Help me identify an obscure(?) British(?) poem.
August 9, 2011 9:45 AM Subscribe
Help me identify an obscure(?) British(?) poem.
I'm trying to track down a poem, probably from the nineteenth century, but it could be from much earlier. I have two lines:
Neither pure imagination nor history, but both, for Chaos, too,
is made of shattered worlds, and is the matrix of new ones.
(I'm not sure of the line break.)
An author I'm studying (Standish O'Grady in his History of Ireland (1881)) quotes it without documentation in a footnote. The poem appears to suggest the following to him:
a) the play of discourse and imagination
b) a kind of magical garden that can take on metaphorical significance
c) a line relating a traveler to a thinker. Here is the author's line that spawns the footnote:
"a land in which that ancient, not reputable traveler wanders perplexed"
The fact that he refers to "that" ancient traveler suggests to me that this poem was either generally well-known to reasonably educated people in the 1870's or that it's some kind of closed reference for friends.
I'm nervous that it might be an obvious reference, but I'm having no luck finding it. Any help much appreciated.
I'm trying to track down a poem, probably from the nineteenth century, but it could be from much earlier. I have two lines:
Neither pure imagination nor history, but both, for Chaos, too,
is made of shattered worlds, and is the matrix of new ones.
(I'm not sure of the line break.)
An author I'm studying (Standish O'Grady in his History of Ireland (1881)) quotes it without documentation in a footnote. The poem appears to suggest the following to him:
a) the play of discourse and imagination
b) a kind of magical garden that can take on metaphorical significance
c) a line relating a traveler to a thinker. Here is the author's line that spawns the footnote:
"a land in which that ancient, not reputable traveler wanders perplexed"
The fact that he refers to "that" ancient traveler suggests to me that this poem was either generally well-known to reasonably educated people in the 1870's or that it's some kind of closed reference for friends.
I'm nervous that it might be an obvious reference, but I'm having no luck finding it. Any help much appreciated.
(Here it is on Google Books)
Forgive me if sleep deprivation is responsible for my confusion here, but why do you think that's....yes, on preview, what EmpressCallipygos said.
posted by kmennie at 9:52 AM on August 9, 2011
Forgive me if sleep deprivation is responsible for my confusion here, but why do you think that's....yes, on preview, what EmpressCallipygos said.
posted by kmennie at 9:52 AM on August 9, 2011
Looking at the footnote, I think that misplaced punctuation may be causing some confusion: the semi-colon should be after the "both," not "Chaos." Then it becomes (the somewhat convoluted) prose sentence:
Neither pure imagination nor history, but both; for Chaos, too, is made of shattered worlds, and is the matrix of new ones.
posted by frobozz at 10:10 AM on August 9, 2011
Neither pure imagination nor history, but both; for Chaos, too, is made of shattered worlds, and is the matrix of new ones.
posted by frobozz at 10:10 AM on August 9, 2011
I'm with the Empress and kmennie, in that I don't see any indication that this is a quotation rather than a comment (or "discursive footnote," if you want a technical term).
posted by brianogilvie at 10:14 AM on August 9, 2011
posted by brianogilvie at 10:14 AM on August 9, 2011
That "ancient traveler" refers to Satan, wandering about in chaos after he's been thrown out of heaven. The poem quoted in the body of the text is from Milton's Paradise Lost, which O'Grady's readers would be more likely to be familiar with than we would. I think the fact that the traveler referred to is Satan isn't particularly relevant to the author; he is trying to evoke the scene that Satan was set in, the chaos.
posted by frobozz at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2011
posted by frobozz at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2011
Sorry to keep answering, but here is the part of Paradise Lost that's quoted from. "In a boggy Syrtis" begins about 4/5 of the way down.
posted by frobozz at 10:38 AM on August 9, 2011
posted by frobozz at 10:38 AM on August 9, 2011
Guessing from the context the topic is the blend of true fact and imagined stories in mythical history. The author uses Chaos as a metaphor for that mythical history.
Chaos, in Milton's poem, is a vast space between Hell and Earth. It's an emptiness but I think Milton also refers to it as a 'womb' at one point. New worlds arise out of Chaos and destroyed worlds, by implication disintegrate back into it.
So, you might have these shattered remains of old worlds floating around--as you might have true facts surviving in myths; and you also have new worlds arising out of the Chaos--as you might have the folk imagination spinning new stories that get added to the body of mythical history.
The footnote sounds cool as a poem. Sorry it's not. Maybe there should be a genre of poems generated by the misreading of footnotes :)
posted by Paquda at 10:52 AM on August 9, 2011
Chaos, in Milton's poem, is a vast space between Hell and Earth. It's an emptiness but I think Milton also refers to it as a 'womb' at one point. New worlds arise out of Chaos and destroyed worlds, by implication disintegrate back into it.
So, you might have these shattered remains of old worlds floating around--as you might have true facts surviving in myths; and you also have new worlds arising out of the Chaos--as you might have the folk imagination spinning new stories that get added to the body of mythical history.
The footnote sounds cool as a poem. Sorry it's not. Maybe there should be a genre of poems generated by the misreading of footnotes :)
posted by Paquda at 10:52 AM on August 9, 2011
Response by poster: That's all fascinating. Thanks, really, for the help. I think all together this is right on. I was nervous that the answer was more available than obscure.
I always thought he was quoting a poem, and it was probably as a result of a misreading through transcription years ago. (When I googled today, I just saw the book link and didn't think to double check.) There's clearly no line break in the original, though I think the footnote could still be a conscious allusion to something else in which some of this other imagery has been worked out. The approach to documentation overall doesn't give much guidance, though I think he would have indicated quotation more clearly.
He's definitely thinking of Milton. I know from his bio that Milton was a significant influence, though I know of only one or two places where he says so explicitly. This knowledge muddies the waters in very interesting ways.
Thanks again.
posted by Ozarkian at 12:58 PM on August 9, 2011
I always thought he was quoting a poem, and it was probably as a result of a misreading through transcription years ago. (When I googled today, I just saw the book link and didn't think to double check.) There's clearly no line break in the original, though I think the footnote could still be a conscious allusion to something else in which some of this other imagery has been worked out. The approach to documentation overall doesn't give much guidance, though I think he would have indicated quotation more clearly.
He's definitely thinking of Milton. I know from his bio that Milton was a significant influence, though I know of only one or two places where he says so explicitly. This knowledge muddies the waters in very interesting ways.
Thanks again.
posted by Ozarkian at 12:58 PM on August 9, 2011
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What leads you to believe that O'Grady is quoting a poem rather than having written his own comment?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:50 AM on August 9, 2011