8 year Marriage itch
May 22, 2005 10:19 AM Subscribe
I'm a male - been married for 8 years, I'm 36 - have 2 kids and I'm feeling like I don't want to be married anymore.
Maybe it's a run of the mill mid-life crisis, but I'm having a hard time. I feel like a horse that's in a bridle that doesn't want to be broken.
Do you think that it's a natural human state to be coupled with another individual for the rest of your life? Or is this a big lie? Very few mammals mate for life - and I have to say that it doesn't feel very natural to me.
I love my kids dearly, and cannot leave them. But I constantly argue with my wife, and there is very little enjoyment in our relationship, just lots of simmering resentment, guilt trips etc. I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this. Can anyone (especially males) provide some advice in this area? People who have called it quits, and people who have stuck it out would be very welcome.
Maybe it's a run of the mill mid-life crisis, but I'm having a hard time. I feel like a horse that's in a bridle that doesn't want to be broken.
Do you think that it's a natural human state to be coupled with another individual for the rest of your life? Or is this a big lie? Very few mammals mate for life - and I have to say that it doesn't feel very natural to me.
I love my kids dearly, and cannot leave them. But I constantly argue with my wife, and there is very little enjoyment in our relationship, just lots of simmering resentment, guilt trips etc. I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this. Can anyone (especially males) provide some advice in this area? People who have called it quits, and people who have stuck it out would be very welcome.
Have you talked to anybody who can provide a "professional" third ear? Like a marriage counselor or clergy person (personally a non-hasidic rabbi is my choice.) At your age a lot of people feel trapped - but believe me, starting from scratch after a divorce is no easy slide to a fresh new life. There may be alternatives, there may be hidden reasons for the frustration with your wife that a third party might pick up on in a constructive way. Counseling may at least help define your frustrations more clearly and open ways for solution.
People do grow up and change, but I happen to think humans are fated to single mates for life - I was trained as an anthropologist and relatively few traditional societies practice divorce as commonly as our modern societies do now, for the simple reason that the kids need two parents until adulthood to become encultured. (Yeah, I know,. TV does that work now.)
Maybe you just need a vacation by yourself. Sure beats a separation.
posted by zaelic at 10:54 AM on May 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
People do grow up and change, but I happen to think humans are fated to single mates for life - I was trained as an anthropologist and relatively few traditional societies practice divorce as commonly as our modern societies do now, for the simple reason that the kids need two parents until adulthood to become encultured. (Yeah, I know,. TV does that work now.)
Maybe you just need a vacation by yourself. Sure beats a separation.
posted by zaelic at 10:54 AM on May 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
My advice, as a male divorced five years ago, and still recovering, is to do whatever the hell you can to keep your marriage going. No matter how dark it might seem at the moment, take my my word that it can feel a million times worse.
Suck it up. Learn to listen to her. Swallow your pride. Do what's good for them. Do whatever the hell you have to do to keep her, because the alternative is something that equates with something from Dante's worst nightmares.
I guess what it comes down to is, could you bear to have your kids for two weekends a month. And, after having had them for the weekend, could you cheerfully pat them on the rump as they head to the car containing the now-ex and her new love-interest. Then, for the next two weeks, before you see them again, coming home to an empty house.
Basically, don't give it up, work for it. The alternative is truly horrible.
posted by veedubya at 10:57 AM on May 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
Suck it up. Learn to listen to her. Swallow your pride. Do what's good for them. Do whatever the hell you have to do to keep her, because the alternative is something that equates with something from Dante's worst nightmares.
I guess what it comes down to is, could you bear to have your kids for two weekends a month. And, after having had them for the weekend, could you cheerfully pat them on the rump as they head to the car containing the now-ex and her new love-interest. Then, for the next two weeks, before you see them again, coming home to an empty house.
Basically, don't give it up, work for it. The alternative is truly horrible.
posted by veedubya at 10:57 AM on May 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
Is money/keeping-up-with-the-Joneses a stressor your or the wife? Is the romantic situation with the wife satisfactory for both parties?
I'm completely out of my depth here, but these are two factors that I've observed are common when my married/long-term-relationship friends have spousal problems. Have you sat down with your wife after the kids have been put to sleep to talk about your feelings - do you feel that you are *able* to talk with your wife about them?
One of my friends went through a lot of marriage problems - very shortly after getting hitched - and it revolved around that he could not get employed in his preferred field and had to take less-than-satisfying jobs while his wife moved up the corporate ladder. It still hasn't been resolved but things have gotten better once he starting bringing in income and a (fairly nasty) skin condition cleared up resulting in an improvement in the intimate relationship department.
If you can't discuss frankly with your wife any issues/feelings that you might have, yes, get thee to a marriage counselor.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 10:57 AM on May 22, 2005
I'm completely out of my depth here, but these are two factors that I've observed are common when my married/long-term-relationship friends have spousal problems. Have you sat down with your wife after the kids have been put to sleep to talk about your feelings - do you feel that you are *able* to talk with your wife about them?
One of my friends went through a lot of marriage problems - very shortly after getting hitched - and it revolved around that he could not get employed in his preferred field and had to take less-than-satisfying jobs while his wife moved up the corporate ladder. It still hasn't been resolved but things have gotten better once he starting bringing in income and a (fairly nasty) skin condition cleared up resulting in an improvement in the intimate relationship department.
If you can't discuss frankly with your wife any issues/feelings that you might have, yes, get thee to a marriage counselor.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 10:57 AM on May 22, 2005
Few questions:
How old and what sex are your kids?
Have you gone to counseling?
What are the arguments usually about?
a) Money?
b) Sex?
c) Sharing the parenting work?
d) Anyfuckingthing? (Hot button pushing)
FYI, I am 0 for 2. First marriage, very very bad. Split up when our son was less than 6 months old. The marriage lasted seven years. Much anger and fighting. Second marriage: after eight years we worked with counselors over intimacy/sex issues. We lasted 14 years until my second wife had an affair and ended our marriage. Kids (twins, then 9, and son, 12) adapted reasonably well due to my being in close proximity and the divorce being as amicable as possible.
I miss my children terribly when they're not with me, and I had done everything I could to rescue my second marriage, but it takes two, yeah?
