"fiancé" or "finance?"
January 31, 2011 6:19 PM Subscribe
Need a little advice about a relationship, finances & the future. I'm recently engaged to someone I get along well with & we have a lot in common. But I'm starting to find out that financially, he's a little up the creek & is now asking for my assistance.
Here's a little background: This is my first relationship after my divorce a few years ago. I was in that marriage for a long time, and there were no financial issues -my ex and I both split the bills 50/50 or 60/40, depending on our individual incomes. Money was never the cause of any of our problems, the marriage ended for other reasons. Before I was married, I was always independent - supporting myself since age 17, and putting myself through college.
The divorce was difficult financially for me, because soon after the split, my company downsized, and I could only find a low-paying part-time job. I worked my butt off during that time, doing whatever I could to stay afloat. It was hard, but I was happy. I managed to pay my lawyer in full, continue to make my car payment, and paid off my credit cards. (I didn't get any $$ in the divorce settlement.) I was renting a room from a girlfriend, and started dating my (now) fiancé. We had known each other for years as friends, and when we started dating, everything was great.
After a while, I decided to start looking for my own apartment. My budget for rent was very low, so i was looking for studios & places in not-so-great neighborhoods. My fiancé (boyfriend at the time) said that instead of renting, for the same amount ($500/mo - what I could afford), I could live with him in his nice townhome. I was hesitant at first because I did not want to rush into anything, but we talked it out & agreed to see how things went.
Things went just fine. Living together is nice, we really do get a long great. The only complaint I have is that I don't really have any of my own space - not even my own closet. That's fine tho, I can deal with that - and for $500, it's good for me.
So now for the tricky part. He is self employed. Before we dated, he lived there with his ex. He was engaged to her too. Business for him is not so good, and right now he's got a bunch of debt on his business credit cards, and is filing bankruptcy on his personal debts. The townhome mortgage is hard for him to make each month, but he wants to try to keep it through the bankruptcy, so the mortgage payments need to be up-to-date. I think the payments are $1500/mo.
I got a great new job in November. It doesn't pay a fantastic amount of money, but I am more comfortable than I've been in years. I am comfortable paying my bills, and I have been buying all the groceries for both of us, and paying for everything whenever we go out. That all adds up! I also do all the cooking because he doesn't cook, and If I don't cook our option is to go out - and well, I'm paying if we go out - so I try not to suggest that.
He proposed to me in the middle of November. I was completely surprised by it. I said yes because I do love him. I admit that I didn't want to get married right away, but was thinking that a long engagement would be nice. We talked about how we might want to get married, and estimated what it would cost, and we both agree that it couldn't be done anyway for at least a year & a half.
Now he is asking that we combine finances, and he's also mentioned that he'll need a lot of financial help from me as he goes through the bankruptcy. This is where I'm starting to feel frightened. He left his last fiancé pretty quickly - when we met. She made good money & I'm sure paid for most things as well. I'm a little scared that he might do the same thing to me if someone better comes along. We're not married yet, so I don't feel comfortable combining our financial situation. Mine is actually pretty good - his is abysmal!
I don't think it's fair for me to pay for his past debt and poor decision to buy a house that was out of his means. I have goals, and I really don't think it's fair for me to spend money on his past mistakes.
Also - he's really not trying very hard to improve his income. I know business has taken a turn for the worse, but I really don't see a lot of effort on his part to improve anything. He says he can't get a real job because he just can't work for other people, and having a work schedule would just drive him crazy. He spends an awful lot of time on Facebook too - like all day long, not really posting - more like reading everything from everyone & wasting a lot of time on useless things. I would never say anything though, It's not my job to tell him how to work. Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way. I'm a little resentful because during my time of being employed part-time, I really did work my butt off. I did what I had to do to pay the bills. I never asked for help. I feel that if I was willing to work menial not-fun jobs, why can't he? I understand he has absolutely no patience and we are different in that regard, but if you're not paying your bills, you really should suck it up and work harder, right?
So, the advice I'm seeking is hard to sum up into one clear questions. I am trying to figure out how to explain my feelings to him without sounding like I'm not committed to the relationship. I would like a future with him, but financially, I can't commit like that. And also - does the fact that I'm even thinking about all this mean that I'm not ready to marry him?
Here's a little background: This is my first relationship after my divorce a few years ago. I was in that marriage for a long time, and there were no financial issues -my ex and I both split the bills 50/50 or 60/40, depending on our individual incomes. Money was never the cause of any of our problems, the marriage ended for other reasons. Before I was married, I was always independent - supporting myself since age 17, and putting myself through college.
The divorce was difficult financially for me, because soon after the split, my company downsized, and I could only find a low-paying part-time job. I worked my butt off during that time, doing whatever I could to stay afloat. It was hard, but I was happy. I managed to pay my lawyer in full, continue to make my car payment, and paid off my credit cards. (I didn't get any $$ in the divorce settlement.) I was renting a room from a girlfriend, and started dating my (now) fiancé. We had known each other for years as friends, and when we started dating, everything was great.
After a while, I decided to start looking for my own apartment. My budget for rent was very low, so i was looking for studios & places in not-so-great neighborhoods. My fiancé (boyfriend at the time) said that instead of renting, for the same amount ($500/mo - what I could afford), I could live with him in his nice townhome. I was hesitant at first because I did not want to rush into anything, but we talked it out & agreed to see how things went.
Things went just fine. Living together is nice, we really do get a long great. The only complaint I have is that I don't really have any of my own space - not even my own closet. That's fine tho, I can deal with that - and for $500, it's good for me.
So now for the tricky part. He is self employed. Before we dated, he lived there with his ex. He was engaged to her too. Business for him is not so good, and right now he's got a bunch of debt on his business credit cards, and is filing bankruptcy on his personal debts. The townhome mortgage is hard for him to make each month, but he wants to try to keep it through the bankruptcy, so the mortgage payments need to be up-to-date. I think the payments are $1500/mo.
I got a great new job in November. It doesn't pay a fantastic amount of money, but I am more comfortable than I've been in years. I am comfortable paying my bills, and I have been buying all the groceries for both of us, and paying for everything whenever we go out. That all adds up! I also do all the cooking because he doesn't cook, and If I don't cook our option is to go out - and well, I'm paying if we go out - so I try not to suggest that.
He proposed to me in the middle of November. I was completely surprised by it. I said yes because I do love him. I admit that I didn't want to get married right away, but was thinking that a long engagement would be nice. We talked about how we might want to get married, and estimated what it would cost, and we both agree that it couldn't be done anyway for at least a year & a half.
Now he is asking that we combine finances, and he's also mentioned that he'll need a lot of financial help from me as he goes through the bankruptcy. This is where I'm starting to feel frightened. He left his last fiancé pretty quickly - when we met. She made good money & I'm sure paid for most things as well. I'm a little scared that he might do the same thing to me if someone better comes along. We're not married yet, so I don't feel comfortable combining our financial situation. Mine is actually pretty good - his is abysmal!
I don't think it's fair for me to pay for his past debt and poor decision to buy a house that was out of his means. I have goals, and I really don't think it's fair for me to spend money on his past mistakes.
Also - he's really not trying very hard to improve his income. I know business has taken a turn for the worse, but I really don't see a lot of effort on his part to improve anything. He says he can't get a real job because he just can't work for other people, and having a work schedule would just drive him crazy. He spends an awful lot of time on Facebook too - like all day long, not really posting - more like reading everything from everyone & wasting a lot of time on useless things. I would never say anything though, It's not my job to tell him how to work. Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way. I'm a little resentful because during my time of being employed part-time, I really did work my butt off. I did what I had to do to pay the bills. I never asked for help. I feel that if I was willing to work menial not-fun jobs, why can't he? I understand he has absolutely no patience and we are different in that regard, but if you're not paying your bills, you really should suck it up and work harder, right?
