Do I dare to eat this peach?
January 14, 2011 12:12 PM Subscribe
Special snowflake quasi-stalker question....
I have read many of the very valuable AskMes about stalkers and harassers. The chorus of answers is always the same: Read the Gift of Fear, set a clear boundary, and then ignore, ignore, ignore.
Now I am in my own situation of an ex who will not leave me alone -- it isn't severe harassment or anything, just predictable emails or voicemails every few weeks pestering me to sit down and dissect "what went wrong." I have not responded to him AT ALL since September, after I received a nastygram from him accusing me of lying to him. It was the last red flag I needed to see, so I haven't responded to his whining.
I have a lawyer who is willing to write a cease and desist letter. I feel very reluctant to actually issue an ultimatum, because then I'll actually be forced to follow through if he doesn't knock it off. So I understand what I need to do, but my question is:
WHY? I've read the Gift of Fear -- WHY does it say "ignore" if "ignoring" is obviously not working? WHY should I send this letter, and will it work? Why will it work? How does a clingy person's brain work, if at all? Please explain so that I will feel like I am throwing water and not fuel on this fire.
I have read many of the very valuable AskMes about stalkers and harassers. The chorus of answers is always the same: Read the Gift of Fear, set a clear boundary, and then ignore, ignore, ignore.
Now I am in my own situation of an ex who will not leave me alone -- it isn't severe harassment or anything, just predictable emails or voicemails every few weeks pestering me to sit down and dissect "what went wrong." I have not responded to him AT ALL since September, after I received a nastygram from him accusing me of lying to him. It was the last red flag I needed to see, so I haven't responded to his whining.
I have a lawyer who is willing to write a cease and desist letter. I feel very reluctant to actually issue an ultimatum, because then I'll actually be forced to follow through if he doesn't knock it off. So I understand what I need to do, but my question is:
WHY? I've read the Gift of Fear -- WHY does it say "ignore" if "ignoring" is obviously not working? WHY should I send this letter, and will it work? Why will it work? How does a clingy person's brain work, if at all? Please explain so that I will feel like I am throwing water and not fuel on this fire.
WHY does it say "ignore" if "ignoring" is obviously not working?
Because anything else is going to work even less. Ignoring is likely to work, but sometimes it takes a bit of time.
You can however, step up the ignoring: change your phone number, or block his number(s) (paying for this service if needed). Set up an email filter so all his messages go into a folder and are marked as read. Then never look at them unless some legal need comes up. Inform your friends to never relay a message from him to you, or even tell you if he tried to give them a message.
This way, you are no longer even aware if he is "whining" or not.
posted by mikepop at 12:32 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Because anything else is going to work even less. Ignoring is likely to work, but sometimes it takes a bit of time.
You can however, step up the ignoring: change your phone number, or block his number(s) (paying for this service if needed). Set up an email filter so all his messages go into a folder and are marked as read. Then never look at them unless some legal need comes up. Inform your friends to never relay a message from him to you, or even tell you if he tried to give them a message.
This way, you are no longer even aware if he is "whining" or not.
posted by mikepop at 12:32 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Why are you thinking about this cease-and-desist letter? Is it because the "ignore" strategy doesn't seem to be working, and the emails/voicemails are getting to be super annoying? My vote is with change your email (or just set it up so that any email from him automatically goes in the trash), change your phone number (or get Google Voice, so you can set up filters), and continue on the ignore path. I do feel like the letter will add fuel to the fire - it will be confirmation to him that he reached you and maybe, MAYBE if he just keeps trying, eventually you will come around. Obviously that is not the case, so probably best to wait it out.
posted by coupdefoudre at 12:44 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by coupdefoudre at 12:44 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
i would be cautious about changing your email and phone numbers. why? if this person is a persistent stalker, you have just cut off communication and they may try new means to reach you. additionally, we cannot know if this letter will work. you probably know better than we do, because you know more about your ex than we do. but i do not think that it is a simple yes/know answer. (same goes for restraining or protection orders).
can you filter messages from them in your email to a separate folder so that you do not need to read them (except when you want to, to check for potential threats)?
can you get a new phone for you, and keep the old one to preserve voicemails from the person who is stalking you, to use as potential evidence in a case (if it ever gets to that level of action on your part)?
