivesavagepalms: "It's often hard to think of a good response right then and there, so you're stuck with what-do-they-call-it?--a French phrase for thinking of what you should have said on the staircase on the way home?
Esprit d'escalier. (staircase humour)
posted by lookoutbelow at 3:14 PM on September 1, 2011
Response by poster: @256 "... it can be satisfying, but it is extremely counterproductive."
Do you mind elaborating on that. Sort of captures the dilemna I always feel in dealing with difficult people. It IS satisfying to act on your anger and feel like you're standing up for yourself "boy, you really are a dick aren't you," but I guess I could see, depending on the situation, it may be counterproductive." Then again, certain difficult people, sometimes need to be punched in the nose (e.g., petty bullies) to change their behavior, so it's hard to know what "do the right thing" is in a lot of these situations.
posted by Jon44 at 3:39 PM on September 1, 2011
Do you mind elaborating on that. Sort of captures the dilemna I always feel in dealing with difficult people. It IS satisfying to act on your anger and feel like you're standing up for yourself "boy, you really are a dick aren't you," but I guess I could see, depending on the situation, it may be counterproductive." Then again, certain difficult people, sometimes need to be punched in the nose (e.g., petty bullies) to change their behavior, so it's hard to know what "do the right thing" is in a lot of these situations.
posted by Jon44 at 3:39 PM on September 1, 2011
you're not going to change anyone's opinions by punching them out. In most circumstances, you won't even change their behaviour. So you end up buying the cheap victory of "I defend righteousness... with my fists" at the expense of having turned an awkward situation into a violent one for no reason. Not to mention all the potential social, and even criminal, fallout that's hanging in the wings whenever adults get into a fist fight.
I do agree that sometimes people need a punch in the nose. But I think that the situations when that's warranted are situations where someone is physically throwing their weight around. Particularly when someone is pushing the boundaries of violence for their own benefit (grabbing people by the arm, pushing them aside, poking them) comfortable in the belief that no-one will escalate it. Fortunately, this behaviour tends to stop around high-school, in part because people get punched in the nose.
But intentionally goading someone loathsome into physicality for the sake of feeling justified in punching them out is not admirable behaviour. And, like I said, I am not proud of having indulged in it in the past.
posted by 256 at 4:07 PM on September 1, 2011
I do agree that sometimes people need a punch in the nose. But I think that the situations when that's warranted are situations where someone is physically throwing their weight around. Particularly when someone is pushing the boundaries of violence for their own benefit (grabbing people by the arm, pushing them aside, poking them) comfortable in the belief that no-one will escalate it. Fortunately, this behaviour tends to stop around high-school, in part because people get punched in the nose.
But intentionally goading someone loathsome into physicality for the sake of feeling justified in punching them out is not admirable behaviour. And, like I said, I am not proud of having indulged in it in the past.
posted by 256 at 4:07 PM on September 1, 2011
Is there any chance that the guy might himself be jewish? Pretty much all my jewish friends and I make snarky jew jokes amongst ourselves, and for the ones of us who do not look "typically jewish," we often get a lot of strange and judgmental looks.
posted by elizardbits at 5:48 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by elizardbits at 5:48 PM on September 1, 2011
Is there any chance that the guy might himself be jewish? Pretty much all my jewish friends and I make snarky jew jokes amongst ourselves, and for the ones of us who do not look "typically jewish," we often get a lot of strange and judgmental looks.
Which, incidentally, is another reason why "Are you joking?" is a good stock reply. They might in fact be joking.
posted by 256 at 5:52 PM on September 1, 2011
Which, incidentally, is another reason why "Are you joking?" is a good stock reply. They might in fact be joking.
posted by 256 at 5:52 PM on September 1, 2011
I love the southern phrase "Do what now?" for any and all inappropriate comments, weird questions, unwelcome advances and all other awkward social occurrences. I find it instantly makes the other person stop and think about what you said, which generally in turn makes them think about what they said. Or at the very least it shuts them up.*
*This may not work if you actually live in a southern state that uses this phrase
posted by ephemerista at 6:00 PM on September 1, 2011
*This may not work if you actually live in a southern state that uses this phrase
posted by ephemerista at 6:00 PM on September 1, 2011
The obvious thing to say in that particular situation would have been, "I'm surprised that Jews make a lot of special requests of your mother. Usually they're satisfied with a quick one in the missionary position and they're on their way".
posted by Carlo at 6:27 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by Carlo at 6:27 PM on September 1, 2011
"That's a very odd comment, and not consistent with my experience as a Jew. I wonder of you could explain what you mean."
I do a variant of this which is "I'm Jewish and that just seems like such an odd thing to say, could you tell me a little bit more about what you think is going on there?" Since it seems like in your situation the person was being somewhat ignorant about possibly a number of things [accommodations, impact of politicians, perhaps a Jewish conspiracy, how you talk about people from other religion generally (and agree, make sure he's not Jewish and thinking he's being with other MOTs)] and it might actually be an opportunity to clear some things up while at the same time maybe make it clear that he's being sort of .... weird. Like maybe he's personally anti-Semitic but even if that's true, it might be a better idea for him to get to know that polite dinner table conversation isn't, period.
