9 to 5 jobs: how to tell if it's really going to be a 9 to 5?
July 20, 2011 5:21 PM Subscribe
9 to 5 jobs: how to tell if it's really going to be a 9 to 5?
I'm currently contracted to work 9 to 5, but the job is more like 9 to 9. I also travel a lot so can't even go home at the end of the day, just back to my hotel room.
How can I find a job that is actually a 9 to 5? Money is not an issue; I'm willing to take a pay cut and work less. Do I actually ask at the interview stage? I don't want to seem lazy but I just want my life back!
I'm currently contracted to work 9 to 5, but the job is more like 9 to 9. I also travel a lot so can't even go home at the end of the day, just back to my hotel room.
How can I find a job that is actually a 9 to 5? Money is not an issue; I'm willing to take a pay cut and work less. Do I actually ask at the interview stage? I don't want to seem lazy but I just want my life back!
Ideally, there is a chance to chat with potential coworkers before an offer is extended. These kinds of inquiries need to be carefully worded, but they're the people you want to ask.
If you don't have access to potential coworkers, that is, in itself, a red flag. But, you can listen very carefully to your hiring team. They might say things like "sometimes we meet the special needs of our precious clients by remaining on site a little beyond scheduled quitting time." This often translates to, "you will be 'salaried,' and we will grind you to the bone." They might also be frank about it, "Some jobs require additional hours from some of our staff, but we don't anticipate this happening often." This is still sneaky, and translates to "the most recent hire is really complaining about not having a personal life, so you're going to take over the 9-9 crap, and he's going to only work 9-8."
posted by bilabial at 5:33 PM on July 20, 2011
If you don't have access to potential coworkers, that is, in itself, a red flag. But, you can listen very carefully to your hiring team. They might say things like "sometimes we meet the special needs of our precious clients by remaining on site a little beyond scheduled quitting time." This often translates to, "you will be 'salaried,' and we will grind you to the bone." They might also be frank about it, "Some jobs require additional hours from some of our staff, but we don't anticipate this happening often." This is still sneaky, and translates to "the most recent hire is really complaining about not having a personal life, so you're going to take over the 9-9 crap, and he's going to only work 9-8."
posted by bilabial at 5:33 PM on July 20, 2011
Are you ruling out offices where people occasionally work a late night, as well? If so, it's easy enough to just ask, I would imagine. If not, you may want to tread more carefully so as not to give the wrong impression. However, if you really have been working 12+ hour days, you can probably tee that up in your explanation of why you're looking for a new role, and why you'd be willing to take a lower salary. Both of those are questions that prospective employers will be looking for answers to.
On the mild subterfuge front, one way to do it is to float a later time for your interview (just tell them you're trying to work with your current job schedule) and see how they react to that. "How about 6PM," you can say. "Or does your office usually clear out by then?" You can also try calling the office at that hour (excuse: to thank them again for their time? that one burning follow up question you still had? to ask how far along they are in their decision process?), and see if anyone answers the phone. If someone does answer, say you're glad they're still there, and weren't sure if folks would still be in the office at that hour. See what they say, then ask your pre-prepared question so that it doesn't seem too weird.
Also, in a corporate environment, seek out larger/older companies where more employees have young kids. IBM has no one left for dinner. Google, not so much.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:37 PM on July 20, 2011
On the mild subterfuge front, one way to do it is to float a later time for your interview (just tell them you're trying to work with your current job schedule) and see how they react to that. "How about 6PM," you can say. "Or does your office usually clear out by then?" You can also try calling the office at that hour (excuse: to thank them again for their time? that one burning follow up question you still had? to ask how far along they are in their decision process?), and see if anyone answers the phone. If someone does answer, say you're glad they're still there, and weren't sure if folks would still be in the office at that hour. See what they say, then ask your pre-prepared question so that it doesn't seem too weird.
Also, in a corporate environment, seek out larger/older companies where more employees have young kids. IBM has no one left for dinner. Google, not so much.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:37 PM on July 20, 2011
You can frame it as "work/life balance"?
posted by k8t at 5:39 PM on July 20, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by k8t at 5:39 PM on July 20, 2011 [7 favorites]
Check out the parking lot after quitting time.
posted by gjc at 5:43 PM on July 20, 2011 [18 favorites]
posted by gjc at 5:43 PM on July 20, 2011 [18 favorites]
Two words: government job. Seriously. I work in an office building that's 60% private sector, 40% feds. It's impossible to get on an elevator between 5 and 5:30.
posted by charmcityblues at 5:55 PM on July 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by charmcityblues at 5:55 PM on July 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I agree with gjc. I have actually driven by possible job opportunities on the weekends as well.