are you keeping a stalking log? this can be helpful if you ever do decide to take legal action against this person (again, as someone has already said, restraining orders often escalate the situation, and talking to a professional with experience in stalking and domestic violence may be helpful).
and on that note, if an ex is stalking you, it's beyond "stalking law" and may actually qualify as "domestic violence" evidence in your jurisdiction. does the lawyer you are working with understanding domestic violence and/or stalking dynamics? have you worked out a safety plan? here are some resources on stalking and domestic violence that you may want to reach out to. (safety planning, on a basic level, is preparing for the hopefully very unlikely situation that you need to "get out of somewhere" or "stay safe" because of your ex, and you will have already thought through a number of options to keep you safe (often, but not always, better than thinking on your feet in a crisis)). talking to experts on these issues may be of use. also, note that the link that is repeated is for the national stalking resource center. they are some of the national experts on this issue.
i could write more on this, but i'll end here.
posted by anya32 at 12:47 PM on January 14, 2011
can you filter messages from them in your email to a separate folder so that you do not need to read them (except when you want to, to check for potential threats)?
can you get a new phone for you, and keep the old one to preserve voicemails from the person who is stalking you, to use as potential evidence in a case (if it ever gets to that level of action on your part)?
are you keeping a stalking log? this can be helpful if you ever do decide to take legal action against this person (again, as someone has already said, restraining orders often escalate the situation, and talking to a professional with experience in stalking and domestic violence may be helpful).
and on that note, if an ex is stalking you, it's beyond "stalking law" and may actually qualify as "domestic violence" evidence in your jurisdiction. does the lawyer you are working with understanding domestic violence and/or stalking dynamics? have you worked out a safety plan? here are some resources on stalking and domestic violence that you may want to reach out to. (safety planning, on a basic level, is preparing for the hopefully very unlikely situation that you need to "get out of somewhere" or "stay safe" because of your ex, and you will have already thought through a number of options to keep you safe (often, but not always, better than thinking on your feet in a crisis)). talking to experts on these issues may be of use. also, note that the link that is repeated is for the national stalking resource center. they are some of the national experts on this issue.
i could write more on this, but i'll end here.
posted by anya32 at 12:47 PM on January 14, 2011
I've seen this mentioned elsewhere here, so perhaps you've seen it already, but you can do a better job of ignoring him by blocking his number and settings the emails to move to a different folder so you never see them. I believe google voice also allows custom voicemail, so you could use that as an alternative.
posted by zug at 12:51 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by zug at 12:51 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Only since September? Yeah, not enough time. Divert the e-mail to a folder, though I agree that changing your number offers a "Oh dear! Now I must seek out an alternate method of contact!" risk.
This person is pathetic but does not sound like a threat to your safety; keep that in mind, that this is an irritant rather than a threat. However, as with all of these idiots, any response will be construed as encouragement; don't have a letter sent -- again, it really hasn't been very long.
posted by kmennie at 12:51 PM on January 14, 2011
This person is pathetic but does not sound like a threat to your safety; keep that in mind, that this is an irritant rather than a threat. However, as with all of these idiots, any response will be construed as encouragement; don't have a letter sent -- again, it really hasn't been very long.
posted by kmennie at 12:51 PM on January 14, 2011
Your saying "Ignoring is not working" doesn't make sense. Ignoring hasn't worked yet, but you haven't been ignoring for all that long.
Remember what de Becker says--if you ignore 110 calls and pick up the 111th, what you're communicating is that it takes 111 calls to reach you.
If you've ignored calls "every few weeks" since September, you haven't ignored that many calls. Keep with it, is my advice.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:15 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Remember what de Becker says--if you ignore 110 calls and pick up the 111th, what you're communicating is that it takes 111 calls to reach you.
If you've ignored calls "every few weeks" since September, you haven't ignored that many calls. Keep with it, is my advice.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:15 PM on January 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
If you think about stalking in behavioral terms (I know most people think that humans are more complex than this, but I think it can be a useful way to conceptualize things), not ignoring him would equal rewarding his behavior.
In this case, he is pestering you repeatedly with the hope that you will eventually break down and agree to see/speak to him. By ignoring him you are trying to extinguish (i.e. eliminate) the behavior (e-mailing and calling you) by withholding the reward (an actual interaction with you) until he learns that contacting you will not yield his desired reward.
