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February 12, 2011 3:55 AM Subscribe
In the United States, is a strong regional accent a class marker?
For instance, a strong New York/New Jersey, Boston, Southern, Minnesota/Wisconsin, or Alaskan accent, compared to the standard flat mid-Western style "television" accent.
If so, which ones might mark you more "lower" class, and which might mark you more "upper" class?
For instance, a strong New York/New Jersey, Boston, Southern, Minnesota/Wisconsin, or Alaskan accent, compared to the standard flat mid-Western style "television" accent.
If so, which ones might mark you more "lower" class, and which might mark you more "upper" class?
I grew up in Cincinnati, just across the river from Kentucky. To have a stronger Kentucky twang was definitely seen as being lower-class, and the more neutral midwestern accent was privileged.
posted by Gordafarin at 4:19 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Gordafarin at 4:19 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
A good rule of thumb is the more plausible it would be for the voice to belong to the host of a national NPR news show, the higher class the accent.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:47 AM on February 12, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 4:47 AM on February 12, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also, I would argue that the TV accent is more California/West Coast than mid-Western.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:49 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by Jacqueline at 4:49 AM on February 12, 2011
Most of the stereotypical "regional" accents are generally considered to be lower class, but many of them have "flavors," if you will, which are distinctly upper class. Contrast Ben Affleck's accent in Good Will Hunting with, say, John Kerry or JFK's accent. The latter are instantly recognizable as New England bluebloods.
There's also an upper class Southern accent too. It isn't your redneck drawl, but it's definitely identifiable as 1) Southern, and 2) rich. Think Shelby Foote.
posted by valkyryn at 5:01 AM on February 12, 2011 [19 favorites]
There's also an upper class Southern accent too. It isn't your redneck drawl, but it's definitely identifiable as 1) Southern, and 2) rich. Think Shelby Foote.
posted by valkyryn at 5:01 AM on February 12, 2011 [19 favorites]
It definitely is in Western PA. Start dropping infinitives, using "yinz" unironically and pronounce "wash" as "worsh" and you're immediately tagged as working class. You can even take classes to learn to lose the accent.
posted by octothorpe at 5:02 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 5:02 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
As with everything, it depends on context. Some strong Southern accents are considered moneyed and upper class, for example. Similarly, there is a Boston Southie accent and a Boston Brahmin accent that infer different things, but an outsider might not be able to discern the two. Kind of like how an American thinks all British accents sound a bit upper-class.
Also, in the U.S., accents tend to infer intelligence, not class, per se. There would be a cognitive dissonance if someone were to try to explain physics with a thick Southern drawl, for example, even if the speaker were to be 100 percent technically correct.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:05 AM on February 12, 2011 [14 favorites]
Also, in the U.S., accents tend to infer intelligence, not class, per se. There would be a cognitive dissonance if someone were to try to explain physics with a thick Southern drawl, for example, even if the speaker were to be 100 percent technically correct.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:05 AM on February 12, 2011 [14 favorites]
I can think of a two that imply a moneyed background: the Boston Brahmin (think JFK) and the lockjaw (Robert F Buckley Jr, Thurston Howell III). Both are falling out of use, though, and definitely suggest that while the speaker might have money, they have also lived a narrow and insular existence.
There are also southern accents that suggest money and a privileged upbringing -- Senator Fred Thompson has one, and so did Julia Sugarbaker in Designing Women. Again, they carry baggage about what the speaker's experience and politics might be, but though strongly southern they do not say "low class".
posted by apparently at 5:15 AM on February 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
There are also southern accents that suggest money and a privileged upbringing -- Senator Fred Thompson has one, and so did Julia Sugarbaker in Designing Women. Again, they carry baggage about what the speaker's experience and politics might be, but though strongly southern they do not say "low class".
posted by apparently at 5:15 AM on February 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yikes, the answers here are all over the place! I suspect that this is partly because your question is a bit ambiguous and tough to answer as worded (I'm not trying to pick on you). The key to giving you an accurate response lies in locating the boundaries of the bits of your question...in other words, answering "as compared to what?"
In some regions compared to other regions, there will be a class difference that is tied to speech varieties. Objectively (as a whole), no, a strong regional accent will not always be tied to class in an overt, marked way in the US. Also, the notion of "class" operates very differently in the US as it does, say, in the UK. It's really hard to pin down what you mean without knowing which socio-ideological frame you're starting from (as a US-outsider, wondering if class marker refers to the term as you know it, or as a US-insider, with its local-specific construct of class).
"If so, which ones might mark you more "lower" class, and which might mark you more "upper" class?"
These are societal ascriptions and not homogenous or objective truths...they completely vary in the US, depending on your starting point (and a US-based notion of "class"). Also, they're ever changing.
Sorry for the non-answer all-around, but it's hard to know what you're asking, because the situation is super complex and variable.
An absolutely fantastic piece that really gets into the complexity of this in a groundbreaking way is William Labov's "The Social Stratification of English in New York City" (1966). It gets at the heart of the class/speech issue in the US and is a good entry point into sociolinguistics, which deals with these topics directly.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:38 AM on February 12, 2011 [9 favorites]
In some regions compared to other regions, there will be a class difference that is tied to speech varieties. Objectively (as a whole), no, a strong regional accent will not always be tied to class in an overt, marked way in the US. Also, the notion of "class" operates very differently in the US as it does, say, in the UK. It's really hard to pin down what you mean without knowing which socio-ideological frame you're starting from (as a US-outsider, wondering if class marker refers to the term as you know it, or as a US-insider, with its local-specific construct of class).
"If so, which ones might mark you more "lower" class, and which might mark you more "upper" class?"
These are societal ascriptions and not homogenous or objective truths...they completely vary in the US, depending on your starting point (and a US-based notion of "class"). Also, they're ever changing.
Sorry for the non-answer all-around, but it's hard to know what you're asking, because the situation is super complex and variable.
An absolutely fantastic piece that really gets into the complexity of this in a groundbreaking way is William Labov's "The Social Stratification of English in New York City" (1966). It gets at the heart of the class/speech issue in the US and is a good entry point into sociolinguistics, which deals with these topics directly.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:38 AM on February 12, 2011 [9 favorites]
Just an anecdote:
I'm Californian. I went to a well-regarded liberal arts college in the South. The vast majority of students and professors there sounded almost exactly like me. A few of the older, male professors had that well-regarded, subtle Southern drawl. There were one or two students who had similar drawls, but they were very rare.
However, of the janitorial staff, cafeteria staff, bus drivers, and other low-paid workers, there were two pretty common accents: Spanish (more accurately, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and others from Spanish-speaking countries in N and S America) and deep, deep Southern drawl. Out of my four years there, I never once got to a point where I could understand anything said in that deep Southern drawl. (I spent a lot of time just smiling and nodding.)
Honestly, that sharp and marked difference in accents taught me so much more about class, racism, and the social aspects to economics than anything else.
posted by meese at 5:51 AM on February 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm Californian. I went to a well-regarded liberal arts college in the South. The vast majority of students and professors there sounded almost exactly like me. A few of the older, male professors had that well-regarded, subtle Southern drawl. There were one or two students who had similar drawls, but they were very rare.
However, of the janitorial staff, cafeteria staff, bus drivers, and other low-paid workers, there were two pretty common accents: Spanish (more accurately, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and others from Spanish-speaking countries in N and S America) and deep, deep Southern drawl. Out of my four years there, I never once got to a point where I could understand anything said in that deep Southern drawl. (I spent a lot of time just smiling and nodding.)
Honestly, that sharp and marked difference in accents taught me so much more about class, racism, and the social aspects to economics than anything else.
posted by meese at 5:51 AM on February 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Iamkimiam makes a very good point. There is a PERCEPTION of accents as class markers; they are not themselves class markers, actually, except in some cases.
And the perception of those accents can operate in opposite manners locally and nationally. (For instance, many people in the north wouldn't recognize the local iterations of a "high-class" southern or western accent, and would "hear" it as poor--much the way that Americans might hear a Manchester accent as "posh," whereas in London everyone would look down their nose at it.)