In interviews I ask, "What is a typical day like for you?"
I have also found job ads that state the environment is "fast paced" typically means we plan poorly and you suffer for it.
posted by BuffaloChickenWing at 6:03 PM on July 20, 2011 [10 favorites]
In interviews I ask, "What is a typical day like for you?"
I have also found job ads that state the environment is "fast paced" typically means we plan poorly and you suffer for it.
posted by BuffaloChickenWing at 6:03 PM on July 20, 2011 [10 favorites]
Can you put this after-work life on your resume? (Skills: "bilingual spanish; attend a twice-a-week spanish language group"). You can portray your ongoing self-education or community service activities as a strength. At some point, casually check that it won't be a problem that you'll often have evening events, community service, or classes to attend.
posted by salvia at 6:04 PM on July 20, 2011
posted by salvia at 6:04 PM on July 20, 2011
Note that the parking idea doesn't help if the person is in downtown San Fran, NYC, etc. Office lights are another option, but days in the northern hemisphere are long now.
posted by salvia at 6:05 PM on July 20, 2011
posted by salvia at 6:05 PM on July 20, 2011
Ask. Ask neutrally, but ask. This has been a part of every job interview I've had for eons. I work in IT, where it's just a fact of life that you can't just take a server down in the middle of the day unless it's an emergency, so maybe it's a little more normal for me but there's nothing wrong with asking. I work closely with accounting departments, where sometimes you just have to plow through month-end close - there's almost always something, at least occasionally. What you want to hear in the answer, though, is an acknowledgment that it's taken into consideration. Maybe everybody usually stays late on the third of the month, and cuts loose early the following Friday.
Start by looking for jobs with no travel, though. That's always going to creep into your life.
If you need to present an excuse, say you've been thinking about grad school (an MBA or whatever) and are just curious if that's going to be feasible with the job in question.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:01 PM on July 20, 2011
Start by looking for jobs with no travel, though. That's always going to creep into your life.
If you need to present an excuse, say you've been thinking about grad school (an MBA or whatever) and are just curious if that's going to be feasible with the job in question.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:01 PM on July 20, 2011
It's probably a given that you are considering the difference between hourly paid and salary paid jobs. If you are paid hourly, you will generally be expected to work a 40 hour week. If you are salary, you work as many hours as necessary. There are exceptions to this, but they are few. I think it's also reasonable to ask the interviewer what hours are expected there. For my office, it's about 9 hours. Right now though, I'm working ten.
posted by two lights above the sea at 7:09 PM on July 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by two lights above the sea at 7:09 PM on July 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would suggest you get the job first, then steadfastly stick to a 9 to 5 schedule. I've worked in a bunch of salaried environments where the norm was more than 40 hours a week. Even though the cultural norm was more than 40, there were always people who worked a standard 40. They didn't get as many raises or promotions and always got pigeon-holed as "solid individual contributors". These won't be the people interviewing you for a job, so asking about hours at the interview is going to skew high. Also, sticking to a standard 40 in a professional environment won't endear you to your co-workers and will put you more at risk in a mass layoff situation. This approach will probably not work if you are in a team-based project environment that is centered around milestones and deadlines or an operations environment. But if you can find a job that is a little more transactional, and can shrug off the snarky comments from you co-workers, you can probably pull it off.
posted by kovacs at 7:27 PM on July 20, 2011
posted by kovacs at 7:27 PM on July 20, 2011
Yes, "work/life balance" in my experience is the key phrase. Like "what is the work/life balance like here?"
posted by librarina at 8:16 PM on July 20, 2011
posted by librarina at 8:16 PM on July 20, 2011
I had somebody ask 'How many people are here after 6?' It didn't faze us, because we just said 'actually, most people are gone around 5', which was the answer he had hoped to hear. If we'd freaked out or become defensive, he'd have known it wasn't the job for him.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 8:54 PM on July 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by obiwanwasabi at 8:54 PM on July 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I second the salaried vs. hourly thing, also if you are supervising vs. being a peon. Or programmer.