What typically happens to animals (and humans) when you try to extinguish a response is called "extinction burst," which essentially means that as you ignore him, the behavior will become more frequent and persistent with the hope that extra effort will achieve the desired reward. It is key to be consistent in ignoring the behavior, because if you ignore him for 6 months and then give in out of desperation, all he will learn is not to give up because if he pesters you long/hard enough you will give in. If you ignore ignore ignore until the end of time, there is a better likelihood that he will give up and stop altogether.
posted by Mrs.Spiffy at 1:20 PM on January 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
In this case, he is pestering you repeatedly with the hope that you will eventually break down and agree to see/speak to him. By ignoring him you are trying to extinguish (i.e. eliminate) the behavior (e-mailing and calling you) by withholding the reward (an actual interaction with you) until he learns that contacting you will not yield his desired reward.
What typically happens to animals (and humans) when you try to extinguish a response is called "extinction burst," which essentially means that as you ignore him, the behavior will become more frequent and persistent with the hope that extra effort will achieve the desired reward. It is key to be consistent in ignoring the behavior, because if you ignore him for 6 months and then give in out of desperation, all he will learn is not to give up because if he pesters you long/hard enough you will give in. If you ignore ignore ignore until the end of time, there is a better likelihood that he will give up and stop altogether.
posted by Mrs.Spiffy at 1:20 PM on January 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Just an obvious question. Have you actually told him you do not want any contact and asked him to stop? I think that should have preceded the ignoring.
posted by Decani at 1:29 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Decani at 1:29 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Agreed w/ Decani. Did you set a clear boundary? Or did you just stop responding to him? It's not clear what happened in September. Was he your ex at that point?
Without saying that makes it okay, if you just vanished that could help explain his persistence/need to know. Maybe he just needs (or thinks he needs) closure. Maybe he's trying to control you. We don't really have a lot of information here.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:56 PM on January 14, 2011
Without saying that makes it okay, if you just vanished that could help explain his persistence/need to know. Maybe he just needs (or thinks he needs) closure. Maybe he's trying to control you. We don't really have a lot of information here.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:56 PM on January 14, 2011
I'd write 1 time and say, as politely and kindly as possible "I'd prefer to cease contact for the time being. I wish you well, but please do not contact me."
posted by theora55 at 3:06 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by theora55 at 3:06 PM on January 14, 2011
If you haven't yet sent a simple and direct "knock it off, stop trying to contact me" message, do so.
If you have, consider a little more ignoring to see if he will tire of it before the cease and desist. If he's at all prone to instability, this will be a provocation. Or, in his mind, a reason to contact you so he can explain that he isn't crazy.
And changing numbers and email addresses just makes stalkers crazier. If they are just immature saps who think they will wear you down until you like them, the "number disconnected" and "mailbox doesn't exist" messages might give them an excuse to come knocking to "see if you are ok".
It sucks that people won't give up, but the best option is the path of least long-term resistance.
posted by gjc at 3:23 PM on January 14, 2011
If you have, consider a little more ignoring to see if he will tire of it before the cease and desist. If he's at all prone to instability, this will be a provocation. Or, in his mind, a reason to contact you so he can explain that he isn't crazy.
And changing numbers and email addresses just makes stalkers crazier. If they are just immature saps who think they will wear you down until you like them, the "number disconnected" and "mailbox doesn't exist" messages might give them an excuse to come knocking to "see if you are ok".
It sucks that people won't give up, but the best option is the path of least long-term resistance.
posted by gjc at 3:23 PM on January 14, 2011
I'm going to be that awkward person and say, "Have a little empathy." The dude needs closure and he's desperate for it. I've been there. It is so incredibly painful to have a relationship end without understanding WHY that it can take over the mind and heart in the most irrational ways, and to be honest, I'm sure your ex totally knows he's being excessive, but I don't think he can help himself.
You could contact him, with very set a boundaries in place so that he knows explicitly what he's in for. "I will agree to one meeting, and one meeting only. I will explain my side, you may explain yours, and we have a set number of follow up questions that may be asked during the duration of this meeting, but absolutely no contact can be made thereafter. I expect you to be respectful, and I expect you to behave, and I will do the same. Please respect that what I have to say to you is what I have to say. No more. No less. I am not wrong for feeling the way I do, and neither or you. The bottom line is this: no amount of talking will get us back together, so please don't waste either of our time by attempting to repair that which cannot be repaired."