FWIW, do everything you can to stay together. Fighting and shit is bad for the kids, though. Know when it's enough.
posted by nj_subgenius at 11:05 AM on May 22, 2005
How old and what sex are your kids?
Have you gone to counseling?
What are the arguments usually about?
a) Money?
b) Sex?
c) Sharing the parenting work?
d) Anyfuckingthing? (Hot button pushing)
FYI, I am 0 for 2. First marriage, very very bad. Split up when our son was less than 6 months old. The marriage lasted seven years. Much anger and fighting. Second marriage: after eight years we worked with counselors over intimacy/sex issues. We lasted 14 years until my second wife had an affair and ended our marriage. Kids (twins, then 9, and son, 12) adapted reasonably well due to my being in close proximity and the divorce being as amicable as possible.
I miss my children terribly when they're not with me, and I had done everything I could to rescue my second marriage, but it takes two, yeah?
FWIW, do everything you can to stay together. Fighting and shit is bad for the kids, though. Know when it's enough.
posted by nj_subgenius at 11:05 AM on May 22, 2005
Many years ago, as I was heading into divorce, a friend shared his pleasure/pain scale:
+100: having sex
+50: eating an ice cream sundae
0: the emotional life of an accountant
-50: needing a root canal
-100: getting audited by the IRS
-197: being burned alive in a vat of boiling oil
-198: getting divorced
-199: being trapped in a truly unhappy, un-fixable marriage.
You want to make sure that you are really at -199 before you take yourself to -198.
posted by ambrosia at 11:07 AM on May 22, 2005 [2 favorites]
+100: having sex
+50: eating an ice cream sundae
0: the emotional life of an accountant
-50: needing a root canal
-100: getting audited by the IRS
-197: being burned alive in a vat of boiling oil
-198: getting divorced
-199: being trapped in a truly unhappy, un-fixable marriage.
You want to make sure that you are really at -199 before you take yourself to -198.
posted by ambrosia at 11:07 AM on May 22, 2005 [2 favorites]
I'm a 37 yo male who is divorced (married in his mid 20s.)
Just a couple of thoughts.
When was the last time you did some exploring of why you fell in love with your wife in the first place?
When was the last time that the two of you sat down and thougth about why you fight/guilt trips, etc.
First, it's likely you don't put your spouse in the best light. That's right, I'm calling you selfish. So is she. So are we all. Make it a point to quit being out 'just for yourself.'
Share this thread with your wife. Start off with the fact that you don't want your marriage to end....and that you miss her.
It's more than a mid life crisis. The seven year itch does exist, more than anecdotally.
The difference is, are you going to try to make your lives better. Speaking of which - how is your life outside the marriage? How is the job? The hobbies? It can't just be work/marriage/kids. You need some time too.
posted by filmgeek at 11:09 AM on May 22, 2005
Just a couple of thoughts.
When was the last time you did some exploring of why you fell in love with your wife in the first place?
When was the last time that the two of you sat down and thougth about why you fight/guilt trips, etc.
First, it's likely you don't put your spouse in the best light. That's right, I'm calling you selfish. So is she. So are we all. Make it a point to quit being out 'just for yourself.'
Share this thread with your wife. Start off with the fact that you don't want your marriage to end....and that you miss her.
It's more than a mid life crisis. The seven year itch does exist, more than anecdotally.
The difference is, are you going to try to make your lives better. Speaking of which - how is your life outside the marriage? How is the job? The hobbies? It can't just be work/marriage/kids. You need some time too.
posted by filmgeek at 11:09 AM on May 22, 2005
I love my kids dearly, and cannot leave them.
If this is true, then why are you even considering leaving your wife. You're talking nonsense here. Before you can even decide what it is you're going to do, you'd better think of something better than "I feel uneasy" or "I feel like an untamed animal" before messing up your life, the life of your wife and the lives of your two children.
I hate to say this, but you sound like a man looking for an excuse to go off and do something stupid. By all means do this, but cut the bullshit "Am I going through a midlife crisis" nonsense.
As for the resentment / guilt trips. Stop it. You made / agreed with the decisions, you're the one at fault.
Pull yourself together, stop lying to yourself and get on with whatever is is you need to do to give your kids what you want to give them.
posted by seanyboy at 11:10 AM on May 22, 2005
If this is true, then why are you even considering leaving your wife. You're talking nonsense here. Before you can even decide what it is you're going to do, you'd better think of something better than "I feel uneasy" or "I feel like an untamed animal" before messing up your life, the life of your wife and the lives of your two children.
I hate to say this, but you sound like a man looking for an excuse to go off and do something stupid. By all means do this, but cut the bullshit "Am I going through a midlife crisis" nonsense.
As for the resentment / guilt trips. Stop it. You made / agreed with the decisions, you're the one at fault.
Pull yourself together, stop lying to yourself and get on with whatever is is you need to do to give your kids what you want to give them.
posted by seanyboy at 11:10 AM on May 22, 2005
ambrosia nails it, it really is that simple. Getting divorced sucks, so make sure that your marriage will always suck more before doing it.
posted by Eamon at 11:16 AM on May 22, 2005
posted by Eamon at 11:16 AM on May 22, 2005
Whoa, seanyboy. Cut your crap.
Judge not.
PS: I hate no anonymous responses! (Matt, pony in aisle six)
posted by nj_subgenius at 11:17 AM on May 22, 2005
Judge not.
PS: I hate no anonymous responses! (Matt, pony in aisle six)
posted by nj_subgenius at 11:17 AM on May 22, 2005
Speaking as the child of divorced parents...
First off, what's best for children is a stress-free household. If that means [Mummy|Daddy] and [Mummy|Daddy] have to get divorced, then so be it. Children are infinitely adaptable. And if you can show (get a good lawyer if it comes to this) that you're a good parent as well, this two-weekends-out-of-four bullshit won't happen. My younger sister and I spent two weeks at each house; ParentSet1 would drop us at school Friday morning, ParentSet2 would pick us up after school. Reverse two weeks later. Holidays were handled carefully; one year would be Christmas Eve/Christmas Day at Set1, then the evening of the 25th and all of the 26th at Set2. NYE, birthdays, thanksgiving, etc, were handled similarly.
