Grad-school-Filter-Again:
February 27, 2011 5:52 PM Subscribe
I've been accepted to PhD programs in neuroscience at NYU, University of Chicago, and into an MSc program in medical biophysics (with a heavy neuroscience focus) at the University of Toronto (most people reclassify into PhDs).
The difficulty: 1) No one program is exactly perfect. 2) My partner-in-crime is a med student in Toronto, and she will be in Canada for minimum the next 6 years. So what's my best move, considering
1. I hope for a career in research (academia/industry) or science writing.
2. I could see myself spending my life with this girl (but that said, I am 25, for what it is worth)
3. I am concerned that staying in Toronto will limit my career opportunities
NB: You do rotations at all schools, so a thesis supervisor isn't in place yet anywhere, except maybe Toronto.
The longer version...
Pros/Cons:
NYU - pros: diverse research opportunities, big focus on career-development, lots of institutional support, students seem dedicated
Cons: feels like an intense, workaholic environment; didn't click with faculty I interviewed with enough to be in their labs
Chicago:
Pros: program is a really good fit, students seem really happy, lots of faculty i am interested in, lots of institutional support
Cons: students don't seem that interested in science, not sure what they do afterwards
Toronto:
pros: know I could have a really great supervisor, lots of good research hospitals
cons: lack of neuroscience program speaks to a potential lack of institutional support, mixture of great and not-so great students
Part of me thinks it doesn't matter: if you're going to do good work, you'll do it no matter where you are. And part of me thinks that the Canadian in me just worries that Canadian schools will always been considered "worse" than American schools, even when the research quality is the same.
I am worried about my ability to do long distance for 5 years. I also don't know that I want to spend the rest of my 20s not with my SO. The extra difficulty is that even if I stay in toronto, the medical residency 'match' system may take my SO elsewhere (though she has a pretty good chance of matching in Toronto). What are the odds a relationship could survive 5 years long distance?
Another option would be to do an MSc in Toronto, and see where things stand. But Is it harder to get into a PhD program again if I do a MSc. first? Or could it be easier?
Am I diminishing my chances for a career in neuroscience research if I stay in Toronto?
I need some outsider advice!
throwaway email: science.or.love@gmail.com
NB: You do rotations at all schools, so a thesis supervisor isn't in place yet anywhere, except maybe Toronto.
The longer version...
Pros/Cons:
NYU - pros: diverse research opportunities, big focus on career-development, lots of institutional support, students seem dedicated
Cons: feels like an intense, workaholic environment; didn't click with faculty I interviewed with enough to be in their labs
Chicago:
Pros: program is a really good fit, students seem really happy, lots of faculty i am interested in, lots of institutional support
Cons: students don't seem that interested in science, not sure what they do afterwards
Toronto:
pros: know I could have a really great supervisor, lots of good research hospitals
cons: lack of neuroscience program speaks to a potential lack of institutional support, mixture of great and not-so great students
Part of me thinks it doesn't matter: if you're going to do good work, you'll do it no matter where you are. And part of me thinks that the Canadian in me just worries that Canadian schools will always been considered "worse" than American schools, even when the research quality is the same.
I am worried about my ability to do long distance for 5 years. I also don't know that I want to spend the rest of my 20s not with my SO. The extra difficulty is that even if I stay in toronto, the medical residency 'match' system may take my SO elsewhere (though she has a pretty good chance of matching in Toronto). What are the odds a relationship could survive 5 years long distance?
Another option would be to do an MSc in Toronto, and see where things stand. But Is it harder to get into a PhD program again if I do a MSc. first? Or could it be easier?
Am I diminishing my chances for a career in neuroscience research if I stay in Toronto?
I need some outsider advice!
throwaway email: science.or.love@gmail.com
Do you have the same level of funding support from all three?
posted by LobsterMitten at 6:33 PM on February 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten at 6:33 PM on February 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
What's your stipend from each?
posted by The Michael The at 6:34 PM on February 27, 2011
posted by The Michael The at 6:34 PM on February 27, 2011
Oh, duh, you're anonymous. Ok - take into account the financial support, do not consider unsupported offers.
It sounds like your real choice is between Chicago for career and Toronto for love. Think about the likely jobs that you'll get coming out of each place, or the likely next steps - postdocs, writing-fellow positions, etc. Do you want to go into research or science writing? Sounds like research will be harder coming from Toronto, but could science writing still be a possibility coming from Toronto?