There are a number of very "high-class" regional accents that are dying. For an example of one, look for video of Nan Talese speaking. (Ah: here.) The last of the Mid-Atlantic English speakers!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned above is African American Vernacular English, which is probably the closest "agreed-upon" (by which I mean, by whites!) both perceived and actual class marker. (Actually it's true that in black communities, there is dissent about how one speaks, and the meaning of such, and also some major class bias and friction, etc.) But AAVE, interestingly, is largely unmarked by regionalism, though it may associate and interact with regional accents.
As a consequence of the vast racism in America, it is actually totally assumed that AAVE is a product of lack of education and being working class or poor. It is literally thought of as "people not knowing how to talk," instead of being a way that some people (including many whites, by the way) just do talk! So I would propose that it is America's ultimate speech class marker--even when it is not an indicator of one's actual class.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 5:55 AM on February 12, 2011 [8 favorites]
And the perception of those accents can operate in opposite manners locally and nationally. (For instance, many people in the north wouldn't recognize the local iterations of a "high-class" southern or western accent, and would "hear" it as poor--much the way that Americans might hear a Manchester accent as "posh," whereas in London everyone would look down their nose at it.)
There are a number of very "high-class" regional accents that are dying. For an example of one, look for video of Nan Talese speaking. (Ah: here.) The last of the Mid-Atlantic English speakers!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned above is African American Vernacular English, which is probably the closest "agreed-upon" (by which I mean, by whites!) both perceived and actual class marker. (Actually it's true that in black communities, there is dissent about how one speaks, and the meaning of such, and also some major class bias and friction, etc.) But AAVE, interestingly, is largely unmarked by regionalism, though it may associate and interact with regional accents.
As a consequence of the vast racism in America, it is actually totally assumed that AAVE is a product of lack of education and being working class or poor. It is literally thought of as "people not knowing how to talk," instead of being a way that some people (including many whites, by the way) just do talk! So I would propose that it is America's ultimate speech class marker--even when it is not an indicator of one's actual class.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 5:55 AM on February 12, 2011 [8 favorites]
A caveat, imho, is if you sport a traditional country twang, yet command proper sentence structure and grammar in your speech, your accent will be thought of as "colorful" rather than low-class.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:00 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:00 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Some strong Southern accents are considered moneyed and upper class, for example.
Indeed. My wife and I jokingly call it the mint julep accent. Although I wouldn't necessarily say it's contextually a strong southern accent, it is regionally particular and somewhat pervasive among the social groups consisting of old, wealthy southern families and their social groups.
posted by empyrean at 6:09 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Indeed. My wife and I jokingly call it the mint julep accent. Although I wouldn't necessarily say it's contextually a strong southern accent, it is regionally particular and somewhat pervasive among the social groups consisting of old, wealthy southern families and their social groups.
posted by empyrean at 6:09 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would say, as a blanket statement, no. I just spent the past month traveling around the country on interviews, and in Boston, very educated people in charge of their departments in large universities and hospitals had extremely characteristic accents of the region. They sounded as distinguished as their credentials would indicate. I think vocabulary choice matters much more than inflection. Also, I'm from the Detroit area and I have no idea what saucysalt is referring to regarding a middle class accent.
posted by alygator at 6:23 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by alygator at 6:23 AM on February 12, 2011
"the TV accent is more California/West Coast than mid-Western."
It's traditionally actually called "Ohio Standard," though that's an entertainment term (from decades ago, really) and not a linguistic one. Wikipedia says "General American," the accent of mainstream entertainment programming, is basically the Omaha/Des Moines/Peoria accent.
I read an academic paper lo these ten years ago, so I have no recollection of where or by whom, talking about how college students nationwide at selective colleges all have a "sitcom" accent ... that is, they had all grown up watching "Friends" and "Seinfeld" and whatnot and their speech was heavily informed by the homogeneity of televised speech on those types of sitcoms, and their local/regional accents were dramatically less than even their parents, who had more diverse speech models. And that because it's spoken by upper middle class college students nationwide, the ability to speak "General American" or something next door to it is something of a class marker these days, at least insofar as class = education.
Anecdata: I'm from Chicago. (My accent isn't terribly heavy but I can only pronounce the letter A in one fashion, as per the word "Chicaaaaago" pronounced by a native.) I do, however, have several midwestern grammatical tics in my speech, such as ending sentences with prepositions ("If you go to the mall, can I go with?") in some situations. This is so correct in Midwestern language that I can't even recall being corrected for it by grammar-stickler teachers in high school. When I moved South for law school, this absolutely CRACKED UP my Southern friends who said it made me sound uneducated and backwoods when I ended sentences with prepositions and they'd tease me, "Didn't your mother ever teach you not to end sentences with propositions???" Meanwhile, they used "reckon" as a real word, which sounded painfully uneducated and backwoods to me! So there are certainly regional variations of class perception, though it may be related more to grammar and word choice than accent.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:39 AM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's traditionally actually called "Ohio Standard," though that's an entertainment term (from decades ago, really) and not a linguistic one. Wikipedia says "General American," the accent of mainstream entertainment programming, is basically the Omaha/Des Moines/Peoria accent.
I read an academic paper lo these ten years ago, so I have no recollection of where or by whom, talking about how college students nationwide at selective colleges all have a "sitcom" accent ... that is, they had all grown up watching "Friends" and "Seinfeld" and whatnot and their speech was heavily informed by the homogeneity of televised speech on those types of sitcoms, and their local/regional accents were dramatically less than even their parents, who had more diverse speech models. And that because it's spoken by upper middle class college students nationwide, the ability to speak "General American" or something next door to it is something of a class marker these days, at least insofar as class = education.
Anecdata: I'm from Chicago. (My accent isn't terribly heavy but I can only pronounce the letter A in one fashion, as per the word "Chicaaaaago" pronounced by a native.) I do, however, have several midwestern grammatical tics in my speech, such as ending sentences with prepositions ("If you go to the mall, can I go with?") in some situations. This is so correct in Midwestern language that I can't even recall being corrected for it by grammar-stickler teachers in high school. When I moved South for law school, this absolutely CRACKED UP my Southern friends who said it made me sound uneducated and backwoods when I ended sentences with prepositions and they'd tease me, "Didn't your mother ever teach you not to end sentences with propositions???" Meanwhile, they used "reckon" as a real word, which sounded painfully uneducated and backwoods to me! So there are certainly regional variations of class perception, though it may be related more to grammar and word choice than accent.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:39 AM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think the New England accent is less strongly indicative of a lower social class (agree with alygator) than some others might be, although a thick Boston accent is probably more common among blue-collar workers.
posted by theredpen at 6:45 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by theredpen at 6:45 AM on February 12, 2011
iamkimiam nailed this, but I wanted to echo that each region has its own variety of accents, and within that variety you're likely to find one or more examples of accents associated with wealth and education, and accents associated with poverty, ignorance, isolation, traditionalism, etc. There's not one "New England accent," for instance, there are many, and which one you speak depends upon not just region but locality, community history, family history, ethnicity, and privilege.
