Question regarding an aggressive rescue dog that likes to bite...
August 1, 2011 12:58 PM Subscribe
I just adopted a rescue dog about a month ago, and after several biting incidents, I am trying to decide whether or not this behavior can be stopped.
As mentioned, I got a 2 yr old rescue dog, and I immediately fell in love with him. He is well-mannered indoors, loves to go running/creeking with me, etc. I did a lot of research before getting the dog, and made sure not to allow it to think it was the alpha dog (i.e., never let it go in/out first, make him walk next to me at all times, I fed him by hand a lot, etc). He listens to me, and never really tries to act out, so it seems that he respects me. He sits immediately, never tries to run out of the door before me, etc.
However, after a month, he has bit a few people: my 3-year old daughter (snarled and bit somewhat viciously), my friend who was just petting him through a car window, and me several times (twice when brushing, twice while playing with him while he was chewing on his bone, and vicious bites when I tried put my hand on his bowl while he was eating). According to the rescue shelter, he never had any problems with biting, and at first I tried to excuse his behavior by saying that he was just resource guarding, but it seems to have gone beyond that at this point.
My question really is: is this a behavior that can be stomped out completely given the appropriate training? I have tried all the methods I have read online, feeding him by hand, giving him a time out in a boring room, even pinning him to the ground after he does it to show dominance, but it has only been getting worse. It seems from most research that after an adult dog has reinforced the habit for so long, that you can only really teach him to think before he does it, but he will always have the instinct to do it. My girlfriend/roomate is very wary of him now, and I am trying to find any reason to keep him, but at this point I am afraid that he may not bite with training in certain situations, but I can't even guarantee that he won't bite a child if he gets loose. Any advice that you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.
As mentioned, I got a 2 yr old rescue dog, and I immediately fell in love with him. He is well-mannered indoors, loves to go running/creeking with me, etc. I did a lot of research before getting the dog, and made sure not to allow it to think it was the alpha dog (i.e., never let it go in/out first, make him walk next to me at all times, I fed him by hand a lot, etc). He listens to me, and never really tries to act out, so it seems that he respects me. He sits immediately, never tries to run out of the door before me, etc.
However, after a month, he has bit a few people: my 3-year old daughter (snarled and bit somewhat viciously), my friend who was just petting him through a car window, and me several times (twice when brushing, twice while playing with him while he was chewing on his bone, and vicious bites when I tried put my hand on his bowl while he was eating). According to the rescue shelter, he never had any problems with biting, and at first I tried to excuse his behavior by saying that he was just resource guarding, but it seems to have gone beyond that at this point.
My question really is: is this a behavior that can be stomped out completely given the appropriate training? I have tried all the methods I have read online, feeding him by hand, giving him a time out in a boring room, even pinning him to the ground after he does it to show dominance, but it has only been getting worse. It seems from most research that after an adult dog has reinforced the habit for so long, that you can only really teach him to think before he does it, but he will always have the instinct to do it. My girlfriend/roomate is very wary of him now, and I am trying to find any reason to keep him, but at this point I am afraid that he may not bite with training in certain situations, but I can't even guarantee that he won't bite a child if he gets loose. Any advice that you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Go to a trainer, please. They may be able to help you. I firmly believe that you can indeed train an adult dog out of most bad habits, but every dog is different. Working with someone on an ongoing basis will help you be able to track progress made and see if you can make measurable, reliable progress with your dog.
It is really going to take a commitment though. If you don't have the time, energy, or resources to put into the dog, you may want to go ahead and give him back to the shelter. I say this as someone who adopted a dog aggressive 5 y/o GSD and who could never quite get him to the point where I was comfortable with him around strange dogs. It was my failure, not the dog's.
posted by stormygrey at 1:07 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
It is really going to take a commitment though. If you don't have the time, energy, or resources to put into the dog, you may want to go ahead and give him back to the shelter. I say this as someone who adopted a dog aggressive 5 y/o GSD and who could never quite get him to the point where I was comfortable with him around strange dogs. It was my failure, not the dog's.
posted by stormygrey at 1:07 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
if it were just you in the house you could give it a shot, but you have a 3 year old daughter. You need to return this dog, unfortunately, before she gets a serious wound.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:08 PM on August 1, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:08 PM on August 1, 2011 [19 favorites]
I can't even guarantee that he won't bite a child if he gets loose
This dog has already bitten your 3-year-old daughter somewhat viciously: that would be a deal breaker for me, and I'm unsure why it isn't a deal breaker for you.
posted by rhapsodie at 1:09 PM on August 1, 2011 [23 favorites]
This dog has already bitten your 3-year-old daughter somewhat viciously: that would be a deal breaker for me, and I'm unsure why it isn't a deal breaker for you.
posted by rhapsodie at 1:09 PM on August 1, 2011 [23 favorites]
If my new dog viciously bit my 3-year-old, I would return him to the rescue shelter. I mean, I don't have kids, but if I did, I would chose their safety over that of a new pet.
