Pakistani cultural cues
July 8, 2011 12:40 PM   Subscribe

Pakistani cultural cues -- please help me make technical design reviews less frustrating!

I (American) have recently started doing technical design reviews with our Karachi office.

In general the linguistic and cultural differences have been manageable, but I'm hitting a brick wall when it comes to getting technical design details. It's not just with a single engineer, it's happened in every design review I've been a part of.

Karachi: Here is the high level of design aspect X, which we implemented to meet requirement Y.
Me: Okay, the high level looks good. Could you expand on the details a bit?
Karachi: Here is the high level of design aspect X, which we implemented to meet requirement Y.
Me: Yes, I know. And at a high level it looks fine. I would like to get a more detailed understanding of that part of the design.
Karachi: It meets design requirement Y in the following ways...
Me: Yes, it sounds like it meets the requirements Y exactly. I would like to get a more detailed understanding of the design.
Karachi: It meets design requirement Y in the following ways...
Me: (Gives up in frustration)

I would suspect that they're as frustrated as I am, as I'm the American bozo who keeps asking the same question over and over.

Has anyone else encountered this? Is it in fact a cross-cultural issue as I suspect, or are our Karachi engineers just dodging the question because they haven't thought the design through?

Any light shed on this would be most appreciated.
posted by Tell Me No Lies to Human Relations (9 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
Have you tried asking specific questions? What "details" are you interested in understanding more about? Give them targeted questions to answer and you'll get better results.
posted by hapax_legomenon at 12:48 PM on July 8, 2011


I can't really tell what your question (to them) is, and they're probably having the same problem. Can you break your high-level "expand on the details" request down into more specific questions that have clear answers?
posted by dfan at 12:52 PM on July 8, 2011


Response by poster: To clarify:

The questions are often detailed (e.g.) "How will you avoid traversing the linked list every time you want to access that particular chunk of memory?" or "Why did you decide to trade performance for memory in this particular case?"
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:59 PM on July 8, 2011


Best answer: 1) They probably have not thought through the design in the way you're expecting.
2) They may very well be unable to do so. This kind of thinking is rarely required in Pakistani educational programs.
3) You may have better success if you break your question down further, or suggest an alternative solution they could have used, and ask why they didn't pick that.


(background: I have taught in Pakistan for 10 years and have many friends who are in the IT industry there. I'm happy to talk some more with you about this, so feel free to memail.)
posted by bardophile at 1:23 PM on July 8, 2011


Unfamiliar with the culture so just throwing this out there, but might you be meeting with people who only have a high level understanding, and didn't do the actual implementation / detailed design ? Their response might be to avoid an embarrassing "I don't know," perhaps propose they can get back to you with this info, giving them time to consult with the engineer that has poor meeting / public speaking skills but knows the answers you seek?
posted by oblio_one at 2:37 PM on July 8, 2011


Best answer: Sorry, was a bit rushed before. Some things that will help me help you:

How are their English skills otherwise? Many times, questions like this will cause real language comprehension difficulties.

If it isn't linguistic, the bad news is that you may find yourself in the position of teacher. This is not an impossible situation, but it doesn't sound like it is in your original job description. The kinds of things they are struggling with probably include:

a) Thinking about how small parts add up to the big picture.
b) thinking about the real life implications of their design decisions,e.g. What happens when you choose to do x rather than y? I'm not entirely clear on what you are working on exactly, but also perhaps something like "when you do x, how does that affect the time a particular operation takes, or the user experience or whatever aspect is relevant...

It may seem to you like you're going to come off as too patronizing. Obviously I don't know what your team dynamic is, or what the other communication is like, but broadly speaking, this kind of detailed instruction wouldn't be considered out of line. As I said in my previous response, you are most likely expecting something of them that they have never been asked to think about. That is a typical result of the Pakistani education system, and is extremely frustrating.

On another note, if you can tell me what these team members' educational backgrounds are, I can possibly offer some insight into how tractable the issue might be. Good luck.
posted by bardophile at 6:28 PM on July 8, 2011


Designing over the phone is damn near impossible. I feel for you.

+1 to oblio_one, sounds to me like the people on the phone aren't the people who built the solution. The management team out there may not know or care that this is a problem for you.

The right solution here is for you to fly to Pakistan once or twice and sort this out on a whiteboard with the people who actually know the answers. There is no way to replicate the whiteboard in the design process, conf calls be damned.
posted by crazycanuck at 9:20 PM on July 8, 2011


A few ideas on how to get past the cross-cultural problems, seconding a few commenters above:

Yes, go there and physically meet them. Try to socialise with them, eat with them, and help them see that you're a real person who wants real conversation, not just some voice on the phone who wants the next CMM or ISO-9002 checkbox.

Yes, break the question down a different way. Since they're so fixated on requirements, maybe ask, "and what additional work would we need to do if we added requirement foo?"

Give them an example of the kind of design review you want to have. Show them a transcript or video of a design review in which engineers under interrogation delve deep into the details, perhaps sometimes deciding that a decision needs revisiting. Explain that such revisions are an expected part of the design process and that the need to revise does not imply that anyone's failed or erred. Use examples from your own career and work to help them save face.

Watch out for status and face-saving. Who's in these meetings? Are there bosses whose presence prevents some knowledgable engineers from "showing off," "losing face," or showing dangerous originality?
posted by brainwane at 9:03 AM on July 9, 2011 [1 favorite]


I would add that this part of brainwane's suggestions sounds particularly useful:

Give them an example of the kind of design review you want to have. Show them a transcript or video of a design review in which engineers under interrogation delve deep into the details, perhaps sometimes deciding that a decision needs revisiting. Explain that such revisions are an expected part of the design process and that the need to revise does not imply that anyone's failed or erred.

The face saving thing is not quite as pronounced as I would expect it to be in East Asian cultures, for example. My hunch is that they don't get what it is that you actually want, because they've never seen anything like that before. So the idea about showing them an example is likely to be extremely productive.
posted by bardophile at 10:58 AM on July 11, 2011


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