There are also different kinds of privilege that can be signaled by accent, and not all of them have to do with social class or material wealth. When I lived in Maine and would come across a real old-time Maine accent, it was easy to pick up the clear message "My family has been here a long, long time - much longer than you have - and so we have a legitimacy and power locally that you will never be accorded." But there are other Maine accents that are not so heavily laden with social import, and even though the people with those other accents might have more money and education, they aren't necessarily considered higher on the local totem pole.
posted by Miko at 6:58 AM on February 12, 2011
There are also different kinds of privilege that can be signaled by accent, and not all of them have to do with social class or material wealth. When I lived in Maine and would come across a real old-time Maine accent, it was easy to pick up the clear message "My family has been here a long, long time - much longer than you have - and so we have a legitimacy and power locally that you will never be accorded." But there are other Maine accents that are not so heavily laden with social import, and even though the people with those other accents might have more money and education, they aren't necessarily considered higher on the local totem pole.
posted by Miko at 6:58 AM on February 12, 2011
As an American who has lived in areas marked by distinctive accents (deep South, Boston, Philadelphia, the Dakotas / Minnesota, Texas, Maine), though I might have noticed the way people spoke, since I was an outsider to the nuances of what each variation of accent connoted, they all sounded charming. I think it would take a long-time area resident to make an association as to class (and I'd argue it's less a class distinction than a judgment regarding the amount of formal education a person has received) based exclusively on an accent. Just as I bunch all Irish accents together, I bunch all Southern accents together as well (and I am delighted by both).
posted by notcomputersavvy06 at 6:58 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by notcomputersavvy06 at 6:58 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your comment made me think about one broad statement, notcomputersavvy06. I have also lived in both the South and North, and I think there is a widely encountered bias in the North that Southern accents of any kind - even the most patrician - make people sound dumb. Not poor necessarily, but dumb.
posted by Miko at 7:00 AM on February 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:00 AM on February 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
Miko nails it. I've lived all over the US, but grew up in the Northeast. Much as I love the region, the insularity (especially in Massachusetts) is irritating. And I recognize now the disdain for Southerners and Southern accents in particular. It's incredibly stupid.
posted by heigh-hothederryo at 7:20 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by heigh-hothederryo at 7:20 AM on February 12, 2011
I've thought about this a little bit in NY and I think that since we live in much more 'global times' and many (if i can say that?) people have the opportunity to be well-educated, well-travelled and are able to have diverse groups of friends...there is a little bit of a stigma that can go along with a local regional accent. Like heavy queens, or a heavy brooklyn/bronx accent. I don't think it's the same as in England where people used to be classified pretty quickly by their accents...it's just something that one might notice here and draw some (perhaps not politically correct?) conclusions about. FWIW, I love hearing southern accents...there's something really relaxing about them. I actually am happy to have a slightly weird accent/voice (canadian/work in brooklyn yo) because I think that it actually prevents people from being able to classify you in that way. Maybe I am overthinking this...will sign off now!
posted by bquarters at 7:23 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by bquarters at 7:23 AM on February 12, 2011
it's not as much an indication of class like it is in england as it is an indicator of geographical background or race. you are most likely able to guess the area someone is from but unless you live there and are familiar with the intricacies of local pronunciation it'll be tough to guess their class.
keep in mind that the united states have no traditional class system. there never was an aristocracy lifting commoners amongst its ranks for various achievements (hence nothing like the OBE, etc.). the only real separation was based on race. I am not sure if the difference in dialects beyond races audible today (compare country music to rap to experience what I mean) stems out of this but it might be a question worth investigating.
so yes, there are audible differences but you could only infer class standings if you had separate preconceived ideas about the standing of people stemming from a specific area or race or having achieved a certain level of education.
posted by krautland at 7:23 AM on February 12, 2011
keep in mind that the united states have no traditional class system. there never was an aristocracy lifting commoners amongst its ranks for various achievements (hence nothing like the OBE, etc.). the only real separation was based on race. I am not sure if the difference in dialects beyond races audible today (compare country music to rap to experience what I mean) stems out of this but it might be a question worth investigating.
so yes, there are audible differences but you could only infer class standings if you had separate preconceived ideas about the standing of people stemming from a specific area or race or having achieved a certain level of education.
posted by krautland at 7:23 AM on February 12, 2011
Point: Growing up in WV, children of those who had moved from other states/countries more or less had "standard" accents with some ticks sent in. These were almost all middle and upper class children. Many of those who had lived there for generations have Southern Appalachian accents. More of those were lower or lower middle class.
posted by sandmanwv at 7:37 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by sandmanwv at 7:37 AM on February 12, 2011
Best answer: Eyebrows McGee. You are making me cry. Proper Chicago natives pronounce it "Shi CAW go". Ask every mayor. It is a dialect idiom of sorts, since the northern miwdestern accent indeed would demand a long a. And I don't think the Midwestern accent puts an AW on the letter a anywhere else.
Immigrants and descendants of immigrants who prefer to maintain the newcomber identity pronounce it "Shi CAAA go". I've done research on this. The longer one's family has been in the city, and depending on how the speaker wants to self-identify, changes the pronunciation.
(Just a pet peeve of mine- I will fight to the dying breath to maintain the "chi CAW go" heritage. I'm probably going to end up as the last vestiges of a generation who says it that way, like people with the Brooklyn accent. I can't remember the source, but there was a HARD drop off in the Brooklyn "r" after about 1950. Something like 80% of Brooklyn natives born before some year used the "oy" r. "Toitey Toid street" or "listen to 'dem boids choipin' in New Joisey". (The Three Stooges accent.) And something like only 10% of the people born after that still used it.
You're right about everything else.)
(Funny aside: whenever I hear Pres. Obama speak, it makes me cringe because the president isn't supposed to sound like a Chicagoan. I am inordinately proud of him as a Chicagoan, but it just doesn't sound right to my US-American sensibilities.)
But that gets to my point. Accents are not just about the neighborhood someone grew up in. (See what I did there?) It is about identity too. Unless someone is just never exposed to anything but their particular regional accent, people will consciously or subconsciously affect an accent that puts them in the social group they want to fit into the most.
Class identity (and mobility) is another. Not just "low" class. The Boston Brahmins can afford to maintain their accent/dialect, because it doesn't hurt them to do so. As can people with "poor" accents- if everyone else talks like them too, so why change? But if you are looking to expand your breadth, or fit in with more people, like a career-minded television reporter, you are going to try to excise any regionalisms from your accent so that you can fit in anywhere.
Pilots are going to affect a Chuck Yeager accent, NASCAR drivers are going to affect a generic southern accent, surfers are going to affect a California surfer accent.
It might even go to personality type: an arrogant, hard nosed leader is going to maintain his own cultural accent, because he or she has the power of pulpit or personality and people will just have to figure it out. Everyone else will sort of fill in, and your toadies will try to affect the accent of whomever's favor they are looking to curry.
(I have two coworkers who are brothers. Twins, actually. You would never, ever guess it to hear them speak. Between the urge to differentiate themselves as individuals rather than as "the twins" and their personalities- one is a boss type, and one is more of a slacker, they have developed completely different speaking styles.)
posted by gjc at 7:44 AM on February 12, 2011
Immigrants and descendants of immigrants who prefer to maintain the newcomber identity pronounce it "Shi CAAA go". I've done research on this. The longer one's family has been in the city, and depending on how the speaker wants to self-identify, changes the pronunciation.
(Just a pet peeve of mine- I will fight to the dying breath to maintain the "chi CAW go" heritage. I'm probably going to end up as the last vestiges of a generation who says it that way, like people with the Brooklyn accent. I can't remember the source, but there was a HARD drop off in the Brooklyn "r" after about 1950. Something like 80% of Brooklyn natives born before some year used the "oy" r. "Toitey Toid street" or "listen to 'dem boids choipin' in New Joisey". (The Three Stooges accent.) And something like only 10% of the people born after that still used it.
You're right about everything else.)
(Funny aside: whenever I hear Pres. Obama speak, it makes me cringe because the president isn't supposed to sound like a Chicagoan. I am inordinately proud of him as a Chicagoan, but it just doesn't sound right to my US-American sensibilities.)
But that gets to my point. Accents are not just about the neighborhood someone grew up in. (See what I did there?) It is about identity too. Unless someone is just never exposed to anything but their particular regional accent, people will consciously or subconsciously affect an accent that puts them in the social group they want to fit into the most.
Class identity (and mobility) is another. Not just "low" class. The Boston Brahmins can afford to maintain their accent/dialect, because it doesn't hurt them to do so. As can people with "poor" accents- if everyone else talks like them too, so why change? But if you are looking to expand your breadth, or fit in with more people, like a career-minded television reporter, you are going to try to excise any regionalisms from your accent so that you can fit in anywhere.
Pilots are going to affect a Chuck Yeager accent, NASCAR drivers are going to affect a generic southern accent, surfers are going to affect a California surfer accent.
It might even go to personality type: an arrogant, hard nosed leader is going to maintain his own cultural accent, because he or she has the power of pulpit or personality and people will just have to figure it out. Everyone else will sort of fill in, and your toadies will try to affect the accent of whomever's favor they are looking to curry.