So, the advice I'm seeking is hard to sum up into one clear questions. I am trying to figure out how to explain my feelings to him without sounding like I'm not committed to the relationship. I would like a future with him, but financially, I can't commit like that. And also - does the fact that I'm even thinking about all this mean that I'm not ready to marry him?
And also - does the fact that I'm even thinking about all this mean that I'm not ready to marry him?
I think it means that you're smart and you're seeing things super clearly for what they are.
If he would have an attack of temper, or become offended, or tell you you're just not committed enough to the relationship, at the idea that you don't want to bail out all his past and current mistakes so that he can indulge himself with not working for other people or having a work schedule like 99.99 percent of humanity ... I don't think *anyone* halfway sane would be "ready" to marry someone like that.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:30 PM on January 31, 2011 [13 favorites]
I think it means that you're smart and you're seeing things super clearly for what they are.
If he would have an attack of temper, or become offended, or tell you you're just not committed enough to the relationship, at the idea that you don't want to bail out all his past and current mistakes so that he can indulge himself with not working for other people or having a work schedule like 99.99 percent of humanity ... I don't think *anyone* halfway sane would be "ready" to marry someone like that.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:30 PM on January 31, 2011 [13 favorites]
I wouldn't worry about sounding uncommitted. You come across as not only committed but supportive, relatively nonjudgmental, and relatively respectful that he can live life how he wants to.
But I would be clear with him and with yourself that respecting his right to live how he wants is not the same as being willing to yoke yourself to someone living their life in that way. You live your financial life a certain way, you've worked very hard to be where you're at, you want things to be an even split, and you need your partner to pull his own weight. (Some people don't! Some people don't mind being sugar daddies or whatever. So just inform him as though it is new information, not something that he should have guessed.) But do be very clear on this point, that to you, a sane and manageable financial life is very important, and you cannot go through with the marriage until you feel confident that the two of you will be able to be good partners in this respect.
posted by salvia at 6:35 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
But I would be clear with him and with yourself that respecting his right to live how he wants is not the same as being willing to yoke yourself to someone living their life in that way. You live your financial life a certain way, you've worked very hard to be where you're at, you want things to be an even split, and you need your partner to pull his own weight. (Some people don't! Some people don't mind being sugar daddies or whatever. So just inform him as though it is new information, not something that he should have guessed.) But do be very clear on this point, that to you, a sane and manageable financial life is very important, and you cannot go through with the marriage until you feel confident that the two of you will be able to be good partners in this respect.
posted by salvia at 6:35 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
does the fact that I'm even thinking about all this mean that I'm not ready to marry him?
I think you are being smart. It's not so much that you're not ready to marry him, but that he isn't good to marry right now.
It's not my job to tell him how to work. Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way.
Please read this several times. If you are considering marriage, his work habits will seriously impact you (financially, emotionally, etc.). And you are afraid to discuss this with him. Above all else, that needs to be sorted.
Someone who cared about you would want to minimize your financial risk and coordinate the wedding appropriately with his financial trouble, not use you as a bailout.
posted by griselda at 6:36 PM on January 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
I think you are being smart. It's not so much that you're not ready to marry him, but that he isn't good to marry right now.
It's not my job to tell him how to work. Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way.
Please read this several times. If you are considering marriage, his work habits will seriously impact you (financially, emotionally, etc.). And you are afraid to discuss this with him. Above all else, that needs to be sorted.
Someone who cared about you would want to minimize your financial risk and coordinate the wedding appropriately with his financial trouble, not use you as a bailout.
posted by griselda at 6:36 PM on January 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
I don't like the sound of any of this. Neither does your gut, and that's who you should listen to. I would present it to him something like "I can't help you out much more than I'm doing already. You have to make an effort to improve your own situation." If he doesn't want to hear that, then he's not ready to be a good partner and you definitely should not marry him. Either way, he doesn't sound like a good investment. If you have any extra money you should be putting it to your own retirement, not funding a dead-weight.
posted by amethysts at 6:36 PM on January 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by amethysts at 6:36 PM on January 31, 2011 [9 favorites]
I don't know if what I'm about to say is an answer to your question, but I think it needs to be said.
It doesn't sound like your fiance compromises very well.
He doesn't cook, so you either have to feed him or pay to eat out. He doesn't want to get a second job/day job because he "can't" work for other people. He also can't find you a freakin' closet to call your own in a whole townhouse.
And on top of that, now he expects you to keep him financially afloat, because he "can't" lose the house?!
That's a lot of "can't". Something's got to give, here. Maybe if he doesn't see what he can do to help himself, you "can't" be there for him?
posted by Sara C. at 6:38 PM on January 31, 2011 [53 favorites]
It doesn't sound like your fiance compromises very well.
He doesn't cook, so you either have to feed him or pay to eat out. He doesn't want to get a second job/day job because he "can't" work for other people. He also can't find you a freakin' closet to call your own in a whole townhouse.
And on top of that, now he expects you to keep him financially afloat, because he "can't" lose the house?!
That's a lot of "can't". Something's got to give, here. Maybe if he doesn't see what he can do to help himself, you "can't" be there for him?
posted by Sara C. at 6:38 PM on January 31, 2011 [53 favorites]
And also - does the fact that I'm even thinking about all this mean that I'm not ready to marry him?
YES. And rightfully so! The fact that he would include his need for your money in his apparently unexpected proposal also sounds to me like he's looking for rescue, not marriage. Why would he want to damage your credit that way? Why would he want to begin your lives together in debt? And you're right - if you can work menial jobs, why can't he? I'm sure he has many wonderful qualities or you wouldn't be with him. You don't sound naive. He sounds like he's so concerned with his own survival, however, that he's not thinking about your needs anymore. I wonder how he would react if you told him you wanted to hold off marrying him until he got his finances in order on his own? Or did he think you'd be so overjoyed by the proposal that you'd agree to anything?
posted by katillathehun at 6:40 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
YES. And rightfully so! The fact that he would include his need for your money in his apparently unexpected proposal also sounds to me like he's looking for rescue, not marriage. Why would he want to damage your credit that way? Why would he want to begin your lives together in debt? And you're right - if you can work menial jobs, why can't he? I'm sure he has many wonderful qualities or you wouldn't be with him. You don't sound naive. He sounds like he's so concerned with his own survival, however, that he's not thinking about your needs anymore. I wonder how he would react if you told him you wanted to hold off marrying him until he got his finances in order on his own? Or did he think you'd be so overjoyed by the proposal that you'd agree to anything?
posted by katillathehun at 6:40 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ok. Here is my longer (and most likely jaded) answer. My abusive ex husband used to rely on anger and condemnations that I was not commited to our relationship to extract money from me. Both strategies worked and I am much poorer becuase of it.
He would not work hard and screw around all day...generally not trying to make his financial lot better. I was much more like you and always did what I needed to get by. But I hated for him to think that I was not commited to the relationship and caved almost every time he accused me of that. I regret that now because I know what was in my heart (I was commited) and he manipulated me to his own selfish and greedy ends.
Don't be me. If he can't understand why you wouldn't want to financially entangle yourself in a bankruptcy situation, his motivations are not pure.
posted by murrey at 6:41 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
He would not work hard and screw around all day...generally not trying to make his financial lot better. I was much more like you and always did what I needed to get by. But I hated for him to think that I was not commited to the relationship and caved almost every time he accused me of that. I regret that now because I know what was in my heart (I was commited) and he manipulated me to his own selfish and greedy ends.