Before you get to that step, however, you need to do what other people have said:
1) Honestly evaluate why you're feeling this way, and why your feelings have changed. Maybe you just need a week by yourself, maybe you're looking at some of your similarly-aged single male friends and wishing you had their lives (you don't), maybe the whole job/house/kids financial pressures are getting unpleasant. Could be any number of things.
2) Sit down with your wife, preferably for a long time when you won't be interrupted, even more preferably when you've sent the kids to grandma's for the night. Nonthreateningly (and you know how that applies to your wife) tell her what you're feeling. Chances are very high that she's feeling some similar things, or at the very least wondering why you've become distant.
3) Marriage counselling. This is absobloodylutely essential. After eight years, both of you are likely too emotionally invested in one way or another to be able to sit back and discuss things rationally without some sort of person in between to keep things on track.
Hope that helps. If you want more perspective from a kid affected by divorce, my email is@gmail.com. Confidentiality assured, natch.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:54 AM on May 22, 2005 [2 favorites]
First off, what's best for children is a stress-free household. If that means [Mummy|Daddy] and [Mummy|Daddy] have to get divorced, then so be it. Children are infinitely adaptable. And if you can show (get a good lawyer if it comes to this) that you're a good parent as well, this two-weekends-out-of-four bullshit won't happen. My younger sister and I spent two weeks at each house; ParentSet1 would drop us at school Friday morning, ParentSet2 would pick us up after school. Reverse two weeks later. Holidays were handled carefully; one year would be Christmas Eve/Christmas Day at Set1, then the evening of the 25th and all of the 26th at Set2. NYE, birthdays, thanksgiving, etc, were handled similarly.
Before you get to that step, however, you need to do what other people have said:
1) Honestly evaluate why you're feeling this way, and why your feelings have changed. Maybe you just need a week by yourself, maybe you're looking at some of your similarly-aged single male friends and wishing you had their lives (you don't), maybe the whole job/house/kids financial pressures are getting unpleasant. Could be any number of things.
2) Sit down with your wife, preferably for a long time when you won't be interrupted, even more preferably when you've sent the kids to grandma's for the night. Nonthreateningly (and you know how that applies to your wife) tell her what you're feeling. Chances are very high that she's feeling some similar things, or at the very least wondering why you've become distant.
3) Marriage counselling. This is absobloodylutely essential. After eight years, both of you are likely too emotionally invested in one way or another to be able to sit back and discuss things rationally without some sort of person in between to keep things on track.
Hope that helps. If you want more perspective from a kid affected by divorce, my email is
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:54 AM on May 22, 2005 [2 favorites]
i'd go see a therapist/somebody myself too...is it regular life stuff (time passing, getting old, being stuck, trapped, etc?) or is it really the relationship with yr wife? i wouldn't worry about the kids or let guilt about that stop me from breaking up if it was really the best thing to do. Time to examine what's going on with you first, i think.
posted by amberglow at 11:56 AM on May 22, 2005
posted by amberglow at 11:56 AM on May 22, 2005
What bothers me is the whole "is it natural" question. Ain't nothing human beings do that's natural, buddy, but obviously a lot of people do in fact remain "coupled with another individual" for life. I agree with seanboy: the mammal argument does read like justification.
If the question is, can a human be satisfied in a lifetime committed monogamous relationship, the answer is yes. If the question is, can a person be satisfied in a relationship like you describe yours? I don't see how. I think the questions you really need to ask are, do I want to try to fix this relationship? Am I willing to work for that? Some hard work was involved bringing my 10+ year relationship back from the brink, and I'm very glad I did it. We needed to work on our communication and I needed to work on my depression. An old friend got disatisfied, fooled around, got divorced, was miserable and wanted to try to reconcile but she wouldn't. Another old friend had her get disatisfied and fool around on him, got divorced and I gotta say it seems like the best thing that ever happened to him - and I think their son is better off too.
Nobody here is going to be able to say whether your marriage can or should be salvaged, but I can tell you that regardless of what happens, it will be best for everyone concerned if you start with shelving the meaningless question of whether marriage is "natural," start being honest with your wife about how you feel, and accept that if you want to try to fix the relationship (because the problem here is not marriage per se, it is your marriage) it is going to take work from both of you, almost certainly professional help, and your accepting responsibility for both your part in upholding the marriage, and for your own personal happiness.
posted by nanojath at 12:11 PM on May 22, 2005
If the question is, can a human be satisfied in a lifetime committed monogamous relationship, the answer is yes. If the question is, can a person be satisfied in a relationship like you describe yours? I don't see how. I think the questions you really need to ask are, do I want to try to fix this relationship? Am I willing to work for that? Some hard work was involved bringing my 10+ year relationship back from the brink, and I'm very glad I did it. We needed to work on our communication and I needed to work on my depression. An old friend got disatisfied, fooled around, got divorced, was miserable and wanted to try to reconcile but she wouldn't. Another old friend had her get disatisfied and fool around on him, got divorced and I gotta say it seems like the best thing that ever happened to him - and I think their son is better off too.
Nobody here is going to be able to say whether your marriage can or should be salvaged, but I can tell you that regardless of what happens, it will be best for everyone concerned if you start with shelving the meaningless question of whether marriage is "natural," start being honest with your wife about how you feel, and accept that if you want to try to fix the relationship (because the problem here is not marriage per se, it is your marriage) it is going to take work from both of you, almost certainly professional help, and your accepting responsibility for both your part in upholding the marriage, and for your own personal happiness.
posted by nanojath at 12:11 PM on May 22, 2005
Gonna side just a bit with seanyboy on this one. Anon gives us almost nothing to go on, so his advice is no more off the mark than anyone else's, and it's all pretty great imo. I have a couple friends with chronic marital dissatisfaction who need to hear exactly this - they simply brought their existential dissatisfaction into an otherwise great marriage and all the therapy in the world wouldn't / won't substitute for a basic philisophical shift in their approach to life, commitment, and responsibility.
posted by docpops at 12:13 PM on May 22, 2005
posted by docpops at 12:13 PM on May 22, 2005
"...they simply brought their existential dissatisfaction into an otherwise great marriage."