If you leave Toronto it will be a challenge to the relationship for sure. Five years long distance? It will suck and it's the rare relationship that can survive it.
Of course, med school is a challenge in itself, and the subsequent stages of medical credentialing are no picnic either. You'll be spending a lot of time apart even if you're in the same city. And Chicago and Toronto are pretty close, in the big picture, so visiting will not be a crazy difficult thing.
If you choose a program that closes specific career doors for you, be sure that the relationship is worth closing those doors. You say "I can see spending the rest of my life with her" - but some people say this loosely. As you consider this choice, don't be too quick to say that - think hard and honestly, to yourself, about whether you would marry her and it would be a good decision (do you get along with each other's families, are you both at your best around each other, do you share compatible long-term goals and ideas about what your lives will be like). If you change your career plans for her it is a bigtime commitment. Be brutally honest with yourself about how you would feel if you woke up tomorrow and five years had passed, you were in some non-research job in Toronto and were married to your partner - would you think "ok, good" or would you think "oof"?
It is okay to value your career more highly, to go to Chicago and and try to make the relationship work long distance. It is also okay to value this relationship more, and find a career path that will work with the relationship. There are good outcomes possible with either choice, but only you can decide; my sympathy because it's a very hard decision.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:01 PM on February 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
It sounds like your real choice is between Chicago for career and Toronto for love. Think about the likely jobs that you'll get coming out of each place, or the likely next steps - postdocs, writing-fellow positions, etc. Do you want to go into research or science writing? Sounds like research will be harder coming from Toronto, but could science writing still be a possibility coming from Toronto?
If you leave Toronto it will be a challenge to the relationship for sure. Five years long distance? It will suck and it's the rare relationship that can survive it.
Of course, med school is a challenge in itself, and the subsequent stages of medical credentialing are no picnic either. You'll be spending a lot of time apart even if you're in the same city. And Chicago and Toronto are pretty close, in the big picture, so visiting will not be a crazy difficult thing.
If you choose a program that closes specific career doors for you, be sure that the relationship is worth closing those doors. You say "I can see spending the rest of my life with her" - but some people say this loosely. As you consider this choice, don't be too quick to say that - think hard and honestly, to yourself, about whether you would marry her and it would be a good decision (do you get along with each other's families, are you both at your best around each other, do you share compatible long-term goals and ideas about what your lives will be like). If you change your career plans for her it is a bigtime commitment. Be brutally honest with yourself about how you would feel if you woke up tomorrow and five years had passed, you were in some non-research job in Toronto and were married to your partner - would you think "ok, good" or would you think "oof"?
It is okay to value your career more highly, to go to Chicago and and try to make the relationship work long distance. It is also okay to value this relationship more, and find a career path that will work with the relationship. There are good outcomes possible with either choice, but only you can decide; my sympathy because it's a very hard decision.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:01 PM on February 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also - it depends a lot on what you want to do exactly. Do you have a clear project in mind? If so, that's GREAT. If there's a great supervisor at Toronto, and there are resources there for you to pursue the kind of project that you want to do - even if other students aren't doing that kind of research - Toronto might enable you to do your thing, build your own program that supports your project. You will have to be focused and really make it happen yourself, if it's anything like the situations I've seen (not much faculty support, no existing structures), but I've seen driven people succeed at this. (Again a time to be honest with yourself about whether you are focused enough to make it happen without much help.) Maybe you can talk to more grad students at Toronto or your future supervisor about how the path for a project like yours would go?
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:10 PM on February 27, 2011
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:10 PM on February 27, 2011
You have a better chance of coming back to an academic job in Toronto with a degree from Chicago. (Even Canadian academia is snobby).
And relationships can handle going long distance. Skype with camera helps.
posted by jb at 7:31 PM on February 27, 2011
And relationships can handle going long distance. Skype with camera helps.
posted by jb at 7:31 PM on February 27, 2011
If you chose all these places, clearly you've thought about it and have decided that following your career is important enough to have to some day deal with this dilemma. I'm in a similar situation, and I've made the decision to not even apply to programs that wouldn't allow my partner to move with me and keep his job. The fact that you did makes me think that you've already made your choice.
What are the odds a relationship could survive 5 years long distance?
In your twenties, when both partners are surrounded pretty much 24/7 by people who share their deepest interests and are close in age? You are not married or at least engaged? There's no way it will work out.