Don't be me. If he can't understand why you wouldn't want to financially entangle yourself in a bankruptcy situation, his motivations are not pure.
posted by murrey at 6:41 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
This question gives me the chills. The young-rope-rider just laid it out for you and you're already noted all the red flags yourself. I would take your extra money and get your own apt with your own closet and date him IF he is willing to get his own act together. Please don't marry him!!
posted by bquarters at 6:43 PM on January 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by bquarters at 6:43 PM on January 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
Let's see.
He:
1) Doesn't cook.
2) Has you pay for almost everything.
3) Has bad finances and seems unwilling to work his way out of them.
4) Thinks he's too good to work for some else.
5) Has a temper and can't stand even constructive criticism from his FIANCEE.
6) Is shaky enough in relationships to have you concerned that he'll leave your for a better sugar mama.
7) Does not AT ALL come across as the sort of person who would be grateful (or even thankful) for all that you are doing.
8) Is almost certainly unwilling to "pay you back" for your financial help by doing chores (cooking, cleaning, running errands) to balance things out. (When my wife was working I was a stay at home dad (i.e. grad student with newborn). I shore as hell did all of the errands running and had dinner cooking when she came home. )
Um, I don't say this often, but DTMFA
posted by oddman at 6:47 PM on January 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
He:
1) Doesn't cook.
2) Has you pay for almost everything.
3) Has bad finances and seems unwilling to work his way out of them.
4) Thinks he's too good to work for some else.
5) Has a temper and can't stand even constructive criticism from his FIANCEE.
6) Is shaky enough in relationships to have you concerned that he'll leave your for a better sugar mama.
7) Does not AT ALL come across as the sort of person who would be grateful (or even thankful) for all that you are doing.
8) Is almost certainly unwilling to "pay you back" for your financial help by doing chores (cooking, cleaning, running errands) to balance things out. (When my wife was working I was a stay at home dad (i.e. grad student with newborn). I shore as hell did all of the errands running and had dinner cooking when she came home. )
Um, I don't say this often, but DTMFA
posted by oddman at 6:47 PM on January 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
There is only one way I would stay in this situation.
Sit down and write out two things.
1. A budget. A budget encompassing all of the household expenses (possibly leaving his debt out of it for the moment). Divide by two. Your number is the MAX amount you can help him out with at this point.
2. A household plan, to include both domestic tasks and the space is allocated. Point out to him the fact that you seem to be doing most of the former, and yet getting basically none of the latter. Re-draw the plan so that you can see what it would mean for you to divide the domestic sphere evenly.
Tell him that if he abides by the new and improved domestic plan (you each do half the housework including cooking, and domestic space is to be shared equally), then you would be willing to abide by the new and improved budget. But no more.
If you draw up the budget and it turns out you're already doing more than your share, well then you really have your answer, don't you?
posted by Sara C. at 6:48 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sit down and write out two things.
1. A budget. A budget encompassing all of the household expenses (possibly leaving his debt out of it for the moment). Divide by two. Your number is the MAX amount you can help him out with at this point.
2. A household plan, to include both domestic tasks and the space is allocated. Point out to him the fact that you seem to be doing most of the former, and yet getting basically none of the latter. Re-draw the plan so that you can see what it would mean for you to divide the domestic sphere evenly.
Tell him that if he abides by the new and improved domestic plan (you each do half the housework including cooking, and domestic space is to be shared equally), then you would be willing to abide by the new and improved budget. But no more.
If you draw up the budget and it turns out you're already doing more than your share, well then you really have your answer, don't you?
posted by Sara C. at 6:48 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I wonder if you firmly said that you don't intend to combine finances either now or (as much as possible) after the marriage, if he would start talking about reconsidering the marriage. I also wonder if you started talking about switching careers to something low-paying, if he would try to prevent you.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:54 PM on January 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by Ashley801 at 6:54 PM on January 31, 2011 [12 favorites]
What's the hold this guy has on you? Smooth talker? Flattery? Convinces you he's really sensitive and loving and plays the pity-me card effectively? Extremely handsome? Good in bed? You don't often meet guys? "Misunderstood genius?"
I can't fathom what he could possibly be holding over you in this ridiculously unfair trade.
In the interest of giving you a dose of tough love, this situation makes you look like a desperate sucker with low self-esteem. I'm sorry. I thought I'd just lay it out there flat.
Nothing, no marriage, no man, is worth the loss of your self-trust and having to deny your own instincts and feelings.
posted by Nixy at 6:56 PM on January 31, 2011 [20 favorites]
I can't fathom what he could possibly be holding over you in this ridiculously unfair trade.
In the interest of giving you a dose of tough love, this situation makes you look like a desperate sucker with low self-esteem. I'm sorry. I thought I'd just lay it out there flat.
Nothing, no marriage, no man, is worth the loss of your self-trust and having to deny your own instincts and feelings.
posted by Nixy at 6:56 PM on January 31, 2011 [20 favorites]
do not pass go.
seriously, it would be one thing if he was doing everything he could to find work, including sucking it up and getting a full time job. but he's not. and that's a problem because you two share a household, and after you get married, will be sharing a life. look, i am self-employed too and business also isn't the greatest for me right now so i am not unsympathetic, but i don't limit my work search to only freelance opportunities.
add to that the many other red flags including:
• he's also mentioned that he'll need a lot of financial help from me as he goes through the bankruptcy
you are not married yet. his bankruptcy is his business and you should not have to help or feel pressured to help him financially. do not mix up your finances with his as long as he is in bankruptcy (which could be anywhere from 3-5 years depending on his plan). he needs to take responsibility for his own financial decisions.
• It's not my job to tell him how to work. Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way.
it's not your job, but you should be able to talk to him about his work and how he handles it will affect your relationship whether you are married or not. also, the temper thing? not a good sign. seriously not a good sign.
• I have been buying all the groceries for both of us, and paying for everything whenever we go out…I also do all the cooking because he doesn't cook, and If I don't cook our option is to go out - and well, I'm paying if we go out - so I try not to suggest that.
so he's not contributing financially, nor is he contributing to anything else it seems like.
***
seriously, whether there are other reasons or not for his wanting to marry you, this guy sounds like he is using you to bail him out of his financial situation. he's taking your money but doesn't feel compelled to give you anything in return, whether that be looking for work to help pull his weight, cooking for you (the breadwinner), or even finding you a closet for your clothes.
why, oh why do you want to tie yourself to this man and this situation? you need to talk to him about your concerns but if you can't talk to him because you are afraid he will take it the wrong, then you definitely shouldn't be marrying this man.
posted by violetk at 7:07 PM on January 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
seriously, it would be one thing if he was doing everything he could to find work, including sucking it up and getting a full time job. but he's not. and that's a problem because you two share a household, and after you get married, will be sharing a life. look, i am self-employed too and business also isn't the greatest for me right now so i am not unsympathetic, but i don't limit my work search to only freelance opportunities.
add to that the many other red flags including:
• he's also mentioned that he'll need a lot of financial help from me as he goes through the bankruptcy
you are not married yet. his bankruptcy is his business and you should not have to help or feel pressured to help him financially. do not mix up your finances with his as long as he is in bankruptcy (which could be anywhere from 3-5 years depending on his plan). he needs to take responsibility for his own financial decisions.
• It's not my job to tell him how to work. Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way.
it's not your job, but you should be able to talk to him about his work and how he handles it will affect your relationship whether you are married or not. also, the temper thing? not a good sign. seriously not a good sign.
• I have been buying all the groceries for both of us, and paying for everything whenever we go out…I also do all the cooking because he doesn't cook, and If I don't cook our option is to go out - and well, I'm paying if we go out - so I try not to suggest that.
so he's not contributing financially, nor is he contributing to anything else it seems like.
