How do you avoid getting physical when a kid just walks away?

August 27, 2011 12:51 AM

How do you avoid getting physical when a kid just walks away?

I really feel the loss of control when I tell a kid to brush his teeth and he just walks out of the bathroom, but holding the door shut is just a power struggle. And physically restraining him from walking out of the bedroom is not going to make him sleepy or help anyone else get to sleep. Is it important to prevent him from avoiding authority this way, and how?

Kid is only five, and a really sweet nephew. The bathroom situation his mom resolved after some yelling with a "let's have yogurt and then brush" compromise, the bedtime situation I resolved by letting him go out and then shutting down all the lights.

posted by Noumenon to Human Relations (18 answers total)

Is nephew staying with you temporarily or long term?
posted by bq at 1:03 AM on August 27, 2011

You mention his mom; I think you should ask her.
posted by randomname25 at 1:10 AM on August 27, 2011

Well, you could ask him why he doesn't want to brush. Many adults don't ask.

As episodic said, it's complex. Maybe his toothbrush hurts his mouth, or he doesn't like the taste of his toothpaste, or his gums are tender. Or something completely outside of anything having to do with brushing his teeth.

Ask.
posted by DisreputableDog at 1:31 AM on August 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

Deep breath. Then, say to yourself, "I'm teaching here."

Because in that moment, you are teaching him how someone he loves and respects, an adult man, as he will be one day, handles rage. For me, as a single parent, just reminding myself of that was enough to calm me the fuck down. Or at least, to make me recognize that calming down was what I must do, now, whether that meant walking away, or whatever.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 1:41 AM on August 27, 2011 [58 favorites]

Best answer: You should realise that you are still engaging in an ultimately fruitless power struggle here. You just happen to have more tools at your disposal with which to win these battles right now. This is not a great parenting approach.

You are better off embracing a system of routine, boundaries, rewards, and consequences. Do you have a chart system in place? If he can put a star on his chart for brushing twice a day, every day for a week, he gets a reward. If he doesn't get all his stars, there is no reward. THAT is the consequence. Therefore there is no need to yell or fight.

"No! I don't want to brush my teeth."

"Well, that is your choice but it makes me very sad that you can't put a star on your chart because that means no movie on Saturday. We can brush our teeth together if you like; here, let's set a timer and brush for one minute!"

"No!"

"Ok then, there will be no star and no movie. Is that your choice?"

And then the next day you take down the old chart, put up a new chart, and try again for the next 7 days.

For bed time, make sure you have a routine that includes bedtime reading. If he won't get into bed, there will be no stories, but more importantly, there won't be anything else, either - the TV will be off, the computer will be off, the gameboy will be put away, and the only conversation any adult will be having with him is "It's time to go to sleep. Are you ready to try again?" "No, we are not watching TV; it is time to go to sleep." "No, we are not playing with blocks; it is time to go to sleep."

All of this stuff takes longer and requires HUGE consistency but if you at least have a plan, you are less likely to get that complete loss of control, enraged feeling. You know what will happen next and it isn't an angry thing. Yes, you can force your 5 year old to do things by being physically aggressive, but parenting from a position of rage isn't a good long term plan.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:55 AM on August 27, 2011 [25 favorites]

Response by poster: More info:
I don't really have any parenting authority; I'm just an uncle who spends about 10-20 hours a week visiting and playing with my sister's kids. I've done it since my nephew was a baby. Since my sister's divorced, and I have a lot of conservative Christian relatives, there are a lot of people telling me I'm providing valuable father-figure modeling. Conundrums like this make me glad I'm not responsible for it full time.

Temper isn't really an issue (I'm sure it would be if we lived together all the time), I just feel like grownups are supposed to be strict sometimes and maintain an expectation of compliance. Physically carrying a kid off is always the final way to do that and create a "you can't win" feeling, but it also feels like an abuse of power over someone small and helpless. Like sending in the SWAT team must feel.