2.5 years of my currently 5-year-old relationship were long-distance, but neither of us were as busy or poor as you and your partner are likely to be over the next few years – we had the time and money to see each other often and spend all vacations together. Still, I'd never do it again.
posted by halogen at 7:54 PM on February 27, 2011
What are the odds a relationship could survive 5 years long distance?
In your twenties, when both partners are surrounded pretty much 24/7 by people who share their deepest interests and are close in age? You are not married or at least engaged? There's no way it will work out.
2.5 years of my currently 5-year-old relationship were long-distance, but neither of us were as busy or poor as you and your partner are likely to be over the next few years – we had the time and money to see each other often and spend all vacations together. Still, I'd never do it again.
posted by halogen at 7:54 PM on February 27, 2011
Great supervisors are a gift.
posted by rumbles at 7:58 PM on February 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by rumbles at 7:58 PM on February 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hard to say. Which supervisor you end up with means *a lot.*
career in research (academia/industry) or science writing
Is sooo wide open, it sounds like you have no idea. Are you sure you want to go to grad school? Really sure?
You're anonymous but what kinds of skills do you have, will have with your PhD/MSc? There's a bunch of kids down the hall working at a worm lab graduating with MScs, but they've got *no* useful general skills. They're pretty screwed unless they do a PhD/post-doc outside of the worm field unless they stay in the c.elegans world. No. Fucking. General. Skills.
I know a lot of people with MScs who've found work. A few PhDs with no work, lots of PhDs with shitty paying work. Lots of people with MScs who make a *lot* more than post-docs.
Maybe (hopefully) this'll change when you're ready to graduate.
1) Which of these places have told you, in your face, how much support money they'll give you if you don't manage to get outside grants? How much money will they give you if you don't get a personal grant? For how long?
What citizenship do you hold; are you able to apply for external grants in the country that you choose to do you PhD?
2) Because of rotations and no-one's vouched to pay for you, is there a professor (PI) who you'd like to work with? Email/phone/talk to them. Go to the school that they're at.
3) Because of rotations... you aren't guaranteed anyone. It's a crapshoot - take Toronto for the sake of your heart.
4) Some PIs are generous; others will pay you the minimum that's allowed; others will ask you to TA so they don't have to pay anything. Others will pay you even if you get a TA position, and others yet will pay you a top-up if you pick up a grant.
From what you've written in the questions, really really question whether you really want to go to grad school or not.
posted by porpoise at 8:18 PM on February 27, 2011
career in research (academia/industry) or science writing
Is sooo wide open, it sounds like you have no idea. Are you sure you want to go to grad school? Really sure?
You're anonymous but what kinds of skills do you have, will have with your PhD/MSc? There's a bunch of kids down the hall working at a worm lab graduating with MScs, but they've got *no* useful general skills. They're pretty screwed unless they do a PhD/post-doc outside of the worm field unless they stay in the c.elegans world. No. Fucking. General. Skills.
I know a lot of people with MScs who've found work. A few PhDs with no work, lots of PhDs with shitty paying work. Lots of people with MScs who make a *lot* more than post-docs.
Maybe (hopefully) this'll change when you're ready to graduate.
1) Which of these places have told you, in your face, how much support money they'll give you if you don't manage to get outside grants? How much money will they give you if you don't get a personal grant? For how long?
What citizenship do you hold; are you able to apply for external grants in the country that you choose to do you PhD?
2) Because of rotations and no-one's vouched to pay for you, is there a professor (PI) who you'd like to work with? Email/phone/talk to them. Go to the school that they're at.
3) Because of rotations... you aren't guaranteed anyone. It's a crapshoot - take Toronto for the sake of your heart.
4) Some PIs are generous; others will pay you the minimum that's allowed; others will ask you to TA so they don't have to pay anything. Others will pay you even if you get a TA position, and others yet will pay you a top-up if you pick up a grant.
From what you've written in the questions, really really question whether you really want to go to grad school or not.
posted by porpoise at 8:18 PM on February 27, 2011
A good relationship can handle a year or two of long distance. Five is an awfully long time. If you start putting down roots in Chicago, what are the chances that she would be able to relocate when she's done with her program? Furthermore, what does she want? Would she be ok with five years long distance or is your taking an offer outside of Toronto a deal-breaker for her?