***
seriously, whether there are other reasons or not for his wanting to marry you, this guy sounds like he is using you to bail him out of his financial situation. he's taking your money but doesn't feel compelled to give you anything in return, whether that be looking for work to help pull his weight, cooking for you (the breadwinner), or even finding you a closet for your clothes.
why, oh why do you want to tie yourself to this man and this situation? you need to talk to him about your concerns but if you can't talk to him because you are afraid he will take it the wrong, then you definitely shouldn't be marrying this man.
posted by violetk at 7:07 PM on January 31, 2011 [7 favorites]
You can love someone and still pay attention and respond to the red flags you're getting. The thing is, he has to make a choice, and you don't know if he loves you or himself enough to make the right one. That choice is to manage the financial part of recovering from his bankruptcy, by himself. People do it all. the. time.
There's no way to not 'sound' committed, because the fact is right now, you might be 100% committed to loving him, but you are not 100% committed to marrying him. And you can't be. Because people have to take responsibility to care of themselves, even in partnerships, and you're getting the sense that you'll be taking care of you, and taking care of him as well. And you want a partner, not a dependent masquerading as a partner, so that won't work.
I think really, really difficult conversations like this are helpful, even important, in relationships. Because you get to see how your partner responds to conflict. Tell him that you love him, but that if the situation was reversed, and you were in debt, you realize that would not expect him to combine his finances to yours. You would expect that he would expect you to improve your financial situation on your own, and that he would provide all the love and cheerleading needed - and that's all.
The question to ultimately ask him is: what would he do to get himself out his financial hole if you didn't exist, and your money wasn't available? He needs to be able to answer this question, and you need to hear it, and believe that it's a feasible plan. Because you and your money should not be his plan A. You are not a 'get out of jail free' meal ticket. You are a partner. Both of you should be making plans that raise you both up, not plans that bring you both down and make you both more vulnerable. Right now, that might be delaying getting married.
You said you were considering a long engagement. So have one. There is no rush to get married. And it's harder to end a marriage than delay getting into one.
Sorry you're going through this - the worst case scenario is that this turns into a 'If you loved me, you'd help me" guilt trip. And if that happens, weep if you must, but leave, because if he loved you, he wouldn't press the point as soon as it became clear that you weren't comfortable with it.
posted by anitanita at 7:13 PM on January 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
There's no way to not 'sound' committed, because the fact is right now, you might be 100% committed to loving him, but you are not 100% committed to marrying him. And you can't be. Because people have to take responsibility to care of themselves, even in partnerships, and you're getting the sense that you'll be taking care of you, and taking care of him as well. And you want a partner, not a dependent masquerading as a partner, so that won't work.
I think really, really difficult conversations like this are helpful, even important, in relationships. Because you get to see how your partner responds to conflict. Tell him that you love him, but that if the situation was reversed, and you were in debt, you realize that would not expect him to combine his finances to yours. You would expect that he would expect you to improve your financial situation on your own, and that he would provide all the love and cheerleading needed - and that's all.
The question to ultimately ask him is: what would he do to get himself out his financial hole if you didn't exist, and your money wasn't available? He needs to be able to answer this question, and you need to hear it, and believe that it's a feasible plan. Because you and your money should not be his plan A. You are not a 'get out of jail free' meal ticket. You are a partner. Both of you should be making plans that raise you both up, not plans that bring you both down and make you both more vulnerable. Right now, that might be delaying getting married.
You said you were considering a long engagement. So have one. There is no rush to get married. And it's harder to end a marriage than delay getting into one.
Sorry you're going through this - the worst case scenario is that this turns into a 'If you loved me, you'd help me" guilt trip. And if that happens, weep if you must, but leave, because if he loved you, he wouldn't press the point as soon as it became clear that you weren't comfortable with it.
posted by anitanita at 7:13 PM on January 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
I would present it to him something like "I can't help you out much more than I'm doing already. You have to make an effort to improve your own situation." If he doesn't want to hear that, then he's not ready to be a good partner and you definitely should not marry him. Either way, he doesn't sound like a good investment.
There are so many red flags with your guy that it's like we're in a freakin' parade. Do not let him convince you to combine finances. Do not marry him until he is in a stable financial state and can take care of himself without you.
And FWIW $500 for a shared bed to sleep in, a bathroom to use (and clean), and a kitchen to cook in (and clean, and stock) is kind of a rip off. Don't let him guilt you about it.
posted by TooFewShoes at 7:15 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
There are so many red flags with your guy that it's like we're in a freakin' parade. Do not let him convince you to combine finances. Do not marry him until he is in a stable financial state and can take care of himself without you.
And FWIW $500 for a shared bed to sleep in, a bathroom to use (and clean), and a kitchen to cook in (and clean, and stock) is kind of a rip off. Don't let him guilt you about it.
posted by TooFewShoes at 7:15 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
He says he can't get a real job because he just can't work for other people, and having a work schedule would just drive him crazy.
You're too smart for this crap.
You've noted quite a few bright flashing red flags about this guy (his relationship habits, his work habits, his financial situation, his temper). You also recognize that you've made decisions in this relationship that you weren't comfortable with. Don't make another one of those. Even if all of the things you've pointed out in this post can be addressed and resolved, that's going to take a ton of time. If he's not willing to spend that time, if instead he's pressuring you to make decisions that are financially stupid for you and beneficial to him, then he's using you.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:32 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
You're too smart for this crap.
You've noted quite a few bright flashing red flags about this guy (his relationship habits, his work habits, his financial situation, his temper). You also recognize that you've made decisions in this relationship that you weren't comfortable with. Don't make another one of those. Even if all of the things you've pointed out in this post can be addressed and resolved, that's going to take a ton of time. If he's not willing to spend that time, if instead he's pressuring you to make decisions that are financially stupid for you and beneficial to him, then he's using you.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:32 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
I would run, not walk, away from this guy. All of these red flags are just the beginning. When people get married they don't tend to improve, in fact, when they are dating/engaged they are supposedly on their best behaviour (so you will want to marry them of course) and if this is the best he can do...um...I shudder to think what your life will be like five years from now. Your common sense is telling you something so LISTEN!
posted by MsKim at 7:33 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by MsKim at 7:33 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
You have a great new job?
Move out now and find your own place. This boy is not yet a man or ready to be a husband.
Good luck on your journey. You are prime to meet a super great life partner now that you have some valuable experience to reference. Honor yourself, put yourself first. You can do the right thing here. There's no shame in starting over again and doing it right!
posted by jbenben at 7:33 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
Move out now and find your own place. This boy is not yet a man or ready to be a husband.
Good luck on your journey. You are prime to meet a super great life partner now that you have some valuable experience to reference. Honor yourself, put yourself first. You can do the right thing here. There's no shame in starting over again and doing it right!
posted by jbenben at 7:33 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
TooFewShoes: "And FWIW $500 for a shared bed to sleep in, a bathroom to use (and clean), and a kitchen to cook in (and clean, and stock) is kind of a rip off. Don't let him guilt you about it"
Too right! Oh honey, run away...run away now. Even if unicorns sing and rainbows appear when you make the beast with two backs, even if his beauty is such that angels weep with jealousy, even if his mind makes Hume look shallow...he is a user. A user with a temper. A user with a temper who can't cook.
He may be a lovely man, and he may be charming to spend time with, but you need to get a living space where he is not. Find a roommate if you can't afford a space on your own...you owe it to yourself to see what he does if you are not supporting him with both money and labor.
posted by dejah420 at 7:33 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
Too right! Oh honey, run away...run away now. Even if unicorns sing and rainbows appear when you make the beast with two backs, even if his beauty is such that angels weep with jealousy, even if his mind makes Hume look shallow...he is a user. A user with a temper. A user with a temper who can't cook.