(I have two coworkers who are brothers. Twins, actually. You would never, ever guess it to hear them speak. Between the urge to differentiate themselves as individuals rather than as "the twins" and their personalities- one is a boss type, and one is more of a slacker, they have developed completely different speaking styles.)
posted by gjc at 7:44 AM on February 12, 2011
"Eyebrows McGee. You are making me cry. Proper Chicago natives pronounce it "Shi CAW go". Ask every mayor. It is a dialect idiom of sorts, since the northern miwdestern accent indeed would demand a long a. And I don't think the Midwestern accent puts an AW on the letter a anywhere else. Immigrants and descendants of immigrants who prefer to maintain the newcomber identity pronounce it "Shi CAAA go". I've done research on this. The longer one's family has been in the city, and depending on how the speaker wants to self-identify, changes the pronunciation."
gjc, my family's been there since it was Fort Dearborn. My family has been Cubs fans since there was baseball. I drew out the "a" not to indicate pronunciation but to emphasize that that's the vowel that I mangle as all Chicagoans do. Newcomer indeed!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:52 AM on February 12, 2011
gjc, my family's been there since it was Fort Dearborn. My family has been Cubs fans since there was baseball. I drew out the "a" not to indicate pronunciation but to emphasize that that's the vowel that I mangle as all Chicagoans do. Newcomer indeed!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:52 AM on February 12, 2011
Also, in the U.S., accents tend to infer intelligence, not class, per se. There would be a cognitive dissonance if someone were to try to explain physics with a thick Southern drawl, for example, even if the speaker were to be 100 percent technically correct.
Which was one of many reasons why it was fun to listen to Feynman explaining things. He was one of the most intelligent men who ever lived, but he sounded like a truck driver. He was born in Queens and never lost (and, I dare say, never tried to lose) his accent.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:55 AM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
Which was one of many reasons why it was fun to listen to Feynman explaining things. He was one of the most intelligent men who ever lived, but he sounded like a truck driver. He was born in Queens and never lost (and, I dare say, never tried to lose) his accent.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:55 AM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee has an interesting point about regional grammar-isms. I was raised in the South, and I can't let a "come with" slide. It sounds just plain wrong. At the same time, when someone from back home says "I might could do that," I find it charming.
(I've also found the same bias about regional cooking. Every region has their own gross dishes, except for where you were raised, which has "cuisine." I've met few people outside the South who understand the point of grits or sweet tea. I discovered "American Chop Suey" when I moved to Boston a couple years ago and my reaction was "what the hell is this? I thought you guys were smart up here." In Chicago, I was "why wouldn't you put ketchup on hot dogs? Tomatoes and peppers? Freak.")
I've noticed recently that, in addition to nearly everyone in their twenties sounding the same regardless of region, there's also a nerd accent. It's definitely an intelligent-sounding accent, and I can't really describe it, but it seems really tied to one certain type of person.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:59 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
(I've also found the same bias about regional cooking. Every region has their own gross dishes, except for where you were raised, which has "cuisine." I've met few people outside the South who understand the point of grits or sweet tea. I discovered "American Chop Suey" when I moved to Boston a couple years ago and my reaction was "what the hell is this? I thought you guys were smart up here." In Chicago, I was "why wouldn't you put ketchup on hot dogs? Tomatoes and peppers? Freak.")
I've noticed recently that, in addition to nearly everyone in their twenties sounding the same regardless of region, there's also a nerd accent. It's definitely an intelligent-sounding accent, and I can't really describe it, but it seems really tied to one certain type of person.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:59 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Nthing that perceptions of other regions in the US have more to do with perceived intelligence and sophistication than with "class" per se. Of course, since the US presents itself as being a meritocratic society in which everybody is some variant on the middle class, perceived intelligence markers work out as perceived class markers.
(Personal experience: carrier of a slight East Texas/southern drawl, more pronounced when anxious or upset, who spent several years in NY/NJ and was clearly repeatedly pigeonholed as stupid and lower class over it.)
posted by immlass at 8:12 AM on February 12, 2011
(Personal experience: carrier of a slight East Texas/southern drawl, more pronounced when anxious or upset, who spent several years in NY/NJ and was clearly repeatedly pigeonholed as stupid and lower class over it.)
posted by immlass at 8:12 AM on February 12, 2011
Metroid Baby: I agree that there's a nerd accent.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:22 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by madcaptenor at 8:22 AM on February 12, 2011
I'm a little late to the discussion, but this article in the New York Times last year on actors trying to lose their own "low class" accents might have some additional insight.
posted by stopgap at 8:43 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by stopgap at 8:43 AM on February 12, 2011
Accents are always class markers, but regional accents don't always signify lower class, as there are upper-class regional accents as well (I'm thinking of the south, but there are likely other examples).
posted by J. Wilson at 8:45 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by J. Wilson at 8:45 AM on February 12, 2011
in Boston, very educated people in charge of their departments in large universities and hospitals had extremely characteristic accents of the region.
As far as I'm aware, the differential is not "has accent" and "doesn't have accent". It's more about how much of an accent you have and which specific markers you use.
As a native southerner, working class people from Queens and middle class people from New Jersey both have accents in my opinion. But the accents are a little different.
The person from Queens might use a thick dialect heavily peppered with marked speech and local idioms ("Fugheddaboudit", for example). What you think of as a stereotypical New Yawk or "Brooklynese" accent.
Whereas the person from New Jersey might have an accent that's a little harder to place, or have it only be obvious when they say certain words - there's a certain dipthongy way they do certain vowels.
It's super obvious to me and a dead giveaway that someone is from the New York 'burbs, but I'd bet money that the person speaking doesn't think they have "an accent", and that fellow middle class New Yorkers wouldn't even hear it.
I also find in New York that there are a lot of different registers or microdialects that people inhabit, and you can surmise a lot about someone's background, class status, where in the area they live, etc, from the way they speak.
posted by Sara C. at 9:07 AM on February 12, 2011
As far as I'm aware, the differential is not "has accent" and "doesn't have accent". It's more about how much of an accent you have and which specific markers you use.
As a native southerner, working class people from Queens and middle class people from New Jersey both have accents in my opinion. But the accents are a little different.
The person from Queens might use a thick dialect heavily peppered with marked speech and local idioms ("Fugheddaboudit", for example). What you think of as a stereotypical New Yawk or "Brooklynese" accent.
Whereas the person from New Jersey might have an accent that's a little harder to place, or have it only be obvious when they say certain words - there's a certain dipthongy way they do certain vowels.
It's super obvious to me and a dead giveaway that someone is from the New York 'burbs, but I'd bet money that the person speaking doesn't think they have "an accent", and that fellow middle class New Yorkers wouldn't even hear it.
I also find in New York that there are a lot of different registers or microdialects that people inhabit, and you can surmise a lot about someone's background, class status, where in the area they live, etc, from the way they speak.
posted by Sara C. at 9:07 AM on February 12, 2011
Also, in the U.S., accents tend to infer intelligence, not class, per se.
This is a great observation that I want to expand on just a bit: it's a perfect example of how class, in America, comes to seem not like a product of social and economic structures but as an effect of natural individual intelligence, ability and worth. Our quick response to accents reproduces that fiction almost unconsciously.
posted by Tylwyth Teg at 9:14 AM on February 12, 2011 [15 favorites]
This is a great observation that I want to expand on just a bit: it's a perfect example of how class, in America, comes to seem not like a product of social and economic structures but as an effect of natural individual intelligence, ability and worth. Our quick response to accents reproduces that fiction almost unconsciously.
posted by Tylwyth Teg at 9:14 AM on February 12, 2011 [15 favorites]
I grew up in LA to parents who are from Chicago. I find myself, when trying to identify with blue collar, "plain folks", that I get the nasally As associated with Chicago (but never all the way to the Polishy "Da Bears"). When I'm trying to play cool, I get the lazy vowels and heavier Ss that are the SoCal accent (but not quite Vin Diesel). And when I'm going for professional or my "phone voice" I'm going for TV neutral with more depth in the chest rather than nose, which I at least associate with rich suburban Chicago (Oakbrooky). I'm sure I do it subconsciously because it fits with my perceptions and/or it's rewarded with people accepting me as such.
posted by Gucky at 9:19 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by Gucky at 9:19 AM on February 12, 2011
but not quite Vin Diesel
Vin Diesel is from New York.
