There comes a time, in every man's life, where decisions have to be made. Whether to toil, to labor, or just plain piss your days away.
August 11, 2011 7:55 AM Subscribe
This is a long question about what to do with a troublesome parent. It's less a "what would you do" and more a "what is the right thing to do" question. This is the longest question I have ever asked. I'm sorry.
This is about my dad---and about me, but mostly our relationship together.
Our history looks like this: He's my mom's second husband, she's his second wife. He is estranged from his daughter (my half sister), I do not know the details of why. When she was 20 or so she contacted him (I was about 18) and they made friendly for a couple years, and then (and this is a recurring theme), because he is a dick, he scared her off and hasn't heard from her since. My father came home from Vietnam in 1969, and has been diagnosed PTSD since about 1979. I am fairly certain he is at least bipolar with paranoid delusion and possibly has borderline personality disorder. This is part of my issue. More on that later.
As a kid, he was a good dad, but could never seem to hold a job. Truthfully, by the time I was 25 years old I had worked at once place longer than he had in his entire life. My dad was 32 when I was born if you're interested in the maths. When I was a teenager, he started as an over-the-road trucker and our relationship pretty much fell apart. This was pre-high-speed internet, pre-affordable laptop, etc. To his credit, I didn't try to salvage it any more than he did. Fast forward a couple years and my great aunt passed away, leaving a sizable but not immense volume of money to my mother. Right about $100k or so. Like I said, my dad can't keep a job, and convinced my mom that she should buy him into a small business, which she did. It took about $70k to get it off the ground. He ran it Ok for a few years, but didn't have a whole lot of motivation every day. Within about 5 years, all the money was gone---partially due to him spending from a brokerage account that my mother did not realize he had access to. About 5 days after my 19th birthday, I got arrested because of my involvement with some stupid teenager stuff. My dad fell apart and was convinced I was going to prison forever. He never once in all of it expressed any support for me---he gave up. He spent a year in his room in his underwear, letting the business fall into ruin.
With my mom at my side, we came through it and here I am today---doing pretty well. My dad on the other hand---not so much. Somewhere in all of that, my grandmother passed away, leaving another couple hundred thousand dollars to my mother. He spent another $40k or so trying to save the business, but it was too late, and wound up selling it off at an excessive loss. Again, tens of thousands of dollars. Since then, he’s run through buckets of cash on stupid cars and thing he doesn’t need, all while working sporadically at stupid jobs. He has not really contributed to house finances since about 1999. My mother, who is now 67, works 40 hours a week at a local grocery store. My dad “retired” last year. After my grandmother passed away, they purchased her house from the estate, and since then have done little to nothing to maintain it. My dad has started several projects, but he always walks away from them. There are holes in the walls, etc. With maybe $50k in work, this would be a half-million dollar house, as it is they’d be lucky to get $200k. Anyway, moving on…
About 8 years ago, my dad had spinal surgery at the VA hospital. He did not do his requisite PT or really anything they told him to, and now it’s worse than it was before. About a month ago, he had a hip replacement. He is, again, not taking his PT seriously and spends the entirety of every day sitting in a chair playing some browser based MMO. He expects his wife and the rest of us to wait on him hand and foot. I live about 25 miles away, although I work about 2 miles from their house. I have an 8 month old son, my own house, my own business, and my own work (2 jobs) to do. My primary job is in disability rights and accessibility construction---so believe me that I’m qualified to say that he does not need 24 hour care or any more assistive technologies. I’ve gotten him absolutely everything he needs, including a lift chair.
About 4 years ago, I had a very direct conversation with my father, explaining to him that his smoking was something I would no longer tolerate. My fiancée has severe asthma, and it gives me migraines. I told him that he was welcome to smoke wherever he wanted to, but that I wouldn’t ride in a car with him any more, and I wouldn’t stay at their house any more. When I bought my house, I explained that there would be no smoking anywhere at my house, including the porch, he could go in the yard. We’ve been in the house for 20 months, and he’s been there three times including once when he lit up in my kitchen. When we had our baby in December, we all agreed (less my father) to have Christmas dinner at our house. He didn’t come for multiple reasons, mostly because he couldn’t smoke inside and because of all things I added broccoli-cheese casserole to the menu for the meal. For that matter, when we took my parents to dinner to tell them they would be grandparents, he stormed out of the restaurant like a child before we even had the opportunity to tell them. Nobody will actually eat in a restaurant with him now, because he’s “that guy” who wants to throw a fit about everything.
So, then, what is this question about?
My mother and my brother (half brother, not his son) enable him in everything he does. Always. They always have. I do not, have not, will not. I have been clear, polite, and direct with him regarding the way he treats people. A few weeks ago, he pulled me aside to say that “He really appreciates me” and “we really need to work on our relationship”. While he said these words he was blowing cigarette smoke in my face.
Right before his surgery, he told me in confidence that if his disability comes through and when his Social Security starts to pay him for real, he intends to leave my mother and move back to Arkansas. There is absolutely no way she will pursue him for anything, and honestly it would be best for her---I’m just not OK with him leaving her in a financial lurch. If he goes, he’ll be saying goodbye to me and his grandson. I haven’t told him that yet, and that’s part of the issue. I’m sharing this because it’s time to hit at the heart of the question:
One week a year my mother goes out of town. It’s Thursday morning through Sunday morning. It’s this week, starting today. My father has demanded that me or my brother stay with him overnight. He walks without a cane, crutches, or walker. He does not get up in the night to use the bathroom, and he has a potty chair beside the bed in case he does. He uses his cell phone constantly, goes to bed about midnight, and sleeps until about noon. Home health care comes in to assist with bathing, he can prepare his own food fine. He is supposed to be walking around the house as part of his PT, he is not. He elected to come home instead of going to the rehab hospital.
My brother is coming down on me for not wanting to spend the night. My mom says he doesn’t need it but isn’t willing to tell him. The onus of being the bad guy is on me. Later today I’ll travel to his house to “check on him”, and that’s where I’ll discuss with him that I’m not staying with him and nobody needs to. I absolutely guarantee that he is perfectly safe, he’s just lonely. I should mention that about a year ago he ran his best friend off because that friend, after surviving prostate cancer and being cheated on by his wife, started dating at 24 year old. That friend came to the Christmas dinner that my dad refused to come to, and said it was ridiculous that he stayed home.
SO the question: How much leash are you obligated to give someone just because they’re a family member? At what point do you stop? Everything in his life is someone else’s fault, the result of someone else’s shortcomings, nothing is ever on his shoulders. He is my father, and I love him---but I’m tired of him. Is it wrong of me to draw a line in the sand about the smoking? (I was one of those kids in the back seat with the windows rolled up while both my parents smoked away, and it pisses me right off.) Should I stay with him overnight? What is the right thing to do?
TLDR: My dad is difficult. He makes my fiancee cry, he tells people that there's nothing to be proud of for being a grandfather "Yay, my son knows how to have sex." He has done nothing for my family in over a decade, and now wants us at his beck and call. He is not dying. What to do?
This is about my dad---and about me, but mostly our relationship together.
Our history looks like this: He's my mom's second husband, she's his second wife. He is estranged from his daughter (my half sister), I do not know the details of why. When she was 20 or so she contacted him (I was about 18) and they made friendly for a couple years, and then (and this is a recurring theme), because he is a dick, he scared her off and hasn't heard from her since. My father came home from Vietnam in 1969, and has been diagnosed PTSD since about 1979. I am fairly certain he is at least bipolar with paranoid delusion and possibly has borderline personality disorder. This is part of my issue. More on that later.
