Can my friend finish college?
January 13, 2011 2:55 PM Subscribe
Is it at all possible for my friend to finish college?
Asking for a friend: A good friend of mine was kicked out of his program in college with 9 credits (3 classes or one part-time semester) to go. Admittedly, he was a poor student who did not seek help or tutoring when it was available to him, and he was kicked out because he did not pass a required class for the second time around. Apparently if you fail a required class twice, you lose your chance of getting the credit, and if you can't get the credit then you can't complete the program and have to find a new one.
Now he is very torn up that he will not get a degree after making it this far, and he believes he has two options: re-apply to a different program of study and increase his already massive debt by about 60 percent...or quit school for good. He tried appealing, but his advisor and the department head did not cooperate or have much sympathy for him. Right now he's leaning toward quitting for good, though he is extremely depressed that he will not have his degree after getting this far and racking up this much debt.
Is there a case for him at all? Or if he failed the program then it's tough shit, he failed and he's not allowed back in and he can't get a degree unless he wants to take out more loans, and he's fucked himself for good because this one class got the best of him twice? 3 classes until he'd be a degree-holding American! That just sucks. Any advice?
Asking for a friend: A good friend of mine was kicked out of his program in college with 9 credits (3 classes or one part-time semester) to go. Admittedly, he was a poor student who did not seek help or tutoring when it was available to him, and he was kicked out because he did not pass a required class for the second time around. Apparently if you fail a required class twice, you lose your chance of getting the credit, and if you can't get the credit then you can't complete the program and have to find a new one.
Now he is very torn up that he will not get a degree after making it this far, and he believes he has two options: re-apply to a different program of study and increase his already massive debt by about 60 percent...or quit school for good. He tried appealing, but his advisor and the department head did not cooperate or have much sympathy for him. Right now he's leaning toward quitting for good, though he is extremely depressed that he will not have his degree after getting this far and racking up this much debt.
Is there a case for him at all? Or if he failed the program then it's tough shit, he failed and he's not allowed back in and he can't get a degree unless he wants to take out more loans, and he's fucked himself for good because this one class got the best of him twice? 3 classes until he'd be a degree-holding American! That just sucks. Any advice?
Universities have guidance counsellors. He needs to go to the guidance counsellors - and ask for advice.
If the department head is not helpful - try the Dean's office.
Keep trying with the university - knock on every door, and talk to every administrator at the university.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
posted by Flood at 3:11 PM on January 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
If the department head is not helpful - try the Dean's office.
Keep trying with the university - knock on every door, and talk to every administrator at the university.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
posted by Flood at 3:11 PM on January 13, 2011 [5 favorites]
This sort of thing is usually helped by taking a few community college courses and doing very well at them. This helped me get back into school after I was kicked out for insufficient academic performance.
posted by norbulator at 3:14 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by norbulator at 3:14 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
You didn't say if he is at a State or Private university. He should really look into transferring to a state school if he is at a private college or into another state school if he is already at one. I'm recommending a state school because the tuition will be cheaper and he doesn't need any more debt than necessary.
He's basically blown his chances at his current school. They have policies and, unless his family name is on a building, they aren't changing them. So time for a fresh start. He has a lot of credits that will have value somewhere else. Not all will be transferable but even if he loses some he should still be a Senior or something close to that. It will be one year of his life and some additional debt but he will HAVE A DEGREE.
His other option is to quit, have almost as much debt and nothing to show for it. Oh and he'll have to explain this in every interview he'll have for the rest of his life. Unless he's going the non-traditional route, almost every job in the US seems to want a BA/BS at a minimum*. He needs that paper so suck it up and get it done.
*Yes this is a stupid policy. Companies can't legally give IQ tests to employees so a degree is a rough substitute for proof of a potential employee having an IQ of at least 100.
posted by JohntheContrarian at 3:18 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
He's basically blown his chances at his current school. They have policies and, unless his family name is on a building, they aren't changing them. So time for a fresh start. He has a lot of credits that will have value somewhere else. Not all will be transferable but even if he loses some he should still be a Senior or something close to that. It will be one year of his life and some additional debt but he will HAVE A DEGREE.