And then follow through.
Honestly, that's what I wish my ex had done. I guess I just feel for those of us who have horrible breakups and don't know how to recover afterward.
YMMV.
posted by patronuscharms at 4:49 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
You could contact him, with very set a boundaries in place so that he knows explicitly what he's in for. "I will agree to one meeting, and one meeting only. I will explain my side, you may explain yours, and we have a set number of follow up questions that may be asked during the duration of this meeting, but absolutely no contact can be made thereafter. I expect you to be respectful, and I expect you to behave, and I will do the same. Please respect that what I have to say to you is what I have to say. No more. No less. I am not wrong for feeling the way I do, and neither or you. The bottom line is this: no amount of talking will get us back together, so please don't waste either of our time by attempting to repair that which cannot be repaired."
And then follow through.
Honestly, that's what I wish my ex had done. I guess I just feel for those of us who have horrible breakups and don't know how to recover afterward.
YMMV.
posted by patronuscharms at 4:49 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Don't contact this person now. If they haven't gotten the message after 4 months, there's something wrong with them & they're not going to respond appropriately to a politely-worded brushoff note. Keep ignoring.
posted by facetious at 5:43 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by facetious at 5:43 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Honestly, that's what I wish my ex had done. I guess I just feel for those of us who have horrible breakups and don't know how to recover afterward.
Yes.
But harassing the other person for months is not behavior to be rewarded. It's great to want closure or whatever, but bullying the other person into giving it to you is Not Okay.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:34 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yes.
But harassing the other person for months is not behavior to be rewarded. It's great to want closure or whatever, but bullying the other person into giving it to you is Not Okay.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:34 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Remember, too, patronuscharms, that the "ignore" business came after a back-and-forth that ended in what the OP calls a "nastygram" from the ex. So it sounds like the message was communicated to the ex, but the ex isn't hearing it.
I mean, how many times does one have to have the exit interview?
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:36 PM on January 14, 2011
I mean, how many times does one have to have the exit interview?
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:36 PM on January 14, 2011
I was recently stalked like this and posted to AskMe a few times for insight and ideas. I think it is effing RIDICULOUS for anyone to say you have to put up with the harassment for longer in order for ignoring to work.... but I did put up with mine for about 3 years! Heh.
Recently, I changed the landline, I assigned stalker a silent ringtone, and then someone here suggested Youmail. Youmail comes in a free version and it saved my sanity! Basically, it diverts your cellphone calls when they go to voicemail (no need to change your phone number!!) and then you get to assign your greeting of choice to particular numbers. I assigned my stalker the standard, "This number has been disconnected" message AND I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM HIM SINCE HE PHONED AND HEARD THAT:)) All other calls get my regular old happy greeting. In the end, it was that simple.
My point is you may not be able to block this guy's attempts to contact you, but you can block the result. Set your email filters, use Youmail or something similar to avoid changing your number, and continue to ignore. Pull the trigger down the road with the lawyer and restraining order if this doesn't work....
Obviously, YMMV. If you think he's dangerous, you may want to go another route. But if he's only contacting you with harassing little messages and cyber winks without threats - just to let you know he's still focused on you - than go ahead and remove his ability to get at your psyche by any means necessary.
Good luck!
If I had known Youmail was possible (because it enabled me to keep my mobile number) I would not have put up with that shit for 3 long years! And I have a lawyer like you, just didn't want to use that option. Use whatever technology is applicable here and get yourself free of this mess. Again, good luck!
posted by jbenben at 8:21 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Recently, I changed the landline, I assigned stalker a silent ringtone, and then someone here suggested Youmail. Youmail comes in a free version and it saved my sanity! Basically, it diverts your cellphone calls when they go to voicemail (no need to change your phone number!!) and then you get to assign your greeting of choice to particular numbers. I assigned my stalker the standard, "This number has been disconnected" message AND I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM HIM SINCE HE PHONED AND HEARD THAT:)) All other calls get my regular old happy greeting. In the end, it was that simple.