He may be a lovely man, and he may be charming to spend time with, but you need to get a living space where he is not. Find a roommate if you can't afford a space on your own...you owe it to yourself to see what he does if you are not supporting him with both money and labor.
posted by dejah420 at 7:33 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
From another anonymous question asker:
I am the poster in this question. I have continued to hang in there and avoid foreclosure to date. But foreclosure is still on the table, and in the absolute worst case scenario, so is bankruptcy.posted by mathowie at 7:34 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
It is for that very reason that I won't discuss marriage with my much-loved partner. I am close to ready to marry him, but I don't want to build any momentum in that direction until my financial disaster is resolved. Those asking you why he isn't worried about your credit are right. I worry about damaging my partner's credit more than he does. He keeps trying to loan me more money, and I keep turning it down.
No, no, no. Do not step into this financial and emotional sinkhole. Previous fiancee sounds like she was very lucky to escape before she signed any papers. Please show yourself the respect of not buying into this bottomless pit. This is not a viable prospect for a workable LTR. You say he has a temper so you are reluctant to tell him what to do. Oh, no, dear lady, please, please back away from him.
You survived a divorce, started anew and worked your butt off to right your ship and now your prospects look pretty good. So, even before you've signed on the dotted line, he wants an immediate commitment from you to take on his problems, mingle your finances. And yes, he will jump ship if he finds someone on Facebook or elsewhere who can improve his financial status. In such a scenario you could get stuck with his old debts while he walks away to a more luxurious life. This is so one-sided and potentially disastrous that I am at a loss for words to explain how wrong it is. (I'm fighting not to go in an obvious direction, because if I did I would have to say he sounds like a pimp.)
A little cautionary tale: A dear friend has a non-working spouse who won't disclose the student loan situation, won't get a job, won't give up the credit card, won't stop spending, won't cook or even clean up after the dogs and, yeah, gets angry, sometimes violently angry, if my friend mentions any of this. This is year ten of that spiral and there aren't enough promotions and hard work one person can accomplish to make that partnership work. My friend didn't insist on a pre-nup and now regrets it bitterly. Now, there are kids and it'll be another ten years before my friend can afford a divorce.
I know your situation doesn't have to end up this bad but nothing you say makes me think it won't. I am sorry to be so strong in this reply but I am really alarmed when responsible, loving people are used this way by irresponsible people. The saddest part is that you don't get the love you think is his part of the bargain. You don't get much of anything but the disaster.
posted by Anitanola at 7:57 PM on January 31, 2011 [15 favorites]
You survived a divorce, started anew and worked your butt off to right your ship and now your prospects look pretty good. So, even before you've signed on the dotted line, he wants an immediate commitment from you to take on his problems, mingle your finances. And yes, he will jump ship if he finds someone on Facebook or elsewhere who can improve his financial status. In such a scenario you could get stuck with his old debts while he walks away to a more luxurious life. This is so one-sided and potentially disastrous that I am at a loss for words to explain how wrong it is. (I'm fighting not to go in an obvious direction, because if I did I would have to say he sounds like a pimp.)
A little cautionary tale: A dear friend has a non-working spouse who won't disclose the student loan situation, won't get a job, won't give up the credit card, won't stop spending, won't cook or even clean up after the dogs and, yeah, gets angry, sometimes violently angry, if my friend mentions any of this. This is year ten of that spiral and there aren't enough promotions and hard work one person can accomplish to make that partnership work. My friend didn't insist on a pre-nup and now regrets it bitterly. Now, there are kids and it'll be another ten years before my friend can afford a divorce.
I know your situation doesn't have to end up this bad but nothing you say makes me think it won't. I am sorry to be so strong in this reply but I am really alarmed when responsible, loving people are used this way by irresponsible people. The saddest part is that you don't get the love you think is his part of the bargain. You don't get much of anything but the disaster.
posted by Anitanola at 7:57 PM on January 31, 2011 [15 favorites]
I'm hearing three things that you didn't feel it was the right time for (moving in together, then planning marriage, now combining your finances) and all the pressure and motivation coming from him.
Combined finances mean combined goals. If he will hear out your perfectly reasonable reservations like an adult and agree to goals that will point your finances in a direction you are comfortable going along with, then no, this relationship is not ready to proceed on to marriage. It sounds like right now he is quite ready to let this status quo stand - business in the tank, living beyond his means, engaged in active avoidance of dealing with it. He's in bankruptcy, on Facebook all day, won't cook... Financially, what is he bringing to the table besides a sucking hole of debt? A townhome with a $1500 mortgage? Sure it depends on your market and all but frankly, in most markets that is not an "asset" that's particularly hard to come by these days. Do you know what his principle is, the taxable and approximate market value of the property, his interest rate and terms?
You're right to be apprehensive and you shouldn't go forward with marriage plans without 1) full knowledge of his actual financial condition 2) a commitment to a shared financial plan that you are comfortable with and 3) evidence that he is capable of actually working towards that commitment. I hate to be the jerk to say it but if I were you I'd be starting myself an emergency fund. To keep my, ah, options open.
posted by nanojath at 8:06 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
Combined finances mean combined goals. If he will hear out your perfectly reasonable reservations like an adult and agree to goals that will point your finances in a direction you are comfortable going along with, then no, this relationship is not ready to proceed on to marriage. It sounds like right now he is quite ready to let this status quo stand - business in the tank, living beyond his means, engaged in active avoidance of dealing with it. He's in bankruptcy, on Facebook all day, won't cook... Financially, what is he bringing to the table besides a sucking hole of debt? A townhome with a $1500 mortgage? Sure it depends on your market and all but frankly, in most markets that is not an "asset" that's particularly hard to come by these days. Do you know what his principle is, the taxable and approximate market value of the property, his interest rate and terms?
You're right to be apprehensive and you shouldn't go forward with marriage plans without 1) full knowledge of his actual financial condition 2) a commitment to a shared financial plan that you are comfortable with and 3) evidence that he is capable of actually working towards that commitment. I hate to be the jerk to say it but if I were you I'd be starting myself an emergency fund. To keep my, ah, options open.
posted by nanojath at 8:06 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
I dated someone very, very similar to this a few years ago. Please take this slowly, and do not merge your financials for a while. See what his reaction is to your decision to keep those separate for now.
I suspect that he will guilt trip the hell out of you, tell you that if the situations were reversed he'd be there for you and help you out, that you are not acting like you are part of a couple, that you're not being a partner with him, etc. Hold your ground. You do not want to be looking back on this a couple of years from now kicking yourself for being gullible.
posted by 8dot3 at 8:11 PM on January 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
I suspect that he will guilt trip the hell out of you, tell you that if the situations were reversed he'd be there for you and help you out, that you are not acting like you are part of a couple, that you're not being a partner with him, etc. Hold your ground. You do not want to be looking back on this a couple of years from now kicking yourself for being gullible.
posted by 8dot3 at 8:11 PM on January 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
Take it from someone who could have ended up like Anitanola's friend: don't marry a financial suck. He is looking for a sugar momma to take care of him, and all he seems to provide you is sex and a house. Don't marry someone who has a 'tude about working (and a scary temper) and all he does is Facebook all day if you are not okay with being his forever sugar momma, either.
At the VERY LEAST, have a really long engagement to see if he ever shapes up (in my case, nope), and do NOT let him have access to your finances. He will suck you dry and rack up debt.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:14 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
At the VERY LEAST, have a really long engagement to see if he ever shapes up (in my case, nope), and do NOT let him have access to your finances. He will suck you dry and rack up debt.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:14 PM on January 31, 2011 [3 favorites]
Just tell him that you can't stand working for the man any longer, and plan to pursue your true dream of becoming an actress, so can he please get a job & do all the housework & pay all the bills so you can practice your acting.