As a kid, he was a good dad, but could never seem to hold a job. Truthfully, by the time I was 25 years old I had worked at once place longer than he had in his entire life. My dad was 32 when I was born if you're interested in the maths. When I was a teenager, he started as an over-the-road trucker and our relationship pretty much fell apart. This was pre-high-speed internet, pre-affordable laptop, etc. To his credit, I didn't try to salvage it any more than he did. Fast forward a couple years and my great aunt passed away, leaving a sizable but not immense volume of money to my mother. Right about $100k or so. Like I said, my dad can't keep a job, and convinced my mom that she should buy him into a small business, which she did. It took about $70k to get it off the ground. He ran it Ok for a few years, but didn't have a whole lot of motivation every day. Within about 5 years, all the money was gone---partially due to him spending from a brokerage account that my mother did not realize he had access to. About 5 days after my 19th birthday, I got arrested because of my involvement with some stupid teenager stuff. My dad fell apart and was convinced I was going to prison forever. He never once in all of it expressed any support for me---he gave up. He spent a year in his room in his underwear, letting the business fall into ruin.
With my mom at my side, we came through it and here I am today---doing pretty well. My dad on the other hand---not so much. Somewhere in all of that, my grandmother passed away, leaving another couple hundred thousand dollars to my mother. He spent another $40k or so trying to save the business, but it was too late, and wound up selling it off at an excessive loss. Again, tens of thousands of dollars. Since then, he’s run through buckets of cash on stupid cars and thing he doesn’t need, all while working sporadically at stupid jobs. He has not really contributed to house finances since about 1999. My mother, who is now 67, works 40 hours a week at a local grocery store. My dad “retired” last year. After my grandmother passed away, they purchased her house from the estate, and since then have done little to nothing to maintain it. My dad has started several projects, but he always walks away from them. There are holes in the walls, etc. With maybe $50k in work, this would be a half-million dollar house, as it is they’d be lucky to get $200k. Anyway, moving on…
About 8 years ago, my dad had spinal surgery at the VA hospital. He did not do his requisite PT or really anything they told him to, and now it’s worse than it was before. About a month ago, he had a hip replacement. He is, again, not taking his PT seriously and spends the entirety of every day sitting in a chair playing some browser based MMO. He expects his wife and the rest of us to wait on him hand and foot. I live about 25 miles away, although I work about 2 miles from their house. I have an 8 month old son, my own house, my own business, and my own work (2 jobs) to do. My primary job is in disability rights and accessibility construction---so believe me that I’m qualified to say that he does not need 24 hour care or any more assistive technologies. I’ve gotten him absolutely everything he needs, including a lift chair.
About 4 years ago, I had a very direct conversation with my father, explaining to him that his smoking was something I would no longer tolerate. My fiancée has severe asthma, and it gives me migraines. I told him that he was welcome to smoke wherever he wanted to, but that I wouldn’t ride in a car with him any more, and I wouldn’t stay at their house any more. When I bought my house, I explained that there would be no smoking anywhere at my house, including the porch, he could go in the yard. We’ve been in the house for 20 months, and he’s been there three times including once when he lit up in my kitchen. When we had our baby in December, we all agreed (less my father) to have Christmas dinner at our house. He didn’t come for multiple reasons, mostly because he couldn’t smoke inside and because of all things I added broccoli-cheese casserole to the menu for the meal. For that matter, when we took my parents to dinner to tell them they would be grandparents, he stormed out of the restaurant like a child before we even had the opportunity to tell them. Nobody will actually eat in a restaurant with him now, because he’s “that guy” who wants to throw a fit about everything.
So, then, what is this question about?
My mother and my brother (half brother, not his son) enable him in everything he does. Always. They always have. I do not, have not, will not. I have been clear, polite, and direct with him regarding the way he treats people. A few weeks ago, he pulled me aside to say that “He really appreciates me” and “we really need to work on our relationship”. While he said these words he was blowing cigarette smoke in my face.
Right before his surgery, he told me in confidence that if his disability comes through and when his Social Security starts to pay him for real, he intends to leave my mother and move back to Arkansas. There is absolutely no way she will pursue him for anything, and honestly it would be best for her---I’m just not OK with him leaving her in a financial lurch. If he goes, he’ll be saying goodbye to me and his grandson. I haven’t told him that yet, and that’s part of the issue. I’m sharing this because it’s time to hit at the heart of the question:
One week a year my mother goes out of town. It’s Thursday morning through Sunday morning. It’s this week, starting today. My father has demanded that me or my brother stay with him overnight. He walks without a cane, crutches, or walker. He does not get up in the night to use the bathroom, and he has a potty chair beside the bed in case he does. He uses his cell phone constantly, goes to bed about midnight, and sleeps until about noon. Home health care comes in to assist with bathing, he can prepare his own food fine. He is supposed to be walking around the house as part of his PT, he is not. He elected to come home instead of going to the rehab hospital.
My brother is coming down on me for not wanting to spend the night. My mom says he doesn’t need it but isn’t willing to tell him. The onus of being the bad guy is on me. Later today I’ll travel to his house to “check on him”, and that’s where I’ll discuss with him that I’m not staying with him and nobody needs to. I absolutely guarantee that he is perfectly safe, he’s just lonely. I should mention that about a year ago he ran his best friend off because that friend, after surviving prostate cancer and being cheated on by his wife, started dating at 24 year old. That friend came to the Christmas dinner that my dad refused to come to, and said it was ridiculous that he stayed home.
SO the question: How much leash are you obligated to give someone just because they’re a family member? At what point do you stop? Everything in his life is someone else’s fault, the result of someone else’s shortcomings, nothing is ever on his shoulders. He is my father, and I love him---but I’m tired of him. Is it wrong of me to draw a line in the sand about the smoking? (I was one of those kids in the back seat with the windows rolled up while both my parents smoked away, and it pisses me right off.) Should I stay with him overnight? What is the right thing to do?
TLDR: My dad is difficult. He makes my fiancee cry, he tells people that there's nothing to be proud of for being a grandfather "Yay, my son knows how to have sex." He has done nothing for my family in over a decade, and now wants us at his beck and call. He is not dying. What to do?
Best answer: You've done enough. Prioritize your well being. He sounds like a black hole.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:04 AM on August 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:04 AM on August 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Let this guy go as soon as he wants, help your mother sell off whatever "business assets" she purchased for him so she can recover some kind of money from it, and go on living a better life without this leech.
posted by chrisfromthelc at 8:05 AM on August 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by chrisfromthelc at 8:05 AM on August 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: How much leash are you obligated to give someone just because they’re a family member? At what point do you stop?
You have your own family now. You are someone's dad. If this guy hasn't done a damn thing but been a pain in the ass and financial for everyone around him, it is your responsibility to make sure that his (in)action doesn't extend to your family. And that is whether by his actual interaction with them, or by the stress and shit he puts on you that you end up taking home whether you like it or not.
Wash your hands of him, help out your mom in any way you can -- although I doubt you'll be able to stop her from trying to support him -- that doesn't involve interacting with him, and wash your hands of this situation. It is time for you to be everything he wasn't.
posted by griphus at 8:11 AM on August 11, 2011 [8 favorites]
You have your own family now. You are someone's dad. If this guy hasn't done a damn thing but been a pain in the ass and financial for everyone around him, it is your responsibility to make sure that his (in)action doesn't extend to your family. And that is whether by his actual interaction with them, or by the stress and shit he puts on you that you end up taking home whether you like it or not.
