Do acapella choirs naturally gravitate to more consonant tunings?
January 25, 2011 9:21 PM Subscribe
Do acapella choirs naturally gravitate to more consonant tunings?
Today I heard an excellent performance of a choir whose song included dissonant pitches. In places I could hear overtones.. in some cases, a single soprano was singing the highest pitch (unless the choir itself was generating the overtone.. i don't know.)
I have a middlin' understanding of alternative tunings involving more consonance between intervals. I wasn't listening closely enough.. but I don't think I hear the intonation problems, and dissonance and beating in the choir that I would in a fixed tuning instrument.
So it made me wonder that even though our ears are tuned to equal tempermant due to the music around us if a good acappella choir will gravitate towards a more consonant tuning.
Thanks for your input.
Today I heard an excellent performance of a choir whose song included dissonant pitches. In places I could hear overtones.. in some cases, a single soprano was singing the highest pitch (unless the choir itself was generating the overtone.. i don't know.)
I have a middlin' understanding of alternative tunings involving more consonance between intervals. I wasn't listening closely enough.. but I don't think I hear the intonation problems, and dissonance and beating in the choir that I would in a fixed tuning instrument.
So it made me wonder that even though our ears are tuned to equal tempermant due to the music around us if a good acappella choir will gravitate towards a more consonant tuning.
Thanks for your input.
Huh, I hope someone with a lot of experience can answer this. Because I read somewhere (sorry forget where) that many singers had been unconsciously trained, by modern music, to sing in equal temperament. Besides, many just intervals sound strange - wrong, even - without the vibrations they get from being slightly out of tune. Sorry for contributing more questions instead of answers.
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 10:12 PM on January 25, 2011
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 10:12 PM on January 25, 2011
So it made me wonder that even though our ears are tuned to equal tempermant due to the music around us if a good acappella choir will gravitate towards a more consonant tuning.
A good a cappella group should not gravitate towards a more consonant tuning if it's not written in the music that way.
However, people are probably much more likely to hold a pretty little triad or its inversion than a weird sounding but deliciously crunchy chord like one with an augmented third/diminished 4th in it.
Generally the notes that make a chord sound not so consonant want to lead into the more consonant note--think half steps. Since a lot of the music we hear naturally has this resolution, I'm sure singers are more inclined to resolve the dissonance quicker rather than hold it out longer.
posted by astapasta24 at 10:20 PM on January 25, 2011
A good a cappella group should not gravitate towards a more consonant tuning if it's not written in the music that way.
However, people are probably much more likely to hold a pretty little triad or its inversion than a weird sounding but deliciously crunchy chord like one with an augmented third/diminished 4th in it.
Generally the notes that make a chord sound not so consonant want to lead into the more consonant note--think half steps. Since a lot of the music we hear naturally has this resolution, I'm sure singers are more inclined to resolve the dissonance quicker rather than hold it out longer.
posted by astapasta24 at 10:20 PM on January 25, 2011
I know from a friend who was in an advanced choir, they trained their singers to "correct" the equally tempered tunings into perfect tunings whenever they'd land on a chord. As someone who was in several much less advanced choirs, I had never even heard of this idea before. So, to answer your question, I think that most amateur groups (and even many professionals, I'd wager) sing in equal temperament because that is what they know - it's what the rehearsal piano plays!
posted by Zephyrial at 10:27 PM on January 25, 2011
posted by Zephyrial at 10:27 PM on January 25, 2011
I think there's no way they won't. I don't believe they could hold even temperament..I'd like to see a genuine recording of a cappella et.
I think the 'correction' is just getting the just interval better.
posted by Not Supplied at 10:32 PM on January 25, 2011
I think the 'correction' is just getting the just interval better.
posted by Not Supplied at 10:32 PM on January 25, 2011
Not only choirs but this happens as a matter of course on every instrument that can change pitch on the fly (so no harp, glockenspiel, organ). Equal temperament was invented as the least-bad compromise for fixed pitch instruments. Everyone else works in just tuning unless forced to do otherwise (eg, a duet between trumpet & piano). Classical players either pick it up by ear or are explicitly taught how to modify equal temperament so chords ring true (lower major 3rds, expand fifths, etc)
There are choral pieces by Gesualdo that are notoriously hard to sing for this exact reason - he drags the choir so far around the circle of fifths, then returns home so unusually, that if the choir doesn't consciously stick to equal temperament the ending key will differ from the beginning by some chunk of the Pythagorean comma.
posted by range at 11:56 PM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
There are choral pieces by Gesualdo that are notoriously hard to sing for this exact reason - he drags the choir so far around the circle of fifths, then returns home so unusually, that if the choir doesn't consciously stick to equal temperament the ending key will differ from the beginning by some chunk of the Pythagorean comma.
posted by range at 11:56 PM on January 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think a lot of it depends on the singers and their training, or their lack of training. I agree that good singers with good ears will tend to use their infinitely tunable instruments to actually sing in tune with one another. But many singers don't know how to do that, maybe because they've sung under conductors who expected them to regurgitate notes exactly as they sound on a piano, or maybe because they've just never learned that there is any other way.