Which might say a lot about dialect and how Americans think about it.
posted by Sara C. at 9:22 AM on February 12, 2011
Vin Diesel is from New York.
Which might say a lot about dialect and how Americans think about it.
posted by Sara C. at 9:22 AM on February 12, 2011
Best answer: Obama doesn't have a Chicago accent because he wasn't raised there.
John Kerry used to have a much stronger Boston accent, which can be heard in Winter Soldier.
I was just in Western NY. The accents west of the Hudson valley sounded Midwestern to me.
At Emerson College, one has to take a class learning US news announcer accent regardless of one's major.
posted by brujita at 9:46 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
John Kerry used to have a much stronger Boston accent, which can be heard in Winter Soldier.
I was just in Western NY. The accents west of the Hudson valley sounded Midwestern to me.
At Emerson College, one has to take a class learning US news announcer accent regardless of one's major.
posted by brujita at 9:46 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
I've noticed recently that, in addition to nearly everyone in their twenties sounding the same regardless of region, there's also a nerd accent. It's definitely an intelligent-sounding accent, and I can't really describe it, but it seems really tied to one certain type of person.
Nerd Lisp! Once you hear it you can;t unhear it and it is surprisingly pervasive.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 AM on February 12, 2011
Nerd Lisp! Once you hear it you can;t unhear it and it is surprisingly pervasive.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 AM on February 12, 2011
nearly everyone in their twenties sounding the same regardless of region
This is totally untrue. I think what you're hearing is the fact that most of the people you know who are in their twenties are from where you are from, and thus you don't hear their accent.
As someone who's moved from one region of the US to a vastly different region, I can promise you that regional accents definitely still exist, even in young people.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is totally untrue. I think what you're hearing is the fact that most of the people you know who are in their twenties are from where you are from, and thus you don't hear their accent.
As someone who's moved from one region of the US to a vastly different region, I can promise you that regional accents definitely still exist, even in young people.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Metroid Baby! Do you have any recorded examples, other than maybe Comic Book Guy as an exaggerated example? I emailed a linguist about 5 years ago about this-- calling it the Nerd Cadence, and I have been searching for recorded samples since. I think I may have even emailed languagehat...I have been on a quest!
/sorry for the derail
posted by oflinkey at 10:16 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
/sorry for the derail
posted by oflinkey at 10:16 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Going to a college with people from all over the country and world causes peoples' accents to become more neutral, as does listening to higher-class media (eg opera vs. rap). I don't know of any strong regional accents that are a positive class marker.
posted by sninctown at 10:21 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by sninctown at 10:21 AM on February 12, 2011
As a native New Yorker who is the child of parents who moved around a lot, I don't think New York accents are class based at all. It's based on how long you've lived in the City. People who are third generation New Yorkers (like my husband) sound like the stereotype "cuppa cawfee" New Yorkers whether they grew up poor or rich. My aunt is from Queens. Her family has been there for generations and think they're the New York equivalent of the Kennedys, yet she still sounds like she's from Queens.
posted by blueskiesinside at 10:21 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by blueskiesinside at 10:21 AM on February 12, 2011
oflinkey, the Penny Arcade podcasts have really strong Nerd Cadence.
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on February 12, 2011
I'm originally from Oklahoma and I've noticed a sharp distinction in my family alone between the accents of those of us with more years of education vs. those who didn't go on to college/etc. I grew up just a few miles from many of my cousins, but I speak relatively standard General American, while they have a noticeable Oklahoma accent (mix of Texas/lower Midwest/Ozark).
posted by fishmasta at 10:56 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by fishmasta at 10:56 AM on February 12, 2011
Sara C.: I'm in my late twenties and live in the Bay Area, but am originally from Philadelphia. I spend lots of time around people who aren't from around here. I don't notice their accents. (Well, except for one of my housemates who is from France.) Perhaps regional accents are stronger in some parts of the country than others?
posted by madcaptenor at 11:06 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by madcaptenor at 11:06 AM on February 12, 2011
I grew up in the San Fernando Valley and started consciously trying to lose that Valley-Girl twang and associated vocabulary in the summer before I went off to college. As a result, I now just "talk weird" and often get asked if I'm from Canada or the midwest. Can't speak for all regional accents, but I was damned sure I would've been disrespected constantly if I'd showed up at university talking that way. Sometimes, still, if I'm stressed out or upset I'll fall back into it, which is mortifying and makes everything worse. It's funny because I'd always read books as a kid where the character would do their embarrassing low-class childhood accent under pressure and never believed that happened. It always felt contrived.
There is one girl who talks "Valley" where I work, sort of, and she gets teased about it a lot. She isn't actually from the Valley, but sounds like she could be. I once did a "Julia impression" in order to adequately convey something she said to me and the acclaim of how accurate it was made me feel terrible. Yes, I can talk that way quite well, because it's where I'm actually from...
I'm an engineer and have noticed varying levels of nerd cadence at my workplaces. I think it's much commoner in the Pacific Northwest. I've always assumed it was just NT people unconsciously trying to imitate an aspie-ish lack of affect.
posted by little light-giver at 11:13 AM on February 12, 2011
There is one girl who talks "Valley" where I work, sort of, and she gets teased about it a lot. She isn't actually from the Valley, but sounds like she could be. I once did a "Julia impression" in order to adequately convey something she said to me and the acclaim of how accurate it was made me feel terrible. Yes, I can talk that way quite well, because it's where I'm actually from...
I'm an engineer and have noticed varying levels of nerd cadence at my workplaces. I think it's much commoner in the Pacific Northwest. I've always assumed it was just NT people unconsciously trying to imitate an aspie-ish lack of affect.
posted by little light-giver at 11:13 AM on February 12, 2011
I would agree that in the USA, accents mark you as educated or not in many cases, rather upperclass or lowerclass. There are some upperclass accents, like the Foghorn Leghorn southern accent or the Boston Brahmin accent, or the mid-Atlantic.
I grew up in Chicago (yes, another one), in Lincoln Park, which is a pretty prosperous neighborhood. You could hear some Chicago (or generic midwestern) aspects of my accent, but mostly I think it sounded pretty neutral. White south-siders had a completely different accent (think Richard J&M Daley) that always struck me as uneducated. Deep-south accents always made the speaker sound dumb. Then again, I was a teenager and didn't know better.
posted by adamrice at 11:27 AM on February 12, 2011
I grew up in Chicago (yes, another one), in Lincoln Park, which is a pretty prosperous neighborhood. You could hear some Chicago (or generic midwestern) aspects of my accent, but mostly I think it sounded pretty neutral. White south-siders had a completely different accent (think Richard J&M Daley) that always struck me as uneducated. Deep-south accents always made the speaker sound dumb. Then again, I was a teenager and didn't know better.
posted by adamrice at 11:27 AM on February 12, 2011
I don't think accents are "stronger" in some parts of the country than others, but there are two factors at play here. Firstly, what someone said upthread about western/California accents being ubiquitous in the media is certainly true.
Secondly, those accents are also a little less codified as compared to Philly or New York or Boston. California is still a relatively new part of the country, in the grand scheme. Many or even most people who are "from" the Bay Area have families who've only been in that area for the last few generations - and those people's ancestors who moved to California likely moved there from other parts of the US, not from Italy or Sweden or Ireland. The California accent (aside from the most extreme SoCal/Valley speak) sounds a lot like the accent of the west or midwest to me. I generally can't tell the difference between someone from Portland, someone from Berkley, and someone from Salt Lake City, for example. It's not like the east coast where you hear a pronounced difference between communities that are only a few hundred miles apart.
You being from Philadelphia, though - I would bet money that if I had you say a few specific words (bagel, water) I could immediately tell you were from there. Whether you were a millionaire or on welfare.
posted by Sara C. at 11:28 AM on February 12, 2011
Secondly, those accents are also a little less codified as compared to Philly or New York or Boston. California is still a relatively new part of the country, in the grand scheme. Many or even most people who are "from" the Bay Area have families who've only been in that area for the last few generations - and those people's ancestors who moved to California likely moved there from other parts of the US, not from Italy or Sweden or Ireland. The California accent (aside from the most extreme SoCal/Valley speak) sounds a lot like the accent of the west or midwest to me. I generally can't tell the difference between someone from Portland, someone from Berkley, and someone from Salt Lake City, for example. It's not like the east coast where you hear a pronounced difference between communities that are only a few hundred miles apart.