Wash your hands of him, help out your mom in any way you can -- although I doubt you'll be able to stop her from trying to support him -- that doesn't involve interacting with him, and wash your hands of this situation. It is time for you to be everything he wasn't.
posted by griphus at 8:11 AM on August 11, 2011 [8 favorites]
Best answer: You've done more than enough. It's not you who needs to work on the relationship, it's him. He doesn't know how to be an independent human being and the onus is not on you.
Look, you're a dad and a soon-to-be husband. Those are your primary relationships now. Your dad is not your responsibility.
And you're not required to excuse things just because of blood. An asshole is an asshole.
So, stick to your guns, don't stay overnight and limit your contact with this toxic relationship. You can love someone very much and still not be able to be in the same room with him. It's his failing, not yours.
posted by inturnaround at 8:14 AM on August 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Look, you're a dad and a soon-to-be husband. Those are your primary relationships now. Your dad is not your responsibility.
And you're not required to excuse things just because of blood. An asshole is an asshole.
So, stick to your guns, don't stay overnight and limit your contact with this toxic relationship. You can love someone very much and still not be able to be in the same room with him. It's his failing, not yours.
posted by inturnaround at 8:14 AM on August 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It's clear you've done due diligence and are a very conscientious, caring, responsible person, father, son, and soon-to-be-husband.
Let him go. He's an adult. He is responsible for his behavior, and it's clear he is making choices that he knows will hurt him and others, even planning, in all awareness, to hurt your mother further.
Let him go, and yes, help your mother as you can.
There seems to be an unspoken question as well, which is how to deal with the perceptions of your family due to all that's been laid squarely on your shoulders. I know what that's like, been there too. When you know you've done your best and shown love, seen clearly that another is doing nothing but taking advantage of it and wilfully, consciously, acting to harm you and others, whether emotionally, physically, and/or financially, you just have to take a leap of faith in your own uprightness and ignore what the unhealthy family dynamics make others say.
I know it's hard. Listen to the opinions of what people who love you, care about you, and show that with their actions say. Don't listen to the toxicity.
posted by fraula at 8:15 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Let him go. He's an adult. He is responsible for his behavior, and it's clear he is making choices that he knows will hurt him and others, even planning, in all awareness, to hurt your mother further.
Let him go, and yes, help your mother as you can.
There seems to be an unspoken question as well, which is how to deal with the perceptions of your family due to all that's been laid squarely on your shoulders. I know what that's like, been there too. When you know you've done your best and shown love, seen clearly that another is doing nothing but taking advantage of it and wilfully, consciously, acting to harm you and others, whether emotionally, physically, and/or financially, you just have to take a leap of faith in your own uprightness and ignore what the unhealthy family dynamics make others say.
I know it's hard. Listen to the opinions of what people who love you, care about you, and show that with their actions say. Don't listen to the toxicity.
posted by fraula at 8:15 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
...pain in the ass and financial drain for everyone around him...
posted by griphus at 8:16 AM on August 11, 2011
posted by griphus at 8:16 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: A couple of things.
First of all, just so you know, none of the financial stuff is really pertinent to the heart of your question: are you obligated to stay with your dad, and if not, how will you tell him? I point that out not because it was burdensome to read - it was not - but because I think you probably would benefit from looking at your own feelings about money, responsibility, fatherhood and parenting, both on its own and and how that impacts your relationship with your dad. And really, you seem to have a lot of focus on something that ultimately is nothing to do with you - it's between your dad and your mom.
So, maybe look at that - there's a huge amount of resentment (well earned, but still) spilling out in this post and I can't help but think it isn't going to be healthy to cart that through the next 40 or 50 years.
In terms of your immediate problem:
Is it wrong of me to draw a line in the sand about the smoking?
No, that's 100% fine. And I say that as a smoker. Your house, your rules. Your offer of the yard is a reasonable accommodation, and one you are not obligated to make at all. If he chooses to exclude himself because of that, that is his choice.
Should I stay with him overnight? What is the right thing to do?
There is no need to stay with him. You have your own family, your own life and your obligation is to them. You can say to him "I understand that you don't want to stay by yourself and I understand that you are scared. I guarantee that you will be perfectly safe, and I'm sorry this is tough on you." Tough love, firm boundaries, compassionate refusal.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:17 AM on August 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
First of all, just so you know, none of the financial stuff is really pertinent to the heart of your question: are you obligated to stay with your dad, and if not, how will you tell him? I point that out not because it was burdensome to read - it was not - but because I think you probably would benefit from looking at your own feelings about money, responsibility, fatherhood and parenting, both on its own and and how that impacts your relationship with your dad. And really, you seem to have a lot of focus on something that ultimately is nothing to do with you - it's between your dad and your mom.
So, maybe look at that - there's a huge amount of resentment (well earned, but still) spilling out in this post and I can't help but think it isn't going to be healthy to cart that through the next 40 or 50 years.
In terms of your immediate problem:
Is it wrong of me to draw a line in the sand about the smoking?
No, that's 100% fine. And I say that as a smoker. Your house, your rules. Your offer of the yard is a reasonable accommodation, and one you are not obligated to make at all. If he chooses to exclude himself because of that, that is his choice.
Should I stay with him overnight? What is the right thing to do?
There is no need to stay with him. You have your own family, your own life and your obligation is to them. You can say to him "I understand that you don't want to stay by yourself and I understand that you are scared. I guarantee that you will be perfectly safe, and I'm sorry this is tough on you." Tough love, firm boundaries, compassionate refusal.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:17 AM on August 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all, great answers so far. More than I expected. To touch on a few things:
-He told me a few months ago that "I'm sorry for being hard to deal with the last couple months", and I laid it on the line and said it was more like a decade. He told me "We need to work on it" and I said "Forgive me for being blunt, but I'm not willing to put more effort into something that you haven't, yet. So you get started on that, and I'll meet you there when you make some progress."
-I have told him that he is not my priority any more---that my son and my family are what is most important to me. He knows, and I think that's part of it. I didn't get the balls to tell him to sod off until about maybe 4 years ago, and it's something he's not happy about. He wants to tell me what I should do about everything at every point---that's another big part of why we don't spend time together.
-DarlingBri---you hit on what I figured someone would, the financial stuff. You're right that I resent it, but not maybe for the reason you suspect. I resent that he's literally drained my mom for 32 years and now has plans to leave her in the lurch with a house she can't afford---just as he finally becomes financially independent at 65 years old. No joke, the sum total of all he owns on his own in the world is less than $1,500, and he sees that as an accomplishment. I don't expect or feel like I deserve some cash payout when he/she/they die, I just can't abide my mom being screwed. You're right though, that is her responsibility---and I'll never abandon her, it just pisses me off that he would consider it. Especially so in light of expecting her to call off work and cater to him when he plans to leave her as soon as his checks come. It's more "do for me what I won't do for you", and it enrages me.
I do appreciate everything you said there DarlingBri though---you hit the nail on the head and I like your phrasing.
