ipod or Creative Zen?

May 26, 2005 7:49 AM

So I want to buy an mp3 player, and I'm having a hard time making a choice. As I see it, Creative Zen players are cheaper than ipods, but the software isn't that great and the players are bigger. Ipods look beautiful but are pricey.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I want 40GB storage and I couldn't care less about having photos on the thing. (me=!photographer). If the Creative player will be usable and not totally annoying, then I'll go for it on price grounds. But I'd be interested in any views. I know this has come up before, but I wondered if, for example, there have been any useful updates from Creative to their soft/firmware.

posted by altolinguistic to sports, hobbies, & recreation (45 comments total)

what about iaudio's m40? that's arguably sleeker than the ipod and certainly smaller.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:10 AM on May 26, 2005

perhaps this fits better under 'technology'... actually, yes it does. Sorry.
posted by altolinguistic at 8:13 AM on May 26, 2005

If you're already using iTunes, an iPod is by the far the best choice firmware-wise. Otherwise, it's up to you.

One other thing to bear in mind is that the iPod casing is pretty flimsy, so if you carry one in a tight trouser pocket too much, you'll damage the hard disk.
posted by cillit bang at 8:20 AM on May 26, 2005

I have a couple friends that love their iRiver jawns. Not sure about Creative players, but in terms of usefulness just about anything seems to beat an ipod. Ipods are (mostly) roped into working with Itunes, and its very difficult to take stuff off of them. People keep hacking them and they keep updating ITunes to disable the hacks and so on. Basically, if you plug an ipod in (at least on a Mac) it will NOT mount as a drive, and will only be accessible through Itunes interface. But any other self respecting hard disk player will act like a hard disk - it will mount like a hard disk and you can put stuff on it and take stuff off just like a normal hard disk. Also, most other players support recording, whereas the ipod requires a 50 dollar addon to record the most lofi mp3 you could imagine, or an installation of Linux that enables medium-fi recording.

An ipod will integrate with itunes a bit better than others, like for podcasts and stuff, but in my opinion they are very nice machines that are disabled to the point of being less functional than a Walkman. Many of the functions can be hacked back in, so if you want to learn about how things work, and you are willing to keep up with the latest developments in ipod tomfoolery, there you go.

But really, if you can actually transfer stuff back and forth (imagine!) then theres no need to have your music collection duplicated on your computer and your ipod. With fast transfer speed, you could even get away with a five gig player, and just spend two minutes filling it up every once in a while.
posted by 31d1 at 8:22 AM on May 26, 2005

The Creative Zen players sound good and are cheap. But the interface is kind of crappy, and if you're AT ALL hard on your equipment, I guarantee you it will break.

Archos looks like they make some neat players, which I am likely to try next...
posted by jaded at 8:28 AM on May 26, 2005

I don't understand the obsession with everything being smaller. Really, what are you gonna do with the few extra inches you get by having the slightly smaller iPod? Carry some change? HJaving it smaller just makes it easier to lose.

I've had my creative Zen for about a year and a half, and I love it. Never had any problems with the device or with the software it comes with.
posted by emptybowl at 8:29 AM on May 26, 2005

i don't think the interface on my creative (i've got the zen Xtra!) is at all crappy. i've fiddled with a couple friends' i-pods and i'd say it's different but not necessarily inferior and not objectively crappy. i've dropped mine a couple times and it still works fine. it fits in my pocket and doesn't take up too much room in my bag.

i didn't go with ipod b/c of the cost, and basically everything 31d1 said.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:34 AM on May 26, 2005

I love my Creative Zen, but wouldn't love it nearly as much if I hadn't downloaded Notmad Explorer software to use instead of the bundled crap that came with it. If you are thinking of getting a Creative player, consider the Notmad software into the price ($15-$35 depending on model) and get it at the same time.

My player does seem a little more fragile than an iPod, but as long as you aren't reckless with them I think you'd be fine. Plus, my model has a swappable battery (about $30 on eBay), which is really nice.
posted by arco at 8:34 AM on May 26, 2005

A friend of mine bought the Creative and spent the entire time complaining about the size, weight, software and looks of the thing.