Other things to think about: Do you want to have children with this woman, ever? What is your timeline for this? Does she want kids? What's her timeline? The reason I bring this up is sure, you're in your twenties, you have time, but not an infinite amount of it. Five years apart puts you at a point where there would be a lot of pressure on your relationship if she (or you) wanted to start having kids after grad school. If you're ok with waiting a decade for kids, it could work, but not everyone wants to be starting a family when they're pushing 40.
Your career is not, and should not be, your entire life. Sure, people are dismissive of doing things "for love," but the fact is you are not throwing away a career for love. You are making adjustments and compromises, which all relationships require. Every relationship is going to ask you to give something up or compromise at some point. That's life. You have the opportunity to both have the career and your SO. Were I in your shoes, that's the path I would take.
If you prioritize your career now, that's sending a big message to your girlfriend that your career is more important to you than she is. Be careful with that. If that's actually true, you probably need to re-evaluate the relationship, and no, it probably won't weather five years of long distance.
Likewise, you shouldn't be betting your whole existence on your relationship. You need balance. The fact that you have an opportunity to study in Toronto and maintain both your career and your relationship isn't something you should take for granted. It's absolutely an opportunity. Sure, it may not be ideal, but so very few things in life ever are.
posted by sonika at 8:24 PM on February 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Other things to think about: Do you want to have children with this woman, ever? What is your timeline for this? Does she want kids? What's her timeline? The reason I bring this up is sure, you're in your twenties, you have time, but not an infinite amount of it. Five years apart puts you at a point where there would be a lot of pressure on your relationship if she (or you) wanted to start having kids after grad school. If you're ok with waiting a decade for kids, it could work, but not everyone wants to be starting a family when they're pushing 40.
Your career is not, and should not be, your entire life. Sure, people are dismissive of doing things "for love," but the fact is you are not throwing away a career for love. You are making adjustments and compromises, which all relationships require. Every relationship is going to ask you to give something up or compromise at some point. That's life. You have the opportunity to both have the career and your SO. Were I in your shoes, that's the path I would take.
If you prioritize your career now, that's sending a big message to your girlfriend that your career is more important to you than she is. Be careful with that. If that's actually true, you probably need to re-evaluate the relationship, and no, it probably won't weather five years of long distance.
Likewise, you shouldn't be betting your whole existence on your relationship. You need balance. The fact that you have an opportunity to study in Toronto and maintain both your career and your relationship isn't something you should take for granted. It's absolutely an opportunity. Sure, it may not be ideal, but so very few things in life ever are.
posted by sonika at 8:24 PM on February 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ok, OP here. Forget anonymity :)
First, thank you everyone for your thoughts. No one can figure this out for me, but I really really appreciate the thoughtful replies.
Funding is sufficiently similar everywhere, once you consider living expenses. $32000/year + tuition guaranteed until I graduate at NYU. $28000/year until I graduate at Chicago. $25000/year in Toronto, also until I graduate. None of this is affected by getting or not getting grants, amazingly (though it increases in TO if you get grants). I am not a US citizen, so am ineligible for US grants, but some from Canada can be used in the US. There is a particular professor in Chicago who has expressed interest in having me join the lab. We have discussed this at length, and providing there's a good fit once there, that could work out. There are no TA requirements in Toronto or Chicago (but it's an option).
Be brutally honest with yourself about how you would feel if you woke up tomorrow and five years had passed, you were in some non-research job in Toronto and were married to your partner - would you think "ok, good" or would you think "oof"?
I've tried to think about this, and will do so further. My instinct is I would like "ok good". I think depending on the job, it wouldn't matter. There are other things I could do, I think.
A good relationship can handle a year or two of long distance. Five is an awfully long time. If you start putting down roots in Chicago, what are the chances that she would be able to relocate when she's done with her program? Furthermore, what does she want? Would she be ok with five years long distance or is your taking an offer outside of Toronto a deal-breaker for her?
Two years we could do. Five, I don't know. But as for permanent relocation, that's another issue. She is willing to move to the US, but it would require writing US boards/getting hired. She wants me to stay, but is nervous that she wouldn't get residency-matched to Toronto, and that I would regret that decision if she had to move anyway. This is a fair concern. If I chose to stay in Toronto and she matched to somewhere else in Canada (this match happens spring 2012), I might regret not going elsewhere.
Do I want children ever? With her?. Yes. So does she. The timeline is somewhere between 'not-now' and 'not 40'.