My sister-in-law advised me to use threats, the "system of routine, boundaries, rewards, and consequences" seems more like what a stable regime would do to keep power.

So when you say "If he won't get into bed, there will be no stories, but more importantly, there won't be anything else, either - the TV will be off, the computer will be off, the gameboy will be put away, and the only conversation any adult will be having with him is 'It's time to go to sleep,'" I think that will cover it in my specific case. But if my nephew was a little less compliant, and would stay up alone playing with his shoes or something, is that OK because it doesn't cross any of the specific boundaries on TV and conversation with adults? And if he tried to plug in the TV, does that bring on a "you plug in, I pull plug out" physical confrontation or do I just say "OK, tomorrow I am going to have 'must not plug in the TV' on my star chart"?
posted by Noumenon at 3:49 AM on August 27, 2011

If he attempts to plug in the TV after having been told "No, we are not watching TV; it is time to go to sleep" that child gets a warning and then a Time Out for five minutes.

"No. We are not watching TV. It is time for bed. If you plug the TV in again, you will get a time out."

That is a whole 'nother battle that requires the patience of Job to get going, but once he learns that he will be completing the time out, even if it takes an hour for him to sit for the full five minutes, it becomes a viable threat. (Most of the threats your sister issues are probably not viable, either because she doesn't enforce them or they're so distant they feel of no consequence to the child.)

See: Super Nanny on Time Outs (the naughty chair.) Referenced not because I am a huge Super Nanny fan but so that you can see how the time out system is a hard but effective measure to get in place. You need to give the kid a chance to figure out how it works. This is a potentially painful learning process for all involved.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:09 AM on August 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

Ah, the old don't wanna brush routine.

First off; it's ok to lose to the kid, once in a while (by "lose" I mean "fail to get him to see your point of view." So long as you don't give up forever, it's ok to let it go right now for the sake of your blood pressure/rage, then just keep bringing it up until it clicks.)

Second, here's what I did for my kid (YMMV): I put a little toothpaste on his brush/dampen it, and let him brush while I read him stories (and refuse to keep reading if he stops brushing). We actually sit on the couch for this, he doesn't brush hard enough to create lots of drool/spit that requires standing over a sink. We also got some of those little plastic flossers and he does that, too.

Taste of the toothpaste is important; we had to try a few before he found one he liked.
posted by emjaybee at 5:29 AM on August 27, 2011

Oh, hit post too soon; I also talk to him about why we brush; showed him pics online of rotten teeth; kidded him when he wouldn't brush one side that that is where the germs hang out to make holes in his teeth; talked about my fillings; etc.
posted by emjaybee at 5:31 AM on August 27, 2011

I got my kid (who is seven) to brush his teeth on a regular basis by:

1.) Letting him pick his own toothbrush at the store
2.) Finding a toothpaste the taste and texture of which he actually likes (this is important, because he has sensory issues)
3.) Explaining to him what cavities are and how they happen (and mentioning that they hurt)
4.) Not making a battle of wills out of it. If he says "I don't want to brush my teeth" I say, "Okay, that's your choice, but if you don't brush your teeth, you know you are putting yourself at risk for getting cavities." Emphasizing the natural negative consequences of his choice is actually pretty effective in my own kid's case. YMMV.

Natural consequences works for other things, in our house too:

"If you won't listen to my directions about getting ready for bed, that's your choice, but if you take too long to get ready for bed, I will not have time to read you a story tonight."

Some other things that don't have immediately obvious natural consequences require enforced consequences. In my house, leaving the bedroom at night after bedtime is NOT a choice. I tell my son he is welcome to stay awake in the dark in his room as long as he likes, but he is not to leave his room unless he has to go to the bathroom, he's sick or the house is on fire.

I enforce this by taking away bedtime privileges for the next night. As in, "If you won't stay in your room tonight, you can't have a story tomorrow night."