My point is you may not be able to block this guy's attempts to contact you, but you can block the result. Set your email filters, use Youmail or something similar to avoid changing your number, and continue to ignore. Pull the trigger down the road with the lawyer and restraining order if this doesn't work....
Obviously, YMMV. If you think he's dangerous, you may want to go another route. But if he's only contacting you with harassing little messages and cyber winks without threats - just to let you know he's still focused on you - than go ahead and remove his ability to get at your psyche by any means necessary.
Good luck!
If I had known Youmail was possible (because it enabled me to keep my mobile number) I would not have put up with that shit for 3 long years! And I have a lawyer like you, just didn't want to use that option. Use whatever technology is applicable here and get yourself free of this mess. Again, good luck!
posted by jbenben at 8:21 PM on January 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sidhe -- good call; missed the mark on this one. Didn't realize that the dude had actually ventured into the realm of real harassment -- I just thought he was being persistent about getting feedback. Guess I let some old tapes run in my head before I put my two cents in on this one properly.
OP: if this guy is being a douchebag and harassing you as opposed to just being melancholy and all "I just want to know what I can do better next time", do what jbenben said.
posted by patronuscharms at 9:00 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
OP: if this guy is being a douchebag and harassing you as opposed to just being melancholy and all "I just want to know what I can do better next time", do what jbenben said.
posted by patronuscharms at 9:00 PM on January 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
A few more things to answer your questions about mentality and so on...
- Might I suggest that you don't waste time trying to figure this guy out? I did that. I got no where, but I scared myself from time to time. I think the basic mindset is folks like this say out loud that they love you, miss you, just wanted to hear your voice blah blah blah... but the truth is they want to fuck with you. They are petty. They are angry. And they are cowards. So, they call, text, and sometimes email. If you responded to a "nice" request for contact, they would quickly turn on you and pick a fight. If you've tried that route, you already know what I mean.
- Similarly, folks who do this are not sane or rational. I agree that if you send the letter it will not deter your stalker and will be adding fuel to the fire. When someone is petty and angry enough to hound you for 5 months (or 3 years in my case) a Cease and Desist Letter is just acknowledgement that their efforts are paying off. Going nuclear with a restraining order might be different IF you enforce it and report every infraction/get him arrested and press charges.
- I think you best move is to remove the result of his contact (filter emails to trash, social networks set to private, use a silent ring tone for his number, Youmail, pay your cell carrier to block his number, etc. etc.) but without actually changing your number or email address. He still thinks you are ignoring him, meanwhile, you aren't receiving the contact so you aren't getting emotionally rattled.
- Resist checking the content of his filtered email, text, and voice messages. Really. If you are monitoring him, you're still paying attention and giving him your energy. The sooner you forget there is even a possibility he's thinking about you, the sooner you will forget he exists.
- Promise yourself that on the remote chance he ever shows up anywhere in person looking for you that you will call your lawyer and visit a police station ASAP to file a report. And then follow through if the need arises. DO NOT SECOND GUESS YOURSELF ON THIS POINT. In the event this guy persisted despite all of you precautions, you would be 300% justified in going nuclear and labeling him a harasser in the eyes of the law. Plus, it is just good policy to take escalation like that seriously.
I wish you the best. Hope this helped.
posted by jbenben at 10:02 PM on January 14, 2011
- Might I suggest that you don't waste time trying to figure this guy out? I did that. I got no where, but I scared myself from time to time. I think the basic mindset is folks like this say out loud that they love you, miss you, just wanted to hear your voice blah blah blah... but the truth is they want to fuck with you. They are petty. They are angry. And they are cowards. So, they call, text, and sometimes email. If you responded to a "nice" request for contact, they would quickly turn on you and pick a fight. If you've tried that route, you already know what I mean.
- Similarly, folks who do this are not sane or rational. I agree that if you send the letter it will not deter your stalker and will be adding fuel to the fire. When someone is petty and angry enough to hound you for 5 months (or 3 years in my case) a Cease and Desist Letter is just acknowledgement that their efforts are paying off. Going nuclear with a restraining order might be different IF you enforce it and report every infraction/get him arrested and press charges.
- I think you best move is to remove the result of his contact (filter emails to trash, social networks set to private, use a silent ring tone for his number, Youmail, pay your cell carrier to block his number, etc. etc.) but without actually changing your number or email address. He still thinks you are ignoring him, meanwhile, you aren't receiving the contact so you aren't getting emotionally rattled.
