Anybody have any experience with multi-point locks for French doors?
April 15, 2011 5:23 PM Subscribe
Anybody have any experience with multi-point locks for French doors?
I'm having some French doors made up, and am interested in possibly using a "multi-point" locking system. This is a system in which a central handle operates top & bottom bolts, plus a couple of hook-type things, as well as a central mortice lock.
The usual approach in these parts is to have separate manual bolts at the top & bottom of the doors, and as a central mortice lock. To me, this seems to involve too much hassle operating all these separate parts - especially as there will actually be two sets of French doors, one glass & the other flyscreen / security mesh.
The multi-point system is made by a German company & my memory of German doors & windows is that they're always really easy to operate, they seal well, feel nice & solid, etc.
My question is...if anybody has lived in a house with similar kinds of multi-point locks, what was your experience like? (eg are they easy to use, were they reliable, did tiny movements or changes in the door or frame put them totally out of alignment, or any other observations you might have...?)
I get the feeling that these kinds of things are more common in Europe, the UK or perhaps North America, and can't get a lot of reliable advice down under.
I'm having some French doors made up, and am interested in possibly using a "multi-point" locking system. This is a system in which a central handle operates top & bottom bolts, plus a couple of hook-type things, as well as a central mortice lock.
The usual approach in these parts is to have separate manual bolts at the top & bottom of the doors, and as a central mortice lock. To me, this seems to involve too much hassle operating all these separate parts - especially as there will actually be two sets of French doors, one glass & the other flyscreen / security mesh.
The multi-point system is made by a German company & my memory of German doors & windows is that they're always really easy to operate, they seal well, feel nice & solid, etc.
My question is...if anybody has lived in a house with similar kinds of multi-point locks, what was your experience like? (eg are they easy to use, were they reliable, did tiny movements or changes in the door or frame put them totally out of alignment, or any other observations you might have...?)
I get the feeling that these kinds of things are more common in Europe, the UK or perhaps North America, and can't get a lot of reliable advice down under.
I love crémones. Ever since coming to France, I've always had them, whether on windows or French doors. My last place was built in the 1800s and had the original crémones, they still worked beautifully, and I opened the French doors every day.
My current place was built in 1953. The only problem I've encountered has been with a handle fitting, but again, we're talking about the original 1953 hardware; things have changed nowadays. It was easily replaceable by a nail, heh. Indeed, the old ones' handles are held on with a nail through the handle+crémone hole. That's the weakest part of the setup, but modern ones use a different solution and work a lot more cleanly. I open and close my windows and French doors several times a day and never have a problem.
They're also great if you ever want to keep just one door closed, for instance if you have a cat coming in and out in colder (or hotter) weather. I close the one door and then use a door stop to keep the other one open to kitty-width in winter; kitty is happy with the setup. (He does have a cat flap, but I need to keep an ear out for his patio doings since he occasionally gets the urge to redecorate the stones and/or prune my plants.)
posted by fraula at 1:30 AM on April 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
My current place was built in 1953. The only problem I've encountered has been with a handle fitting, but again, we're talking about the original 1953 hardware; things have changed nowadays. It was easily replaceable by a nail, heh. Indeed, the old ones' handles are held on with a nail through the handle+crémone hole. That's the weakest part of the setup, but modern ones use a different solution and work a lot more cleanly. I open and close my windows and French doors several times a day and never have a problem.
They're also great if you ever want to keep just one door closed, for instance if you have a cat coming in and out in colder (or hotter) weather. I close the one door and then use a door stop to keep the other one open to kitty-width in winter; kitty is happy with the setup. (He does have a cat flap, but I need to keep an ear out for his patio doings since he occasionally gets the urge to redecorate the stones and/or prune my plants.)
posted by fraula at 1:30 AM on April 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Last year I installed some french doors made by "Eagle" - a super-high-end window and door company that was purchased by Andersen a few years ago. The doors had the type of multi-point locking system that you're describing, and it worked beautifully. My assumption would be that, as long as this is a high quality door to start with, it should work reliably for decades if it is installed properly. A poor installation could ruin a perfectly good door, or cause it to function improperly. Here is the Eagle site, if you want to compare...
posted by Glendale at 4:43 PM on April 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Glendale at 4:43 PM on April 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the answers! "Cremone bolts" is a term that I hadn't come across in my research, but they're exactly what constitutes about half of the locking mechanism. Nice to know that they've been around since at least the 1800s, so I guess that part is a proven sort of technology.
The system described by Glendale is closer to what we're looking at, though. For whatever it's worth (eg in case anybody stumbles across this question in future) here's a link to the Winkhaus site with the products in question.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:19 PM on April 16, 2011
The system described by Glendale is closer to what we're looking at, though. For whatever it's worth (eg in case anybody stumbles across this question in future) here's a link to the Winkhaus site with the products in question.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:19 PM on April 16, 2011
This thread is pretty old, but I just came across it now looking for the same solution. I'll look through the links because I would love an after-market multi-point latch for the french doors I'm building (the goal is to have each door independantly openable, but only one lock).