I'll back out now and let more answers come in. Thanks folks.
posted by TomMelee at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2011
-He told me a few months ago that "I'm sorry for being hard to deal with the last couple months", and I laid it on the line and said it was more like a decade. He told me "We need to work on it" and I said "Forgive me for being blunt, but I'm not willing to put more effort into something that you haven't, yet. So you get started on that, and I'll meet you there when you make some progress."
-I have told him that he is not my priority any more---that my son and my family are what is most important to me. He knows, and I think that's part of it. I didn't get the balls to tell him to sod off until about maybe 4 years ago, and it's something he's not happy about. He wants to tell me what I should do about everything at every point---that's another big part of why we don't spend time together.
-DarlingBri---you hit on what I figured someone would, the financial stuff. You're right that I resent it, but not maybe for the reason you suspect. I resent that he's literally drained my mom for 32 years and now has plans to leave her in the lurch with a house she can't afford---just as he finally becomes financially independent at 65 years old. No joke, the sum total of all he owns on his own in the world is less than $1,500, and he sees that as an accomplishment. I don't expect or feel like I deserve some cash payout when he/she/they die, I just can't abide my mom being screwed. You're right though, that is her responsibility---and I'll never abandon her, it just pisses me off that he would consider it. Especially so in light of expecting her to call off work and cater to him when he plans to leave her as soon as his checks come. It's more "do for me what I won't do for you", and it enrages me.
I do appreciate everything you said there DarlingBri though---you hit the nail on the head and I like your phrasing.
I'll back out now and let more answers come in. Thanks folks.
posted by TomMelee at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: I’m saying this as someone who has a mentally ill family member in my life, and I’ve also seen the repercussions (financial at minimum) in my mother’s life. Also answering as a sock puppet as I don't want to say things that will hurt family members, too.
So there are two ways that I would view this: Your mother decided to bring this person into her life and keep him involved in her life. It is not necessarily a rationale decision, but she made the choice. You, however, did not make this decision and should not be responsible for his various antics (i.e. for the love of God, never give him money). tl;dr you are not responsible for any of this and do not need to visit.
The other side of the coin (and I do this too) is that your father is mentally ill. It may be his illness, his brain, whatever, doing these things. If you think about it, obviously he brought himself and will bring himself to worse physical condition by not following up on physical therapy. By the same token, his emotions sound very basic (he may just be lonely, even though he doesn’t need someone there). There is that aspect that you may want to consider stopping by – to help out a lonely person.
I’ll be honest and say that when confronted with choices like these, I chose to run. I live on the opposite end of the country, and I don’t know if I could even visit or help out. But the guilt is there. I don’t know if this helps other than saying other people have been and will be in similar situations.
posted by Dances with sock puppets at 8:30 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
So there are two ways that I would view this: Your mother decided to bring this person into her life and keep him involved in her life. It is not necessarily a rationale decision, but she made the choice. You, however, did not make this decision and should not be responsible for his various antics (i.e. for the love of God, never give him money). tl;dr you are not responsible for any of this and do not need to visit.
The other side of the coin (and I do this too) is that your father is mentally ill. It may be his illness, his brain, whatever, doing these things. If you think about it, obviously he brought himself and will bring himself to worse physical condition by not following up on physical therapy. By the same token, his emotions sound very basic (he may just be lonely, even though he doesn’t need someone there). There is that aspect that you may want to consider stopping by – to help out a lonely person.
I’ll be honest and say that when confronted with choices like these, I chose to run. I live on the opposite end of the country, and I don’t know if I could even visit or help out. But the guilt is there. I don’t know if this helps other than saying other people have been and will be in similar situations.
posted by Dances with sock puppets at 8:30 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I cut contact with several toxic family members about two years ago, and am in relationships with others due to other people close to me needing an on-going relationship with them. I do pretty much what you do with clear boundaries and low expectations for the ones I need to keep the relationship going with, keeping my eye on the bigger benefits it brings for those people close to me. I can well understand if you decided to keep the relationship going because it would devastate your mother who you do want to support if you cut ties completely, for example.
Fortunately, your other family is giving you fairly minor guilt over your boundaries, and it sounds like you removing yourself will not have much impact on their direct relationships, ie: your dad won't out of spite cut them off too.
When I decided to cut contact with the toxic family members, I felt incredibly guilty. It helped to have had two people who knew the gory details and had themselves high moral standards give me the okay to go forward. People I didn't respect as much did the same, but it lacked emotional weight. Maybe find someone you respect ethically/morally and ask them?
The other thing that helped me was deciding that in certain emergencies and with certain changes, I would resume contact. I set out some steps - I think it was no contact except by mail, and you talk to a therapist and acknowledge that this stuff happened. They've tried lots of other things, expensive gifts etc, but none of these three steps have never been even attempted, so it's clear to me that they have chosen not to bridge the gap.
I also have committed to emergencies. If something dire happens, and they need me, I will be there. If they're hospitalized or broke or in legal trouble, I will provide as much help as I can. I did *not* make this clear to them, or I'd be up to my neck on made-up problems, but it was something I discussed with my immediate family and personally committed to. They can stew in their own mayhem, but when it gets dire, I will come back during the bad times. For you this might be if your dad took a serious turn for the worse, you'd arrange or provide the care.
I couldn't have managed without those three conditions, because I was in a pattern of self-blame and guilt from the family members involved. It was very hard, but it has gotten easier with time.
Some people will say just cut ties, forget him and move on. It didn't work for me, because it felt far too callous and permanent. I had to fiddle with it to find something I could live with morally/ethically. I think filial piety matters - we have obligations to family and family-like friends.
Also: I allow no access to my kids. My kids can choose to access these family members, and I'm careful (mostly - it's hard!) not to discuss them in front of them, but I absolutely control access. If they're making me miserable, what are they going to do to my kids? Your baby will not be harmed by no contact with him.
Sorry this is so long - it just rung a chord with me.
posted by viggorlijah at 8:40 AM on August 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Fortunately, your other family is giving you fairly minor guilt over your boundaries, and it sounds like you removing yourself will not have much impact on their direct relationships, ie: your dad won't out of spite cut them off too.
When I decided to cut contact with the toxic family members, I felt incredibly guilty. It helped to have had two people who knew the gory details and had themselves high moral standards give me the okay to go forward. People I didn't respect as much did the same, but it lacked emotional weight. Maybe find someone you respect ethically/morally and ask them?
The other thing that helped me was deciding that in certain emergencies and with certain changes, I would resume contact. I set out some steps - I think it was no contact except by mail, and you talk to a therapist and acknowledge that this stuff happened. They've tried lots of other things, expensive gifts etc, but none of these three steps have never been even attempted, so it's clear to me that they have chosen not to bridge the gap.
I also have committed to emergencies. If something dire happens, and they need me, I will be there. If they're hospitalized or broke or in legal trouble, I will provide as much help as I can. I did *not* make this clear to them, or I'd be up to my neck on made-up problems, but it was something I discussed with my immediate family and personally committed to. They can stew in their own mayhem, but when it gets dire, I will come back during the bad times. For you this might be if your dad took a serious turn for the worse, you'd arrange or provide the care.
I couldn't have managed without those three conditions, because I was in a pattern of self-blame and guilt from the family members involved. It was very hard, but it has gotten easier with time.
Some people will say just cut ties, forget him and move on. It didn't work for me, because it felt far too callous and permanent. I had to fiddle with it to find something I could live with morally/ethically. I think filial piety matters - we have obligations to family and family-like friends.