In comparison, every major complaint I've heard about the iPod written on Metafilter is by someone who clearly hasn't actually used one or done the simplest of googling. Sorry 31d1 but I'm going to have to pick on you as your one comment is a classic example of three of the most common fallacies rolled into one:

its very difficult to take stuff off of them
FALSE: The folder is invisible but can easily be seen by changing the view settings. Sure the items are split up and not grouped together logically but a free download (iPodAgent is one of them) will easily copy files back from the iPod without a problem. However if you're not interested in getting the full album together, you can easily pick off the individual files without having to install anything.

The iPod is tied to iTunes
FALSE: There are plenty of alternatives, free and not-so free - look up ephpod, Anapod Explorer and even Winamp (+plugin) for starters. All of them provide music management and many of them include additional functionality such as streaming and the debunking of the next myth...

The iPod can't be mounted as a hard-drive
FALSE: The iPod will mount as an external hard-drive without iTunes installed. You plug it in and Windows will identify it as an external drive. I have 10 gigs worth of standard files on mine right now. If you have iTunes installed you need to check the option labelled "enable disk use" or it'll automatically mount and unmount only when needed. The reason for the latter is so that you can unplug it from the dock or cable at almost any time without the obnoxious "you need to eject your device" message popping up.

My advice? The iPod is still the best MP3 player out there in terms of looks, functionality, accessory support and ease of use.

Having said that, it is by no means perfect - but I would ignore comments by anyone who uses the above three points as they're not valid and seriously question the validity of the rest of their opinion.
posted by ralawrence at 8:39 AM on May 26, 2005

I recently was faced with the same decision when it was time to upgrade my 30 gig Zen Xtra. In the end, I decided to get a 60 gig Zen Xtra. Creative's software has improved a bit in the last couple of years, especially since the added Nomad Explorer, which integrates with Windows Explorer lets you drap and drop files from your music directory and does everything that their Mediasource software does without being a piece of crap. But I still use Notmad Explorer, which lets me drap and drop files directly from my iTunes playlists onto the Zen.
posted by amarynth at 8:40 AM on May 26, 2005

What 31d1 said is not quite accurate.

* An iPod can act as a hard drive, but that storage is segregated from the music storage. The setting for this is in iTunes, strangely enough.
* But, the segregation is only in the UI. If you are a Unix jockey, its quite easy to see that the music storage is a folder hidden in the iPod volume.
* I would agree that the segregation of muzak and data is suboptimal. The Steve giveth and The Steve taketh away? Or maybe its the record industry? Who knows.
* The recording doodad is $40, not $50. I can't speak to the quality.

On preview: ralawrence is right on.
posted by therealadam at 8:42 AM on May 26, 2005

Blast, I meant debunking of the previous myth. In short, both Anapod and Winamp allow copying of music back again.

on preview: Regarding the hidden folders, in Wnidows do, tools -> folder options -> view and select "show hidden files and folders". You'll now see the folder of music within explorer.

Finally, congratulations crush-onastick, you avoided buying an iPod because of three "problems" which don't actually exist with the device :)
posted by ralawrence at 8:44 AM on May 26, 2005

Yeah if you don't mind finding hidden folders, downloading third party apps, and asking metafilter for help every once in a while, an ipod will work fine. There's always work arounds, it IS a hard drive, so hey, whatever floats your boat. I'd still check out an iRiver but whatever, all of the devices will allow you to listen to music. The recording doodad AFAIK is 5kbps. yeah, 5.
posted by 31d1 at 8:53 AM on May 26, 2005

Oh yeah, the winamp plugin looks dope. It apparently lets you move music both ways among other things, and a lot of people seem to really like it.

Now, since I obviously don't know what I'm talking about, what do you more knowledgeable people think are the chances of the winamp plugin not being intentionally broken in the next firmware upgrade?
posted by 31d1 at 8:57 AM on May 26, 2005

the integration with iTunes and the incredible ease-of-use are two aspects of the iPod that should not be overlooked

Those are probably the two main reasons I love my iPod - I can't imagine haveing to manually move stuff back and forth - I live off of smart playlists that constantly keep the ipod updated with new music that i haven't heard for x-amount of time.