As a sweetener, you could make it so that you take it in turns - one year he pursues his thing, next year you do yours, and so on. His reaction to this proposal should tell you everything you need to know.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:28 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
As a sweetener, you could make it so that you take it in turns - one year he pursues his thing, next year you do yours, and so on. His reaction to this proposal should tell you everything you need to know.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:28 PM on January 31, 2011 [5 favorites]
Um, DTMFA.
The big problem isn't the financial stuff. The big problem is that he's a douche who won't do jack to chip in (e.g., won't cook, won't get a job). That and you don't trust him, you're afraid to communicate with him, and he has quite the bloody temper.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:01 PM on January 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
The big problem isn't the financial stuff. The big problem is that he's a douche who won't do jack to chip in (e.g., won't cook, won't get a job). That and you don't trust him, you're afraid to communicate with him, and he has quite the bloody temper.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:01 PM on January 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
"He keeps trying to loan me more money, and I keep turning it down."
Is he trying to "store" this money with you in anticipation of being able to ask for it back after he has filed? That's shady (and possibly illegal) if he doesn't disclose it in his filing. You are very wise to keep turning it down.
posted by soelo at 9:13 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is he trying to "store" this money with you in anticipation of being able to ask for it back after he has filed? That's shady (and possibly illegal) if he doesn't disclose it in his filing. You are very wise to keep turning it down.
posted by soelo at 9:13 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
DTMFA! He is your rebound and sounds like you need to move out to clear your mind and make sure that you're in the relationship for the right reasons, and that he is too (i.e. not using you for a personal chef/money helper).
posted by 2003girl at 9:14 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by 2003girl at 9:14 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it's just one guy who gets around a lot, or if this is a really common stereotype, but my best friend just dumped a guy exactly like this. It took her 8 years and a bankruptcy filing (he pressured her into cosigning a loan for his "business"), but she's never been happier.
He found another live-in sugar-momma within a month.
posted by CathyG at 9:17 PM on January 31, 2011 [10 favorites]
He found another live-in sugar-momma within a month.
posted by CathyG at 9:17 PM on January 31, 2011 [10 favorites]
Please, please, please do not marry him. I made the mistake of marrying a person just like this. Two and a half years after leaving him, I've spent the last years getting bill collectors off my back. There are so many red flags here. Don't combine finances, don't support him.
posted by Zophi at 9:46 PM on January 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Zophi at 9:46 PM on January 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is he trying to "store" this money with you in anticipation of being able to ask for it back after he has filed? That's shady (and possibly illegal) if he doesn't disclose it in his filing. You are very wise to keep turning it down.
soelo, that was a comment from another anonymous asker, not the OP.
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:08 AM on February 1, 2011
soelo, that was a comment from another anonymous asker, not the OP.
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:08 AM on February 1, 2011
Many good relationships good bad over money.
You and your partner need to have many common interests, like music and movies. But one that often gets over looked is financial outlook.
He is financially irresponsible, you are not. This is going to be a long term continuing problem. And if you ever hit any financial trouble, this divide between the two of you may cause you a lot of pain.
Be careful. You are setting yourself up to be hurt.
posted by Flood at 4:26 AM on February 1, 2011
You and your partner need to have many common interests, like music and movies. But one that often gets over looked is financial outlook.
He is financially irresponsible, you are not. This is going to be a long term continuing problem. And if you ever hit any financial trouble, this divide between the two of you may cause you a lot of pain.
Be careful. You are setting yourself up to be hurt.
posted by Flood at 4:26 AM on February 1, 2011
There are some very reasonable-sounding answers upthread that mean very well, and boil down to what I consider the right advice (don't do it!), yet lay out some arguments of equal bills, equal space, etc, that (in my opinion) don't really apply. The key is not equality, but balance.
I'm married to a lovely man who runs his own business from our home. It is a long-standing thing that he's been doing since we was 25 (we're now 35) and supported himself through 6 years on his own. When I met him, he'd recently lost his roommate-girlfriend, and struggling to keep his head above water paying full rent - not exactly the dream-date on paper, yet I had confidence in him because he was more actively involved in managing his personal finance than guys I've known making 3x as much. When we moved in together, I paid more than half the rent, and he used more than half the space. That's the way it has to be when you're with someone running a struggling business from their home. You want it not to be that way? Okay, let's get you equal space by... umm... getting a 3-bedroom apartment instead of a 2-bedroom so you can have your own office, too? Okay, then, how about if the business is like the third roommate and pays rent on the second bedroom? Well, great, but that means he'll be taking out more business loans because the money just isn't there. The point of being married to someone is making decisions that are not in your best interest. There is no logical reason for me to support my husband and pay for 100% of the mortgage and household expenses, except that I love him and want him to be happy.
The thing is, your description of your fiance is not inspiring confidence from us, the readers. Running a home business does not give him license to act like a jerk - he still has to be responsible for his own food and clothing and treat people decently. What makes my cash-imbalanced marriage work is that my husband is actively thankful for what I'm doing and goes out of his way to pay me back - with clean dishes, home-cooked meals, including my errands when he's out handling business tasks, etc. Also, as his major investor, I'm the first person he comes to when he's making business decisions, not for my help exactly but to talk things over, on the correct assumption that I'm interested and that I would feel left out and/or used if he weren't willing to share. He's doing things for me to make sure we both feel that there's balance.
So how do you feel about your fiance's business? Will his business model ever work? If he were to file bankruptcy and that business is done, what's he going to do instead - restart basically the same home business as the one that just failed? If you were to suddenly need him (medical thing, pregnancy, job loss) would he drop everything to help you, give you his time? Are there any scenarios in which he'd step up and earn cash however it had to be earned? He really needs to acknowledge that being married to a home-business-guy is not easy or appealing, and start doing what he can to bring the household into balance. The key is not equality, but balance: you won't be paying equal rent, you won't be using equal space, you won't be spending equal time at work, you won't be spending equal effort on household chores. But he'd better be doing more of a couple of those unpleasant things than you do, else it will be out of balance.
In my opinion, the linchpin of your guy's business model - whether he knows it or not - is a sugar-mama to cover the bills. This absolutely should not be you. Don't do it. I know it's hard, but take your paycheck and go find yourself a nice little apartment.
posted by aimedwander at 7:07 AM on February 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm married to a lovely man who runs his own business from our home. It is a long-standing thing that he's been doing since we was 25 (we're now 35) and supported himself through 6 years on his own. When I met him, he'd recently lost his roommate-girlfriend, and struggling to keep his head above water paying full rent - not exactly the dream-date on paper, yet I had confidence in him because he was more actively involved in managing his personal finance than guys I've known making 3x as much. When we moved in together, I paid more than half the rent, and he used more than half the space. That's the way it has to be when you're with someone running a struggling business from their home. You want it not to be that way? Okay, let's get you equal space by... umm... getting a 3-bedroom apartment instead of a 2-bedroom so you can have your own office, too? Okay, then, how about if the business is like the third roommate and pays rent on the second bedroom? Well, great, but that means he'll be taking out more business loans because the money just isn't there. The point of being married to someone is making decisions that are not in your best interest. There is no logical reason for me to support my husband and pay for 100% of the mortgage and household expenses, except that I love him and want him to be happy.
The thing is, your description of your fiance is not inspiring confidence from us, the readers. Running a home business does not give him license to act like a jerk - he still has to be responsible for his own food and clothing and treat people decently. What makes my cash-imbalanced marriage work is that my husband is actively thankful for what I'm doing and goes out of his way to pay me back - with clean dishes, home-cooked meals, including my errands when he's out handling business tasks, etc. Also, as his major investor, I'm the first person he comes to when he's making business decisions, not for my help exactly but to talk things over, on the correct assumption that I'm interested and that I would feel left out and/or used if he weren't willing to share. He's doing things for me to make sure we both feel that there's balance.