Also: I allow no access to my kids. My kids can choose to access these family members, and I'm careful (mostly - it's hard!) not to discuss them in front of them, but I absolutely control access. If they're making me miserable, what are they going to do to my kids? Your baby will not be harmed by no contact with him.
Sorry this is so long - it just rung a chord with me.
posted by viggorlijah at 8:40 AM on August 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Holy CRAP thank you dances, you reminded me I forgot something major. About a year and a half ago, he had another psychotic break. He's had maybe 5 in my lifetime. With this one, he was coherent enough to leave work (where it happened, he was literally ready to kill his boss) and go straight to the Veterans Counseling Center. He always starts sessions, then feels better, and then has a break and starts over. The cycle persists. Anyway, after this one, they threw him on some new meds and got him on a 2x a week counseling schedule. None of us has ever been invited to come, but he tells us sometimes what they say/do/whatever. Since this started, the vehemence of his asshole-ish-ness has reached new heights. He swears that his counselor is encouraging him to "speak his mind" and "not be ignored", etc. I don't want these things for him either---however it's like his filter has been removed. Profanity, epithets, and it's like he's trying now to show me what a real "toughguy" dad is like, when 15 years ago he hated that culture.
I point this out because he is in treatment for whatever is going on in there---but I know nothing about it. I swear I'll stop threadsitting now. Your insight is very welcome, Dances. Thank you.
posted by TomMelee at 8:43 AM on August 11, 2011
I point this out because he is in treatment for whatever is going on in there---but I know nothing about it. I swear I'll stop threadsitting now. Your insight is very welcome, Dances. Thank you.
posted by TomMelee at 8:43 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: If your mother had any money left, I would ask you to urge her to cut off all his access to her money and just give him an allowance. If she wouldn't follow through on that I would suggest convincing her that you need money for a business venture and then putting the money in an account where you can guard it for her. Since you say the money is now all gone, though, it's moot.
It also seems like his behaviour is uncontrolled consistent with his mental illness. If he can't or won't get treatment for it and no-one else will make him, you can't either. I guess it might be worth finding out what psychiatric services are available where he lives, but you make him sound like a lost cause.
Really, you've set boundaries and he hasn't respected them and the hard part now is going to be enforcing them. That's always the hard part. Even the seemingly minor stuff like smoking: you're not being some precious hipster afraid that the smoky smell will ruin his enjoyment of the organic gluten-free cookie he was saving for lunch. The smoke does your family's health in. And yet, there he is, smoking away when he seemingly agreed with you that he wouldn't.
Therefore, you don't have to spend any time with him. Your family will probably hold that against you. There's nothing you can do about that.
I'm sorry.
posted by tel3path at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2011
It also seems like his behaviour is uncontrolled consistent with his mental illness. If he can't or won't get treatment for it and no-one else will make him, you can't either. I guess it might be worth finding out what psychiatric services are available where he lives, but you make him sound like a lost cause.
Really, you've set boundaries and he hasn't respected them and the hard part now is going to be enforcing them. That's always the hard part. Even the seemingly minor stuff like smoking: you're not being some precious hipster afraid that the smoky smell will ruin his enjoyment of the organic gluten-free cookie he was saving for lunch. The smoke does your family's health in. And yet, there he is, smoking away when he seemingly agreed with you that he wouldn't.
Therefore, you don't have to spend any time with him. Your family will probably hold that against you. There's nothing you can do about that.
I'm sorry.
posted by tel3path at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: It sounds you have done pretty well setting boundaries with your father and should continue on that same path. However, you may need to work on the boundaries you set with your mother and brother. If they refuse to stop enabling his behavior, you end up doing it indirectly by enabling them. For example, you say no to spending the night and you become the bad guy. It may be time to have a(nother) talk with each of them about what you are and are not willing to do with/for your father. Make it clear you feel it is unfair for them to put pressure on you about him.
While you are asking them to stay out of your relationship with him, do what you can to stay out of their relationships with him as well. It is hard when they try to put you in the middle, but the best thing you can do is let them make their own mistakes and get hurt and then be there for them (emotionally) in the end.
There is absolutely no way she will pursue him for anything, and honestly it would be best for her---I’m just not OK with him leaving her in a financial lurch.
That is her choice. Again, be there for her but let her make her own decisions.
posted by soelo at 8:54 AM on August 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
While you are asking them to stay out of your relationship with him, do what you can to stay out of their relationships with him as well. It is hard when they try to put you in the middle, but the best thing you can do is let them make their own mistakes and get hurt and then be there for them (emotionally) in the end.
There is absolutely no way she will pursue him for anything, and honestly it would be best for her---I’m just not OK with him leaving her in a financial lurch.
That is her choice. Again, be there for her but let her make her own decisions.
posted by soelo at 8:54 AM on August 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Your description of your dad reminds me a lot of me. I have chronic PTSD. There have been times when I managed it well, and times when I didn't manage it at all. The effect is one of transience -- can't stick to anything, can't stay with anything, can't finish a damn thing. It has had, and continues to have, negative consequences both for me and for the people I love.
Sometimes I think about leaving just so I won't be a burden on them. Not because I don't love them, but because in this fucked up way I do love them and I want better for them than I can possibly provide and because I don't believe in myself and because I am tired of hurting people I love, and tired of disappointing them.
It's poor logic, but it's the kind of rationalizing you do when you're in a very low sad lonely place. A place of giving up. When you're not doing your PT, when your sole coping mechanism is distraction, when you have no prospects other than a monthly check from the government that would be maybe just enough to get by in Arkansas, going away and living in your private hell can appear to be the best option for everyone.
Although I'm not defending your dad's behaviors, I do think it might help if you could put yourself in his shoes a little bit. Try to understand where he's coming from.
You said your dad was diagnosed with PTSD in 1979. Has he been in therapy? Is he in therapy now? Would he be open to seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist? If he's already in individual therapy, would you/he be open to family therapy? How about you? Have you seen a therapist about the negative effects your dad's behaviors have had on your life? I think that, in the long run, the most ideal outcome of this situation would be that everyone gets a therapist.
As for the week your mom is out of town, personally I would probably try to visit with your dad at least twice but not stay the night. Can you frame it as a compromise? "I cannot stay with you overnight, as I've got a family and other obligations, like being around for my son in the middle of the night. But I can come and take you out to lunch one day while Mom is gone, and then on another day I can come over and we can play cards." Or whatever. Would you be up for that, emotionally? Like, able to stand being around your dad for a few hours on a couple of days?
If not, again, please consider seeing a therapist to sort out the anger and resentment you've got going on. They're perfectly natural, normal emotions and appropriate reactions to the situation you're in, but they need an outlet and believe me, it's really awesome to have someone to talk to about these things. In the long term, therapy would help you create boundaries with your dad, help you form a plan about how to behave towards him, help you understand where he's coming from, help you find a place to put the anger about his past behaviors and his chronic behaviors.
((hugs, for you deserve them))
posted by brina at 8:56 AM on August 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I think about leaving just so I won't be a burden on them. Not because I don't love them, but because in this fucked up way I do love them and I want better for them than I can possibly provide and because I don't believe in myself and because I am tired of hurting people I love, and tired of disappointing them.
It's poor logic, but it's the kind of rationalizing you do when you're in a very low sad lonely place. A place of giving up. When you're not doing your PT, when your sole coping mechanism is distraction, when you have no prospects other than a monthly check from the government that would be maybe just enough to get by in Arkansas, going away and living in your private hell can appear to be the best option for everyone.