You being from Philadelphia, though - I would bet money that if I had you say a few specific words (bagel, water) I could immediately tell you were from there. Whether you were a millionaire or on welfare.
posted by Sara C. at 11:28 AM on February 12, 2011
The Speech Accent Archive is a fun tool to explore.
"The speech accent archive uniformly presents a large set of speech samples from a variety of language backgrounds. Native and non-native speakers of English read the same paragraph and are carefully transcribed. The archive is used by people who wish to compare and analyze the accents of different English speakers."
posted by Room 641-A at 11:46 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
"The speech accent archive uniformly presents a large set of speech samples from a variety of language backgrounds. Native and non-native speakers of English read the same paragraph and are carefully transcribed. The archive is used by people who wish to compare and analyze the accents of different English speakers."
posted by Room 641-A at 11:46 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I find it interesting that you can point to the start of a steep decline in the prevalence of 'upper class' accents, regional and otherwise, to WWII and the subsequent era of American prosperity. It's one of those things that seems odd, until you actually start thinking about it, and you realize that the war would inevitably shake up US speech patterns and accents in all sorts of ways.
An entire generation of American men, who maybe would have been born, lived and died all in the same county were suddenly mixed together and sent to Europe. When they returned, many chose to settle elsewhere. The biggest blow to upper-class accent, however, was the GI Bill -- exclusive prep schools and universities literally taught mid-atlantic speech patterns, and shamed the manageable number of 'outsiders' into affecting their way of speaking. Following WWII, the U.S. sent soldiers of all class backgrounds to college, overwhelming the universities' formerly homogenous speech patterns.
A combination of the democratization of higher education and the subsequent post-war economic boom created a period of greater class mobility the likes of which the US hadn't seen since it tamed the frontier that lasted ~25 years before, sadly, being killed in favor of an unprecedented rise in income disparity.
posted by patnasty at 12:19 PM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
An entire generation of American men, who maybe would have been born, lived and died all in the same county were suddenly mixed together and sent to Europe. When they returned, many chose to settle elsewhere. The biggest blow to upper-class accent, however, was the GI Bill -- exclusive prep schools and universities literally taught mid-atlantic speech patterns, and shamed the manageable number of 'outsiders' into affecting their way of speaking. Following WWII, the U.S. sent soldiers of all class backgrounds to college, overwhelming the universities' formerly homogenous speech patterns.
A combination of the democratization of higher education and the subsequent post-war economic boom created a period of greater class mobility the likes of which the US hadn't seen since it tamed the frontier that lasted ~25 years before, sadly, being killed in favor of an unprecedented rise in income disparity.
posted by patnasty at 12:19 PM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
**Diction-Pet-Peeve-Warning**
Don't mean to be douchey, but I noticed a few posters using the word "infer" to mean suggest or imply, saying that a certain accent "inferred intelligence." To infer means to derive or deduce -- the accent might imply intelligence, and thus a person could thus infer someone's intelligence from it.
posted by patnasty at 12:29 PM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Don't mean to be douchey, but I noticed a few posters using the word "infer" to mean suggest or imply, saying that a certain accent "inferred intelligence." To infer means to derive or deduce -- the accent might imply intelligence, and thus a person could thus infer someone's intelligence from it.
posted by patnasty at 12:29 PM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Don't mean to be douchey, but I noticed a few posters using the word "infer" to mean suggest or imply, saying that a certain accent "inferred intelligence." To infer means to derive or deduce -- the accent might imply intelligence, and thus a person could thus infer someone's intelligence from it.
Well, to deduce is the main (preferred) meaning, but there is also a dictionary definition of infer as "to hint or imply." Not an "error," just not the major use, and becoming more common in vernacular English. Not to be douchey or anything.
posted by Tylwyth Teg at 1:18 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, to deduce is the main (preferred) meaning, but there is also a dictionary definition of infer as "to hint or imply." Not an "error," just not the major use, and becoming more common in vernacular English. Not to be douchey or anything.
posted by Tylwyth Teg at 1:18 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your comment made me think about one broad statement, notcomputersavvy06. I have also lived in both the South and North, and I think there is a widely encountered bias in the North that Southern accents of any kind - even the most patrician - make people sound dumb. Not poor necessarily, but dumb.
posted by Miko at 10:00 AM on February 12 [4 favorites +] [!]
True Story...
I moved into an apartment complex during my second year of school at a large, deep South university. One of the girls next door was from Michigan. We got to be buddies, hanging out on the porch and talking about all kind of things. One night, she said to me..."Meg, you have changed my opinion, I've always thought that all Southerners were stupid but you aren't".
In all honesty, I said back to her, "And I always thought that all yankees were incredibly rude but you're working on it."
It was one of those rare (especially for me) moments where you have the perfect come-back, at the right time and not hours later. She died laughing, we went and got a beer and remained friends..... until she transfered back up North somewhere.
posted by pearlybob at 1:20 PM on February 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
I find it interesting that you can point to the start of a steep decline in the prevalence of 'upper class' accents, regional and otherwise, to WWII and the subsequent era of American prosperity.
The class mixing of WWII was definitely a point in this conversion, but I'd argue that the proliferation of radio and television broadcasts -- actors and news readers with flat accents -- were likely more powerful.
Don't mean to be douchey, but I noticed a few posters using the word "infer" to mean suggest or imply
It's OK. Just know that in my head, I'm imagining you saying this with a nerd cadence. ;-)
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:31 PM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
The class mixing of WWII was definitely a point in this conversion, but I'd argue that the proliferation of radio and television broadcasts -- actors and news readers with flat accents -- were likely more powerful.
Don't mean to be douchey, but I noticed a few posters using the word "infer" to mean suggest or imply
It's OK. Just know that in my head, I'm imagining you saying this with a nerd cadence. ;-)
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:31 PM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
[i]The class mixing of WWII was definitely a point in this conversion, but I'd argue that the proliferation of radio and television broadcasts -- actors and news readers with flat accents -- were likely more powerful.[/i]
But television and radio broadcasts were themselves subject to the influence of post-war restructuring of class and our conception of it. Pre-WWII, the cinema and airwaves were ruled by the Edith Skinner version of the mid-Atlantic accents that all actors were taught during most of the studio era of Hollywood. One might expect that this would cause Americans of all classes to start adopting its anglo-inflected speech patterns, but it evidentially did not -- my guess would be that there was enough correction from social pressure against "putting on airs" to prevent accidental conditioning.
What I find interesting is that Hollywood starts to shake off its love-affair with its artificial upper-class accents almost immediately once the war era begins -- Wayne and Bogart, the two actors most commonly credited with breaking the grip of transatlanticism on Hollywood, had their breakout roles in '39 and '41 respectively. I suppose it makes sense that watching Europe implode upon itself might make America's native voice more fashionable, and one would certainly expect a rise in national pride once our involvement started to appear inevitable.
Indeed, it wasn't until WWII that the flat patterns of the (pre-vowel-shift) Ohio/Des-Moines/Peoria region became the General American accent of newscasters and voice actors.
posted by patnasty at 2:24 PM on February 12, 2011
But television and radio broadcasts were themselves subject to the influence of post-war restructuring of class and our conception of it. Pre-WWII, the cinema and airwaves were ruled by the Edith Skinner version of the mid-Atlantic accents that all actors were taught during most of the studio era of Hollywood. One might expect that this would cause Americans of all classes to start adopting its anglo-inflected speech patterns, but it evidentially did not -- my guess would be that there was enough correction from social pressure against "putting on airs" to prevent accidental conditioning.
What I find interesting is that Hollywood starts to shake off its love-affair with its artificial upper-class accents almost immediately once the war era begins -- Wayne and Bogart, the two actors most commonly credited with breaking the grip of transatlanticism on Hollywood, had their breakout roles in '39 and '41 respectively. I suppose it makes sense that watching Europe implode upon itself might make America's native voice more fashionable, and one would certainly expect a rise in national pride once our involvement started to appear inevitable.