The epitaph of many relationships, I think. Very sage, docpops.
And this is where the third person makes their appearance. After said dissatisfaction manifests, not before.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:32 PM on May 22, 2005
The epitaph of many relationships, I think. Very sage, docpops.
And this is where the third person makes their appearance. After said dissatisfaction manifests, not before.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:32 PM on May 22, 2005
I'm going to have to disagree with some of the other posters and say that conventional adult life, as currently constituted, is very unsatisfying for a fair number of people. Some are lucky enough to realize such before embarking. Some aren't. And while an attitude change might help, I don't think there is anything particularly wrong in not wanting to change that attitude, in locating the problem in the structure as opposed to yourself.
The issue now, though, is you drank that kool-aid. So I think it is worth asking yourself if salvaging this is better than trying to start all over again and remake a life that you find more satisfying. I suspect that you will choose salvaging this, but shelving the philosophical question is, in my opinion, a poor option. For words like "commitment" and "responsibility" to sound like more than "burden," I find I have to be philosophically engaged. So before I sat down to talk, I would try to understand my head first.
Also, I was feeling unsatisfied about the way my life was going when I came across the essay "The Concept of Experience" in n + 1. (The essay is only in the print version.) It definitely gave me a lot to think about. I know nothing about you, so I don't know, but I liked it.
On preview: i_am: "...they simply brought their existential dissatisfaction into an otherwise great marriage."
The epitaph of many relationships, I think. Very sage, docpops.
See, I don't think so. How great can a relationship be if it hasn't got room for genuine existential dissatisfaction? Being dissatisfied isn't a flaw.
posted by dame at 12:52 PM on May 22, 2005
The issue now, though, is you drank that kool-aid. So I think it is worth asking yourself if salvaging this is better than trying to start all over again and remake a life that you find more satisfying. I suspect that you will choose salvaging this, but shelving the philosophical question is, in my opinion, a poor option. For words like "commitment" and "responsibility" to sound like more than "burden," I find I have to be philosophically engaged. So before I sat down to talk, I would try to understand my head first.
Also, I was feeling unsatisfied about the way my life was going when I came across the essay "The Concept of Experience" in n + 1. (The essay is only in the print version.) It definitely gave me a lot to think about. I know nothing about you, so I don't know, but I liked it.
On preview: i_am: "...they simply brought their existential dissatisfaction into an otherwise great marriage."
The epitaph of many relationships, I think. Very sage, docpops.
See, I don't think so. How great can a relationship be if it hasn't got room for genuine existential dissatisfaction? Being dissatisfied isn't a flaw.
posted by dame at 12:52 PM on May 22, 2005
Any relationship has potential for existential dissatisfaction and lots more, dame. Don't be obtuse. The inferred point is that some people are adept at and will chronically blame their dissatisfaction(s) in life on something tangible - the spouse, the boss, the job, the lack of shiny toys. It's the boring old truth of happiness from within, and if not, be mature and self-aware enough to see that the solution isn't to be borne on the shoulders of another person.
It was only suggested that this sort of tendency may be at work, since it's common, human, normal, and entirely manageable if acknowledged, and was not levelled as criticism.
posted by docpops at 1:05 PM on May 22, 2005
It was only suggested that this sort of tendency may be at work, since it's common, human, normal, and entirely manageable if acknowledged, and was not levelled as criticism.
posted by docpops at 1:05 PM on May 22, 2005
It looks like you haven't told your wife just how bad you feel.
I wonder if that's adding to your stress. You're going through this big complicated messy emotional experience, and you're stuck keeping the whole thing a secret. That must be an enormous burden. Hell, having a reliable ally during big complicated messy emotional experiences is one of the biggest benefits of getting married in the first place. It must feel pretty awful denying yourself that benefit.
So this is just a guess, but I wonder if it would help to tell her what's on your mind — not even for the sake of honesty or clear communication (although those things are good too) but just to get it off your chest. You may feel a bit better about your marriage once there isn't this huge burdensome secret in the way.
posted by nebulawindphone at 1:09 PM on May 22, 2005
I wonder if that's adding to your stress. You're going through this big complicated messy emotional experience, and you're stuck keeping the whole thing a secret. That must be an enormous burden. Hell, having a reliable ally during big complicated messy emotional experiences is one of the biggest benefits of getting married in the first place. It must feel pretty awful denying yourself that benefit.
So this is just a guess, but I wonder if it would help to tell her what's on your mind — not even for the sake of honesty or clear communication (although those things are good too) but just to get it off your chest. You may feel a bit better about your marriage once there isn't this huge burdensome secret in the way.
posted by nebulawindphone at 1:09 PM on May 22, 2005
I suggest having a conversation with your wife for which the two of you agree on some ground rules: no yelling, no guilt-tripping, genuine effort to avoid pissing off the other person. Topic: why are we unable to get along? Before you do this, try (as filmgeek says) to remember why you fell in love with her in the first place. Try to get out of the familiar foxholes from which you snipe at each other and find a place you can coexist amicably in, at least for the duration of the conversation. My first wife and I were able to do this, and although we wound up getting divorced, it was a lot less painful than it might have been (I suppose, though it sure felt like -198 on ambrosia's scale). If you have to break up, you have to break up, but first make sure you tried your best to make it work. (And seriously, don't give in to that "midlife crisis" crap -- there is such a phenomenon, but a nagging itch doesn't justify smashing your marriage into smithereens.)
posted by languagehat at 1:33 PM on May 22, 2005
posted by languagehat at 1:33 PM on May 22, 2005
In terms of "lots of simmering resentment, guilt trips", check out The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman. This is based on extensive of research of what makes marriages succeed and fail. They have it pretty much down to a science, in terms of being able to predict which marriages will last and which wont by examining how a couple interacts for a short period of time. However, there is much room for optimism as the principles for success are very learnable. And even if you do end up opting out, you will be able to recognize what worked and what didn't, and learn from it. I think they also teach workshops.
posted by blueyellow at 1:41 PM on May 22, 2005
posted by blueyellow at 1:41 PM on May 22, 2005
Definitely do marriage counseling, especially if kids are involved... you need to be reeeeeal sure that it's unfixable. However, what helped me the most (I'm going through a divorce right now) was doing therapy by myself. I started going several months after we separated. It helped me to see past our reactions and drama, and allowed me to accept the fact that too much had happened and that we ultimately weren't going to make it. Having a professional perspective was invaluable.
posted by the_bone at 1:48 PM on May 22, 2005
posted by the_bone at 1:48 PM on May 22, 2005
That may have been what you meant docpops, but it wasn't what you said.
posted by dame at 1:57 PM on May 22, 2005
posted by dame at 1:57 PM on May 22, 2005
Share this thread with your wife.