His other option is to quit, have almost as much debt and nothing to show for it. Oh and he'll have to explain this in every interview he'll have for the rest of his life. Unless he's going the non-traditional route, almost every job in the US seems to want a BA/BS at a minimum*. He needs that paper so suck it up and get it done.
*Yes this is a stupid policy. Companies can't legally give IQ tests to employees so a degree is a rough substitute for proof of a potential employee having an IQ of at least 100.
posted by JohntheContrarian at 3:18 PM on January 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
He probably has options if he appeals to the dean of students or to some sort of ombudsman's office. However, that might be meaningless without departmental support--the department chair is almost always the deciding party in this situation. So I'd offer this to you:
Let him quit for now.
Seriously, if he's that far underwater with debt, and a crappy, unmotivated student who couldn't get his shit together after being given multiple chances to pass a required major class, and if he doesn't have department support behind him, it's likely that they feel that he hasn't demonstrated the kind of behavior that would show that he'll actually be capable of doing the required work this time around to pass.
Sometimes stuff like this can be a blessing in disguise, an indication that the person's chosen path isn't working for them--right now. I had a lot of friends who flunked out in college, only to go on to successful careers--my husband was one of them. He withdrew from, or failed out of, three schools. Three! When he finally felt he was ready to go back, after a decent working life, he was a much more driven student. He received significant financial aid as a transfer student, redid all but the last two years of school, and graduated college magna cum laude.
Sometimes letting something go for now is the best choice. It doesn't mean it has to be permanent, but if he's digging himself deeper in debt, there's no reason to keep going on this kind of endless treadmill. At the very least, if he's thinking of changing his major, he might as well apply to other, more affordable schools as a transfer student.
(And seriously, is this the only class he's failed? Are you sure? Because I feel . . . skeptical of that. Usually, you'd only encounter this kind of resistance from administrators if you have a sub-passing GPA, etc. If it is the only class, he might look into, say, changing his concentration within his major so that this course isn't required. But really, you should probably let him quit.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:24 PM on January 13, 2011 [6 favorites]
Let him quit for now.
Seriously, if he's that far underwater with debt, and a crappy, unmotivated student who couldn't get his shit together after being given multiple chances to pass a required major class, and if he doesn't have department support behind him, it's likely that they feel that he hasn't demonstrated the kind of behavior that would show that he'll actually be capable of doing the required work this time around to pass.
Sometimes stuff like this can be a blessing in disguise, an indication that the person's chosen path isn't working for them--right now. I had a lot of friends who flunked out in college, only to go on to successful careers--my husband was one of them. He withdrew from, or failed out of, three schools. Three! When he finally felt he was ready to go back, after a decent working life, he was a much more driven student. He received significant financial aid as a transfer student, redid all but the last two years of school, and graduated college magna cum laude.
Sometimes letting something go for now is the best choice. It doesn't mean it has to be permanent, but if he's digging himself deeper in debt, there's no reason to keep going on this kind of endless treadmill. At the very least, if he's thinking of changing his major, he might as well apply to other, more affordable schools as a transfer student.
(And seriously, is this the only class he's failed? Are you sure? Because I feel . . . skeptical of that. Usually, you'd only encounter this kind of resistance from administrators if you have a sub-passing GPA, etc. If it is the only class, he might look into, say, changing his concentration within his major so that this course isn't required. But really, you should probably let him quit.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:24 PM on January 13, 2011 [6 favorites]
A friend of mine (no, really. A friend) was in a sort of similar situation. He'd failed one of his physics requirements (twice) and the physics program finally lost patience and told him to find a new major. He was able to transfer to a different major, philosophy, that had no pre-reqs. He took the offending class again, got his passing grade, and transferred back to physics one semester before he graduated (it was actually even more complicated than that, but I'll spare you the details).