- Resist checking the content of his filtered email, text, and voice messages. Really. If you are monitoring him, you're still paying attention and giving him your energy. The sooner you forget there is even a possibility he's thinking about you, the sooner you will forget he exists.
- Promise yourself that on the remote chance he ever shows up anywhere in person looking for you that you will call your lawyer and visit a police station ASAP to file a report. And then follow through if the need arises. DO NOT SECOND GUESS YOURSELF ON THIS POINT. In the event this guy persisted despite all of you precautions, you would be 300% justified in going nuclear and labeling him a harasser in the eyes of the law. Plus, it is just good policy to take escalation like that seriously.
I wish you the best. Hope this helped.
posted by jbenben at 10:02 PM on January 14, 2011
Shepherd put this together on what he learned from being the object of a stalker. Hope it is of use to you.
posted by virago at 10:30 PM on January 14, 2011
posted by virago at 10:30 PM on January 14, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you all for your help and support. I can see where I was unclear about the back story when I tried to keep it general.posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:04 AM on January 15, 2011 [1 favorite]
The short history is this: we dated for about 4 months and I called it off in March of last year because I wasn't feeling it and wasn't ready for his level of seriousness after a divorce. We stayed friendly and had lunch a few times. I graduated from the program where I met him, and he went home for the summer so I figured his interest would fizzle. Instead, his emails and calls got pretty clingly, so I called him up and told him EXPLICITLY several times that we were NOT going to be in a relationship again, ever. He kept saying he understood. Then he found my online dating profile and hit the fan about why I want to be in a relationship with "some guy on the internet" but not with him. Again, I drew a boundary and said that we were friends, but that did not entail me being accountable to him for all details of my life after a break up. At the end of the summer he returned and we met for lunch which was horribly awkward....he confronted me about letting my communication with him go quite and insisted that talking to me online doesn't lead him on and that I should keep talking to him because we're friends. He then got very insistent about having lunch TWO OR THREE TIMES in the next week, and I called him back up and said that three set dates a week was practically dating -- which we were not and would not be doing. I said to him AGAIN that I was not ready for a serious relationship and that I would not be interested in dating him again and I informed him of a clean break starting asap.
A few weeks later I started getting emails that the clean break had worked, he was over me, so when could we get lunch? In the meantime, things finally clicked with a guy I had met online months before. I'll spare you the details, but I fell hard and fast and we're really happy. But my ex was not -- after he mined my own mother's facebook page and found pictures of me and my date at my sister's wedding. That is when I got the really hateful email about how I'm a liar, which he based on a timeline that he made up in his own head. He believes I lied to him when I instituted the clean break about being in a relationship -- which honest to god I did not, and even if I did most sane guys would probable see it as a polite kiss-off and move on. I emailed back a very short, "We are done talking here, leave me alone." The emails have continued: a recent one scared me because he said that even though he's so afraid of seeing me, he wanted me to know he'll be in my building everyday getting lunch in the cafe downstairs.
The tricky part here is this: we are both very new members in a very professional field. Once I am licensed, I will have the affirmative obligation to report behavior that reflects poorly of a member's character and fitness (yeah, it's law!). So I talked to my lawyer and reached this tentative solution: I will continue to "ignore" his contacts by forwarding them to a friend to screen for any actual threats. A cease and desist letter from anybody will just let him know that I'm reading and ignoring his emails -- for all he knows now I'm not even seeing them. If we do "bump into each other," the letter will go out based on that interaction. And once my obligation to report becomes affirmative, well, I'll do what I need to because I'd hate to be silent before he gets obsessed with a client or something.
Again, thank you all. I was looking for some validation of my hesitancy to send the letter. Thanks."
If that's too long to post, that's OK. If you need to edit or just not post it, that's OK too. I didn't want to be overly specific in my original post because I can't remember if I've told this guy that I use this site. But maybe buried down the line wouldn't be so bad, because I don't think he'll see himself in the OP. Thanks either way!