Finding and listening to music on the iPod is incredibly easy too - much easier than any of the other players I've tried - This, in my opinion, is very important.
posted by soplerfo at 8:57 AM on May 26, 2005

Archos makes decent kit, but QA is often asleep at the switch, from what I've heard. I bought one retail about three years ago and replaced the hard drive in it maybe a year back.

If you don't mind opening things up and voiding the warranty, the Archos is a decent choice even if it isn't as pretty as an iPod and weighs a lot more. I like the fact that I can change out the batteries with new rechargeable AAs instead of having to buy some godawful proprietary battery, and I liked that when I had to change out the hard drive, I could do it in about 20 minutes.

However, the iPod's got a lot of mindshare right now and I will admit that once you get used to the interface, it's a pretty sweet little machine. There are a lot of third-party addons for it that make it more flexible, too. The Archos model I have is also hampered by its hardware - it won't ever play any format other than MP3 (this is a hardware thing, not a firmware thing), for instance.

So, to answer your question: it really depends on what you want and what you're willing to put up with. No single player is liable to be a perfect answer for you, and the easiest thing to do might just be to sit down and make up a pro-con list of all the candidates. Players are a highly subjective thing, which is part of why I'm shying away from giving you a direct recommendation for X over Y.
posted by staresbynight at 9:04 AM on May 26, 2005

I don't have any perspective, having never owned a Creative player, but I love my iPod and I love iTunes, and I would pay a premium again to use them. I have no complaints. I say go for it.
posted by josh at 9:09 AM on May 26, 2005

actually, ralawrence, the sole deciding factor for me was price. i had fiddled with a friend's ipod and it was okay. fiddled with another friend's creative and it was fine. at the time i bought the creative it was half as expensive for twice the storage space.

i've had no problems with the creative, but obviously other people like other things better.
posted by crush-onastick at 9:13 AM on May 26, 2005

Now, since I obviously don't know what I'm talking about, what do you more knowledgeable people think are the chances of the winamp plugin not being intentionally broken in the next firmware upgrade?

The plugin is actually over a year old and both Anapod and Ephpod are easily double the age. During that time there have been several releases where Apple could have patched it but chose not to.

To be honest, I don't think they will do anything about it. Even if they do, people will find a workaround - they always do.
posted by ralawrence at 9:19 AM on May 26, 2005

Just a question based on your username; are you going to be using the player for fieldwork purposes like portable storage or playback for your consultants? The reason I ask is that Creative's players have better battery life performance than a comparable iPod, which may be an issue if you're in the field.

Just out of curiosity, you don't study Altaic languages, are you?
posted by cog_nate at 9:26 AM on May 26, 2005

Depends on the use, but if price and size are important factors for you, get an iPod mini instead of the full size model.

I initially bought a 40gb iPod, later received a mini one as a prize, and the bigger one has stayed plugged into my stereo at home ever since. Trust me, you really don't need your whole music library on you at any one time (even though it initally seems pretty cool, 950 songs is more than enough) and if you walk and subway all the time like I do the size and weight differential is hugely important. Especially after you've bought a protective case of some sort or other, the iPod is pretty bulky.
posted by dublinemma at 9:31 AM on May 26, 2005

I love my Creative Zen. The battery life is to die for, and the interface isn't as bad as some people here are making it out to be. The software is garbage, though, but I only use it to rip cds directly to the Zen, which it does just fine. For playing I use the winamp plugin.

I've dropped it (less than 1 ft) several times and it's still working just fine, going on 5 months now.
posted by ThePants at 9:35 AM on May 26, 2005

Speaking as someone who owns a few of these players:

Don't get a Creative Zen Micro. They are really quite terrible.

Do get an iPod. The downside is that they don't work with Windows services like Napster to Go. The upside is everything else: they are the best players on the market. The price investment is more than worth it in terms of saved frustration. iPods are far more enjoyable to use than iRivers or Creative Zens (I know because I have them.)
posted by skylar at 9:36 AM on May 26, 2005

FALSE: The iPod will mount as an external hard-drive without iTunes installed. You plug it in and Windows will identify it as an external drive.