I can also recommend working at a university office job for strict leaving-at-5-ness.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:58 PM on July 20, 2011
I can also recommend working at a university office job for strict leaving-at-5-ness.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:58 PM on July 20, 2011
Don't know about your field, but in applying for jobs in manufacturing no-one seemed to be phased by 'what's your typical work schedule?' - I think most of the places I interviewed at said something like 45-50 hours a week, but one place the interviewers each said 55-60 and I remember it kicked them down my list somewhat. That place had an overall intense feeling to it, to be honest, so maybe you could pick up on it some other way. But as long as you sound like you can be flexible, I don't think it's a problem to want to at least know what a typical work week looks like.
(And, as someone said above, you'll tend to get answers that skew high because the people who put in the bare minimum aren't the people who end up making hiring decisions).
posted by Lady Li at 11:59 PM on July 20, 2011
(And, as someone said above, you'll tend to get answers that skew high because the people who put in the bare minimum aren't the people who end up making hiring decisions).
posted by Lady Li at 11:59 PM on July 20, 2011
My way of phrasing this is 'I'm not a big fan of presenteeism. Is this the kind of place where the focus is on doing the work, or on being in the office?'
People who think like me love this question and respond to it well. People who are presenteeists hate it. But I don't want to work for someone whose thinking is informed by factory scheduling trends from the 1850s, so it works out.
posted by Happy Dave at 4:59 AM on July 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
People who think like me love this question and respond to it well. People who are presenteeists hate it. But I don't want to work for someone whose thinking is informed by factory scheduling trends from the 1850s, so it works out.
posted by Happy Dave at 4:59 AM on July 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
Two words: government job. Seriously. I work in an office building that's 60% private sector, 40% feds. It's impossible to get on an elevator between 5 and 5:30.
The only downside to that is the concept of mandatory overtime. The union contract may have provisions that sanction the worker if they don't work the overtime.
A fairly rare occurrence, but something to keep in mind. Also, government work tends to be fairly highly scrutinized WRT work hours. You'll likely have to sign in and out your entire working life, salary or not. If you cut out early, you better be using 20 minutes of comp time.
posted by gjc at 6:11 AM on July 21, 2011
The only downside to that is the concept of mandatory overtime. The union contract may have provisions that sanction the worker if they don't work the overtime.
A fairly rare occurrence, but something to keep in mind. Also, government work tends to be fairly highly scrutinized WRT work hours. You'll likely have to sign in and out your entire working life, salary or not. If you cut out early, you better be using 20 minutes of comp time.
posted by gjc at 6:11 AM on July 21, 2011
I would suggest you get the job first, then steadfastly stick to a 9 to 5 schedule. I've worked in a bunch of salaried environments where the norm was more than 40 hours a week. Even though the cultural norm was more than 40, there were always people who worked a standard 40. They didn't get as many raises or promotions and always got pigeon-holed as "solid individual contributors". These won't be the people interviewing you for a job, so asking about hours at the interview is going to skew high. Also, sticking to a standard 40 in a professional environment won't endear you to your co-workers and will put you more at risk in a mass layoff situation. This approach will probably not work if you are in a team-based project environment that is centered around milestones and deadlines or an operations environment. But if you can find a job that is a little more transactional, and can shrug off the snarky comments from you co-workers, you can probably pull it off.
I did this with my job after about 4 years on. My job performance has gone up, as has my compensation in relation to my peers.
Turns out, you can get away with nearly anything if you are nice about it, and manage to be reliable.
It is almost the opposite of being clock-focused instead of work-focused. Maybe it's just me, but that overtime feeling of "I could keep working forever and ever, and there would still be work" makes me nuts. It clears my mind to just be able to work until the bell goes off, and then walk away.
It also prevents those time-sappers. "Oh, I've got another hour of work to do anyway. I'll head out at 4, grab some dinner and pick up the dry cleaning, and then come back and finish up." Now, you end up staying in the office for three hours, because there is nothing stopping you. You get home at 8, the cat is lonely, and you just collapse in front of the TV. Or, you can say "alright, I've got a lot of stuff to do, better hurry up so I can get it all done before I have to leave."
The only people who are bothered by it are the ones who always try to find the "easy" way out. The manager types who find it easier to pay the overtime than solve the problem ahead of time. And the clock-milkers. If YOU can get your work done in time, what's their excuse? You are ruining their scam. Fuck 'em.
posted by gjc at 6:28 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I did this with my job after about 4 years on. My job performance has gone up, as has my compensation in relation to my peers.
Turns out, you can get away with nearly anything if you are nice about it, and manage to be reliable.