Yeah, that will straighten things right up.
The advice to talk with your wife, made by several people, is sound. What is not sound advice is to disclose to her that you have posted in a public place the sentiment that "I don't want to be married any more". The discussion needs to be more diplomatic than that.
posted by yclipse at 2:05 PM on May 22, 2005
Yeah, that will straighten things right up.
The advice to talk with your wife, made by several people, is sound. What is not sound advice is to disclose to her that you have posted in a public place the sentiment that "I don't want to be married any more". The discussion needs to be more diplomatic than that.
posted by yclipse at 2:05 PM on May 22, 2005
Observations from a mid-thirties myself: It sucks to be in one's thirties. Really badly. My teens and twenties were a lot of fun and I have some great, specific memories. My thirties are a blur of work, laundry, baths, more work, homework, housework, vomit (theirs), migraines (mine), Target, the grocery store and more work. It's really easy to get sucked down into the grind when you are putting everything else ahead of taking care of yourself and your relationship.
My marriage struggles when we focus too much on the kids to the exclusion of the other, and when we get into petty, bitchy pissing contents over who is busier, whose job is harder, who unloaded the dishwasher last time, who was late, and who forgot to do what. There are days I really just want to run away and get my own apartment. And I'm sure he feels that way too, as I am no picnic. But I think we are both just really tired most of the time, not that we don't love each other.
I know we really love the concept of our family. At any given point there are strains among the people involved in that family. When your kids get older, maybe the tension will be between you and them rather than you and your wife.
I hesitate to say "you should do this," because I don't know you, but I guess I would ask that you separate yourself from the grind of this life and from feeling sorry for yourself and think about the goodness that can come from providing, and being part of, a family.
posted by SashaPT at 2:05 PM on May 22, 2005
My marriage struggles when we focus too much on the kids to the exclusion of the other, and when we get into petty, bitchy pissing contents over who is busier, whose job is harder, who unloaded the dishwasher last time, who was late, and who forgot to do what. There are days I really just want to run away and get my own apartment. And I'm sure he feels that way too, as I am no picnic. But I think we are both just really tired most of the time, not that we don't love each other.
I know we really love the concept of our family. At any given point there are strains among the people involved in that family. When your kids get older, maybe the tension will be between you and them rather than you and your wife.
I hesitate to say "you should do this," because I don't know you, but I guess I would ask that you separate yourself from the grind of this life and from feeling sorry for yourself and think about the goodness that can come from providing, and being part of, a family.
posted by SashaPT at 2:05 PM on May 22, 2005
I am divorced, we have a son.
If at all possible, take a vacation from your family. Perhaps all you need is a respite. Tell your wife what's wrong and then stay in a hotel on the other side of town for a week. No phone calls, no contact. Determine which of your feelings are true, and which are no more than societal pressure to behave a certain way.
Continue going to work and any other routines you may have outside the family.
If you do eventually divorce, it's not the end of the world. They will survive.
posted by mischief at 2:09 PM on May 22, 2005
If at all possible, take a vacation from your family. Perhaps all you need is a respite. Tell your wife what's wrong and then stay in a hotel on the other side of town for a week. No phone calls, no contact. Determine which of your feelings are true, and which are no more than societal pressure to behave a certain way.
Continue going to work and any other routines you may have outside the family.
If you do eventually divorce, it's not the end of the world. They will survive.
posted by mischief at 2:09 PM on May 22, 2005
Very few mammals mate for life - and I have to say that it doesn't feel very natural to me.
Yeah I have been through the same mental gymnastics. Literally, I think what's "natural" if you look to nature is: males rape females and bolt. They say that most of your sperm are designed not to find and fertilize the female egg but to fight off other males' sperm. Think about that for a second.
So perhaps marriage isn't all that "natural." BUT don't mistake the fact that YOU HAVE A CHOICE here. Looking to "what's natural" is just a quest for an excuse. You CAN do whatever you want to do, and as long as you can cope with the consequences of it and suffer the crisis on conscience it will take to live with the choice: FINE.
Just don't twist your head up trying to figure out what Nature wants you to do. You're an adult. It's your choice. To employ a cliche: the world is full of mammals, be a man.
posted by scarabic at 2:09 PM on May 22, 2005
Yeah I have been through the same mental gymnastics. Literally, I think what's "natural" if you look to nature is: males rape females and bolt. They say that most of your sperm are designed not to find and fertilize the female egg but to fight off other males' sperm. Think about that for a second.
So perhaps marriage isn't all that "natural." BUT don't mistake the fact that YOU HAVE A CHOICE here. Looking to "what's natural" is just a quest for an excuse. You CAN do whatever you want to do, and as long as you can cope with the consequences of it and suffer the crisis on conscience it will take to live with the choice: FINE.
Just don't twist your head up trying to figure out what Nature wants you to do. You're an adult. It's your choice. To employ a cliche: the world is full of mammals, be a man.
posted by scarabic at 2:09 PM on May 22, 2005
Oh yeah, I forgot:
Do not show your wife this thread.
This goes against most of what I hold sacred about relationships, as far as honesty goes, but it's a bad, bad idea.
Many people, most of them women (from what I've seen, I mean) will freak about intimate details (even if you haven't really provided many) of their lives being posted for just anybody to read. This will get the discussion off on a very bad foot, in my opinion. YMMV, etc.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:53 PM on May 22, 2005
Do not show your wife this thread.
This goes against most of what I hold sacred about relationships, as far as honesty goes, but it's a bad, bad idea.
