How can I overcome my undergrad academic record and get into grad school?

February 17, 2011 10:25 AM

I'm looking to go to grad school after undergrad studies in a field I wasn't interested in. Unfortunately due to said lack of interest my GPA isn't stellar, I have no research experience or internships, and I'm unlikely to get amazing letters of recommendation. What's the best way to do this?

----- Beginning of background info -----

Straight out of HS I enrolled in an okay college (~#75 in the US for engineering) as an undecided engineering student. I had good grades and SAT scores but didn't go to a better engineering school because I was more undecided than most and wasn't sure that I wanted to stick with engineering, and this school offered better non-engineering programs than better engineering schools I had looked at.

This school shuffled most of the undecided students into the aerospace engineering department and, while it was something I found interesting going into the program, it lost my interest some time during my 3rd year, about when we actually got into the aerospace-specific content. Unfortunately I didn't know what I wanted to do and rather than switching majors haphazardly I was advised to stay the course unless I had some clear ideas about what specific major I wanted to switch to because I'd be amassing make-up coursework at such a late stage, especially if I switched more than once. I'm starting to think now that I'd have been better off dropping out at this point and really figuring out what I wanted to do with my life to avoid the (then unforeseen) damage that would occur to my academic record, but I made the mistake of trusting the advisors at this school and didn't see dropping out as an option.

I did well in the coursework that I was interested in (I was the top of my class in compressible flow and impressed the professor by getting 100s on every exam, and some other classes like heat & mass transfer, which seemingly all of my classmates hated but I was interested in, went similarly), but did not do the homework in classes that did not interest me because it was exhausting and burned me out. I also didn't quite fit in socially with most of the people at this school (though I had never had these types of problems in high school, or with friends of friends at other schools) and became somewhat withdrawn and didn't enjoy my time there, and I spent a lot of time researching other schools and thinking about transferring, but again, without any concrete ideas about what I wanted to major in, didn't. This combination of things resulted in a number of Cs on my record, with a handful of As and a some Bs.

I received an F in one course with an excuse I can't explain away without people thinking that I was the problem (as always when you blame the professor): A newly-hired professor explained most of the course material incorrectly and gave extremely difficult homework and exams on topics he didn't tell us that were going to be covered. He failed something like over 80% of the class, even though when meeting with him he told most of us we were in good standing. There was some kind of investigation done by the administration and this professor was transferred to another department, but they refused to correct our grades and said that re-taking the course would erase the F from our records. I re-took the course and got a B-, but they refused to take the F off my record. This professor did the same thing to another class the next semester and was eventually fired. The administration still wouldn't erase the F, though a number of athletes did manage to have theirs erased the first time around (presumably to allow them to stay in their athletic programs).

During my final year I attended a number of career fairs and similar events and had a very difficult time becoming involved in anything aerospace-related. It's hard to feign interest in a field that genuinely does not interest you, but I had no issues with other fields. It occurred to me then that aerospace is really not something I'd like to do for a living, but at the behest of school advisors and my parents I eventually completed my degree, though not without significant attrition to my academic record.

----- End of background info -----


I graduated last year with a BS in aerospace engineering and a GPA of 3.0 (actually a 2.95--I'm finding this is an enormous difference to some people).

I've spent a lot of time searching for mechanical engineering or otherwise non-aerospace jobs over the past months without any luck. I have no research experience (which I have no excuse for other than not being interested in the field) and have no desire to work for the only people hiring aerospace engineers in my area, defense contractors, though I have applied to a few just to get interview experience.

In between searching for jobs I've come to realize that my primary interest is in physical science, specifically materials science and nanotechnology, and specifically with regards to semiconductor research and (chip) manufacturing. As fate would have it one of the schools I passed up for undergrad has an exceptional department in this area.