Although I'm not defending your dad's behaviors, I do think it might help if you could put yourself in his shoes a little bit. Try to understand where he's coming from.
You said your dad was diagnosed with PTSD in 1979. Has he been in therapy? Is he in therapy now? Would he be open to seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist? If he's already in individual therapy, would you/he be open to family therapy? How about you? Have you seen a therapist about the negative effects your dad's behaviors have had on your life? I think that, in the long run, the most ideal outcome of this situation would be that everyone gets a therapist.
As for the week your mom is out of town, personally I would probably try to visit with your dad at least twice but not stay the night. Can you frame it as a compromise? "I cannot stay with you overnight, as I've got a family and other obligations, like being around for my son in the middle of the night. But I can come and take you out to lunch one day while Mom is gone, and then on another day I can come over and we can play cards." Or whatever. Would you be up for that, emotionally? Like, able to stand being around your dad for a few hours on a couple of days?
If not, again, please consider seeing a therapist to sort out the anger and resentment you've got going on. They're perfectly natural, normal emotions and appropriate reactions to the situation you're in, but they need an outlet and believe me, it's really awesome to have someone to talk to about these things. In the long term, therapy would help you create boundaries with your dad, help you form a plan about how to behave towards him, help you understand where he's coming from, help you find a place to put the anger about his past behaviors and his chronic behaviors.
((hugs, for you deserve them))
posted by brina at 8:56 AM on August 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The line in the sand is your newborn son and fiancé. Your mother, father, and siblings are adults who are 100% responsible for themselves.
Focus on your son. Let everything else go.
posted by jbenben at 9:02 AM on August 11, 2011
Focus on your son. Let everything else go.
posted by jbenben at 9:02 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: Like everyone else has expressed, I think you drew a line in the sand and have every right to stick to it. Just because your brother and mother want to make you feel guilty for not staying overnight with him doesn't make you in the wrong. He doesn't need the constant care, you do not need to spend the night. You have every right to say no.
Just as you said before, your mother and brother are classic enablers. They don't want to ruffle feathers so they'll just go along, being, at the least, used by this man for his own personal and financial gain. I don't blame you for standing up for yourself and your family and not tolerating his behavior. He sounds selfish, immature and manipulative. You do not need someone like this in your life, whether or not he happens to hold the title "father."
Good luck to you.
posted by Falwless at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2011
Just as you said before, your mother and brother are classic enablers. They don't want to ruffle feathers so they'll just go along, being, at the least, used by this man for his own personal and financial gain. I don't blame you for standing up for yourself and your family and not tolerating his behavior. He sounds selfish, immature and manipulative. You do not need someone like this in your life, whether or not he happens to hold the title "father."
Good luck to you.
posted by Falwless at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2011
I resent that he's literally drained my mom for 32 years and now has plans to leave her in the lurch with a house she can't afford
Yes, this fucking sucks of him, but your mom's an adult too. If she's a passive victim in all this, it's by her choice. She gets SOMEthing out of it or she wouldn't do it.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:47 AM on August 11, 2011
Yes, this fucking sucks of him, but your mom's an adult too. If she's a passive victim in all this, it's by her choice. She gets SOMEthing out of it or she wouldn't do it.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:47 AM on August 11, 2011
TomMelee: "Profanity, epithets, and it's like he's trying now to show me what a real "toughguy" dad is like, when 15 years ago he hated that culture."
Maybe turn that around - Tell him to go fuck himself, you fucking asshole, every chance you get.
posted by notsnot at 10:02 AM on August 11, 2011
Maybe turn that around - Tell him to go fuck himself, you fucking asshole, every chance you get.
posted by notsnot at 10:02 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: jbenben is so right. about 9 months ago we had a similar experience as far as drawing a line in the sand with my mother-in-law, & though i feel awful that she & her son have zero contact, she knew the conditions & continually chose to breach the boundaries (pretty simple: don't smoke around our baby, don't expect us to bring her to your smoky house, & don't undermine our parenting b/c you don't agree with it (i.e. feeding the baby meat when we're vegetarians)). my husband ultimately said that our daughter & i are his primary family & he's responsible for doing right by THIS family, not by tolerating shitty behavior from the family he was born into.
posted by oh really at 10:17 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by oh really at 10:17 AM on August 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: To your main question: yes, you have every right in the world to stick to your boundaries and not go spend the night with your father. The idea of "what is the right thing to do" is a little problematic because there's so much complexity to it - if you and your dad existed in a historyless vacuum then sure, it might be the "right" thing for you to stay with him if only because he's lonely ... but there's so much more to it than that, isn't there? There's the fact that doing this would reinforce his sense that he has the right to expect this of you, and therefore can continue doing whatever it takes to coerce you into doing what he wants. There's the fact that spending the night with him will take you away from your own family, who have at least as much if not more "right" to your time and care. There's the fact that he hasn't shown signs of respecting your needs and boundaries. And there's the fact that it sounds like you already more or less know what you should do, but need confirmation that not staying overnight with your dad is okay. For whatever it's worth, I think your decision is absolutely the right one.
And now to something you didn't explicitly ask about: reading your question, I hope that you will look for ways to not just set boundaries, but lovingly yet actively detach from your father, and perhaps even your mother and brother if they are pressuring you to be more involved with your father than feels okay to you. I say this as the daughter of a PTSD-suffering, Vietnam vet father myself. Like you, my dad was a good (no, wonderful) dad while I was growing up ... and I think in many ways that makes it even more difficult and emotionally horrible to set boundaries in the new reality you're facing as an adult. In my case, things eventually got too scary and awful for my mom to stay with him, so she left him ... but they still kept in contact, and he would every now and again try to contact me or my sister, too. My mom and sister both allowed him back into their lives despite the fact that he hadn't addressed the things that made his behavior so toxic - and I let that consume me. I worked hard at establishing my own boundaries by refusing to speak with him, but I couldn't stop focusing on the harm I felt my dad was doing to my mom and sis because they continued letting him into their lives. I kept spinning my wheels, needing to make the situation change, feeling like I was the only clear-sighted one and that my mom and sister were being harmed in ways that I should somehow be helping to prevent ... but of course they were adults, too, and even if I felt my "absolutely stick to my no-contact rule" way was the only right way to handle my dad, it obviously wasn't what they felt was right for them and there was nothing I could do about that.
All of this came to a head about 6 years ago now when my dad died, but looking back on it now I feel like I would have been so much better off if I'd just acted on what was right for me, and accepted that everyone else was doing the same. I would have spared myseful so much emotional turmoil if I could have just acknowledged that even though I felt that certain boundaries were absolutely right and necessary, that other people felt differently and that that was okay, even if it felt wrong to me ... Focusing on the ways my dad mistreated other people I loved only meant I was myself letting him "breach" those mental and emotional walls I was trying to build - and reading your question and follow-ups, I suspect you are going through the same thing.