Of course, for this to work, the iPod has to be formatted with a filesystem that Windows understands. I'm a Mac user, and when I went on a trip and tried plugging my iPod into various Internet cafe machines I discovered that Windows wouldn't recognize it because it was formatted as HFS+. I have since wiped the iPod and reinstalled using the Windows version of the iPod software. It now works fine on my Mac (since Mac OS has had support for Windows filesystems for a long time) and on the Windows machines I visit occasionally.
posted by aneel at 9:37 AM on May 26, 2005

er, do you?
posted by cog_nate at 9:39 AM on May 26, 2005

Quick question for anybody who cares to answer it: my girlfriend is considering the same questions as this (although she won't be buying an iPod because she absolutely despises and reviles the one she bought 2 years ago for the junk it is), and she was wondering if any of these MP3 players run on AAs instead of an internal power source.
posted by baphomet at 10:24 AM on May 26, 2005

Watch out for Archos - their QA is definitely lacking. I bought a Gmini XS200, and it crashed as frequently as five or six times an hour. I had to send it back for repair twice, because the first time I sent it back the problem was even worse when it returned. The new one they finally sent me works fine, but I still wish I'd bought an iRiver instead.
posted by vorfeed at 10:33 AM on May 26, 2005

One significant gotcha is that once formatted under Windows, you can't access the iPod from a Mac without reformatting it -- and vice versa. Using the iPod as a transport device, then, is only possible insofar as all your friends are using the same OS series. (It may be possible to work around this limitation using third-party software; if so, I'd love to know about it.)
posted by gentle at 11:05 AM on May 26, 2005

baphomet: The Archos Jukebox Recorder 20 is a bit bulky, a bit ugly, but more powerful than the ipod, and runs on AAs. But the firmware it comes with is mediocre, she'll want to replace it with rockbox. Also, since it's old, is cheap, but hard to find new, probably have to get one off ebay.

Ipod users: Something I'm not clear on - does the control wheel operate through the fabric of your pocket (or gloves), or do you do have to take it out of your pocket (or fiddle with a remote) in order to operate it? (I'm under the impression that you can't use it in your pocket, which to me would be a dealbreaker)
posted by -harlequin- at 11:21 AM on May 26, 2005

-harlequin-: No, the control wheel's quite usable through fabric - I routinely use mine while it's in a shirt or pants pocket. You may have a couple of problems if the fabric's very, very thick, but I've yet to encounter any difficulties. You, uh, might not want to use it in your shirt pocket, though. Walking around while rubbing your finger in a circle over your nipple can create all sorts of misunderstandings.
posted by ZaphodB at 11:37 AM on May 26, 2005

I've had a Creative Jukebox Zen 2.0 for going on 2 1/2 years now, and have never had a problem. And believe, me I've put it through its paces (numerous drops, whirlwind trips around the globe, glares from iPod users).

I can't speak as to the relative merits of Creative vs. the iPod, but am merely speaking up as a satisfied Creative user . . .
posted by kables at 11:41 AM on May 26, 2005

To second vorfeed, I bought an Archos Gmini XS200, loaded it up with music, then the hard-drive crashed so badly that it wouldn't boot up enough to be able to re-format it. Luckily this happened within a week after I bought it, so I returned it to CompUSA and bought an ipod.
The software on the Gmini was pretty clunky, too.
posted by rfs at 11:42 AM on May 26, 2005

One significant gotcha is that once formatted under Windows, you can't access the iPod from a Mac without reformatting it -- and vice versa. Using the iPod as a transport device, then, is only possible insofar as all your friends are using the same OS series.

That's not true. I have my ipod formatted as FAT32 so I can use it with a windows machine, and it works fine as a hard drive on my iBook too. Mounts on my desktop just like my USB flashdrive does. No third party software.
posted by reynir at 1:01 PM on May 26, 2005

Anyone make an iTunes alternative for OS X? I hate iTunes.
posted by dobbs at 1:06 PM on May 26, 2005

XNJB allows most of the "windows-only" players to work fine on OS X. I have the Dell DJ and I think it's better than the Windows software it came with.
posted by smackfu at 1:46 PM on May 26, 2005

baphomet: my Creative MuVo Micro runs on one AAA, and I get 20+ hours per battery. I love this player. It's teensy [comparable to a Zippo lighter] and can hold up to 1 GB. Not alot when compared to the larger players, but I only use it for running/working out, and the size, light weight, and intuitive controls are all awesome.