To try and correct my course I've started looking at graduate school and pursuing a MS, because I am fairly certain PhD programs are out of my reach for now. (To dissuade ideas that I'm trying to go to grad school to fix my major--I am not. The level of research I'd like to do in this area requires grad school.) I've spoken to a handful of graduate admissions departments about attending their programs, but they all take issue with my GPA in the last two years of undergrad and suggest that I'll have a very difficult time getting in. Some of them have been completely puzzled by the fluctuation in my grades, especially where I've received Cs in courses that are prerequisites for significantly heavier courses where I've received As. The single F doesn't look good either, even though I got a B- on the re-take. Surprisingly some schools suggested that taking post-bac courses during the lengthy period between now and applications for next fall to get my GPA up would not help my case much, if at all. While I'm appreciative of their honesty, they haven't been much help in suggesting ways to resolve my situation. Most suggest going to less selective schools, but schools I can afford to go to (I won't get financial aid with my grades and most schools I can't commute to from home are out of the question because of the cost) do not have programs that focus specifically on my areas of interest. There's also the issue that I'm unlikely to get stellar recommendations from past professors because I wasn't very involved and didn't do great in many courses. Even the professor who was impressed with my scores in one class was disappointed with the two Cs I received in a his subsequent classes.

So what are my options? I don't want to skimp on grad school by going to a less selective institution because their programs could ultimately hinder my career prospects since they’re not concentrated on what I want to do. I have considered the much-contraindicated option of pursuing a second BS and proving my skills with a 4.0 and loads of undergrad research (and shooting for financial aid when I apply for grad school) but I'm skeptical of that mainly because so many people seem to think second bachelor's degrees are a bad idea in general for unclear reasons, even though it does seem like the most clear-cut and prudent option to me. Another option is to try and find a job in a somewhat-related field to gain relevant experience and then apply to grad school in a couple years, but that seems extremely unlikely given my success in the job market to date and the number of opportunities in the area. My third option is to take the GRE and some kind of unrelated job over the summer and apply and hope to get into grad school with what I have now, but that seems even less likely and maybe even naively optimistic. A fourth option is to try and get on as a research assistant somewhere, but I don't have any idea how to do that and have had not been able to find much info online.

Sorry for the long post. I'm trying to include as much relevant information as possible to avoid follow-ups. If you have any questions or would like to discuss something in private feel free to contact me at [e-mail]

posted by anonymous to Education (15 answers total)

Go get a few years of experience in industry. Do good work for a couple of years and concerns about your undergraduate performance will be alleviated to a certain extent, especially if you can get an employer to pay for it.

That may mean working for said defense contractors, as such companies actually represent a significant portion of the engineering jobs in the country.

But let's be honest here: how did you find yourself suddenly interested in what is a reasonably arcane discipline when you have no real experience with it? How long has this been of interest to you? One of the reasons undergraduate performance is important in grad school applications is because it can serve to establish your dedication to the project in question, because grad school requires dedication. It involves two to seven years of focus significantly not just on one subject but on one particular facet of that subject. You got an aerospace engineering bachelors. Great. An MS in that field could be more like airfoil design in supersonic craft using one particular kind of material. Way more focused. If this is something you've "realized" in the past few weeks while job searching, convincing an admissions officer that you've got a fire in your gut about this stuff is going to be a really hard sell. And for good reason: not having spent any real time with the subject--or even doing research, period--you can't have any kind of realistic understanding of what doing years of semiconductor research is like.

So I say again: go get a job. Hold your nose and get one with the people who are hiring. Demonstrate competency in your field and get some project management experience. Then get your employer to pay for a graduate degree closer to what you're interested in.
posted by valkyryn at 10:43 AM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]

Think of admissions departments as like HR at a company. They see a ton of applications and they set simple filters like GPA >= 3 so that their work is manageable.