My girlfriend is not more important than my career. If anything, I feel like I am trying to justify staying in Toronto academically. Toronto is a great school overall, and the city itself has a great research community in neuroscience. But the program isn't as good a fit as Chicago. But then maybe the supervisor is better. Hard to say.
I've realized I need some more conversations with my current contacts in Toronto about what doors would/would not be open. And ideally, with contacts who have no personal interest in which lab I choose.
Thank you all for giving me tough but important questions. More is always welcome
posted by asparagrass at 9:02 PM on February 27, 2011
First, thank you everyone for your thoughts. No one can figure this out for me, but I really really appreciate the thoughtful replies.
Funding is sufficiently similar everywhere, once you consider living expenses. $32000/year + tuition guaranteed until I graduate at NYU. $28000/year until I graduate at Chicago. $25000/year in Toronto, also until I graduate. None of this is affected by getting or not getting grants, amazingly (though it increases in TO if you get grants). I am not a US citizen, so am ineligible for US grants, but some from Canada can be used in the US. There is a particular professor in Chicago who has expressed interest in having me join the lab. We have discussed this at length, and providing there's a good fit once there, that could work out. There are no TA requirements in Toronto or Chicago (but it's an option).
Be brutally honest with yourself about how you would feel if you woke up tomorrow and five years had passed, you were in some non-research job in Toronto and were married to your partner - would you think "ok, good" or would you think "oof"?
I've tried to think about this, and will do so further. My instinct is I would like "ok good". I think depending on the job, it wouldn't matter. There are other things I could do, I think.
A good relationship can handle a year or two of long distance. Five is an awfully long time. If you start putting down roots in Chicago, what are the chances that she would be able to relocate when she's done with her program? Furthermore, what does she want? Would she be ok with five years long distance or is your taking an offer outside of Toronto a deal-breaker for her?
Two years we could do. Five, I don't know. But as for permanent relocation, that's another issue. She is willing to move to the US, but it would require writing US boards/getting hired. She wants me to stay, but is nervous that she wouldn't get residency-matched to Toronto, and that I would regret that decision if she had to move anyway. This is a fair concern. If I chose to stay in Toronto and she matched to somewhere else in Canada (this match happens spring 2012), I might regret not going elsewhere.
Do I want children ever? With her?. Yes. So does she. The timeline is somewhere between 'not-now' and 'not 40'.
My girlfriend is not more important than my career. If anything, I feel like I am trying to justify staying in Toronto academically. Toronto is a great school overall, and the city itself has a great research community in neuroscience. But the program isn't as good a fit as Chicago. But then maybe the supervisor is better. Hard to say.
I've realized I need some more conversations with my current contacts in Toronto about what doors would/would not be open. And ideally, with contacts who have no personal interest in which lab I choose.
Thank you all for giving me tough but important questions. More is always welcome
posted by asparagrass at 9:02 PM on February 27, 2011
An MSc is a very different animal from a PhD. I would really hesitate to say that it would give you the opportunity to have both "the career and your SO" -- an MSc is neither necessary nor sufficient for an academic career, and my understanding is that it only gives you a little edge in industry (not to mention that you will probably find it harder to advance without a PhD). Also, PhD programs are funded, something that is almost never true of MSc programs; the pay isn't great as a grad student, but there's still a big difference between going further in debt and getting paid anything at all.
The MSc won't hurt you either, I don't think, but it's a pretty temporary option and at best it means you would have to make this decision again in 1-2 years.
As far as career advice goes, I'd say that the pros and cons of NYU sound ideal for a postdoctoral position. Multiple faculty members you could see yourself working with suggests Chicago as a grad school would be a really good option.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:03 PM on February 27, 2011
The MSc won't hurt you either, I don't think, but it's a pretty temporary option and at best it means you would have to make this decision again in 1-2 years.
As far as career advice goes, I'd say that the pros and cons of NYU sound ideal for a postdoctoral position. Multiple faculty members you could see yourself working with suggests Chicago as a grad school would be a really good option.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:03 PM on February 27, 2011
Sorry, to clarify, in Canada you enter into an M.Sc. program, which you can finish without it seeming like a 'failed phd'. Most people reclassify directly into the PhD program, and the whole thing takes 5 years, like in the US. But you can also finish. Or you can switch schools for a PhD, but it does make for a longer road. And the M.Sc. program is fully funded, $25000/year, which increases to $28000 after you reclassify.
posted by asparagrass at 9:06 PM on February 27, 2011
posted by asparagrass at 9:06 PM on February 27, 2011
I just came back to the thread to clarify for the non-Canadians -- MSc's are usually a required part of the PhD track here - we have 1-2 year masters, then four year PhD instead of 5-6 year PhD. So being accepted to a MSc in Toronto is the same as being accepted to a PhD in the states.