Many people, most of them women (from what I've seen, I mean) will freak about intimate details (even if you haven't really provided many) of their lives being posted for just anybody to read. This will get the discussion off on a very bad foot, in my opinion. YMMV, etc.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:53 PM on May 22, 2005
Very few mammals mate for life - and I have to say that it doesn't feel very natural to me.
Very few mammals use tools, either. That doesn't mean we should bury our hammers and screwdrivers.
Many studies have shown that married people tend to live longer than single people. The reason? Because people don't work very well on their own, particularly when they get older.
Have you ever had a stint in your life when you weren't seeing someone? Remember coming home to the empty apartment, not talking to anyone all day except work colleagues, always being the one who has to do the dishes, never having someone take care of you when you're feeling under the weather... well, being 20-something and single is a lot easier than being 30- or 40-something and single.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:04 PM on May 22, 2005
Very few mammals use tools, either. That doesn't mean we should bury our hammers and screwdrivers.
Many studies have shown that married people tend to live longer than single people. The reason? Because people don't work very well on their own, particularly when they get older.
Have you ever had a stint in your life when you weren't seeing someone? Remember coming home to the empty apartment, not talking to anyone all day except work colleagues, always being the one who has to do the dishes, never having someone take care of you when you're feeling under the weather... well, being 20-something and single is a lot easier than being 30- or 40-something and single.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:04 PM on May 22, 2005
I constantly argue with my wife, and there is very little enjoyment in our relationship, just lots of simmering resentment, guilt trips etc.
Unfortunately, you can't tell us (since you're anonymous) if this is (a) primarily a communication problem that a couple can fall into (in which case, a third party like a marriage counselor may be a good idea, just to help the two of you out of the traps and ruts) , or (b) there are fundamental faults (you mention "guilt trips") - drinking, drugs, financial mistakes, affairs, etc., where one or both of you is going to have to resolve to do something very different in order to (re)gain the respect of the other, without which a good marriage is virtually impossible, or (c) there are (quite possibly) unrealistic expectations (you won't go out with the guys, she'll have dinner on the table at 6:30 every night even though she has a full-time job, whatever), in which case a marriage counselor is definitely called for (if you want to try to fix this - see above).
The fact that you don't mention major failings of your wife (and talk about being a horse that your wife - presumably -wants to bridle) makes me guess (unfairly, quite possibly) that many or most of the arguments are about what you do or don't know, rather than about what your wife does or should do (or not do). If so, you need to think really hard about whether you indeed should change. Some things (arguably), like "being more romantic" or "being more attentive", or "spending every evening with your family" can be read as "being someone other than who you are, that fits exactly what your wife thinks she is entitled to". Other things, if you're honest with yourself, are (arguably) "being a better person" - not lying, not getting drunk, being reliable, etc. These other things are going to be a problem in your life no matter who you spend it with.
In short, if you cut and run (arguably difficult if you want to have at least part custody of your kids), do you have some reason - other than, say, a hope for magic - to believe that the next long-term relationship will be any better?
posted by WestCoaster at 4:25 PM on May 22, 2005
Unfortunately, you can't tell us (since you're anonymous) if this is (a) primarily a communication problem that a couple can fall into (in which case, a third party like a marriage counselor may be a good idea, just to help the two of you out of the traps and ruts) , or (b) there are fundamental faults (you mention "guilt trips") - drinking, drugs, financial mistakes, affairs, etc., where one or both of you is going to have to resolve to do something very different in order to (re)gain the respect of the other, without which a good marriage is virtually impossible, or (c) there are (quite possibly) unrealistic expectations (you won't go out with the guys, she'll have dinner on the table at 6:30 every night even though she has a full-time job, whatever), in which case a marriage counselor is definitely called for (if you want to try to fix this - see above).
The fact that you don't mention major failings of your wife (and talk about being a horse that your wife - presumably -wants to bridle) makes me guess (unfairly, quite possibly) that many or most of the arguments are about what you do or don't know, rather than about what your wife does or should do (or not do). If so, you need to think really hard about whether you indeed should change. Some things (arguably), like "being more romantic" or "being more attentive", or "spending every evening with your family" can be read as "being someone other than who you are, that fits exactly what your wife thinks she is entitled to". Other things, if you're honest with yourself, are (arguably) "being a better person" - not lying, not getting drunk, being reliable, etc. These other things are going to be a problem in your life no matter who you spend it with.
In short, if you cut and run (arguably difficult if you want to have at least part custody of your kids), do you have some reason - other than, say, a hope for magic - to believe that the next long-term relationship will be any better?
posted by WestCoaster at 4:25 PM on May 22, 2005
So here's my personal view:
Unless you deal with the real cause of your "simmering resentment" and "guilt-trips", your next relationship will end up exactly where you are with your wife right now.
If you think it's the bridle of marriage that's trying to break you, then I think you'll have to find out the painful way that your current situation is nothing to do with your partner.
If, however, you're willing to recognise your part in a marriage that doesn't feel right, and to work on that, then you might just stand a chance for happiness.
You say you're looking for answers from men. Try this: Mankind Project. You'll get what you're looking for.
posted by Charon at 5:04 PM on May 22, 2005
Unless you deal with the real cause of your "simmering resentment" and "guilt-trips", your next relationship will end up exactly where you are with your wife right now.
If you think it's the bridle of marriage that's trying to break you, then I think you'll have to find out the painful way that your current situation is nothing to do with your partner.
If, however, you're willing to recognise your part in a marriage that doesn't feel right, and to work on that, then you might just stand a chance for happiness.
You say you're looking for answers from men. Try this: Mankind Project. You'll get what you're looking for.
posted by Charon at 5:04 PM on May 22, 2005
As the title of your question indicates, you realize that it's "natural" or "normal" to feel antsy at certain points in a marriage. And that may be the extent of the problem. If it is, counseling would probably help, but just waiting it out would probably work, too. The dissatisfaction may just pass away on its own. Sounds silly, but I've been through it a few times.
On the other hand, for some of us, being married is more of a trial than it's worth. Some of us just find that accommodating other people all the time is really, really hard. To parrot dame on this point, there's nothing wrong with you if you're one of those people. Others may try to make you feel that there is, but there isn't. It's "natural" for a certain percentage of the population to be more solitary and self-sufficient than the "norm," and for those people, marriage can be a very trying situation.