If you don't meet the usual filter criteria but you're really interested, I think that picking the professors that you would like to work with and approaching them directly would be the lowest risk / highest payoff approach, followed by entering a Masters program at a school you want to do a PhD in, without a scholarship, as a kind of PhD internship.
posted by zippy at 10:46 AM on February 17, 2011

Seconding valkyryn's approach. I'd put 'take a job in the field' as #2 on my list, before the Masters route, because you can establish competency without going into debt.
posted by zippy at 10:49 AM on February 17, 2011

There was some kind of investigation done by the administration and this professor was transferred to another department, but they refused to correct our grades and said that re-taking the course would erase the F from our records. I re-took the course and got a B-, but they refused to take the F off my record.

I'm not usually in favor of grade-grubbing, but it looks like there's very good cause here for you to strongly insist the college take that F off of your transcript. What was their reason for not doing so?
posted by yarly at 10:51 AM on February 17, 2011

Tldr all of it.
Instead of bean plating the situation and excusing what happened as far as gpa is concerned, talk to an advisor. By expressing interests and talking about the program you may be able to circumvent gpa requirements or take a couple of classes that would permit you entrance into your desired program.
worse case scenerio they tell you nothing can be done, but I highly doubt that to be the case considering some people get into grad school with less than stellar marks in a class or two (including myself)
posted by handbanana at 10:53 AM on February 17, 2011

Take the GRE--including the GRE subject exam in relevant areas, probably mathematics? If you seriously ace it and are willing to start a graduate program unfunded, you may have a shot at a program that takes the GRE very seriously. Otherwise, I third valkyryn's approach.
posted by Kalatraz at 10:55 AM on February 17, 2011

One problem prospective employers might have with your GPA is that, from an employer's point of view, they can't rely on your performance on assignments that don't interest you. That is a huge problem, and probably a discussion you want to avoid.

Having real world experience will mitigate this problem with a sufficiently stellar track record and letters of reference from employers who are familiar with your background.

I'm not sure what others in your field might say, but you might talk to the one professor and explain your situation. Then ask for a letter recommending you for employment in a position that is more narrowly related to things that you find interesting enough to excel in. Even that may be tough to sell, since it's the professor's reputation on the line.

Last, I'd strongly dispute that F with the school--it sounds like they've done everything but acknowledge that the professor was the issue. If it were me, I would demand a tuition refund for those credits, then be willing to settle with removing the F from your grades. If the money is significant, you have better leverage.
posted by Hylas at 11:05 AM on February 17, 2011

Surprisingly some schools suggested that taking post-bac courses during the lengthy period between now and applications for next fall

I'm confused. Most graduate deadlines for next fall have either already happened, or will likely close by March 15th. What lengthy period are you talking about?

I'm going to be frank: despite not being in your field, your quality of academic history here does not indicate that you're cut out for a "selective" program. I mean, I get, in some ways, the whole "I do better in classes I'm interested in," but for most talented, driven, dedicated undergraduates, that's the difference between a B and an A--not a C and an A. And all the stuff about how you couldn't transfer . . . you were a grown up! You were in control of all of this! Why didn't you drop the class with the crazycakes professor? Why didn't you take some ownership over your scholarship?

Have you considered getting a second bachelor's in the field you're interested in? Keep in mind that this is only a useful game plan if you work damned hard and earn something close to a 4.0. But it might be an option.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:28 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]

Taking graduate-level classes as an unmatriculated student and doing well in them can be a way to mitigate a low undergrad GPA. It's certainly a significant investment of time and money, but it's also a good way to test the waters to see if you're really interested.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:32 PM on February 17, 2011

I don't know what the odds are of being able to do this in your field, but one thing you could try is to find a professor who does what you are interested in who would be willing to take you as an unpaid volunteer (part-time if you need to have a second job to put food on the table) for a while. This would at least get you a reference and some experience, and if you match well with the group it's quite possible the professor could pull strings to get you into the school. Naturally, you should take the job very seriously and be as diligent and helpful as possible. I've personally seen this work in our (biology) lab.
posted by LadyOscar at 4:18 PM on February 17, 2011

Response by poster: I recently went through a similar issue, though on an undergrad level instead of grad school. My first attempt at undergrad was atrocious. When I decided to apply to other colleges to finish my degree, I was told outright by the more selective ones that no amount of classes could really save my transcript, and the less-selective ones stated I need at least a full semester's worth of courses (15 credits) to be considered for the bare minimum. I ended up completing 27 at a community college over the summer and fall and that was sufficient--but I still didn't receive my official acceptance until all of the grades from my community college were in after the holidays.