However, I would like to delicately say that you don't sound in any way qualified to be training your dog with those dominance methods. I think most of that stuff is bullshit anyway, and the parts that aren't bullshit are either common sense, or only useful in the hands of someone intuitive like Cesar Millan.
From recent reading I've done, putting a dog in a time out as a punishment doesn't make much sense in terms of how dog minds work, nor does pinning him to the ground.
If you'd like to keep this dog, get a qualified trainer for him.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:09 PM on August 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
However, I would like to delicately say that you don't sound in any way qualified to be training your dog with those dominance methods. I think most of that stuff is bullshit anyway, and the parts that aren't bullshit are either common sense, or only useful in the hands of someone intuitive like Cesar Millan.
From recent reading I've done, putting a dog in a time out as a punishment doesn't make much sense in terms of how dog minds work, nor does pinning him to the ground.
If you'd like to keep this dog, get a qualified trainer for him.
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:09 PM on August 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
Yeah, what Squeak Attack said. Pinning your dog to the ground only works if you're like a ninth level Jedi. In fact, this dominance stuff might be making the situation a lot worse.
Please try a trainer who works with a positive reward system.
posted by hungrytiger at 1:13 PM on August 1, 2011
Please try a trainer who works with a positive reward system.
posted by hungrytiger at 1:13 PM on August 1, 2011
I'd definitely be choosing the kid over the dog. This dog would need serious serious time and energy investments to divest of the biting habits. And it wouldn't be guaranteed.
Back to the shelter.
posted by bilabial at 1:14 PM on August 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Back to the shelter.
posted by bilabial at 1:14 PM on August 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
This is a tough one. I have volunteered a lot of time with shelter animals and want each one to have every chance. However, you have a three-year old child and I'm not sure you're ever going to completely trust the dog (I probably wouldn't, not around kids). The dog will know this and the behavior will continue.
Although you may have signed something saying you would return him to the shelter, another option might be a breed rescue (if you can figure out one of the dominant breeds?), where they will try to train him in a completely new environment and/or place him in a home with experienced dog owners and no children.
Also, I am hesitant about your hopes that this was "just" resource guarding, as if that excused growling. It does not. Resource guarding is not acceptable in a family pet.
I commend the research you did, but it's often a crap shoot with a mixed breed. I would like to heartily recommend a lab or golden mix, a rescued greyhound, or some other creature that is obviously gentle around your child when you go to meet him/her.
posted by Glinn at 1:15 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Although you may have signed something saying you would return him to the shelter, another option might be a breed rescue (if you can figure out one of the dominant breeds?), where they will try to train him in a completely new environment and/or place him in a home with experienced dog owners and no children.
Also, I am hesitant about your hopes that this was "just" resource guarding, as if that excused growling. It does not. Resource guarding is not acceptable in a family pet.
I commend the research you did, but it's often a crap shoot with a mixed breed. I would like to heartily recommend a lab or golden mix, a rescued greyhound, or some other creature that is obviously gentle around your child when you go to meet him/her.
posted by Glinn at 1:15 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you stick your hand in a dog's bowl while it's eating and you get bitten, the problem is not the dog. Strangers reaching for a confined dog's head, also not the dog's fault.
But, this dog is a nervous dog and there is a toddler in the house, so this is a bad fit, full stop dog goes back. You may want to go get trained by a trainer before you bring another dog home - one that is kid-tested, please - because you're supposed to adjust your dominance to the situation AND use common sense to read situations and you're not doing either.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:19 PM on August 1, 2011 [12 favorites]
But, this dog is a nervous dog and there is a toddler in the house, so this is a bad fit, full stop dog goes back. You may want to go get trained by a trainer before you bring another dog home - one that is kid-tested, please - because you're supposed to adjust your dominance to the situation AND use common sense to read situations and you're not doing either.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:19 PM on August 1, 2011 [12 favorites]
Before we jump the gun, the OP should better define the biting.
Are the truly vicious bites, or vicious attempts?
Do you have a hard-time getting the dog to stop when he starts to bite?
What was the situation around the biting of your 3-year old?
Answers will shed more light on the actual situation, leading to better advice.
posted by Kruger5 at 1:27 PM on August 1, 2011
Are the truly vicious bites, or vicious attempts?
Do you have a hard-time getting the dog to stop when he starts to bite?
What was the situation around the biting of your 3-year old?