Do what is right for you and deliberately tell yourself that other people have the right to do the same, even if that means they let your dad do things that you wouldn't - it feels so much better that way, and is so much more freeing in the long run. I hope things work out okay for you in this situation; if an empathetic ear would help please feel free to memail me.
posted by DingoMutt at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2011
And now to something you didn't explicitly ask about: reading your question, I hope that you will look for ways to not just set boundaries, but lovingly yet actively detach from your father, and perhaps even your mother and brother if they are pressuring you to be more involved with your father than feels okay to you. I say this as the daughter of a PTSD-suffering, Vietnam vet father myself. Like you, my dad was a good (no, wonderful) dad while I was growing up ... and I think in many ways that makes it even more difficult and emotionally horrible to set boundaries in the new reality you're facing as an adult. In my case, things eventually got too scary and awful for my mom to stay with him, so she left him ... but they still kept in contact, and he would every now and again try to contact me or my sister, too. My mom and sister both allowed him back into their lives despite the fact that he hadn't addressed the things that made his behavior so toxic - and I let that consume me. I worked hard at establishing my own boundaries by refusing to speak with him, but I couldn't stop focusing on the harm I felt my dad was doing to my mom and sis because they continued letting him into their lives. I kept spinning my wheels, needing to make the situation change, feeling like I was the only clear-sighted one and that my mom and sister were being harmed in ways that I should somehow be helping to prevent ... but of course they were adults, too, and even if I felt my "absolutely stick to my no-contact rule" way was the only right way to handle my dad, it obviously wasn't what they felt was right for them and there was nothing I could do about that.
All of this came to a head about 6 years ago now when my dad died, but looking back on it now I feel like I would have been so much better off if I'd just acted on what was right for me, and accepted that everyone else was doing the same. I would have spared myseful so much emotional turmoil if I could have just acknowledged that even though I felt that certain boundaries were absolutely right and necessary, that other people felt differently and that that was okay, even if it felt wrong to me ... Focusing on the ways my dad mistreated other people I loved only meant I was myself letting him "breach" those mental and emotional walls I was trying to build - and reading your question and follow-ups, I suspect you are going through the same thing.
Do what is right for you and deliberately tell yourself that other people have the right to do the same, even if that means they let your dad do things that you wouldn't - it feels so much better that way, and is so much more freeing in the long run. I hope things work out okay for you in this situation; if an empathetic ear would help please feel free to memail me.
posted by DingoMutt at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2011
Response by poster: Man, ya'll are deep. Thanks. I'll address you here, like this--hope that's OK.
--tel3path
You're right, we've all been trying to convince her to stop bleeding money for years. She's passive, he's aggressive, I think that's how these relationships work, isn't it? I don't necessarily want to cut off all contact, however honestly I think that's how it's going to end up when I don't give him what he wants or when he leaves.
--soelo
You're right too. I need to tell them to stop making me be the bad guy. My mom just gets mad and snappy, but she kind of won't step up to the plate. FWIW, he's not my brothers dad---he and his father were estranged for some time and then his dad died unexpectedly a couple years ago, and I think he's overly sad about that. My brother is close to being a hermit, he's 43 and lives alone in a sad little world. He's a great guy, but I think his dad weighs on him and that's why he lets my dad get away with more. Honestly, my dad is so overbearing that most folks just let him prattle on---and in the rare case he meets a woman (god forbid, she's automatically labeled an Amazon bitch) or a man (usually bigger, strong, and ex military) who won't listen to it---he automatically hates them and they're an idiot. The challenge is identifying what's illness and what's asshole and figuring out if there's any remediation for either.
--brina
Yes, he's in therapy---see my above post. I dunno if I posted it anonymously or not, but a couple years ago I kind of cut one of my best friends out of my life because his BPD had gotten out of control and he was off meds and unreliable. I blew him off one day and the three days later he committed suicide. While I don't think it's my fault, it's my stumbling block with my dad---when I was younger I was his entire life, he was consumed by me. I wouldn't put it past him to take drastic measures, and while it wouldn't be my fault---it doesn't feel good either. FWIW, we've discussed family counseling and he has no interest. It's a power thing. If he's not in control, he won't do it. Period.
-- jbenben
This is pretty much the angle I've been taking. He is not amused, but I don't especially care.
--MegMurry
Thank you, I replied.
--Falwless
Nice name, btw. Thank you for the support, I believe you are correct.
-- small_ruminant
Yes, but no. She was never abused, but ... it's not that black and white. She's an adult and I'd never dain to make a decision for her, however I don't really feel that it's out of place to be frustrated with him for continuing to take advantage of her.
--notsnot
I've considered that approach, but what works better for me is to fluster him with professional curtness and honesty. It is amusing, though.
--ohreally
I have basically said this much to him, which is why I believe I wasn't initially asked by anyone to spend the night. I think he thinks I'm overprotective and insular and whatever else, but somewhere in there he respects that I, like him when I was young, am just as much of a gorilla when it comes to my son and my family as he ever was--if not a little quieter.
--DingoMutt
Thank you for sharing. It means a lot. As I think about it, I'm really already pretty detached from him, and I think part of this ongoing feud is because he *knows* it and *knows* it's mostly his fault but *cannot* possibly admit that or address it with me, because it would be weak. I feel like he is going to die here soon, and while I won't be one of those fucked-up-emo-guys about it, I really won't be happy knowing things went unsaid. That's why, in the end, I try to SAY what I feel, I am brutally honest at all times. I need to ruminate more on what you've said, but thanks again.
posted by TomMelee at 11:32 AM on August 11, 2011
--tel3path
You're right, we've all been trying to convince her to stop bleeding money for years. She's passive, he's aggressive, I think that's how these relationships work, isn't it? I don't necessarily want to cut off all contact, however honestly I think that's how it's going to end up when I don't give him what he wants or when he leaves.
--soelo
You're right too. I need to tell them to stop making me be the bad guy. My mom just gets mad and snappy, but she kind of won't step up to the plate. FWIW, he's not my brothers dad---he and his father were estranged for some time and then his dad died unexpectedly a couple years ago, and I think he's overly sad about that. My brother is close to being a hermit, he's 43 and lives alone in a sad little world. He's a great guy, but I think his dad weighs on him and that's why he lets my dad get away with more. Honestly, my dad is so overbearing that most folks just let him prattle on---and in the rare case he meets a woman (god forbid, she's automatically labeled an Amazon bitch) or a man (usually bigger, strong, and ex military) who won't listen to it---he automatically hates them and they're an idiot. The challenge is identifying what's illness and what's asshole and figuring out if there's any remediation for either.
--brina
Yes, he's in therapy---see my above post. I dunno if I posted it anonymously or not, but a couple years ago I kind of cut one of my best friends out of my life because his BPD had gotten out of control and he was off meds and unreliable. I blew him off one day and the three days later he committed suicide. While I don't think it's my fault, it's my stumbling block with my dad---when I was younger I was his entire life, he was consumed by me. I wouldn't put it past him to take drastic measures, and while it wouldn't be my fault---it doesn't feel good either. FWIW, we've discussed family counseling and he has no interest. It's a power thing. If he's not in control, he won't do it. Period.
-- jbenben
This is pretty much the angle I've been taking. He is not amused, but I don't especially care.
--MegMurry
Thank you, I replied.
--Falwless
Nice name, btw. Thank you for the support, I believe you are correct.
-- small_ruminant
Yes, but no. She was never abused, but ... it's not that black and white. She's an adult and I'd never dain to make a decision for her, however I don't really feel that it's out of place to be frustrated with him for continuing to take advantage of her.
--notsnot
I've considered that approach, but what works better for me is to fluster him with professional curtness and honesty. It is amusing, though.
--ohreally
I have basically said this much to him, which is why I believe I wasn't initially asked by anyone to spend the night. I think he thinks I'm overprotective and insular and whatever else, but somewhere in there he respects that I, like him when I was young, am just as much of a gorilla when it comes to my son and my family as he ever was--if not a little quieter.