Grad school is much more selective than undergrad. You may find trouble applying at even less-selective schools. And the period between now and next fall is not all that lengthy--classes for the spring semester have already started, so at most, if you did nothing but schoolwork, you could fit in some things over the summer. That's not a lot.

I think in your case the "Get a job and prove yourself" route is probably the best.
posted by Anonymous at 5:40 PM on February 17, 2011

Lay off the school idea for a while. Go work, travel, do crazy things - get some life experience. You may change your mind. I had a crappy undergrad gpa, and got rejected from grad school when I applied fresh out of undergrad.

I ended up working or interning in four different fields, and accidentally found a whole new subject to be thrilled about. I took community college classes, and used old supervisors for letters of rec. I'm in my grad program of choice. I think my varied post-college experiences more than made up for my undergrad gpa (mine was worse than yours...). A decent GRE score doesn't hurt either.
posted by shinyshiny at 6:57 PM on February 17, 2011

You should try to get practical work experience, although you could always go for another Bachelor's degree specializing in the area you are now interested in.

Grades coming out of undergrad aren't going to make or break things.. though you may have to do some shuffling around, job-wise, to maneuver into what you really want to do.
posted by rich at 6:02 AM on February 18, 2011

Mod note: From the OP:

Thanks for the responses. Unless I get a job offer I can leverage into grad school within the next month or so I'm going to take the GRE and I'll have to figure out what specifically I need to do next.

Some follow-ups to your questions:

I'm not usually in favor of grade-grubbing, but it looks like there's very good cause here for you to strongly insist the college take that F off of your transcript. What was their reason for not doing so?

They claim they found no fault with the professor's teaching or grading policies for that class. To my knowledge they dropped the failing grades from the second class he failed (the one which resulted in him being let go), but they maintain that he did nothing wrong with the class I took. I've brought this up with them a few times now and I'm not confident that anything is going to be done short of taking legal action, and I don't see any way that can end well.

Instead of bean plating the situation and excusing what happened as far as gpa is concerned, talk to an advisor. By expressing interests and talking about the program you may be able to circumvent gpa requirements or take a couple of classes that would permit you entrance into your desired program.

I have talked to advisors at various grad schools and they've told me the best thing I can do is score high on my GREs and hope to get in with what I have. I did talk to some people in the departments I'm looking at and they said there wasn't a hard cutoff with the GPA, but did suggest that the rest of my application would have to be stellar and even then I'd be extremely lucky to get selected over other applicants.

I'm confused. Most graduate deadlines for next fall have either already happened, or will likely close by March 15th. What lengthy period are you talking about?

The deadlines (in January) have passed for all of the programs I'm interested in. I'm talking about the period between now and Fall 2012. None of them do spring admissions.

I'm going to be frank: despite not being in your field, your quality of academic history here does not indicate that you're cut out for a "selective" program. I mean, I get, in some ways, the whole "I do better in classes I'm interested in," but for most talented, driven, dedicated undergraduates, that's the difference between a B and an A--not a C and an A. And all the stuff about how you couldn't transfer . . . you were a grown up! You were in control of all of this! Why didn't you drop the class with the crazycakes professor? Why didn't you take some ownership over your scholarship?