Answers will shed more light on the actual situation, leading to better advice.
posted by Kruger5 at 1:27 PM on August 1, 2011
The alpha dog approach is actually making this situation worse. You can train your dog not to bite anyone but hungrytiger is absolutely right -- the only training that will work is positive reinforcement. Please go to a professional trainer who advertises clicker training/positive reinforcement techniques. And meanwhile you need to keep your dog safely away from bite targets (without using Cesar Milan tactics.)
posted by bearwife at 1:33 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by bearwife at 1:33 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
From Ms. Vegetable:
Just so you know, this will make getting/keeping homeowners/condo/renters insurance difficult and/or expensive due to liability issues.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 1:35 PM on August 1, 2011
Just so you know, this will make getting/keeping homeowners/condo/renters insurance difficult and/or expensive due to liability issues.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 1:35 PM on August 1, 2011
Response by poster: That is a good point Kruger-
First off- supposedly, the rescue shelter "kid tests" the dogs and also does a temperament test as well, plus in the 6 months he was there, he never had a single biting incident, so I thought it would be safe. Furthermore, he is a full-bred lab- I tried my best to find a breed that doesn't tend to bite, so I thought that would be a safe bet....
Secondly- The definition of "biting" is part of why I hesitated after the situation with the 3-year old, he snarled/growled, and made a bite attempt but did not really leave a solid mark on her. He was playing with his bone, and she was reaching down to pet him, and that's when it occurred. I took his bone away, and only gave him toys when she wasnt around, and I can live with that with a dog...
He did leave a small mark when he bit while I was brushing him, and he also left a mark on my friend (did not bleed, but bruised) when he was petting him. However, the latest incident, I literally touched the bowl he was eating out of for a split second, and he bit me hard enough to bleed in a few places, and then continued to bite me 2-3 more times afterwards, and that is really when I became concerned. Even if he is resource guarding, this was way too aggressive of an incident to me...
I love this dog in all other cases, and I wanted to give him a chance, but my concern is that sure I can teach him not to bite if I move his bone, or move his bowl...but what about the situations I can't train for or anticipate? Im afraid that I can teach him not to bite under certain circumstances, but that there may be other situations in the future outside of the guidance I've given him.
posted by SharkLangasta at 1:37 PM on August 1, 2011
First off- supposedly, the rescue shelter "kid tests" the dogs and also does a temperament test as well, plus in the 6 months he was there, he never had a single biting incident, so I thought it would be safe. Furthermore, he is a full-bred lab- I tried my best to find a breed that doesn't tend to bite, so I thought that would be a safe bet....
Secondly- The definition of "biting" is part of why I hesitated after the situation with the 3-year old, he snarled/growled, and made a bite attempt but did not really leave a solid mark on her. He was playing with his bone, and she was reaching down to pet him, and that's when it occurred. I took his bone away, and only gave him toys when she wasnt around, and I can live with that with a dog...
He did leave a small mark when he bit while I was brushing him, and he also left a mark on my friend (did not bleed, but bruised) when he was petting him. However, the latest incident, I literally touched the bowl he was eating out of for a split second, and he bit me hard enough to bleed in a few places, and then continued to bite me 2-3 more times afterwards, and that is really when I became concerned. Even if he is resource guarding, this was way too aggressive of an incident to me...
I love this dog in all other cases, and I wanted to give him a chance, but my concern is that sure I can teach him not to bite if I move his bone, or move his bowl...but what about the situations I can't train for or anticipate? Im afraid that I can teach him not to bite under certain circumstances, but that there may be other situations in the future outside of the guidance I've given him.
posted by SharkLangasta at 1:37 PM on August 1, 2011
It might be possible to stop the behavior, but it's not for you to do. This dog is known to bite and has already bitten your daughter. A three year old can and will provoke a dog one way or another. Surrender him to the shelter and let someone better suited to training him take over.
posted by Saydur at 1:44 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Saydur at 1:44 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
my concern is that sure I can teach him not to bite if I move his bone, or move his bowl...but what about ...?
There is no way anyone here can answer this question except with a knee-jerk.
You need advice and help from a reputable professional trainer who has a good track record. Get on the phone today and find one. Waiting will make it worse. Incorrect or ineffective training will make it worse. Stop doing things that make it worse, and get help.
posted by fritley at 1:50 PM on August 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
There is no way anyone here can answer this question except with a knee-jerk.
You need advice and help from a reputable professional trainer who has a good track record. Get on the phone today and find one. Waiting will make it worse. Incorrect or ineffective training will make it worse. Stop doing things that make it worse, and get help.
posted by fritley at 1:50 PM on August 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
If you want to keep this dog, you need to get a professional trainer that specializes in aggression issues. If you don't have the time or money to do that, you should return the dog.