Ah, the "friend" excuse. That changes things a bit. I had nearly the exact same thing happen to me, and the guy stalking me hung all his righteous indignation on that one word, "friend." I can just imagine him thinking, "I'm over her, I really am! I just want to be friends! What's wrong with her? Why doesn't she get that I'm over her? It's totally innocent! I just have to prove that I can be around her without making romantic overtures! Then she'll see!"
I had to make it very clear to the guy in question in my case that I didn not want to be friends. I told him I didn't like being friends with exes and that my new boyfriend didn't want me to be friends with exes. He came up with arguments. Finally, I just said, "I don't want to be your friend." And the thing that really shamed him, and finally made him see that he was being a jerk, was a line like "You don't get to choose your friends like that. It's not how it works. You get friends organically when people feel like being your friend. You can't bully someone into being your friend." Yes, I actually had to spell that out to him. Somehow, that made it click for him.
And I'm pretty sure this guy wasn't over me, of course. But the rationalizing part of his brain was covering up all those emotions and urges to gety close to me by providing him with the excuse of "friend." I also think he felt guilty for how he'd acted, and wanted to see that I was okay. I further think that he wanted to perks of emotional closeness to continue without sex. Perhaps he hadn't really had his life lesson that "deep friendship and trust comes along with sex" in some cases, and thought he could get the "milk for free", so to speak.
In my case, explicity spelling out that I did not want to be friends curbed the stalking. It's something to consider in your situation, since it seems he's hung up on the "friends" thing, but you know best if that is likely to work with him.
posted by Nixy at 9:38 AM on January 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
I had to make it very clear to the guy in question in my case that I didn not want to be friends. I told him I didn't like being friends with exes and that my new boyfriend didn't want me to be friends with exes. He came up with arguments. Finally, I just said, "I don't want to be your friend." And the thing that really shamed him, and finally made him see that he was being a jerk, was a line like "You don't get to choose your friends like that. It's not how it works. You get friends organically when people feel like being your friend. You can't bully someone into being your friend." Yes, I actually had to spell that out to him. Somehow, that made it click for him.
And I'm pretty sure this guy wasn't over me, of course. But the rationalizing part of his brain was covering up all those emotions and urges to gety close to me by providing him with the excuse of "friend." I also think he felt guilty for how he'd acted, and wanted to see that I was okay. I further think that he wanted to perks of emotional closeness to continue without sex. Perhaps he hadn't really had his life lesson that "deep friendship and trust comes along with sex" in some cases, and thought he could get the "milk for free", so to speak.
In my case, explicity spelling out that I did not want to be friends curbed the stalking. It's something to consider in your situation, since it seems he's hung up on the "friends" thing, but you know best if that is likely to work with him.
posted by Nixy at 9:38 AM on January 15, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yes, your explanation effects our answers a lot because it turns out you are mandated to report his unbalanced behavior. What a game changer! What you really wanted was insight based on your very specific set of circumstances. Ahhhh. Thanks.
It sounds like you have everything well in hand. If you were looking for validation that your next steps are necessary because he likely won't quit anytime soon - then YES. Based on your update, this guy isn't going away, and ignoring him is not a valid long term plan based on your licensing requirements. You're doing the right thing.
BTW... the part where he informs you he'll be in your building everyday? That + all other behavior = Restraining Order. Coupled with the unhinged accusations about your non-existent romantic relationship with him, it's clearly a threat and not an invitation to be "lunch mates." Even for those of us who have dealt with stalker ex's, informing you he'll be at your place of business every day is well over the line. Doubly so because he wasn't afraid to state that in writing, despite the fact that he must know what you know about his professional requirements. Wow.
I know you are getting advice from your lawyer, but you may want to seek advice from the DA in your jurisdiction, the police, and psychiatric resources. My lawyer is good, but he's conservative sometimes. I could totally see him thinking the right move might be a cease and desist letter, when really, the answer is an immediate full-stop court order of protection. Your lawyer might be giving you similarly conservative advice based on text book law and not the curly whirly stalker logic you are actually dealing with here. Talk to some folks who have hands-on experience with this specific situation if your lawyer does not.
In the end, the idea here is for you to remain safe. All the best.
posted by jbenben at 10:19 AM on January 15, 2011
It sounds like you have everything well in hand. If you were looking for validation that your next steps are necessary because he likely won't quit anytime soon - then YES. Based on your update, this guy isn't going away, and ignoring him is not a valid long term plan based on your licensing requirements. You're doing the right thing.