--DingoMutt
Thank you for sharing. It means a lot. As I think about it, I'm really already pretty detached from him, and I think part of this ongoing feud is because he *knows* it and *knows* it's mostly his fault but *cannot* possibly admit that or address it with me, because it would be weak. I feel like he is going to die here soon, and while I won't be one of those fucked-up-emo-guys about it, I really won't be happy knowing things went unsaid. That's why, in the end, I try to SAY what I feel, I am brutally honest at all times. I need to ruminate more on what you've said, but thanks again.
posted by TomMelee at 11:32 AM on August 11, 2011
Best answer: You really believe him when he says he's going to leave your mom for Arkansas? What he's doing is control and your mom is taking the brunt. You don't need to, you have a life and a child that really doesn't need a grandfather like this. It would probably be in your best interest to get her away from him and let her retire in peace. Good luck with that, however.
posted by ptm at 5:48 PM on August 11, 2011
posted by ptm at 5:48 PM on August 11, 2011
Response by poster: Well, so, to close this thing up I'll tell ya how last night went.
I went to his house and went in, he had been home alone for maybe 6 hours or so. His words "it's good to see you son. It's good to see SOMEBODY."
So I said "Well, I had some time before my soccer game, just thought I'd stop by and see if there there was anything I could for ya."
"Well, I'm waiting for your brother to get here. I've been calling him all day and he won't answer his phone. He said the other day he'd be here this evening, so I'm waiting on him to get here to make dinner."
Me: "Why do you need him here?"
Him: "In case I fall the f*** down!"
Me: "Well, I'm pretty sure he's not coming."
Him: "He's not coming? Why not?"
Me: "We talked on Tuesday and he asked why I wasn't coming, I said I wasn't available and that I didn't think either of us needed to stay over."
etc. Anyway, unbenounced to me, I guess my brother had actually committed to at least stopping by last night, and then after we'd talked he just disappeared into the ether to let me pick the fight. SUPER.
Anyway, so I feed and walk the dog, and when I come back in I say "Is there anything else I can do before I go?"
"No."
"Ok, I'm in town for soccer until about 9. You want me to stop by or call before I head home?"
"No."
"All right."
"I'll just f*#(%( call 911 if I need something I guess."
"Ok then, have a good night, talk to you later" and out the door I went. Cheers to me, right?
So now today he's messaging me telling me that he's "done" with my brother (again, not his son) and how lonely and depressed he is that he can't go anywhere. I just said it was fuel for his desire to get better and kick PT's ass, and that was about that.
I think I seriously need to have a conversation with my brother and mother. I somewhat did with my brother last night---but I think I need to be as direct with them as I am with my father.
Thanks again all, sorry for the length.
posted by TomMelee at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2011
I went to his house and went in, he had been home alone for maybe 6 hours or so. His words "it's good to see you son. It's good to see SOMEBODY."
So I said "Well, I had some time before my soccer game, just thought I'd stop by and see if there there was anything I could for ya."
"Well, I'm waiting for your brother to get here. I've been calling him all day and he won't answer his phone. He said the other day he'd be here this evening, so I'm waiting on him to get here to make dinner."
Me: "Why do you need him here?"
Him: "In case I fall the f*** down!"
Me: "Well, I'm pretty sure he's not coming."
Him: "He's not coming? Why not?"
Me: "We talked on Tuesday and he asked why I wasn't coming, I said I wasn't available and that I didn't think either of us needed to stay over."
etc. Anyway, unbenounced to me, I guess my brother had actually committed to at least stopping by last night, and then after we'd talked he just disappeared into the ether to let me pick the fight. SUPER.
Anyway, so I feed and walk the dog, and when I come back in I say "Is there anything else I can do before I go?"
"No."
"Ok, I'm in town for soccer until about 9. You want me to stop by or call before I head home?"
"No."
"All right."
"I'll just f*#(%( call 911 if I need something I guess."
"Ok then, have a good night, talk to you later" and out the door I went. Cheers to me, right?
So now today he's messaging me telling me that he's "done" with my brother (again, not his son) and how lonely and depressed he is that he can't go anywhere. I just said it was fuel for his desire to get better and kick PT's ass, and that was about that.
I think I seriously need to have a conversation with my brother and mother. I somewhat did with my brother last night---but I think I need to be as direct with them as I am with my father.
Thanks again all, sorry for the length.
posted by TomMelee at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2011
I go to Al-anon meetings and they are awesome for getting in-person support for dealing with people like your dad. It is GREAT to have people who really get what a drain it is, and don't say "but he's your dad!" or some such BS. They also don't say, "Just cut him off!"
"Just" cutting off can be drama and draining in itself. It is HARD for me to cut off family members and loved ones even when they're blatantly toxic. Not cutting off, of course, is long-term harmful too. So for me, figuring out how to balance what makes my life work with what I can give them has been invaluable. Honestly, they get the leftovers.
When I started, I didn't think there would be any leftovers- my life is pretty full, and yours is even more so, what with having children. And, actually, it has involved taking a break from people- for months or years sometimes, though usually weeks will do it. Taking a break feels very different from Never Speaking Again. I guess it might be kinder to them, but mostly it's kinder to me, because that kind of drama stresses me out.
In the end, there ARE leftovers to give- more than I expected- and now I don't feel like it's draining energy out of me or taking away from my priorities to when I do give them time and energy.
Anyway, YMMV on this, but you might try Al-anon or some other similar group because having real live people for support and perspective has been life-changing. I am friends with people I thought I was going to have to sever all ties with and I actually enjoy their company! If that isn't a miracle, I don't know what is.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:55 AM on August 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Just" cutting off can be drama and draining in itself. It is HARD for me to cut off family members and loved ones even when they're blatantly toxic. Not cutting off, of course, is long-term harmful too. So for me, figuring out how to balance what makes my life work with what I can give them has been invaluable. Honestly, they get the leftovers.
When I started, I didn't think there would be any leftovers- my life is pretty full, and yours is even more so, what with having children. And, actually, it has involved taking a break from people- for months or years sometimes, though usually weeks will do it. Taking a break feels very different from Never Speaking Again. I guess it might be kinder to them, but mostly it's kinder to me, because that kind of drama stresses me out.
In the end, there ARE leftovers to give- more than I expected- and now I don't feel like it's draining energy out of me or taking away from my priorities to when I do give them time and energy.
Anyway, YMMV on this, but you might try Al-anon or some other similar group because having real live people for support and perspective has been life-changing. I am friends with people I thought I was going to have to sever all ties with and I actually enjoy their company! If that isn't a miracle, I don't know what is.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:55 AM on August 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
TomMelee, I'm sorry your dad is such an asshole. Seriously, after all you've written about these interactions, that's the only conclusion I can come to. I'm sorry he behaves so badly, and I'm sorry it's negatively affecting you.
I think small_ruminant's suggestion that you check out a support group (maybe through NAMI?) is great, and maybe you could also see if your mom and brother would want to go with you.
(((more hugs)))
posted by brina at 1:48 PM on August 12, 2011
I think small_ruminant's suggestion that you check out a support group (maybe through NAMI?) is great, and maybe you could also see if your mom and brother would want to go with you.
(((more hugs)))
posted by brina at 1:48 PM on August 12, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by TomMelee at 7:57 AM on August 11, 2011