Right now, you have a 50+ pound aggressive carnivore at eye level with a 3 year old child. That is a very frightening situation. I know a couple of people with permanent scars on their faces from being attacked by dogs while they were toddlers. Is this dog really worth the risk?
posted by zug at 1:57 PM on August 1, 2011 [9 favorites]
Right now, you have a 50+ pound aggressive carnivore at eye level with a 3 year old child. That is a very frightening situation. I know a couple of people with permanent scars on their faces from being attacked by dogs while they were toddlers. Is this dog really worth the risk?
posted by zug at 1:57 PM on August 1, 2011 [9 favorites]
Well, the shelter was wrong. The dog is not kid-safe and the dog has a temperament problem. Full-bred or not, and as sweet as the dog is at most times, you must recognize that the dog bites not just children and adults, but more importantly, bites you and your family.
This does not mean you are a bad person and that you can never get another dog. But this particular dog is not child-safe, and thus is not working for you and your family.
Please deal with this quickly and directly, before something much worse happens to your child. You are endangering your child's welfare with this dog in the house.
posted by aabbbiee at 2:03 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
This does not mean you are a bad person and that you can never get another dog. But this particular dog is not child-safe, and thus is not working for you and your family.
Please deal with this quickly and directly, before something much worse happens to your child. You are endangering your child's welfare with this dog in the house.
posted by aabbbiee at 2:03 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
This's ridiculous. Parent up, and rehome the dog.
posted by kmennie at 2:04 PM on August 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by kmennie at 2:04 PM on August 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
First things first: stop with the dominance training immediately. It is probably making things worse. (It's also bunk, the canine equivalent of Dr. Phil psychology, and based on a long-discarded 19th century theory of canine pack dynamics using collections of individually captured male wolves from different regions, not a real family/clan.)
So it sounds like your dog is still feeling unsettled and vulnerable after the second major upheaval in six months time -- probably just when he was getting accustomed to the shelter. Assuming the shelter is being honest about there being no biting incidents during his time there, my guess would be that, in the right home environment and with the guidance of a good trainer, the dog's defensive behavior would abate. The problem is, a home with a 3-year-old will be hard to make that kind of home environment. Having a toddler means there's going to be a lot of floor-level activity and stimuli, and can stress out even the most well-behaved pooch.
I think the next step would be to set up a consultation with a (reputable) dog trainer and see if prepared to take the types of measures he'd deem necessary. It might be just too much of a disruption, and with a young child in the family, I don't think anyone would fault you for calling it quits.
posted by patnasty at 2:10 PM on August 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
So it sounds like your dog is still feeling unsettled and vulnerable after the second major upheaval in six months time -- probably just when he was getting accustomed to the shelter. Assuming the shelter is being honest about there being no biting incidents during his time there, my guess would be that, in the right home environment and with the guidance of a good trainer, the dog's defensive behavior would abate. The problem is, a home with a 3-year-old will be hard to make that kind of home environment. Having a toddler means there's going to be a lot of floor-level activity and stimuli, and can stress out even the most well-behaved pooch.
I think the next step would be to set up a consultation with a (reputable) dog trainer and see if prepared to take the types of measures he'd deem necessary. It might be just too much of a disruption, and with a young child in the family, I don't think anyone would fault you for calling it quits.
posted by patnasty at 2:10 PM on August 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Proper training and situational management can definitely help with behavioral issues, but (and this is a huge but when dealing with aggression) they are rarely perfect remedies. Mistakes happen, both on the part of the dog and the owner. It's important for you to consider the likelihood and ramifications of a 'mistake' before deciding to undertake this course. Given that the dog will probably live with you for a decade more, and that you will have a young child (and her friends) running around throughout its life, I would say that the likelihood is high. The ramifications could include serious injury, legal troubles, frightened friends and family, and so on. Is this a smart bet for you?
If the answer is yes, then you must start the process today, NOW.
If the answer is no, remember the following:
- It's not your fault that the dog has behavioral issues. It's likely that the dog was damaged in some way prior to arriving in your household.
- The fact that you took a chance on this dog, and are even considering rehabilitation, is commendable.
- The dog may live a happier life with an owner experienced in such cases.
- There are thousands of dogs that would make great pets, and would fit into your family perfectly, sitting in shelters right now. There are thousands more that are euthanized daily. Moving on could mean giving a home to another deserving animal.
Good luck!
posted by camneely at 2:45 PM on August 1, 2011
If the answer is yes, then you must start the process today, NOW.
If the answer is no, remember the following:
- It's not your fault that the dog has behavioral issues. It's likely that the dog was damaged in some way prior to arriving in your household.
- The fact that you took a chance on this dog, and are even considering rehabilitation, is commendable.
- The dog may live a happier life with an owner experienced in such cases.
- There are thousands of dogs that would make great pets, and would fit into your family perfectly, sitting in shelters right now. There are thousands more that are euthanized daily. Moving on could mean giving a home to another deserving animal.
Good luck!
posted by camneely at 2:45 PM on August 1, 2011
Get rid of the dog now.