Also, I've dropped it numerous times, sometimes while running, and it hasn't even hiccuped.
posted by Bella Sebastian at 2:07 PM on May 26, 2005

I have had a Creative JukeBox for over two years, traveled all over with it, dropped it, upgraded the firmware, etc. I would say that it gets the job done for an excellent price. It is bigger than iPods, but small enough that I can go on long walks with it, the battery is still great (12+ hours) and there is a slot for a second battery.

A friend of mine has the Zen Mico and he loves it, has had it for 6 months. He likes the built in radio and size for running. Also, the Micro acts like an external hard drive, my Jukebox requires software installation (I use Notmad too)

I would suggest deciding a budget and then trading style for storage. You will pay more for the same storage in an iPod compared with Creative Players. If you would rather have style, then go for the iPod. There is a reason why they market so heavily on how people look when they are listening to their iPods.
posted by jonah at 2:35 PM on May 26, 2005

Two selling points for the iPod for me: 1) You will find more accessories for them than any other player. I was at a carwash the other day that had iPod cases for sale. 2) iPods have a lineout in addition to the headphone jack. A dock/linein connection to your stereo sounds much better than the headphone jack.

harlequin, you inspired me to do some tests. All tests were conducted with Levi jeans I bought at Dillards and OEM bare finger:

3G iPod (4 buttons across the top): buttons worked through the jeans, but not the wheel

2G iPod touch wheel: buttons worked through the jeans, but not the wheel

1G iPod scroll wheel: all functions worked, but wheel took some pressure to function

2G iPod mini: buttons worked through the jeans, but wheel only intermittently (why does the mini work and not the other touch wheels?)

I repeated all the tests with my shirt pocket (t-shirt fabric) and both the wheel and other functions worked through the fabric with the exception of some two-finger exercises involving the wheel.
posted by joaquim at 3:11 PM on May 26, 2005

I've had a Zen for about 3 years now and my roommates have iPods, so I've played with both enough to know what's what.

Cons for the Zen:
1) Sometimes the interface is counterintuitive.
2) You will NEED to purchase the afore mentioned Notmad Explorer to avoid throwing the Zen out of the frustration of dealing with Creative's software. And if you ever want to move away from Windows (say, towards Linux or a Mac), the interface software that is out there is pretty unusable in it's current state -- this is in fact one thing that keeps me on Windows.
3) Yeah, it is a bit big and ugly, which will wear on you after awhile.
4) All the cool accessories are for the iPod.
5) I've had two now (had to get it replaced after dropping it on concrete) and on both the buttons seem to get a bit confused after a year or so of use. By confused, I mean that you will press the "Play" button and it will interpret it as the "Menu" button and so forth.
6) The fact that you have to install drivers to use the thing at all.
7) Only plays mp3, wmv, and wav files.

Pro for the Zen:
1) Create playlists directly on the player.
2) Delete songs/albums directly on the player.
3) Battery life.
4) Sounds great, especially once you get some nice headphones.

Pro for iPod:
1) Looks great, make you feel at one with the herd.
2) It just works in the same way Macs just work.
3) Accessories.
4) You have your share of ways of interfacing with computers.
5) You probably already know how to use it, even if you've never seen one. Now, if you have played with another player, it might be a little confusing, but otherwise it is pretty straight forward.

Cons for the iPod:
1) Sound quality... meh.
2) Battery life is... meh.
3) No deleting off the player, no making playlists on the go (as far as I've found).
4) Price.

At this point, when/if I have to replace my current player I'll probably shoot for something along the lines of a iRiver or Rio or whoever else can give me a large capacity player that plays mp3, ogg, and flac; has a line out (bonus points for optical line out as well); and shows up as an external hard drive so I don't have to use any particular software to interface with my player.