About the long-distance thing -- I did this for grad school btw the US and the UK. Our relationship lasted, but we did only three years long distance at the same age, and we had summers together (my research coincided with his residence). We also had four years before going long-distance. But everyone is different, as is every relationship.
It does sound like the Chicago program is a bit better for you -- but (despite silly snobbishness agt their own degrees) Toronto is an excellent university. Chicago is close compared to many places, but just far enough to be awkward. I can see your dilemma.
Have you talked to your current mentors about this?
posted by jb at 9:17 PM on February 27, 2011
About the long-distance thing -- I did this for grad school btw the US and the UK. Our relationship lasted, but we did only three years long distance at the same age, and we had summers together (my research coincided with his residence). We also had four years before going long-distance. But everyone is different, as is every relationship.
It does sound like the Chicago program is a bit better for you -- but (despite silly snobbishness agt their own degrees) Toronto is an excellent university. Chicago is close compared to many places, but just far enough to be awkward. I can see your dilemma.
Have you talked to your current mentors about this?
posted by jb at 9:17 PM on February 27, 2011
I got a PhD in neuroscience. It's such a broad field and a very competitive one at that. I also interviewed at NYU back in the day and got a similar vibe to the one you describe. Ultimately academic success will come if you find what aspect of neuroscience really interests you and then find how to direct your research there. Only people that do something they're passionate about, get good publishable results, find their publishing/sub community niche and form connections stand a good chance at academia as a career goal. That said, your choice of PhD adviser is critical at facilitating all that. It doesn't sound like you really know what interests you yet, so I think an MSc that will allow you the time and experience to learn and try different things as you narrow down a general direction is a good idea. That will give you the time to figure out what research questions drive you or if that's really what you want to do longer term. At the same time you're allowing time for your relationship to keep growing.
posted by blueyellow at 9:17 PM on February 27, 2011
posted by blueyellow at 9:17 PM on February 27, 2011
Don't forget thought that your stipend in Canada is actually a lot less one you factor in tuition. $25000 - $7000 only leaves you with about $18,000. Granted that's not taxable, but still something to think about.
Having said that, if money is not a primary concern, why not stay in Toronto for the time being. You won't have to reclassify for 18 months, by which time you'll know if your SO is getting residency in Toronto. A MSc from Toronto will let you get into a lot of good PhD programs in the US, so if she doesn't match in TO and you want to move on, you can wrap up the MSc and go elsewhere--maybe even somewhere better than Chicago. In the grand scheme of things, 2 years is not a big deal, especially at this juncture in your life when you have so many unknowns.
posted by reformedjerk at 9:17 PM on February 27, 2011
Having said that, if money is not a primary concern, why not stay in Toronto for the time being. You won't have to reclassify for 18 months, by which time you'll know if your SO is getting residency in Toronto. A MSc from Toronto will let you get into a lot of good PhD programs in the US, so if she doesn't match in TO and you want to move on, you can wrap up the MSc and go elsewhere--maybe even somewhere better than Chicago. In the grand scheme of things, 2 years is not a big deal, especially at this juncture in your life when you have so many unknowns.
posted by reformedjerk at 9:17 PM on February 27, 2011
Supervisor choice is much, much more important that which institution you go to (within reason). A supervisor with a good reputation, an active group and lots of research partners and connections is what you want.
The MSc to PhD promotion system is a Canadian quirk to allow rapid intake into a doctoral program right out of the BSc. An MSc is done by choice or because of academic disqualification, ie, you fail your comprehensive and they only allow you to finish you Masters. If you pass your comps and do well in your coursework, this is a route to a four-year doctorate. I did it and it's had zero effect on my career compared to my peers with MScs, other than graduating one or two years earlier.
My main advice is to pick a supervisor first, someone both respected and with whom you can work, and a program second. Your best sources of advice are your current undergrad profs, publications in higher impact factor journals (don't go below 2), and conferences, in roughly that order of usefulness. I found my supervisor in Scientific American, back when SA still had science content.