BTW... the part where he informs you he'll be in your building everyday? That + all other behavior = Restraining Order. Coupled with the unhinged accusations about your non-existent romantic relationship with him, it's clearly a threat and not an invitation to be "lunch mates." Even for those of us who have dealt with stalker ex's, informing you he'll be at your place of business every day is well over the line. Doubly so because he wasn't afraid to state that in writing, despite the fact that he must know what you know about his professional requirements. Wow.
I know you are getting advice from your lawyer, but you may want to seek advice from the DA in your jurisdiction, the police, and psychiatric resources. My lawyer is good, but he's conservative sometimes. I could totally see him thinking the right move might be a cease and desist letter, when really, the answer is an immediate full-stop court order of protection. Your lawyer might be giving you similarly conservative advice based on text book law and not the curly whirly stalker logic you are actually dealing with here. Talk to some folks who have hands-on experience with this specific situation if your lawyer does not.
In the end, the idea here is for you to remain safe. All the best.
posted by jbenben at 10:19 AM on January 15, 2011
You've already done what you can. You told him to leave you alone. He didn't.
Restraining order. You can give him one last chance. Perhaps you have a lawyer write a cease and desist letter, but tell him you will get a restraining order if you receive any communications from him or if he harasses you in any way whatsoever, such as harassing or initiating unwelcome communications with friends of yours.
If he does - and he will - get the RO.
Be prepared to call the police when he violates the RO. He will.
And no regrets on your part.
posted by Xoebe at 4:59 PM on January 17, 2011
Restraining order. You can give him one last chance. Perhaps you have a lawyer write a cease and desist letter, but tell him you will get a restraining order if you receive any communications from him or if he harasses you in any way whatsoever, such as harassing or initiating unwelcome communications with friends of yours.
If he does - and he will - get the RO.
Be prepared to call the police when he violates the RO. He will.
And no regrets on your part.
posted by Xoebe at 4:59 PM on January 17, 2011
Yes, all means eat this peach.
I would suggest that you go ahead and have the attorney send the letter, and then when/if never stops contacting you, then follow through with what you have to do.
Perhaps that is what he needs, to "move on."
He sounds like a real snowflake.
Pehaps all he needs is the ultimatum in order to "move on."
Heck, deep down inside he might be completely ready to move one, and is just waiting for something like that to finally give him a reason to implement his plan to do just that.
Just imagine how wonderful your life will be if he was to "move on" for all eternity. What a blessing that would be to you.
Imagine how happy you would be knowing that you were finally able to get rid of that pest, and that you will never have to worry about being contacted by hime again for all eternity.
He sounds like the type that would disapear into the wilderness, or perhaps commit suicide, etc. I say good ridance. You deserve better, and he deserves to "move on."
Peace be with you,
MM
posted by mistermagic at 10:39 PM on August 7, 2011
I would suggest that you go ahead and have the attorney send the letter, and then when/if never stops contacting you, then follow through with what you have to do.
Perhaps that is what he needs, to "move on."
He sounds like a real snowflake.
Pehaps all he needs is the ultimatum in order to "move on."
Heck, deep down inside he might be completely ready to move one, and is just waiting for something like that to finally give him a reason to implement his plan to do just that.
Just imagine how wonderful your life will be if he was to "move on" for all eternity. What a blessing that would be to you.
Imagine how happy you would be knowing that you were finally able to get rid of that pest, and that you will never have to worry about being contacted by hime again for all eternity.
He sounds like the type that would disapear into the wilderness, or perhaps commit suicide, etc. I say good ridance. You deserve better, and he deserves to "move on."
Peace be with you,
MM
posted by mistermagic at 10:39 PM on August 7, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
I took these steps to get this person out of my life, these steps were:
1. Changed my email address .
2. Changed my phone number.
3. Made my social network accounts "Private" and/or blocked the person.
4. Did not reply to any letters through mail, if you are receiving mail - take them back to the post office. Do not open them. And ask the post office to return the mail to sender. That is a pretty clear way of telling the person you are not interested, without directly speaking with them.
I would try these steps first if you can, and if it doesn't work, try sending the letter.
posted by Bron-Y-Aur at 12:19 PM on January 14, 2011 [4 favorites]