Here's another option: Take a look at "automatic flush bolts" [pdf]. These are installed in the "passive" side of the door and automatically insert bolts top and bottom when you close the "active door". While this does let you use a single deadbolt, the active door must be opened first. OTOH, they appear to be more commercially available this side of the pond than multi-point hardware.
posted by Popular Ethics at 3:33 PM on December 21, 2011
Here's another option: Take a look at "automatic flush bolts" [pdf]. These are installed in the "passive" side of the door and automatically insert bolts top and bottom when you close the "active door". While this does let you use a single deadbolt, the active door must be opened first. OTOH, they appear to be more commercially available this side of the pond than multi-point hardware.
posted by Popular Ethics at 3:33 PM on December 21, 2011
(It's frustrating to find someone who is having the same problem without solution. Automatic flush bolts give you the single lock, but the doors cannot be independently opened. Cremone bolts let the doors be independently opened, but they both must be locked - So close!)
posted by Popular Ethics at 3:48 PM on December 21, 2011
posted by Popular Ethics at 3:48 PM on December 21, 2011
Here's a multipoint lock that will fit the bill, but the only description I can find is from the manufacturer - I can't find a retailer :(
posted by Popular Ethics at 4:03 PM on December 21, 2011
posted by Popular Ethics at 4:03 PM on December 21, 2011
Response by poster: This thread just popped up on my recent activity...we ended up getting the Winkhaus locks, and so far they're great.
A few notes, for what they're worth:
- The active door can be opened on its own, and it actually needs to be opened if you want to get the passive door open. This was known to us, and we have a false mullion on the active door to stop drafts so there never would have been a way for both doors to be completely independently openable in any case. We just made sure we knew exactly which side should be the more often opened active door.
- The false mullion was needed because rebated doors couldn't be done. According to diagrams I had seen, it ought to have been possible, but on 40mm thick doors it would have made one edge of the rebate too thin & vulnerable to damage, if that makes sense.
- The builders were able to install the locks into pre-built doors fresh from the joinery. This involved cutting a channel along the edge of the door as well as a couple of deeper holes for the mortice & hooks, and then the lock mechanism goes inside, with a metal cover plate all the way from top to bottom (with holes for the mortice & hooks). The manufacturer recommended using a special jig for this, but the importer wasn't able to source one, or let us know where one might be rented from. The problems of choosing a niche product, hey?
- To operate the lock, the handles need to be able to move upwards (to engage the lock) as well as downwards (to disengage the lock & open the door). This turned out to be a bit of a headache, as we had assumed that any old handle set would work, but apparently not. For our local market, handles only ever go downwards (or upwards, if you install them upside down, I guess) and are controlled / sprung by their roses. I would have thought that the lock mechanism would determine the handle movement, but we went to at least half a dozen locksmiths & they looked at us as if we were aliens when we described that we needed handles that can go in both directions. In the end we got some nice German handles & backing plates from the same importer who sold us the locks, which turned out well because they thought each box had a pair of handles but they only had one in each, so they slowed us down but gave us all the locks & backing plates at cost price.
Wow, that was a lot of rambling. Anyway...the only slight downside so far is that the mechanism can rattle around a bit when you open the door fast, so it's not 100% silky smooth, but that's OK.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:29 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
A few notes, for what they're worth:
- The active door can be opened on its own, and it actually needs to be opened if you want to get the passive door open. This was known to us, and we have a false mullion on the active door to stop drafts so there never would have been a way for both doors to be completely independently openable in any case. We just made sure we knew exactly which side should be the more often opened active door.
- The false mullion was needed because rebated doors couldn't be done. According to diagrams I had seen, it ought to have been possible, but on 40mm thick doors it would have made one edge of the rebate too thin & vulnerable to damage, if that makes sense.
- The builders were able to install the locks into pre-built doors fresh from the joinery. This involved cutting a channel along the edge of the door as well as a couple of deeper holes for the mortice & hooks, and then the lock mechanism goes inside, with a metal cover plate all the way from top to bottom (with holes for the mortice & hooks). The manufacturer recommended using a special jig for this, but the importer wasn't able to source one, or let us know where one might be rented from. The problems of choosing a niche product, hey?
- To operate the lock, the handles need to be able to move upwards (to engage the lock) as well as downwards (to disengage the lock & open the door). This turned out to be a bit of a headache, as we had assumed that any old handle set would work, but apparently not. For our local market, handles only ever go downwards (or upwards, if you install them upside down, I guess) and are controlled / sprung by their roses. I would have thought that the lock mechanism would determine the handle movement, but we went to at least half a dozen locksmiths & they looked at us as if we were aliens when we described that we needed handles that can go in both directions. In the end we got some nice German handles & backing plates from the same importer who sold us the locks, which turned out well because they thought each box had a pair of handles but they only had one in each, so they slowed us down but gave us all the locks & backing plates at cost price.
Wow, that was a lot of rambling. Anyway...the only slight downside so far is that the mechanism can rattle around a bit when you open the door fast, so it's not 100% silky smooth, but that's OK.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:29 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
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They are reliable, but this is an interior door that gets opened and closed only every few days. I like how it operates and it's a big convenience to turn a doorknob instead of manually release latches top and bottom. The point where the rod enters the door frame at top and bottom is the challenge; we had some alignment issues at the start and even now the rod sometimes catches just a bit. No big deal, but not perfect.
Our contractor (in the US, California) had a hard time figuring out how to install them. The biggest confusion was the rods were too long; it took them awhile to decide they could just trim them down.
posted by Nelson at 5:45 PM on April 15, 2011 [1 favorite]