It's kind of a weird dynamic, in that there are plenty of semi-educated singers and musicians who don't understand why you would ever intentionally sing "between" the notes on a piano, and on the other hand there are plenty of semi-uneducated singers (specifically barbershop singers, as phrontist noted above) who routinely sing between the piano notes, only because it sounds great and you can't ring the snot out of a chord if limit yourself to only the notes on a piano.
In answer to your question, yeah, I think a good a cappella choir will, in the absence of specific direction to do otherwise, tend to gravitate towards singing in tune with itself.
posted by Balonious Assault at 12:19 AM on January 26, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's kind of a weird dynamic, in that there are plenty of semi-educated singers and musicians who don't understand why you would ever intentionally sing "between" the notes on a piano, and on the other hand there are plenty of semi-uneducated singers (specifically barbershop singers, as phrontist noted above) who routinely sing between the piano notes, only because it sounds great and you can't ring the snot out of a chord if limit yourself to only the notes on a piano.
On barbershop harmony: Tuning and blend are the strength and joy of this style of music. Barbershop harmony originated as "ear harmony", and thus the singers tune to each other rather than to a musical instrument or absolute standard. This, together with the tightness and consonance of the harmony, accounts for the coveted "ring and lock" that is the hallmark of the sound. The ear naturally tunes pitches according to the natural mathematical relationships of just intonation because this tuning feels "solid" and "locked" to the singer. This solidity is further enhanced by the alignment of overtones, which reward the singer and listener with a "ring" when a chord is justly in tune. Additionally, barbershop craft emphasizes the matching of word sounds and the proper balancing of chords so that overtones are reinforced. It all converges to produce a marvelous blend of sound and a ringing sensation that barbershop singers learn to strive for and expect. A large part of the allure of this music is the ecstacy experinced by the singer upon hearing his/her voice in a locked chord.
In answer to your question, yeah, I think a good a cappella choir will, in the absence of specific direction to do otherwise, tend to gravitate towards singing in tune with itself.
posted by Balonious Assault at 12:19 AM on January 26, 2011 [4 favorites]
Nthing most of what was said above. If the music doesn't specifically call for it, you'd be making a stylistic choice to do so, which (in most contexts) wouldn't be all that appropriate.
You'd certainly be more likely to see it in a cappella groups that perform art/classical music than popular. In popular groups (like pretty much every college group, for instance) "blend" is the most important part of the sound, which is explicitly avoiding dissonance by matching pitch, tone, vowel shape, etc etc.
posted by SpiffyRob at 4:32 AM on January 26, 2011
You'd certainly be more likely to see it in a cappella groups that perform art/classical music than popular. In popular groups (like pretty much every college group, for instance) "blend" is the most important part of the sound, which is explicitly avoiding dissonance by matching pitch, tone, vowel shape, etc etc.
posted by SpiffyRob at 4:32 AM on January 26, 2011
A good a cappella group should not gravitate towards a more consonant tuning if it's not written in the music that way.
However, people are probably much more likely to hold a pretty little triad or its inversion than a weird sounding but deliciously crunchy chord like one with an augmented third/diminished 4th in it.
I think you've misunderstood the question -- it's about intonation, not chord construction. Instruments without fixed pitch, like a voice, the bowed strings, or a trombone, are capable of playing in just intonation, as opposed to a piano, guitar, or harp, which has fixed notes generally tuned to equal temperament.
Also, "augmented third" = perfect fourth, and "diminished 4th" = major third, so those aren't intervals you typically see.
posted by Anatoly Pisarenko at 6:54 AM on January 26, 2011
However, people are probably much more likely to hold a pretty little triad or its inversion than a weird sounding but deliciously crunchy chord like one with an augmented third/diminished 4th in it.
I think you've misunderstood the question -- it's about intonation, not chord construction. Instruments without fixed pitch, like a voice, the bowed strings, or a trombone, are capable of playing in just intonation, as opposed to a piano, guitar, or harp, which has fixed notes generally tuned to equal temperament.
Also, "augmented third" = perfect fourth, and "diminished 4th" = major third, so those aren't intervals you typically see.
posted by Anatoly Pisarenko at 6:54 AM on January 26, 2011
Response by poster: Wonderful answers all around. Thanks to everyone.
For those who didn't completely understand the tuning issue, this is a wonderful video that demonstrates how different tunings sound on a Bach piece. In my opinion, once you've heard the first tuning, the next start to degrade noticeably at about 3:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8M-JzIwbog
Thanks again.
posted by frodoxiii at 6:24 PM on January 26, 2011
For those who didn't completely understand the tuning issue, this is a wonderful video that demonstrates how different tunings sound on a Bach piece. In my opinion, once you've heard the first tuning, the next start to degrade noticeably at about 3:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8M-JzIwbog
Thanks again.
posted by frodoxiii at 6:24 PM on January 26, 2011
Late, but my data point - when I was in a choir we were actually explicitly trained to sing major thirds flatter and fifths sharper than the piano. Our director would play the dominant really loudly on the piano so that we could hear the appropriate overtones, and then he would play the nearest note on the piano for comparison.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:43 PM on January 26, 2011
posted by en forme de poire at 8:43 PM on January 26, 2011
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posted by phrontist at 9:26 PM on January 25, 2011