The key here is to stay CALM and rational. Kids this age are all about testing adult boundaries and seeing what they can get away with. Kids can sense adult anger and frustration like sharks sensing blood in the water. If you lose control of your emotions and blow up at a kid who is committing minor acts of mischief, you have already lost half the battle. Kids respect adults who are consistent sources of rational guidance. It's better to have kids behave for you out of respect than fear.
posted by BlueJae at 7:48 AM on August 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

It seems like you have this issue in other aspects of your relationship besides the toothbrushing scenario, but I just wanted to throw this out there: what if he just really hates the act of brushing his teeth? Is there something you could both do to make it more tolerable? Maybe he hates the feeling of stiff bristles on his teeth and gums, you could try a softer toothbrush. Or maybe he is squicked out by the nasty bubblegummy kids flavored toothpaste / super astringent minty adult toothpaste and you could try something else.
posted by pintapicasso at 2:43 PM on August 27, 2011

Response by poster: I think timeout may be the missing piece of the puzzle here. I should definitely look at root causes like toothpaste taste and have lighter consequences like no story reading, but there's always the question "what if nothing works?" Timeout changes the physical carrying away from being "how I get my way in the end (with force)" to "how I enforce my system of punishments." It's a lot more neutral and fair-seeming.
posted by Noumenon at 3:08 PM on August 27, 2011

Noumenon , the point is that the challenges you are facing are totally normal and there are wide methodologies out there for discipline. You are not facing unsolved problems and you do not need to figure all of it out from scratch.The whole charts/timers/timeouts etc. thing is one broad approach. There are many others, from the more rigid to the far more lax.

You can find a model that gels with your values and rock that. As long as you are consistent and your method is matched to the temperament of the child, that's the best you can do.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:40 PM on August 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

"After eating, we need to brush so our teeth don't rot out of our heads. You don't want to brush? Okay. You don't eat. Let me know when you want to renegotiate."
posted by pla at 6:39 PM on August 27, 2011

Not sure withhold food from a young child is the best strategy there. It is important to keep steps of consequence as few as possible. So: no brushing>bad teeth>no eating, could just lead to "hey if I don't eat I don't have to brush my teeth", not to mention that withholding food may be considered abuse by many people. I know we are not allowed to do it when working with adults with Developmental Disabilities, and would get thrown in jail for it.
posted by edgeways at 7:34 PM on August 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

I just feel like grownups are supposed to be strict sometimes and maintain an expectation of compliance.

May I encourage you to spend some time exploring this aspect of it? Why do grownups need to be "strict"? Why is "compliance" important?

My mother's approach to childrearing was anything but permissive hippy-dippy (despite it being the '70s), but apparently when I was still a baby she decided that any time she told me to do something or not to do something, she had to have a reason for what she was saying; if she didn't have a reason (and "because I'm the mommy, that's why" was not a reason) she would back down.

As a result, because my experience was consistently Mom has good reasons for what she says to do, and because she was willing to discuss and negotiate with me, I never got into the habit of rebellion or resistance. On the very rare occasions when she did say "Do as I say and we're not discussing it now", she had built up so much credit and trust with me that I would do what she was saying, knowing that she had a reason and that she'd explain later what was going on.

Dad's parenting philosophy was different and he would try to put his foot down about pointless things for no good reason. (Really, if the 13-year-old wants to dye her hair unnatural shades of orange, in the grand scheme of things this is so not a problem that making a fuss over it is unnecessarily expending parental mojo and diluting one's authority.) When I hit adolescence, he and I did have problems with resistance and rebellion and disregard for parental authority.
posted by Lexica at 9:38 PM on August 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Ok, I'll address this first: "what if nothing works?" That is, how do you force them without forcing, right?