There are many, many dogs that can successfully trained and placed in appropriate homes. I am certain with proper training, this dog could be one of them.
But your home is not an appropriate place for this pup.
And this is an incredibly unsafe situation for your child, period. In less than one unattended second, this dog could attack your child.
I'm sure you want to do right by the dog, but you will never forgive yourself if something terrible happens while you were in the process of training it.
posted by kinetic at 2:49 PM on August 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
There are many, many dogs that can successfully trained and placed in appropriate homes. I am certain with proper training, this dog could be one of them.
But your home is not an appropriate place for this pup.
And this is an incredibly unsafe situation for your child, period. In less than one unattended second, this dog could attack your child.
I'm sure you want to do right by the dog, but you will never forgive yourself if something terrible happens while you were in the process of training it.
posted by kinetic at 2:49 PM on August 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
This is nuts, there's no way that there is only one possible and preventable situation in which a dog with these issues would bite your child. She will do things to set him off over and over, you won't be able to predict them, and unless she's very lucky, she will be severely harmed sooner or later. Poor kid. Is she never going to have friends over either?
My family always had a two strikes and you're out (ie dead) policy with dogs, reasoning that a dog might panic once and snap, but twice was a pattern. I don't know if that's the best way to do things, but you have a dog that bit multiple people in one month, and bit you over and over in a single incident! Please take the dog back or have him put down before something worse happens, this is not a minor risk at all, and I don't think it's cool of you to keep exposing people to this dog.
posted by crabintheocean at 3:24 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
My family always had a two strikes and you're out (ie dead) policy with dogs, reasoning that a dog might panic once and snap, but twice was a pattern. I don't know if that's the best way to do things, but you have a dog that bit multiple people in one month, and bit you over and over in a single incident! Please take the dog back or have him put down before something worse happens, this is not a minor risk at all, and I don't think it's cool of you to keep exposing people to this dog.
posted by crabintheocean at 3:24 PM on August 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Kids mess with animals while they eat. That's one of the things kids do.
Dogs don't, as a general rule, appreciate that.
But that is no excuse for an animal to be allowed in a home after biting a child. You are teaching your child, by example, that her safety is not a priority. THAT is the pattern that worries me most about the situation you are describing.
Her safety (and yours) belong much much higher above a dog that you can describe as 'vicious' because she needs the tools and confidence to put her safety above the 'feelings' of potentially jerky boyfriends, bosses, and dogs.
You have a much bigger problem than a biting dog, and in addition to these seemingly subtle issues, you also have incredible liability issues if this dog bites or mauls anyone in the future.
posted by bilabial at 3:49 PM on August 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Dogs don't, as a general rule, appreciate that.
But that is no excuse for an animal to be allowed in a home after biting a child. You are teaching your child, by example, that her safety is not a priority. THAT is the pattern that worries me most about the situation you are describing.
Her safety (and yours) belong much much higher above a dog that you can describe as 'vicious' because she needs the tools and confidence to put her safety above the 'feelings' of potentially jerky boyfriends, bosses, and dogs.
You have a much bigger problem than a biting dog, and in addition to these seemingly subtle issues, you also have incredible liability issues if this dog bites or mauls anyone in the future.
posted by bilabial at 3:49 PM on August 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
According to the rescue shelter, he never had any problems with biting,
Sadly, I have personally experienced more than one shelter that will basically say anything to get people to adopt their animals. Lying about ages, temperaments, breeds, etc. They probably have no idea whether the dog was a biter, or are actively lying about it.
Regardless, if a dog ever bites hard enough to draw any blood, you have a really serious problem. Take it back, and get a new one from a shelter that won't bullshit you.
posted by smoke at 3:50 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sadly, I have personally experienced more than one shelter that will basically say anything to get people to adopt their animals. Lying about ages, temperaments, breeds, etc. They probably have no idea whether the dog was a biter, or are actively lying about it.
Regardless, if a dog ever bites hard enough to draw any blood, you have a really serious problem. Take it back, and get a new one from a shelter that won't bullshit you.
posted by smoke at 3:50 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
We adopted a dog from a family and he had no problems the first month either. But it seemed as if just about the time we really loved him, he began to do many of the same kinds of things. It was a different kind of dog experience than we hoped for but we found it satisfying once we became more knowledgeable. Of course we had no kids and enough money to board him because we couldn't take him new places around people. He did not actually bite anyone other than us but it was only because of ten years of vigilance. And a talented and understanding kennel where he could go where he was actually kind of loved by the staff. During that time, we became grandparents and the grandkids never met him because he was always boarded. I agree you are not obligated to keep him but I do think that when you send him back, he will likely be killed. So, if there is any way you can find someone who was foster him and find a home, that would save his life.
posted by Prayless at 4:15 PM on August 1, 2011
posted by Prayless at 4:15 PM on August 1, 2011
I don't think the shelter was lying per se -- they reported their experiences with the dog in their circumstances, which cannot possibly account for all the variables in the world.