So, no answers or advice here, just a word of encouragement in case you're one of those people and are feeling beaten down by the marriage-minded majority. On the other hand, if you're not—if you think you want to be married, just not to her—I would advise you to seek counseling before doing anything rash.
And as a pertinent aside, I believe that I ran across an article recently that debunked the "married people are happier/live longer" myth. But I can't remember where...
posted by bricoleur at 5:32 PM on May 22, 2005
On the other hand, for some of us, being married is more of a trial than it's worth. Some of us just find that accommodating other people all the time is really, really hard. To parrot dame on this point, there's nothing wrong with you if you're one of those people. Others may try to make you feel that there is, but there isn't. It's "natural" for a certain percentage of the population to be more solitary and self-sufficient than the "norm," and for those people, marriage can be a very trying situation.
So, no answers or advice here, just a word of encouragement in case you're one of those people and are feeling beaten down by the marriage-minded majority. On the other hand, if you're not—if you think you want to be married, just not to her—I would advise you to seek counseling before doing anything rash.
And as a pertinent aside, I believe that I ran across an article recently that debunked the "married people are happier/live longer" myth. But I can't remember where...
posted by bricoleur at 5:32 PM on May 22, 2005
I think the original post could have been written by a thousan d different people. I didn't write it, but I feel like I could have and it's a question I ask myself, at 38, probably too frequently.
I'm amazed at how preachy and judgemental everyone is being in this thread. I wouldn't have expected it. But I am going to buy the Gottman book. And again, I am not the original poster, but I think it's a common problem.
I'd love to hear stories from people who were in the same situation and worked past it.
posted by mecran01 at 9:31 PM on May 22, 2005
I'm amazed at how preachy and judgemental everyone is being in this thread. I wouldn't have expected it. But I am going to buy the Gottman book. And again, I am not the original poster, but I think it's a common problem.
I'd love to hear stories from people who were in the same situation and worked past it.
posted by mecran01 at 9:31 PM on May 22, 2005
-198: getting divorced
-199: being trapped in a truly unhappy, un-fixable marriage.
That scale is way off base. Divorce is brutal, but it's not one point from being trapped in an unhappy/unfixable marriage. One can eventually lead to happiness, the other can not.
Have you ever had a stint in your life when you weren't seeing someone? Remember coming home to the empty apartment, not talking to anyone all day except work colleagues, always being the one who has to do the dishes, never having someone take care of you when you're feeling under the weather...
You can also come home to someone you despise, not talk to them, or worse, argue, argue over who does the dishes, and basically completely ignore each other.
I'm not sure where the idea came from that being part of a miserable couple is better than being alone. The relationship either makes you happy, or it does not. Comparing being married to being single is of no use.
posted by justgary at 12:42 AM on May 23, 2005
-199: being trapped in a truly unhappy, un-fixable marriage.
That scale is way off base. Divorce is brutal, but it's not one point from being trapped in an unhappy/unfixable marriage. One can eventually lead to happiness, the other can not.
Have you ever had a stint in your life when you weren't seeing someone? Remember coming home to the empty apartment, not talking to anyone all day except work colleagues, always being the one who has to do the dishes, never having someone take care of you when you're feeling under the weather...
You can also come home to someone you despise, not talk to them, or worse, argue, argue over who does the dishes, and basically completely ignore each other.
I'm not sure where the idea came from that being part of a miserable couple is better than being alone. The relationship either makes you happy, or it does not. Comparing being married to being single is of no use.
posted by justgary at 12:42 AM on May 23, 2005
You made a vow. For better or worse, sickness or health. No one has an ideal marriage, but if you take your vow seriously, you can have a good, even great, marriage.
My wife suffered from depression for several years. Things are much better now, but there have been times when I've thought about what life would be like after ending my marriage. I thank God now I didn't go any further than thinking about it.
Think about what you are considering.... not from the standpoint of some fantasy life after marriage, but from the standpoint of what it will really be like. Meals alone, alienated from your kids, people looking at you and thinking of you as a creepy divorced guy. Surely your wife has some redeeming properties you find attractive. You can make this work. See a marriage counselor. Good luck.
Oh... and the thirties, with small kids at home, is probably the most stressful time in a marriage. Never enough sleep, never enough time for each other. Hang in there. It will get better. Really.
posted by Doohickie at 4:35 AM on May 23, 2005
My wife suffered from depression for several years. Things are much better now, but there have been times when I've thought about what life would be like after ending my marriage. I thank God now I didn't go any further than thinking about it.
Think about what you are considering.... not from the standpoint of some fantasy life after marriage, but from the standpoint of what it will really be like. Meals alone, alienated from your kids, people looking at you and thinking of you as a creepy divorced guy. Surely your wife has some redeeming properties you find attractive. You can make this work. See a marriage counselor. Good luck.
Oh... and the thirties, with small kids at home, is probably the most stressful time in a marriage. Never enough sleep, never enough time for each other. Hang in there. It will get better. Really.
posted by Doohickie at 4:35 AM on May 23, 2005
Some relationships are just unfixable. You have 40+ more years to live in your life. Don't waste them. Move on if that's what it takes.
posted by eas98 at 7:06 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by eas98 at 7:06 AM on May 23, 2005
My wife suffered from depression for several years. Things are much better now, but there have been times when I've thought about what life would be like after ending my marriage. I thank God now I didn't go any further than thinking about it.
I think this may be going on more often than we realize. Also, I remember reading a study of married couples who were having serious problems, and the ones that stuck it out ten years later were fairly happy, eventually, whereas the ones who didn't reported being less happy than when in the midst of their marital problems.
I also want to reiterate that from everything I can tell, it's really common to feel trapped the way you do, and I don't think it means you're a bad person nor does it mean that the problems aren't potentially fixable. Of course, kids are like canaries in a coalmine. When there's stress in the air, even if you aren't vocally arguing, they sense it and start acting out.
posted by mecran01 at 8:34 AM on May 23, 2005
I think this may be going on more often than we realize. Also, I remember reading a study of married couples who were having serious problems, and the ones that stuck it out ten years later were fairly happy, eventually, whereas the ones who didn't reported being less happy than when in the midst of their marital problems.