First of all, just because you're an adult, that doesn't mean he has to obey you, now or ever. Authority isn't something you can wear like a mantle just because you're a relative. Unless you're living with a child or are their natural parent, be prepared to be disregarded more and more as he ages. I remember how hilarious I thought it was when my uncle thought he could discipline me at 11 years old after only seeing me now and then throughout my life, and further, he thought he could do things 'his way' rather than the way I was used to. It wasn't even that I resisted; I didn't even take him seriously.

You have no responsibility to force a relationship that isn't there; instead, you build it. A child will obey you if and only if you provide them with a structure or environment they need/appreciate. An uncle who takes you on trips, teaches things, is informative, is supportive-- that's the kind of uncle a child wants to impress, to listen to. That's the kind of uncle that has leverage.

The problem a lot of people have is treating young children as if they're recalcitrant pets. They don't mean to, consciously, but this attitude of control basically comes down to the idea that children should fall in line, when push comes to shove, and 'behave'. After all, 1) adults always know better; 2) if there wasn't discipline, the little brats would run wild, and then the adults would never have any peace. In reality, children have reasons for any behavior. They're not either mindlessly resisting or mindless obeying. If a child does what you say, it's not because you're a good trainer-- it's because they trust you or they fear you; hopefully the former, of course. Frequently, adults settle for the latter. But that can be uncomfortable; you can tell yourself that force is necessary, but it still feels wrong on some level. Anyway, ultimately it's a self-defeating strategy; the more force is applied in childhood, the more rebellion is ultimately coming later on. There are things I was forced to do (including teeth-brushing) through sheer repetition and manipulation and control, that I'd really rather not do at all even now that I'm an adult. It's really a lot better for a child to learn things the hard way (say, people make fun of yellow teeth), or to want to do things (like, 'well if you do X, you can get Y in return'), even if this means perfect obedience isn't in the cards. But then, perfect obedience is never in the cards.

Children-- young kids especially-- like to push at boundaries to see what happens. Sometimes they do have another reason, but a lot of times they're just unaware what the point is of certain things, and more importantly, they want to see what happens if they quit. The way adults react is very telling, and very important in the sense of whether it builds trust or wariness. My experience as a precociously intelligent kid is much like that of Lexica, above-- I did best when I was taken seriously and wasn't simply given orders. Taking a kid seriously at 5 years old is quite possible; they already understand reasons for things. You can get a commitment to a strategy with a child that young by taking them into your confidence, or making brushing cool, or having a man-to-man promise, or whatever. Usually the 'man-to-man promise' involves 'lowering' yourself to be more on the level with the kid, so he trusts you. I think getting the kid to take responsibility is more valuable than learning obedience anyway... but it's more effort. Still, it's more suitable to a hands-off uncle role, anyway. If the uncle is respected and admired, this may turn into a reason to do things more diligently, and eventually to push less and obey more.
posted by reenka at 11:46 PM on August 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

You mentioned a big problem right in your post. You are not the parent. Sure, you may be filling in as a semi-official parental role and providing some mentoring, but you are not the parent. Nor are you an official authority figure (teacher, etc.). This can lead to some confusion for the child.

I suggest you sit down with your sister-in-law and talk about this. It doesn't help if you have a set of expectations/rules and the child's mom has a different set. It would be best to come to a common understanding of what you should/could do in a situation like this.

Also, is this type of behavior a common occurrence, or is it once-in-a-while? Sure, kids will test their boundaries and this is normal. But if the child consistently disobeys or challenges your requests, there may be more going on.

As for specific styles of parenting/discipline, you've already seen several suggestions. Being a good parent is oftentimes a balance between love and discipline. As a parent you can't just give them everything they want (candy, tv, etc.) simply because they are not mature enough to understand all consequences, but you also just can't bully or boss kids around. I think you have some good ideas from the responses. Personally, I would try to avoid a battle of wills with a child and lay out possible consequences of bad behavior (like you suggested) and let them choose: "you can brush your teeth and have a snack/story, or you can go straight to bed".
posted by aarondesk at 5:38 PM on August 28, 2011