In my mind, you and your 3 yr old should absolutely be able to reach into a dog's bowl while they're eating. And dogs who attack people over toys don't get toys, period.
While I don't believe that pinning a dog is beneficial, most of the other stuff you've is along the line of what I would recommend (hand feeding, trading treats for toys, etc).
I hate to say it, but this situation doesn't sound promising for this dog. It's a sad fact, but some dogs just aren't adoptable. If there wasn't a child involved, you could try harder . . . (and I do NOT judge your parenting for trying this hard!) . . . but yeah, I think it's time to send him back.
posted by MeiraV at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2011
In my mind, you and your 3 yr old should absolutely be able to reach into a dog's bowl while they're eating. And dogs who attack people over toys don't get toys, period.
While I don't believe that pinning a dog is beneficial, most of the other stuff you've is along the line of what I would recommend (hand feeding, trading treats for toys, etc).
I hate to say it, but this situation doesn't sound promising for this dog. It's a sad fact, but some dogs just aren't adoptable. If there wasn't a child involved, you could try harder . . . (and I do NOT judge your parenting for trying this hard!) . . . but yeah, I think it's time to send him back.
posted by MeiraV at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2011
This is not your fault, but it is now your responsibility. If you keep the dog, you need to get in with a private trainer experienced with aggressive dogs. Like, tomorrow.
If you don't keep the dog, you need to return it to the shelter. Do not rehome the dog. You have a known biter, and to pass that on to someone else is irresponsible at the very least. Someone upthread said to give the dog to a breed rescue; I can't imagine an ethical, well run lab rescue is going to take a dog with a history of multiple bites.
However, you might be able to get really good info by talking to a the lab rescue groups nearest to you. They are likely to have lots of info regarding local trainers, etc.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:28 PM on August 1, 2011
If you don't keep the dog, you need to return it to the shelter. Do not rehome the dog. You have a known biter, and to pass that on to someone else is irresponsible at the very least. Someone upthread said to give the dog to a breed rescue; I can't imagine an ethical, well run lab rescue is going to take a dog with a history of multiple bites.
However, you might be able to get really good info by talking to a the lab rescue groups nearest to you. They are likely to have lots of info regarding local trainers, etc.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:28 PM on August 1, 2011
Stop rolling the dog, pretending you're a pack leader (he knows you are a human), and "time outs" in a separate room rarely work even for a kid. None of those are safe or effective training methods, and are definitely making things worse.
It is OK to admit that you're in over your head. You are not failing this dog. You are making a new decision in light of new information.
I foster and train difficult dogs, and it is a long, hard, and forever-uncertain path. If you are not equipped (or prepared to devote yourself to getting equipped with a proper behaviorist and trainer) then that path will lead to nowhere fast. Better to have the short heartbreak now, instead of a big heartbreak later.
I'm sorry, I know it's hard.
posted by barnone at 4:36 PM on August 1, 2011
It is OK to admit that you're in over your head. You are not failing this dog. You are making a new decision in light of new information.
I foster and train difficult dogs, and it is a long, hard, and forever-uncertain path. If you are not equipped (or prepared to devote yourself to getting equipped with a proper behaviorist and trainer) then that path will lead to nowhere fast. Better to have the short heartbreak now, instead of a big heartbreak later.
I'm sorry, I know it's hard.
posted by barnone at 4:36 PM on August 1, 2011
Based on your updates: his resource guarding is getting stronger because it is "working" - i.e. he is getting reinforced for guarding his food and treats. He has not been successfully trained out of that behavior. Resource guarding CAN be fixed but right now your responses/training are not working.
The next bite could be worse. You cannot leave your kid with the dog, even for a second.
posted by barnone at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2011
The next bite could be worse. You cannot leave your kid with the dog, even for a second.
posted by barnone at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2011
He was playing with his bone, and she was reaching down to pet him, and that's when it occurred. I took his bone away, and only gave him toys when she wasnt around, and I can live with that with a dog...
You need to get help from a professional trainer. The situation above just shows your dog that when your daughter is around him, his bone gets taken away. That's just more reason for him to be on the defensive.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:33 PM on August 1, 2011
You need to get help from a professional trainer. The situation above just shows your dog that when your daughter is around him, his bone gets taken away. That's just more reason for him to be on the defensive.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:33 PM on August 1, 2011
That sucks, but listen to what people are saying. A biter... with a kid in the house... this is not your failure, it's just a bad match.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 6:31 PM on August 1, 2011
posted by Short Attention Sp at 6:31 PM on August 1, 2011
I had a roommate whose right arm was pulled off by the family dog when she was a toddler.