I always assume that given a chance to either change or shut up or continue on, people will usually do one of the two former options even if they are actually terrible people. At some level I don't think I personally can fix the guy if he's truly anti-Semitic but I may be able to get him to shut up, or maybe even see some sort of clear "oooh this is not the way you talk about people when they might be listening" light bulb.
posted by jessamyn at 6:32 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I do a variant of this which is "I'm Jewish and that just seems like such an odd thing to say, could you tell me a little bit more about what you think is going on there?" Since it seems like in your situation the person was being somewhat ignorant about possibly a number of things [accommodations, impact of politicians, perhaps a Jewish conspiracy, how you talk about people from other religion generally (and agree, make sure he's not Jewish and thinking he's being with other MOTs)] and it might actually be an opportunity to clear some things up while at the same time maybe make it clear that he's being sort of .... weird. Like maybe he's personally anti-Semitic but even if that's true, it might be a better idea for him to get to know that polite dinner table conversation isn't, period.
I always assume that given a chance to either change or shut up or continue on, people will usually do one of the two former options even if they are actually terrible people. At some level I don't think I personally can fix the guy if he's truly anti-Semitic but I may be able to get him to shut up, or maybe even see some sort of clear "oooh this is not the way you talk about people when they might be listening" light bulb.
posted by jessamyn at 6:32 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm with peachfuzz - the comment was generally offensive. Possibly / probably more personally offensive to you if you're Jewish, but even if no-one there was Jewish, it would still be offensive and I'd hope that the person making that comment would still be called out on it.
But it's a dinner party, so it's best to do it in a way that doesn't cause a fight. Asking them to explain why they feel the way they do can have two results - some "innocent" questions can result in a backtracking which indicates that while they have some prejudices (possibly a good reason not to go hiking with them!), they recognise that what they said wasn't appropriate and the dinner party moves onto more interesting / fun topics. Or they may dig themselves a bigger hole, in which case the casual, calm "I'm Jewish" response is a dignified way of making the point and moving the conversation on so that the dinner party isn't ruined, but everyone recognises that they're not a very nice person. But it has far more impact after they've dug the hole...
The "making it personal" thing is great as a trump card, but you have the moral highground without it, and sometimes you can have more impact without making it personal - making it personal can turn the conversation in a less savoury direction, so save it for when you really need it...
Good luck. And don't go hiking if the coworker is going to be there. That doesn't sound like fun - and hiking is supposed to be fun!
posted by finding.perdita at 6:55 PM on September 1, 2011
But it's a dinner party, so it's best to do it in a way that doesn't cause a fight. Asking them to explain why they feel the way they do can have two results - some "innocent" questions can result in a backtracking which indicates that while they have some prejudices (possibly a good reason not to go hiking with them!), they recognise that what they said wasn't appropriate and the dinner party moves onto more interesting / fun topics. Or they may dig themselves a bigger hole, in which case the casual, calm "I'm Jewish" response is a dignified way of making the point and moving the conversation on so that the dinner party isn't ruined, but everyone recognises that they're not a very nice person. But it has far more impact after they've dug the hole...
The "making it personal" thing is great as a trump card, but you have the moral highground without it, and sometimes you can have more impact without making it personal - making it personal can turn the conversation in a less savoury direction, so save it for when you really need it...
Good luck. And don't go hiking if the coworker is going to be there. That doesn't sound like fun - and hiking is supposed to be fun!
posted by finding.perdita at 6:55 PM on September 1, 2011
You could have always just said 'you know I'm jewish, right?'And then the speaker would backpedal like crazy. Or the similar 'hmm, how do you know I'm not jewish?' Which is also uncomfortable. I have students who say many crazy things and once you point out to them that they actually wouldn't be comfortable saying those things in front of the actual party/person, they usually realize there's a problem with what they're saying.
posted by bquarters at 7:16 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by bquarters at 7:16 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
"What do you mean, if he gets elected? I was at a Jewish global conspiracy meeting just last week and we already decided it's a done deal. Also, there was babka!"
posted by obiwanwasabi at 9:46 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by obiwanwasabi at 9:46 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's just me, but I've had the "how do you mean?" neutral comment result in the bigot expounding at length in a reasonable voice about their batshitinsane theory with people still not sure how to respond. Moving on then seems even more awkward. "Huh, okay, interesting... Benny, pass the salt?"
posted by canine epigram at 5:54 AM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by canine epigram at 5:54 AM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hey, just wanted to say thanks for all the great input.
And...I was 99% sure I'd get a response along the lines of "just cause you disagree with the coworker's political views, you have to insult her. What's that say about you?"
So...restores my faith in metafilter that all responses were on-topic and thoughtful. Thanks again,
Jon
posted by Jon44 at 3:18 PM on September 3, 2011
And...I was 99% sure I'd get a response along the lines of "just cause you disagree with the coworker's political views, you have to insult her. What's that say about you?"
So...restores my faith in metafilter that all responses were on-topic and thoughtful. Thanks again,
Jon
posted by Jon44 at 3:18 PM on September 3, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
- Don't hang out with their friend-of-a-friend again. Tell people why if you must.
- If you're really hung up on it, donate some money to an anti-defamation league.
If you're asking what to do if this happens in the future:
- The age-old-tested MetaFilter "Oh, so why do you think that?" which forces the bigot to explain his/her attitude usually works pretty well in allowing bigot to demonstrate his/her own stupidity.
posted by k8t at 11:51 AM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]