That's what people in admissions have said, and I guess it just needs to be taken on faith that it is something I am capable of, I just did not put in any effort with a lot of my undergrad courses. For many classes the difference between a C and an A was just the homework. Most of the classes I attended had excessive amounts of homework (some of it weighted as much as 50% of the grade) because so many students demanded it, probably because it's easier to pass like that when you don't know the material. I did actually learn the material and a lot of people used to come to me for help, but I just couldn't bring myself to do the enormous problem sets for those classes when I could be doing the enormous problem sets for the classes I liked. Other people finished them by doing part of the assignment and copying off each other, and that's not something I did. Grades weren't really something I paid any attention to with those classes because passing, to me at the time, was good enough. That was pretty stupid, and I didn't have the foresight to think that it might be a problem down the road.

I did talk to my advisor and some other people about transferring but as I mentioned in my original post they didn't recommend it unless I had a clear idea of what I wanted to switch to. My school didn't have a materials science department, so a lot of the people I talked to suggested that it wasn't something I could do as an undergrad and that I'd have to major in electrical engineering or physics or chemistry and I got answers diverging in every direction, and that combined with uncertainty about what I really wanted to do was enough to keep me from switching. In retrospect it was probably a bad idea to trust them and not get advice from outside the school and not do lots of research on my own, but it just didn't happen. I should have done better, but 18-21 year-olds aren't always the best at making adult decisions.

As for not dropping the class I failed, I actually talked to the professor about my low test scores because it looked to me like I was in danger of failing and he told me that I was in good standing and the tests were intentionally made very difficult and would be curved at the end of the semester. I'm not a fan of those kinds of grading policies, but if I dropped classes because I didn't like how they were graded I'd never have finished undergrad to begin with. Almost everyone who failed was blindsided by it.

Have you considered getting a second bachelor's in the field you're interested in? Keep in mind that this is only a useful game plan if you work damned hard and earn something close to a 4.0. But it might be an option.

Yes, that was actually one of the options at the end of my post. I have no doubt that I could do it, but I don't know whether it's a good idea or not. Many people say second bachelor's degrees are always a waste of time/money/effort, including here on AskMeFi.

Taking graduate-level classes as an unmatriculated student and doing well in them can be a way to mitigate a low undergrad GPA. It's certainly a significant investment of time and money, but it's also a good way to test the waters to see if you're really interested.

This sounds like a good idea. The admissions people I've talked to told me that post-bac courses wouldn't help from a grading perspective, but I suppose if anything it's a good way to get involved and potentially get recommendations from professors relevant to the field, and as a way to show that I'm capable of graduate-level studies.

With regards to employment I am still applying for jobs. There just aren't many opportunities around here and the ones that are available are extremely competitive. It seems extremely unlikely that I'm going to be able to get a job relevant to the field, much less a job at all. Target isn't even hiring!

posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:40 AM on February 18, 2011

Yes, that was actually one of the options at the end of my post. I have no doubt that I could do it, but I don't know whether it's a good idea or not. Many people say second bachelor's degrees are always a waste of time/money/effort, including here on AskMeFi.

Sorry, I caught the bit about considering a second bachelor's in your wall of text after I posted. For what it's worth, I don't think they're a waste of time, money, or effort if you're changing fields and you go to an affordable program. I know several people who have gone this route--one who had a communications degree and decided, at 26, that he wanted to teach high school in the sciences, and one who had an anthropology degree and decided he wanted to go into engineering.

That's what people in admissions have said, and I guess it just needs to be taken on faith that it is something I am capable of, I just did not put in any effort with a lot of my undergrad courses.

Whether or not we take your ability on faith, graduate admissions committees are highly unlikely to do so. And why should they? They're going to have plenty of applicants who are not only capable of having a high GPA, but actually proved this capability by earning one.

Usually I recommend that applicants stay away from these sites, but I recommend that you take a look at the grad cafe forums to see the kind of applicant profiles you're competing against. While I understand why it's appealing (and perhaps mentally healthy) to externalize your school record and give us excuses for your difficulties, I suspect you're just not being realistic about your prospects and the type of programs you should be aiming for.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:09 AM on February 18, 2011