And on preview: joaquim, none of the iPods I've ever seen have a line out on the player.
posted by The Bishop of Turkey at 3:22 PM on May 26, 2005

No deleting off the player, no making playlists on the go

I don't understand the benefit of deleting off the player. Why does it matter to be able to do this? It's kind of neat, I guess, but I can't imagine I'd use it.

As for playlists, I can't tell if this is a joke or not because the built in playlist on iPods is called "on the go". Do this:

--Highlight a song/album/artist/playlist that you want to add to the on the go playlist.
-- Press and hold the select (center circle) button for 2 seconds
-- Cursor line will flash to tell you song has been added to the on the go playlist.

To listen to the On the Go playlist, just go to the Playlists menu and choose "on the go".

Next time you synch your ipod the playlist will be sent to iTunes and you can name it whatever you wish or delete it or whatever.

none of the iPods I've ever seen have a line out on the player.

They all have them as far as I know. It's the port on the bottom. You can buy a cable to connect directly from it to your stereo or, if you have a dock, you just put in the dock and connect your stereo to the dock with a regular 3.5mm minijack.
posted by dobbs at 5:03 PM on May 26, 2005

I actually delete stuff off my player all of the time and find it rather useful for the purpose of screening/sorting my music.

And I never noticed the "on the go" playlist -- as far as I could tell you were only able to play what you selected. Eh, I guess I haven't played with them enough.
posted by The Bishop of Turkey at 7:08 PM on May 26, 2005

none of the iPods I've ever seen have a line out on the player

They may not have been on the first and second generation iPods. Every iPod with a dock connector has a line out.
posted by forrest at 10:46 PM on May 26, 2005

Having used an iRiver tiny thing, and a mini iPod, and talked to people with all sorts of players, I can decisively say...

There is no perfect player.

We all have different needs. I really wanted long battery life, and probably not running on AA batteries (no recharger). I also wanted to be able to carry enough music that I didn't have to switch for weeks. I ended up with a 6 GB iPod mini, which space for space is the same price as any other player. I can get my music off just fine, and it has a truly kickass battery - 18 hours. I charge only every few days, and I listen a lot. Itunes has grown on me, and I really like the playlist creation and the general usability of both iTunes and the iPod. (I probably could have used a bit more storage, but I didn't know the 20 GB iPod was so much cheaper now.)

But if you are someone who has a Mac and a PC, or Linux or anything, an iPod could be bad for you. You can't load it straight like a USB drive, you cannot play WMA or OGG. If my fiance ever gets a player, he would want one that ran on AA. It's certainly better for a long trip.

Also, if you are a real audiophile, there are players that are better for that.

Best place I found for the low-down on players was the reviews at Cnet.

Figure out what your needs are, and which player would best suit them.
posted by jb at 11:54 PM on May 26, 2005

I have an ancient Creative Jukebox 2 and I find the interface so much better than on my friend's Ipods. Namely, the stupid wheel is a cool trick but a bad UI, and the older Creative interface just had more features/usefulness. I was shocked the first time I used an Ipod - I wanted to look for a band that started with "R" or whatever and I actually had to scroll through everything until I reached the Rs. I don't know how the Creative Zen interface is. The Jukebox software for the computer used to be horrible crap, but now it is replaced with an easy drag and drop, which is perfect for me since I don't organize my music with crazy libraries like iTunes would make me do and the old Jukebox software made me do.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:06 AM on May 27, 2005

I wanted to look for a band that started with "R" or whatever and I actually had to scroll through everything until I reached the Rs.

Well, I have a 60 gig iPod with about 12 thousand songs on it. I just tested going from A to R. Just under 2 seconds. In case you don't know this: the scroll wheel is not like a scroll bar, meaning that the distance covered by the finger during a scroll is not as relevant as the speed you move your finger. That is, if I move my finger slowly 360 degrees around the wheel, It'll go thru maybe a dozen artists. If I do it quickly, the same 360 degrees will go through a few dozen. If I move slowly but at a constant rate it will take 25 or 30 seconds to go from A - Z on my player, with my finger making 29 rotations (yes, I just counted). If I move quickly at a constant rate, I'll go from A - Z in 5 seconds and my finger will only do 4 full 360 degree rotations.
posted by dobbs at 12:02 PM on May 29, 2005