The only caveat to that is to pick somewhere other than your undergraduate institution if at all possible. All your degrees from the same place looks weak on a resume.
posted by bonehead at 9:54 PM on February 27, 2011
The MSc to PhD promotion system is a Canadian quirk to allow rapid intake into a doctoral program right out of the BSc. An MSc is done by choice or because of academic disqualification, ie, you fail your comprehensive and they only allow you to finish you Masters. If you pass your comps and do well in your coursework, this is a route to a four-year doctorate. I did it and it's had zero effect on my career compared to my peers with MScs, other than graduating one or two years earlier.
My main advice is to pick a supervisor first, someone both respected and with whom you can work, and a program second. Your best sources of advice are your current undergrad profs, publications in higher impact factor journals (don't go below 2), and conferences, in roughly that order of usefulness. I found my supervisor in Scientific American, back when SA still had science content.
The only caveat to that is to pick somewhere other than your undergraduate institution if at all possible. All your degrees from the same place looks weak on a resume.
posted by bonehead at 9:54 PM on February 27, 2011
Chicago. Totally world class & known for serious education and research.
No contest.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:58 PM on February 27, 2011
No contest.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:58 PM on February 27, 2011
Funding is sufficiently similar everywhere, once you consider living expenses. $32000/year + tuition guaranteed until I graduate at NYU. $28000/year until I graduate at Chicago. $25000/year in Toronto, also until I graduate. None of this is affected by getting or not getting grants, amazingly (though it increases in TO if you get grants). I am not a US citizen, so am ineligible for US grants, but some from Canada can be used in the US. There is a particular professor in Chicago who has expressed interest in having me join the lab. We have discussed this at length, and providing there's a good fit once there, that could work out. There are no TA requirements in Toronto or Chicago (but it's an option).
Chicago, then. $28k in Chicago will let you live a lot better than $32k in New York, AND there's a prof who wants you there, and all of the other reasons above.
posted by The Michael The at 4:43 AM on February 28, 2011
Chicago, then. $28k in Chicago will let you live a lot better than $32k in New York, AND there's a prof who wants you there, and all of the other reasons above.
posted by The Michael The at 4:43 AM on February 28, 2011
Asparagrass: thanks for the clarification! That at least makes Toronto look comparable, although I think Chicago is still your best choice from a purely academic perspective. Remember, ideally you want multiple faculty members whose work you find interesting, because you need a committee as well as an advisor. This gives you more of a Plan B if it turns out after a year or so that Advisor A is actually psycho/absent/broke. Establishing relationships with non-advisor faculty through rotations can also be really helpful when it's time to look for a postdoc, which, let's be real, is something you get mostly through connections. (It also sounds like you're ultimately most excited about Chicago.)
As far as institutional reputation goes, I actually think U of T has a considerable international rep for biology, at least in the areas I know (though neuro is sort of a world apart, so I can't speak to that specifically), so I might downweight that as a criterion.
Finally, just to give you something else to think about, since neuro is sort of a scientific melting pot, you may also want to take into account the other departments at your prospective schools. For instance, if you're more into electrophysiology you may want a school with a good biophysics dept. in case you want to collaborate; likewise if you're more of a cell bio/molecular person you would probably want to know that there are world-class molecular biologists a building over or whatever.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:11 AM on February 28, 2011
As far as institutional reputation goes, I actually think U of T has a considerable international rep for biology, at least in the areas I know (though neuro is sort of a world apart, so I can't speak to that specifically), so I might downweight that as a criterion.
Finally, just to give you something else to think about, since neuro is sort of a scientific melting pot, you may also want to take into account the other departments at your prospective schools. For instance, if you're more into electrophysiology you may want a school with a good biophysics dept. in case you want to collaborate; likewise if you're more of a cell bio/molecular person you would probably want to know that there are world-class molecular biologists a building over or whatever.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:11 AM on February 28, 2011
Hi. I did a different degree at Chicago. Because of that, many unexpected doors have opened for me, in my own field and others and in the business world, just through that line on my CV. Also, if that's where you've got a supervisor interested in working with you - and, as you said above, willing to spend a chunk of time talking with you about the opportunities - that's golden.
posted by catlet at 8:53 AM on February 28, 2011
posted by catlet at 8:53 AM on February 28, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by juliapangolin at 5:57 PM on February 27, 2011