Indeed, it wasn't until WWII that the flat patterns of the (pre-vowel-shift) Ohio/Des-Moines/Peoria region became the General American accent of newscasters and voice actors.
posted by patnasty at 2:24 PM on February 12, 2011
Not meaning to hog the thread but I have one more tale about how my Southern accent. My Hubby had a conference in Vancouver, this was way before babies so I went along. He would leave at 7 AM and I had the day to explore the (BEAUTIFUL!!!) city!! Our hotel had a market on the bottom floor so on day one, I went down to get breakfast before catching the ferry to go across the bay to explore. I picked a place, walked up to the counter and ordered. The gentleman behind the counter just went nuts. He called over his partner and asked me to repeat it. Not sure what was going on, I did. They had some thing for Southern Accents.....not weird, just rarely heard them. For seven days, I would go there for breakfast and they never let me pay. They just wanted to hear me talk. It was fun and I ATE it up...literally!! By day three, Katie Scarlett O'Hara had NOTHING on me. I was drawling with the best of them... A good experience, a lovely business who made this Georgia girl happy and we got to exchange a little culture.
posted by pearlybob at 2:34 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by pearlybob at 2:34 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, to deduce is the main (preferred) meaning, but there is also a dictionary definition of infer as "to hint or imply." Not an "error," just not the major use, and becoming more common in vernacular English. Not to be douchey or anything.
Modern dictionaries are descriptivist - if enough people start to misuse a word in a particular way, it'll end up in the dictionary, and all of a sudden, it's "correct."
I understand that all living languages change over time, but the inevitable evolution of language doesn't mean we have to uncritically accept all changing trends in speech just as the inevitable evolution of species doesn't mean we have to accept the extinction of endangered species. When words begin to become synonyms with their own antonyms, a language's capacity for precision communication objectively deteriorates.
posted by patnasty at 2:38 PM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
Modern dictionaries are descriptivist - if enough people start to misuse a word in a particular way, it'll end up in the dictionary, and all of a sudden, it's "correct."
I understand that all living languages change over time, but the inevitable evolution of language doesn't mean we have to uncritically accept all changing trends in speech just as the inevitable evolution of species doesn't mean we have to accept the extinction of endangered species. When words begin to become synonyms with their own antonyms, a language's capacity for precision communication objectively deteriorates.
posted by patnasty at 2:38 PM on February 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
Pre-WWII, the cinema and airwaves were ruled by the Edith Skinner version of the mid-Atlantic accents that all actors were taught during most of the studio era of Hollywood.
And think about the contrast between that register and the speech of Lucy and Desi, or the cast of The Honeymooners. TV definitely changed the predominant "voice" of the American media.
Though I'll admit I don't know enough about radio to know what the predominant accent was like there, and how that affected the national psyche.
posted by Sara C. at 2:43 PM on February 12, 2011
And think about the contrast between that register and the speech of Lucy and Desi, or the cast of The Honeymooners. TV definitely changed the predominant "voice" of the American media.
Though I'll admit I don't know enough about radio to know what the predominant accent was like there, and how that affected the national psyche.
posted by Sara C. at 2:43 PM on February 12, 2011
Also, in the U.S., accents tend to infer intelligence, not class, per se.
This. Marks me as ignorant, I know; but no matter what you're saying if it's being delivered with an intense Southern or Brooklyn accent, you sound like an idiot to me.
posted by Rash at 4:57 PM on February 12, 2011
This. Marks me as ignorant, I know; but no matter what you're saying if it's being delivered with an intense Southern or Brooklyn accent, you sound like an idiot to me.
posted by Rash at 4:57 PM on February 12, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks you all so much for your thoughtful answers.
It seems like most people learn a "standard" accent when they go to college - so that a regional accent suggests a lack of college education than class background (although of course the two go hand in hand). AAVE would be the top example of this.
It blew my mind that some colleges (like Emerson) have a mandatory "standard" accent class! This really formalises and reinforces the social construct that "standard accent = college educated".
posted by dave99 at 5:51 PM on February 12, 2011
It seems like most people learn a "standard" accent when they go to college - so that a regional accent suggests a lack of college education than class background (although of course the two go hand in hand). AAVE would be the top example of this.
It blew my mind that some colleges (like Emerson) have a mandatory "standard" accent class! This really formalises and reinforces the social construct that "standard accent = college educated".
posted by dave99 at 5:51 PM on February 12, 2011
Response by poster: Make that "rather than class background", eek...
posted by dave99 at 5:52 PM on February 12, 2011
posted by dave99 at 5:52 PM on February 12, 2011
I grew up in the South and lived later in the Midwest and have been for some time now in the Northeast. I think class (or education--they are closely tied) indicators have more to do with vocabulary than accent.
In the South, if you say, "Mash this button here, like 'at," it's definitely a class (or education) indicator.
posted by torticat at 6:34 PM on February 12, 2011
In the South, if you say, "Mash this button here, like 'at," it's definitely a class (or education) indicator.
posted by torticat at 6:34 PM on February 12, 2011
Hmm, I'm not sure it's so much that we learn a standard accent these days when we go to college -- although that may have been what happened post-WWII. But think about the kids of the folks in that generation who went to college, lost their accents, and moved up the social ladder. These kids grew up with parents (and parents' friends) who spoke without regional accents, and thus didn't have them themselves. Same for their kids, which gets you to my generation!
Today, it may be that people who grow up with stronger regional accents do in fact lose them in college. But I doubt that's the dominant source of accent-less Americans.
Also: I think a certain type of geographical mobility tends to be much more common among white-collar folks. Pursuing an education tends to take you around the country, particularly if you've got the means to pay for a private university and aren't constrained to the state school where you grew up. Then grad school will take you to a different place. If you're highly educated, you will likely be looking for jobs around the country (or internationally). Most importantly, everybody around you will have been similarly mobile. I don't think I knew anybody growing up whose family had been in my city for more than one generation -- I don't think any of my friend's parents were born there, even. There's really no chance for a regional accent to take hold in this kind of environment.
posted by wyzewoman at 7:44 PM on February 12, 2011
Today, it may be that people who grow up with stronger regional accents do in fact lose them in college. But I doubt that's the dominant source of accent-less Americans.
Also: I think a certain type of geographical mobility tends to be much more common among white-collar folks. Pursuing an education tends to take you around the country, particularly if you've got the means to pay for a private university and aren't constrained to the state school where you grew up. Then grad school will take you to a different place. If you're highly educated, you will likely be looking for jobs around the country (or internationally). Most importantly, everybody around you will have been similarly mobile. I don't think I knew anybody growing up whose family had been in my city for more than one generation -- I don't think any of my friend's parents were born there, even. There's really no chance for a regional accent to take hold in this kind of environment.
posted by wyzewoman at 7:44 PM on February 12, 2011
To be honest, I didn't worry about my accent and going far from home for college. I also don't remember "learning" a "standard" accent there, at all. I gradually lost whatever southern accent I had, but that was after years and years living up north (well after college). And even now, talking to anyone with that accent brings it all back up. If I were to move back down south, it would come back.
I've never gotten any flack for my accent from northerners. If anything, I'm mocked for saying things like "you guys" and "soda" when I go back home.
posted by Sara C. at 8:31 PM on February 12, 2011
I've never gotten any flack for my accent from northerners. If anything, I'm mocked for saying things like "you guys" and "soda" when I go back home.
posted by Sara C. at 8:31 PM on February 12, 2011
Emerson was originally just for speech and communication.
posted by brujita at 8:37 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 8:37 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would definitely not agree that it's college that homogenizes accents. It happens long before that.