Yes, I said off. She had one arm. Not a happy lady, by the way.
Please just give the dog back right now. Please.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:42 PM on August 1, 2011
Yes, I said off. She had one arm. Not a happy lady, by the way.
Please just give the dog back right now. Please.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:42 PM on August 1, 2011
This is so sad. Poor doggie.
But make your child the priority. After your child, consider the other people in your life and the strangers on the street/running track/creek that your dog may encounter. Don't forget that you could get seriously sued if he hurts someone.
posted by imalaowai at 7:32 PM on August 1, 2011
But make your child the priority. After your child, consider the other people in your life and the strangers on the street/running track/creek that your dog may encounter. Don't forget that you could get seriously sued if he hurts someone.
posted by imalaowai at 7:32 PM on August 1, 2011
You've told us that not only do you realize that it's a problem, but that you will never have full control of any situation involving the dog and other people, including children. There was zero reason for this dog to remain in the house after the incident with your child, let alone now.
So: Why is this even a question at this point?
posted by zombieflanders at 7:51 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
So: Why is this even a question at this point?
posted by zombieflanders at 7:51 PM on August 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you didn't have a child I'd say get a trainer, but you do have a child. You can't keep the two separate in one home. I am sorry, I know you want to do the right thing, but the dog has to go.
posted by deborah at 9:10 PM on August 1, 2011
posted by deborah at 9:10 PM on August 1, 2011
smoke: "Sadly, I have personally experienced more than one shelter that will basically say anything to get people to adopt their animals. Lying about ages, temperaments, breeds, etc. They probably have no idea whether the dog was a biter, or are actively lying about it."
My friend Carol took in a pregnant pit bull last winter, gave it nothing but love and care, gave those puppies nothing but love and care, and that dog was just nuts, cruel, vicious, cunning, dangerous. She told the people at APA again and again -- hell, *I* told them again and again -- and they said "Oh, you just don't understand dogs." Hey, jerk, fuck you -- I *do* understand dogs, I damn sure understand them well enough to know when a dog is a lost cause, and Brownie was and is a lost cause. They got fussy when I called them out on it but I can't think of a way I could possibly care less. They're liars, and need to be called on it.
Carol finally gave her back to the shelter -- Austin Pets Alive, a no-kill shelter/adoption org here in Austin -- and on their website they've got a beautiful picture of Brownie with a cute pink chew-toy, and stating what a beautiful dog she is, and blah blah blah blah but nothing about "Hey, she's real pretty and all but she's also a total psycho, and completely, totally unsafe around any other dogs and/or anyone who won't be willing and able to stomp her ass as she's snarling, slavering, and attacking."
I totally applaud their high ideals and their no-kill philosophy and there is absolutely no way of knowing what might have happened to Brownie -- if anything -- to have turned her so vicious. But the fact is that she is vicious, a dangerous dog, and other than as a chained junk-yard dog she'd be better being put down, or, rather, we'd be better served if she were put down. It's just a matter of time with her, she's always ready, always seeking a slight inattentiveness to leap through and do her deal. Too bad.
Get that dog out of your house. Insist they take it back. Get that dog away from your child, away from any situation where it will be around any child. Quite frankly, if it's a no-kill outfit and they're going to just give the dog out again behind a big bunch of lies, I think you should get a .22 and take the dog for a short walk out back, save everyone the troubles and save the shelter from lying to the next person and having *their* child get bitten, too.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:34 AM on August 2, 2011
My friend Carol took in a pregnant pit bull last winter, gave it nothing but love and care, gave those puppies nothing but love and care, and that dog was just nuts, cruel, vicious, cunning, dangerous. She told the people at APA again and again -- hell, *I* told them again and again -- and they said "Oh, you just don't understand dogs." Hey, jerk, fuck you -- I *do* understand dogs, I damn sure understand them well enough to know when a dog is a lost cause, and Brownie was and is a lost cause. They got fussy when I called them out on it but I can't think of a way I could possibly care less. They're liars, and need to be called on it.
Carol finally gave her back to the shelter -- Austin Pets Alive, a no-kill shelter/adoption org here in Austin -- and on their website they've got a beautiful picture of Brownie with a cute pink chew-toy, and stating what a beautiful dog she is, and blah blah blah blah but nothing about "Hey, she's real pretty and all but she's also a total psycho, and completely, totally unsafe around any other dogs and/or anyone who won't be willing and able to stomp her ass as she's snarling, slavering, and attacking."
I totally applaud their high ideals and their no-kill philosophy and there is absolutely no way of knowing what might have happened to Brownie -- if anything -- to have turned her so vicious. But the fact is that she is vicious, a dangerous dog, and other than as a chained junk-yard dog she'd be better being put down, or, rather, we'd be better served if she were put down. It's just a matter of time with her, she's always ready, always seeking a slight inattentiveness to leap through and do her deal. Too bad.