It is almost the opposite of being clock-focused instead of work-focused. Maybe it's just me, but that overtime feeling of "I could keep working forever and ever, and there would still be work" makes me nuts. It clears my mind to just be able to work until the bell goes off, and then walk away.
It also prevents those time-sappers. "Oh, I've got another hour of work to do anyway. I'll head out at 4, grab some dinner and pick up the dry cleaning, and then come back and finish up." Now, you end up staying in the office for three hours, because there is nothing stopping you. You get home at 8, the cat is lonely, and you just collapse in front of the TV. Or, you can say "alright, I've got a lot of stuff to do, better hurry up so I can get it all done before I have to leave."
The only people who are bothered by it are the ones who always try to find the "easy" way out. The manager types who find it easier to pay the overtime than solve the problem ahead of time. And the clock-milkers. If YOU can get your work done in time, what's their excuse? You are ruining their scam. Fuck 'em.
posted by gjc at 6:28 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
A phrase I like is 'manage my expectations.' I wouldn't use one like 'work/life balance,' because it's not neutral. I think it's fair to say something like 'What's typical in terms of overtime? I'm not averse to it, but would like to manage my expectations.'
posted by troywestfield at 6:55 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by troywestfield at 6:55 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Keep in mind very few jobs are really 9-5, because they don't pay you for lunch and they do expect you to work 8 hours, so they are usually 8:30-5:30 or about there.
posted by smackfu at 7:37 AM on July 21, 2011
posted by smackfu at 7:37 AM on July 21, 2011
Don't ask about "Work/Life balance". They'll just think you are a problematic employee.
Rather, just ask "What is a typical workday schedule like?"
Base your decision on that answer.
posted by eas98 at 8:51 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Rather, just ask "What is a typical workday schedule like?"
Base your decision on that answer.
posted by eas98 at 8:51 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Two words: government job. Seriously. I work in an office building that's 60% private sector, 40% feds. It's impossible to get on an elevator between 5 and 5:30.
Not necessarily. My fiance works for the city gov't (IT) and he's been having to go in on Sunday to work extra hours because the budget trimming/layoffs the city has had means there's not enough staff to get done what needs to be.
posted by Windigo at 9:02 AM on July 21, 2011
Don't ask about "Work/Life balance". They'll just think you are a problematic employee.
What connotations does work/life balance have that make it problematic? It's the big buzzword for it at my current company, but I've worked 60-70 hour weeks for years so it's essentially meaningless noise in my context.
posted by winna at 9:43 AM on July 21, 2011
What connotations does work/life balance have that make it problematic? It's the big buzzword for it at my current company, but I've worked 60-70 hour weeks for years so it's essentially meaningless noise in my context.
posted by winna at 9:43 AM on July 21, 2011
I think its perfectly natural to ask as a matter of interest: "So what kind of hours can I expect, I know it can be a high-pressure industry? blah blah".
I've been asked this as an Interviewer in most interviews and generally I try and answer accurately. As the company obviously doesn''t want to bring someone into the team who is going to have unrealistic expectations. and quit just after you've spent weeks training them/ getting them upto speed. And i've never thought it was a sign of a slacker, I always assumed it was a sign of someone who 'knows the score' and wants to know what they can expect.
You just need to phrase it as though you are not opposed to long hours should that be necessary.
If they say it can be long hours, then just decline the position IF you get offered it. Don't say no upfront.
posted by mary8nne at 10:42 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've been asked this as an Interviewer in most interviews and generally I try and answer accurately. As the company obviously doesn''t want to bring someone into the team who is going to have unrealistic expectations. and quit just after you've spent weeks training them/ getting them upto speed. And i've never thought it was a sign of a slacker, I always assumed it was a sign of someone who 'knows the score' and wants to know what they can expect.
You just need to phrase it as though you are not opposed to long hours should that be necessary.
If they say it can be long hours, then just decline the position IF you get offered it. Don't say no upfront.
posted by mary8nne at 10:42 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I try to broach this question by asking, "What is a typical day look like for this job?" It encompasses a lot and usually yields from useful information.
posted by parakeetdog at 11:46 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by parakeetdog at 11:46 AM on July 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
As long as you don't say, "I really like to be out by 5" or something like that, you'll be fine. And if they are judging people who don't want to work 90 hours a week, well then you didn't want that job anyway and it's best to find out up front.
posted by drjimmy11 at 5:31 PM on July 20, 2011 [1 favorite]