In my family, my grandmother's native Irish brogue and any Bronx influence were both drilled out of her and her brothers by the nuns at Catholic school. They all spoke beautiful standard English but could also put the Irish back on, or deliver a perfect street-ese. But in their early schooling, there was a definite desired diction and it was explicitly taught. My mother sounds the same, and had the same schooling, and I sound basically the same as well, although when in the right company I can slip back into the Texas drawl that comes from my father's side, or maybe open up a little can o'Jersey. Some of this is malleable, and people do code-switch based on who's around and what they're trying to accomplish. I suspect I'm not the only one with more than one viable "accent," but I default to the basic standard.
posted by Miko at 8:48 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
In my family, my grandmother's native Irish brogue and any Bronx influence were both drilled out of her and her brothers by the nuns at Catholic school. They all spoke beautiful standard English but could also put the Irish back on, or deliver a perfect street-ese. But in their early schooling, there was a definite desired diction and it was explicitly taught. My mother sounds the same, and had the same schooling, and I sound basically the same as well, although when in the right company I can slip back into the Texas drawl that comes from my father's side, or maybe open up a little can o'Jersey. Some of this is malleable, and people do code-switch based on who's around and what they're trying to accomplish. I suspect I'm not the only one with more than one viable "accent," but I default to the basic standard.
posted by Miko at 8:48 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yes, Emerson is a communication-oriented school, so that class is in no way the norm for college kids.
Also, while some academics might have faint regional accents here in the northeast, they are usually not pronounced Boston accents. I have one colleague who regularly says "dater" for "data" and it garners snickers Every Time, because a strong accent is a marker of education and class. Shouldn't be so (see references to AAVE), but it's true for most.
posted by ldthomps at 8:53 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, while some academics might have faint regional accents here in the northeast, they are usually not pronounced Boston accents. I have one colleague who regularly says "dater" for "data" and it garners snickers Every Time, because a strong accent is a marker of education and class. Shouldn't be so (see references to AAVE), but it's true for most.
posted by ldthomps at 8:53 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Living in San Francisco I hear very few people with any more than slight accents. (Well, born English speakers anyway.) The one accent that is by far the most prevalent is a light "California" accent. (a bit surfer, a bit valley, a bit hippy.)
And that would be as expected -- except a huge percentage of people who live in SF were born and raised elsewhere in the US. A know people who can turn on a sweet Georgia drawl, a Minnesota lilt, a Kentucky twang, or the regional accents of Texas, Boston, New Jersey, New York, Chicago and others. They can turn it on and off light a switch.
But only when there's a good reason for it. It's usually "off". It's usually only turned on when surrounded by people using the same accent. When I ask people about it they universally say "Yeah, I had to drop the accent as soon as I got here or they'd treat me like an idiot. But I have to put it back on when I go back or they'll treat me like an idiot."
posted by Ookseer at 9:04 PM on February 12, 2011
And that would be as expected -- except a huge percentage of people who live in SF were born and raised elsewhere in the US. A know people who can turn on a sweet Georgia drawl, a Minnesota lilt, a Kentucky twang, or the regional accents of Texas, Boston, New Jersey, New York, Chicago and others. They can turn it on and off light a switch.
But only when there's a good reason for it. It's usually "off". It's usually only turned on when surrounded by people using the same accent. When I ask people about it they universally say "Yeah, I had to drop the accent as soon as I got here or they'd treat me like an idiot. But I have to put it back on when I go back or they'll treat me like an idiot."
posted by Ookseer at 9:04 PM on February 12, 2011
I understand that all living languages change over time, but the inevitable evolution of language doesn't mean we have to uncritically accept all changing trends in speech just as the inevitable evolution of species doesn't mean we have to accept the extinction of endangered species. When words begin to become synonyms with their own antonyms, a language's capacity for precision communication objectively deteriorates.
I think this is somewhat of a flawed analogy, and misses some of the points about language change. Yes, languages do go extinct, like species do, and this is certainly something to work against. But that's not the case here. A living language is a system, and it will correct itself. If "infer" is really being used as its "own antonym," and if this presents serious enough communicative issues, then native English speakers will *naturally* begin to use another construction to re-form the precision for communication.
Take the second-person pronoun. Standard English only has "you," for both the singular and plural. This clearly is a huge loss of precision. And that's exactly why we have y'all, you guys, yinz and other non-standard, non-formal, oft-stigmatized second-person forms that are nevertheless extremely resilient, because speakers feel a need for the distinction and organically form the distinction, maintaining our ability for precision communication.
None of this is to deny the existence of formal spoken and written English, which has its own artificially and consciously set rules. I (and many other native English-speakers) use singular they ("Someone followed me into the alley and I ran away because they were creeping me out"), which is incorrect in formal English as "they" is supposed to be used only for singular references. Nevertheless, many thousands of English-speakers feel the need for a gender-free singular third-person pronoun, and "they" works perfectly well in this context. I avoid singular they in my formal speech and writing because I want to sound intelligent and educated and it's a dictate of standard formal English, but this doesn't imply that singular they is a loss of communicative precision or is not "real English."
posted by andrewesque at 9:13 AM on February 13, 2011
I think this is somewhat of a flawed analogy, and misses some of the points about language change. Yes, languages do go extinct, like species do, and this is certainly something to work against. But that's not the case here. A living language is a system, and it will correct itself. If "infer" is really being used as its "own antonym," and if this presents serious enough communicative issues, then native English speakers will *naturally* begin to use another construction to re-form the precision for communication.
Take the second-person pronoun. Standard English only has "you," for both the singular and plural. This clearly is a huge loss of precision. And that's exactly why we have y'all, you guys, yinz and other non-standard, non-formal, oft-stigmatized second-person forms that are nevertheless extremely resilient, because speakers feel a need for the distinction and organically form the distinction, maintaining our ability for precision communication.
None of this is to deny the existence of formal spoken and written English, which has its own artificially and consciously set rules. I (and many other native English-speakers) use singular they ("Someone followed me into the alley and I ran away because they were creeping me out"), which is incorrect in formal English as "they" is supposed to be used only for singular references. Nevertheless, many thousands of English-speakers feel the need for a gender-free singular third-person pronoun, and "they" works perfectly well in this context. I avoid singular they in my formal speech and writing because I want to sound intelligent and educated and it's a dictate of standard formal English, but this doesn't imply that singular they is a loss of communicative precision or is not "real English."
posted by andrewesque at 9:13 AM on February 13, 2011
My moniker is from my idea of the regional identity of my city. We can be "Southern" when we want to be, but are also striving for an idea of the Midwest that is not geographically accurate but nonetheless conceptually powerful. On one hand, especially at certain times of the year, people don the Southern like an ostentatious Easter bonnet, and yet on the other hand, we are in an area of flux with traffic going north, south, and west for a while now. All this is to say, different performances, often at cross purposes, are privileged by different groups with different levels of education, landownership, and clout, at different times.
posted by MidSouthern Mouth at 12:21 PM on February 13, 2011
posted by MidSouthern Mouth at 12:21 PM on February 13, 2011
A researcher from Carnegie Mellon found that Pittsburghese is dying out, but when it is used, it's being used by college-educated people who are trying to turn on a regional identity, which is turning all the class-based assumptions on their heads. Here's an article about it I read recently.
posted by oreofuchi at 6:57 AM on February 14, 2011
posted by oreofuchi at 6:57 AM on February 14, 2011
Don't have time to find a link now, but I've read that regional accents are actually on the rise, due to just the phenomenon oreofuchi mentions - an upswing in self-conscious regional identity, perhaps a reaction against cultural homogenization.
posted by Miko at 7:04 AM on February 14, 2011
posted by Miko at 7:04 AM on February 14, 2011
Oh, wasn't that hard to find after all. "Do You Speak Bostonian? Scholars say U.S. regional accents are alive, well--and getting stronger".
posted by Miko at 7:07 AM on February 14, 2011
posted by Miko at 7:07 AM on February 14, 2011
Definitely a class marker. I live in Minneapolis, and essentially everyone who has the famous "Minnesota" accent grew up in a small town and didn't go to college. Among the overeducated geeks I hang out with, way more people have Northeast accents than Minnesota accents...heck, probably more people I know have Chinese accents.
posted by miyabo at 11:01 AM on February 14, 2011
posted by miyabo at 11:01 AM on February 14, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think the fact that white Detroit residents have a "middle-class" accent is partially why some people find the story of Detroit so fascinating, they do not feel the residents are "other".
posted by saucysault at 4:17 AM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]