Get that dog out of your house. Insist they take it back. Get that dog away from your child, away from any situation where it will be around any child. Quite frankly, if it's a no-kill outfit and they're going to just give the dog out again behind a big bunch of lies, I think you should get a .22 and take the dog for a short walk out back, save everyone the troubles and save the shelter from lying to the next person and having *their* child get bitten, too.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:34 AM on August 2, 2011
My rescue dog bit me a few times at first. He went for my face (in a flash) and I really considered putting him down. It has been 2 years since the last bite which is great BUT my dog will NEVER be allowed near a child (not even on leash b/c kids are unpredictable) or near a visitor to my house without him being on leash. I usually just put him outside. Even when he is on leash and I have warned my visitors not to touch him or make direct eye contact, they ALWAYS ignore me "because dogs love them". Sigh. My dog warms up to people when he is ignored. Getting in his face and baby talk makes him really nervous. Your dog bites and this means your life will change if you want to keep him. You will be on edge all the time wondering what the dog will do. I live alone and have a huge backyard so I can control my situation well. You are risking your daughter/others being maimed, is that worth it? What if someone sues you?
posted by futz at 8:27 AM on August 2, 2011
posted by futz at 8:27 AM on August 2, 2011
Nosing around online I came across a website all about dangerous dogs ---> dogsbite.org
You might want to read what they say, and consider carefully their wisdom. Please, get that animal away from your child, from any child. Things happen FAST, one moment of inattentiveness and ... Read that website, you'll see what happens, just way too often.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:04 PM on August 3, 2011
You might want to read what they say, and consider carefully their wisdom. Please, get that animal away from your child, from any child. Things happen FAST, one moment of inattentiveness and ... Read that website, you'll see what happens, just way too often.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:04 PM on August 3, 2011
Hey, I know I'm late to the game, but I figured since there are a lot of conflicting opinions on here, one more wouldn't hurt.
In my experience, most animals can be trained not to guard food, and to be very gentle with children. However, they probably shouldn't be in homes with small children until this training is completed. Return this dog to the shelter, talk with them about what went 'wrong'/why this relationship didn't work, and see if they can help you find a dog that will be a better fit.
Shelters are not homes, and the experiences that people and dogs have together in shelters are very, very different than will be encountered in your home. Yes, some shelters lie- but if it's a larger shelter and the dogs are in crates or kennels most of the time, with little human interaction, then they only have an idea of the dog's personality in that one, rather limited sphere. Your home- any home- is very, very different, and involves constant interaction with varied people, varied surroundings, and probably some pretty inconsistent training and life cues from you, your daughter, and anyone else living in the home. The reaction that a dog who's out of his kennel for the first time all day to an excited child is very different from the tired and hungry dog who you'll see at home.
Your daughter is young- even if you discuss ad nauseum why not to do some things (don't bother him when he's eating, if he has a bone don't take it away, don't pull his tail/try to ride him like a pony/dress him up, etc) around the dog, she's going to forget/ignore you and do them. You may be able to train the dog to end this behavior (likely with the help of an experienced trainer), you may not. In any case, a dog that still needs that level of training probably shouldn't be in a home with small children. The dog can be a giant pile of awesome sauce, but if he's bitten your daughter then it's not a good fit.
posted by Cracky at 9:23 PM on August 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
In my experience, most animals can be trained not to guard food, and to be very gentle with children. However, they probably shouldn't be in homes with small children until this training is completed. Return this dog to the shelter, talk with them about what went 'wrong'/why this relationship didn't work, and see if they can help you find a dog that will be a better fit.
Shelters are not homes, and the experiences that people and dogs have together in shelters are very, very different than will be encountered in your home. Yes, some shelters lie- but if it's a larger shelter and the dogs are in crates or kennels most of the time, with little human interaction, then they only have an idea of the dog's personality in that one, rather limited sphere. Your home- any home- is very, very different, and involves constant interaction with varied people, varied surroundings, and probably some pretty inconsistent training and life cues from you, your daughter, and anyone else living in the home. The reaction that a dog who's out of his kennel for the first time all day to an excited child is very different from the tired and hungry dog who you'll see at home.
Your daughter is young- even if you discuss ad nauseum why not to do some things (don't bother him when he's eating, if he has a bone don't take it away, don't pull his tail/try to ride him like a pony/dress him up, etc) around the dog, she's going to forget/ignore you and do them. You may be able to train the dog to end this behavior (likely with the help of an experienced trainer), you may not. In any case, a dog that still needs that level of training probably shouldn't be in a home with small children. The dog can be a giant pile of awesome sauce, but if he's bitten your daughter then it's not a good fit.
posted by Cracky at 9:23 PM on August 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
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