I also want to reiterate that from everything I can tell, it's really common to feel trapped the way you do, and I don't think it means you're a bad person nor does it mean that the problems aren't potentially fixable. Of course, kids are like canaries in a coalmine. When there's stress in the air, even if you aren't vocally arguing, they sense it and start acting out.
posted by mecran01 at 8:34 AM on May 23, 2005
Your marriage won't get better on its own; they have to be made better. Ideally this will be accomplished with your wife's help, but if she won't help, then it's up to you. So stick it out, exhaust idea you can think of. Because you promised to, and because of the sense of achievement you'll have when you succeed. Overcoming obstacles is a sure recipe for personal growth, and avoiding them is a recipe for personal stagnation. If you fail, well, you'll have learned some things about yourself, and you can end the marriage with the knowledge that you did, in fact, try everything to save it.
posted by kindall at 9:09 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by kindall at 9:09 AM on May 23, 2005
Please note that Charon's link seem to be a very expensive camp to recruit you into the Christian fold and I strongly recommend you stay far away from it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:52 AM on May 23, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:52 AM on May 23, 2005
Way back when, there was a brilliant and very funny guy named Eric Berne who wrote a book called Games People Play, which started a branch of therapy called Transactional Analysis. Basically, the book was about the sort of scripts that people play out to confirm their view of the world and themselves. One game I remember was called something like Trading Stamps.
Probably many people here at MF are too young to remember them, but way *way* back, stores used to give these special stamps (S & H Green Stamps were my mom's favorites) with each purchase, and you'd put them in stamp books and ultimately trade in the stamp books for prizes. Some people would just collect a few stamps and turn them in for little prizes, and others would save for a long long time and get a big prize (my mom got a color TV! - it must have taken years to get that many!).
Anyway, Berne used to say that there's a similar thing that goes on with some couples. Each time you have an argument, that little bit of resentment is like a trading stamp. And you can collect those resentments and angers and trade them in for prizes. Just a few and you get to trade them in for a rant, or slamming the door or something. Save them up for a long time, and you get to trade them in for an affair, or a divorce, or even for a suicide or homicide. *And* you get to say it's not your fault! It's nature, or the other person, or whatever. That's the prize in the trading stamps game.
The only *real* way to win is to stop playing the game. If you *really* want to win, you can't use all those resentments and angers you've hoarded away. You as a couple have got to throw them all away and find new ways to relate, new currency you can use in your relationship.
posted by jasper411 at 10:22 AM on May 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
Probably many people here at MF are too young to remember them, but way *way* back, stores used to give these special stamps (S & H Green Stamps were my mom's favorites) with each purchase, and you'd put them in stamp books and ultimately trade in the stamp books for prizes. Some people would just collect a few stamps and turn them in for little prizes, and others would save for a long long time and get a big prize (my mom got a color TV! - it must have taken years to get that many!).
Anyway, Berne used to say that there's a similar thing that goes on with some couples. Each time you have an argument, that little bit of resentment is like a trading stamp. And you can collect those resentments and angers and trade them in for prizes. Just a few and you get to trade them in for a rant, or slamming the door or something. Save them up for a long time, and you get to trade them in for an affair, or a divorce, or even for a suicide or homicide. *And* you get to say it's not your fault! It's nature, or the other person, or whatever. That's the prize in the trading stamps game.
The only *real* way to win is to stop playing the game. If you *really* want to win, you can't use all those resentments and angers you've hoarded away. You as a couple have got to throw them all away and find new ways to relate, new currency you can use in your relationship.
posted by jasper411 at 10:22 AM on May 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
Your marriage won't get better on its own; they have to be made better.
I don't fully agree with that. Sometimes it's not the marriage that's the problem; sometimes it's just life. You think it's the marriage, because it is a prominent part of your life. But it might be dealing with the realization that you can't always get what you want.* It could be that you don't have enough time to do the things you would like to do. The marriage is but one contributing factor in these sorts of things, but ending the marriage doesn't necessarily fix things. Sometimes, just staying together is all you need to do. Dissatisfaction gives way to contentment once you decide that despite the flaws in the marriage, you're going to stick with your vows. Time eventually heals the wounds, simply because you adjust to each other.
If there is a specific problem, work to fix it. If it is simply a feeling of discontentment, just ride things out. Early in my marriage, I had that trapped feeling and wondered if I had married too soon. This came to a peak every Friday when my coworkers made plans for the weekend and asked if I wanted to go out to the bar with them or whatever. Once, I replied, "No.... I gotta go home to the wife." One of the guys replied that the only reason the single guys went to the bar is that they had no wife to go home to and that they envied me (which was funny because I envied them!) Anyway, that one-line statement changed my view. Consider what you have. It isn't perfect, but it's probably better than lots of people have.
------------------
*But if you try, sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
posted by Doohickie at 9:28 AM on May 27, 2005
I don't fully agree with that. Sometimes it's not the marriage that's the problem; sometimes it's just life. You think it's the marriage, because it is a prominent part of your life. But it might be dealing with the realization that you can't always get what you want.* It could be that you don't have enough time to do the things you would like to do. The marriage is but one contributing factor in these sorts of things, but ending the marriage doesn't necessarily fix things. Sometimes, just staying together is all you need to do. Dissatisfaction gives way to contentment once you decide that despite the flaws in the marriage, you're going to stick with your vows. Time eventually heals the wounds, simply because you adjust to each other.
If there is a specific problem, work to fix it. If it is simply a feeling of discontentment, just ride things out. Early in my marriage, I had that trapped feeling and wondered if I had married too soon. This came to a peak every Friday when my coworkers made plans for the weekend and asked if I wanted to go out to the bar with them or whatever. Once, I replied, "No.... I gotta go home to the wife." One of the guys replied that the only reason the single guys went to the bar is that they had no wife to go home to and that they envied me (which was funny because I envied them!) Anyway, that one-line statement changed my view. Consider what you have. It isn't perfect, but it's probably better than lots of people have.
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*But if you try, sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
posted by Doohickie at 9:28 AM on May 27, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Nelson at 10:50 AM on May 22, 2005