So how do you feel about your fiance's business? Will his business model ever work? If he were to file bankruptcy and that business is done, what's he going to do instead - restart basically the same home business as the one that just failed? If you were to suddenly need him (medical thing, pregnancy, job loss) would he drop everything to help you, give you his time? Are there any scenarios in which he'd step up and earn cash however it had to be earned? He really needs to acknowledge that being married to a home-business-guy is not easy or appealing, and start doing what he can to bring the household into balance. The key is not equality, but balance: you won't be paying equal rent, you won't be using equal space, you won't be spending equal time at work, you won't be spending equal effort on household chores. But he'd better be doing more of a couple of those unpleasant things than you do, else it will be out of balance.
In my opinion, the linchpin of your guy's business model - whether he knows it or not - is a sugar-mama to cover the bills. This absolutely should not be you. Don't do it. I know it's hard, but take your paycheck and go find yourself a nice little apartment.
posted by aimedwander at 7:07 AM on February 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
(and if he gets his act together and you decide to keep the relationship, be very very sure of the legalities around bankruptcy, cosigning on things, joint bank accounts, separate bank accounts that may be held liable anyway, etc. Find a lawyer, and pay them to be very certain of these things, before any kind of wedding!!)
posted by aimedwander at 7:08 AM on February 1, 2011
posted by aimedwander at 7:08 AM on February 1, 2011
Besides, he has quite a temper & would probably take it the wrong way.
There are so, so many things wrong with this situation that I would be copying and pasting pretty much your entire question to mention all of them. This right here - his temper, you being afraid to bring up financial/career matters - is SUCH A BAD SIGN that it should be enough to give you pause.
People with bad tempers win because they get their way. You are too afraid to have a discussion with him because of how he may react. This could continue into literally any facet of your married life together - not only finances, but childcare, friends, hobbies, etc. You cannot be scared to talk about this with your husband. Please reconsider being with this man.
posted by amicamentis at 7:58 AM on February 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
There are so, so many things wrong with this situation that I would be copying and pasting pretty much your entire question to mention all of them. This right here - his temper, you being afraid to bring up financial/career matters - is SUCH A BAD SIGN that it should be enough to give you pause.
People with bad tempers win because they get their way. You are too afraid to have a discussion with him because of how he may react. This could continue into literally any facet of your married life together - not only finances, but childcare, friends, hobbies, etc. You cannot be scared to talk about this with your husband. Please reconsider being with this man.
posted by amicamentis at 7:58 AM on February 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
futureisunwritten, yep. The anonymous answerer also mentioned a possible future bankruptcy. I was trying to add that the OP needs to be sure to avoid letting him hide assets with her, but that wasn't very clear in my original answer.
posted by soelo at 8:30 AM on February 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by soelo at 8:30 AM on February 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
The anonymous answerer also mentioned a possible future bankruptcy. I was trying to add that the OP needs to be sure to avoid letting him hide assets with her, but that wasn't very clear in my original answer.
soelo, the anonymous asker was referring to her own possible bankruptcy and her partner wanting to help her out financially, not the other way around.
posted by violetk at 8:41 AM on February 1, 2011
soelo, the anonymous asker was referring to her own possible bankruptcy and her partner wanting to help her out financially, not the other way around.
posted by violetk at 8:41 AM on February 1, 2011
…and on the third read, soelo, okay, now i know what you are referring to…
posted by violetk at 8:43 AM on February 1, 2011
posted by violetk at 8:43 AM on February 1, 2011
You are not being unreasonable. This bloke needs a short sharp kick to boot him into reality. As I see it he contributes nothing other than a place to live, which he can't afford but wants to keep because he'll have a nice little asset. Even if you've paid for everything else during the relationship. Is your name going to get on the deed of that property, considering how much financial input you've had into maintaining its owner?
He says he can't get a real job because he just can't work for other people, and having a work schedule would just drive him crazy.
Many of us were driven crazy by the work schedule in our first few months of working, but put up with it and got over it because that's what you do when you're a grown-up.
Saying he "can't" work for other people is a HUGE red flag; it usually means someone who just doesn't want to be told what to do by someone else, because they think they're better than everybody else. Is he also one of those people who doesn't turn up on time to things because "time has no meaning and he just can't be expected to look at the clock all the time"?
I feel that if I was willing to work menial not-fun jobs, why can't he?
He doesn't want to make the effort and put himself through the minor discomforts and inconveniences of having to work for others, which well over half the population puts themselves through every single working day. What makes him so special that he gets to not do it because he doesn't want to? Is he too good to pay his own way through life?
Please, please don't make things worse for yourself by agreeing to combine finances. He should be concerned about what this will do for your financial health and credit rating, and the fact that he isn't is another huge red flag. If he really cares about you he should be doing every single thing he can to make sure you are not disadvantaged by your relationship with him. If refusing to combine finances makes him argue that *you* are not fully committed to your relationship with him, think about the level of commitment he's showing to you by expecting you to stuff up your credit rating, do all the cooking, and pay all the bills, while he faffs around on Facebook.
He needs to contribute something to make your life easier since you are effectively supporting him. He can't cook? He can learn. If he isn't willing to do that, to even make the effort to learn how to cook for himself, which is a basic life skill, then that will be a good indicator of his level of commitment to your equal life together. And the fact that he is not thinking to do this off his own bat is to me the biggest red flag of all.
posted by andraste at 4:03 PM on February 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
He says he can't get a real job because he just can't work for other people, and having a work schedule would just drive him crazy.
Many of us were driven crazy by the work schedule in our first few months of working, but put up with it and got over it because that's what you do when you're a grown-up.
Saying he "can't" work for other people is a HUGE red flag; it usually means someone who just doesn't want to be told what to do by someone else, because they think they're better than everybody else. Is he also one of those people who doesn't turn up on time to things because "time has no meaning and he just can't be expected to look at the clock all the time"?
I feel that if I was willing to work menial not-fun jobs, why can't he?
He doesn't want to make the effort and put himself through the minor discomforts and inconveniences of having to work for others, which well over half the population puts themselves through every single working day. What makes him so special that he gets to not do it because he doesn't want to? Is he too good to pay his own way through life?
Please, please don't make things worse for yourself by agreeing to combine finances. He should be concerned about what this will do for your financial health and credit rating, and the fact that he isn't is another huge red flag. If he really cares about you he should be doing every single thing he can to make sure you are not disadvantaged by your relationship with him. If refusing to combine finances makes him argue that *you* are not fully committed to your relationship with him, think about the level of commitment he's showing to you by expecting you to stuff up your credit rating, do all the cooking, and pay all the bills, while he faffs around on Facebook.
He needs to contribute something to make your life easier since you are effectively supporting him. He can't cook? He can learn. If he isn't willing to do that, to even make the effort to learn how to cook for himself, which is a basic life skill, then that will be a good indicator of his level of commitment to your equal life together. And the fact that he is not thinking to do this off his own bat is to me the biggest red flag of all.
posted by andraste at 4:03 PM on February 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
Another vote for "he's using you for your money, and you need to listen to your gut and DTMFA".
By the way, it looks like *100%* of the responses here are in agreement about his motives and the red flags in this situation. 100%!
posted by whitelily at 9:03 PM on February 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
By the way, it looks like *100%* of the responses here are in agreement about his motives and the red flags in this situation. 100%!
posted by whitelily at 9:03 PM on February 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
how to explain my feelings to him without sounding like I'm not committed to the relationship
This question is not answerable. Because while you know deep inside that your reservations are valid, healthy and absolutely normal (we are all agreeing with you!), there is no way you can tell him this without him getting angry and challenging your commitment. The woman he wants is the woman who will finance his life. If you refuse, he will accuse you of letting him down and not loving him enough.
So. I am telling you this to help you prepare for the guilt you will feel. There is no way to make this a good conversation and have him understand. You will always end up feeling the selfish, bad person.
Abandon impossible goals, set yourself achievable ones. Your goal should not be "free myself from this situation while keeping him happy and our relationship alive". Your goal could be "free myself no matter how difficult it may be and accept that I may lose him and feel shit".
Accept that he will do everything in his power to pressure you. He'll become scary or helpless or hurt, he'll accuse you and threaten to stop loving you. Prepare for these scenarios by picturing yourself saying, "I'm sorry, I love you but you are asking too much of me. I can't take on this financial burden. Repeat like a broken record. "I'm sorry, it's impossible."
Count the ways in which he tries to pressure you, it will give you something to strengthen your backbone.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:58 PM on February 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
This question is not answerable. Because while you know deep inside that your reservations are valid, healthy and absolutely normal (we are all agreeing with you!), there is no way you can tell him this without him getting angry and challenging your commitment. The woman he wants is the woman who will finance his life. If you refuse, he will accuse you of letting him down and not loving him enough.
So. I am telling you this to help you prepare for the guilt you will feel. There is no way to make this a good conversation and have him understand. You will always end up feeling the selfish, bad person.
Abandon impossible goals, set yourself achievable ones. Your goal should not be "free myself from this situation while keeping him happy and our relationship alive". Your goal could be "free myself no matter how difficult it may be and accept that I may lose him and feel shit".
Accept that he will do everything in his power to pressure you. He'll become scary or helpless or hurt, he'll accuse you and threaten to stop loving you. Prepare for these scenarios by picturing yourself saying, "I'm sorry, I love you but you are asking too much of me. I can't take on this financial burden. Repeat like a broken record. "I'm sorry, it's impossible."
Count the ways in which he tries to pressure you, it will give you something to strengthen your backbone.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:58 PM on February 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
He left his last fiancé pretty quickly - when we met. She made good money & I'm sure paid for most things as well.
Have you talked to the last fiancé? I wouldn't be at all surprised she left him, or if he happened to "leave her" (sounds more like he told her to get out of her living space on short notice -- lucky for her, she must not have had much to pack with no space of her own in the house) around the time she quit paying for things or had a drop in her income.
Now he is asking that we combine finances
You don't mention that he's specified any sort of plan for this. It sounds like you'd be providing the income and he'd be providing the expenses. Try phrasing that "asking that I give him even more money" and see how much sense it makes to you.
In exchange for all this, he promises to marry you unless he changes his mind or finds a better deal first, which will put you on the hook for his debts. He'll have a good number of years to wait before can file bankruptcy again too.
I don't think you can explain this to him without him thinking that you aren't committed to the sort of relationship he would like to have, which is one where you provide money, cleaning, cooking, and don't take up very much space. From his point of view, you not providing these things is showing you don't want that sort of relationship. I think you want to commit to a different sort of relationship than he's offering, or you wouldn't have asked this question.
if you're not paying your bills, you really should suck it up and work harder, right?
He seems to have figured out a different method that involves getting other people to work harder.
posted by yohko at 4:17 AM on February 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Have you talked to the last fiancé? I wouldn't be at all surprised she left him, or if he happened to "leave her" (sounds more like he told her to get out of her living space on short notice -- lucky for her, she must not have had much to pack with no space of her own in the house) around the time she quit paying for things or had a drop in her income.
Now he is asking that we combine finances
You don't mention that he's specified any sort of plan for this. It sounds like you'd be providing the income and he'd be providing the expenses. Try phrasing that "asking that I give him even more money" and see how much sense it makes to you.
In exchange for all this, he promises to marry you unless he changes his mind or finds a better deal first, which will put you on the hook for his debts. He'll have a good number of years to wait before can file bankruptcy again too.
I don't think you can explain this to him without him thinking that you aren't committed to the sort of relationship he would like to have, which is one where you provide money, cleaning, cooking, and don't take up very much space. From his point of view, you not providing these things is showing you don't want that sort of relationship. I think you want to commit to a different sort of relationship than he's offering, or you wouldn't have asked this question.
if you're not paying your bills, you really should suck it up and work harder, right?
He seems to have figured out a different method that involves getting other people to work harder.
posted by yohko at 4:17 AM on February 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is a really bad idea, and I say this as someone with a very bad record on dealing with money. I can't help feeling that you're in his life to pay the rent and find a bit of security. I rent a room in a house and I absolutely have my own space. If I were *living with someone*, I'd expect even more than that.
"I'm recently engaged to someone I get along well with & we have a lot in common."
This is also not telling me that this is the love of your life. I could say exactly this about most people I work with - it doesn't mean I should start planning a future with them.
posted by mippy at 8:37 AM on February 2, 2011
"I'm recently engaged to someone I get along well with & we have a lot in common."
This is also not telling me that this is the love of your life. I could say exactly this about most people I work with - it doesn't mean I should start planning a future with them.
posted by mippy at 8:37 AM on February 2, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
Hi everyone, I'm the original poster. I have much gratitude over everything posted here. I have read everything over and over, and am doing a lot of thinking. All of your responses helped me understand that the emotions I am feeling are completely valid. I don't have low self-esteem, but after one divorce, I'm constantly questioning if I'm a failure at relationships or not. So that's why I was second guessing myself here. It helps to have an outside perspective! I'm looking for a nice little apartment, and a nice little cat too (he's allergic). I'm going to give back the ring - it was bought on credit card, afterall - tell him that he should sell it to help his situation, and maybe we could try it again when he is financially stable. Until then, maybe we could date. He might not go for that - but life is way too short, and there's a lot I want to do! I say to myself all the time "It would be nice to be treated out for dinner, or taken to a concert or something." That's not asking too much. After not being in the dating scene for a long time, I guess I'm a little rusty (geez, at 36 yrs. old that sure sounds pathetic!).posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:31 PM on February 2, 2011 [16 favorites]
And thank you all again. I love this community here - you are all so kind to take the time to read & share your thoughts with me.
Excellent update - glad to hear we could help. Take care of yourself!
posted by 8dot3 at 7:43 PM on February 2, 2011
posted by 8dot3 at 7:43 PM on February 2, 2011
Wow OP, sounds like an excellent plan. I especially like the part with the ring, it sends such a clear signal. And the cat of course.
Good luck and I wish you plenty of wonderful dating experiences!
posted by Omnomnom at 3:50 AM on February 3, 2011
Good luck and I wish you plenty of wonderful dating experiences!
posted by Omnomnom at 3:50 AM on February 3, 2011
Good for you, OP!
I say to myself all the time "It would be nice to be treated out for dinner, or taken to a concert or something."
Yeah, I had a relationship where I said that to myself too. It's way better to happily take yourself to dinner rather than wait for someone else to make you a priority. Or bear the burden for constantly being the treater to the treatee.
Best of luck to you.
posted by griselda at 10:07 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
I say to myself all the time "It would be nice to be treated out for dinner, or taken to a concert or something."
Yeah, I had a relationship where I said that to myself too. It's way better to happily take yourself to dinner rather than wait for someone else to make you a priority. Or bear the burden for constantly being the treater to the treatee.
Best of luck to you.
posted by griselda at 10:07 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
« Older Engaging students in collaborative learning | The whirring. The. Constant. Whirring. Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by murrey at 6:27 PM on January 31, 2011 [57 favorites]