The point is, reapplying to a different program of study doesn't have to result in extending your stay at university.
There are any number of reasons why this might not work, but it's worth a shot.
It really was a friend. Honest
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:25 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
The point is, reapplying to a different program of study doesn't have to result in extending your stay at university.
There are any number of reasons why this might not work, but it's worth a shot.
It really was a friend. Honest
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:25 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
He tried appealing, but his advisor and the department head did not cooperate or have much sympathy for him.
If that is the case, I suspect there is way more to the story than your friend's just having a hard time with the course material and failing the course for that reason alone. Your friend will probably have to finish his degree somewhere else. The Dean of Students might be of help, but if even the advisor is against him there must be something else going on.
I'd just take those three classes as quickly as possible wherever possible, get the degree from wherever and move on. It doesn't really matter which institution grants the degree in my opinion. I'm a professor, for what it is worth.
posted by vincele at 3:28 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
If that is the case, I suspect there is way more to the story than your friend's just having a hard time with the course material and failing the course for that reason alone. Your friend will probably have to finish his degree somewhere else. The Dean of Students might be of help, but if even the advisor is against him there must be something else going on.
I'd just take those three classes as quickly as possible wherever possible, get the degree from wherever and move on. It doesn't really matter which institution grants the degree in my opinion. I'm a professor, for what it is worth.
posted by vincele at 3:28 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is there any way to take the required class at a different university and transfer it back in to satisfy the requirement?
posted by just.good.enough at 5:58 PM on January 13 [+] [!] No other comments.
this is called being a transient student and most schools have a procedure to accommodate it.
posted by toodleydoodley at 3:40 PM on January 13, 2011
posted by just.good.enough at 5:58 PM on January 13 [+] [!] No other comments.
this is called being a transient student and most schools have a procedure to accommodate it.
posted by toodleydoodley at 3:40 PM on January 13, 2011
Clarification: while the Dean of Students may be helpful in some situations, the friend will likely need to go see an academic dean. Their titles and functions may differ at various schools, but the deans are typically school- or college- wide advisers (so: above the department level) whose job is, as my deanery friend says, "to decide who lives or dies." They're the people who not only kick people out but bring them back in.
Their concerns will be the same as whatever your friend will face. They want to know that he has figured out why he failed, they want to know that he's dealing with it, and they want to know that it won't happen again. If he does another program, or tries to get this class again, can he answer that?
The thing he will likely have issues with is the residency requirement, which states that the last X credit hours (typically around 30, or two to three full-time semesters) must be taken at the college or university from which you graduate. However, not every school has this requirement, particularly if you are in some sort of distance program.
Another option (again, this would be slightly odd, but who knows): get someone in another department to approve an individual major, with a different class sequence.
Basically, he has options. They may be weird, and they may take some finagling at a time when he feels most discouraged, but he has options. It sounds like he could use a little time off now, though, just to cool down, figure things out and get his brain back on track. But he's way closer than many people ever get.
If you'd like some more direct assistance (which may or may not help your friend, in his unique situation, but I'm very familiar with different types of colleges and universities), feel free to MeMail me.
posted by Madamina at 3:48 PM on January 13, 2011
Their concerns will be the same as whatever your friend will face. They want to know that he has figured out why he failed, they want to know that he's dealing with it, and they want to know that it won't happen again. If he does another program, or tries to get this class again, can he answer that?
The thing he will likely have issues with is the residency requirement, which states that the last X credit hours (typically around 30, or two to three full-time semesters) must be taken at the college or university from which you graduate. However, not every school has this requirement, particularly if you are in some sort of distance program.
Another option (again, this would be slightly odd, but who knows): get someone in another department to approve an individual major, with a different class sequence.
Basically, he has options. They may be weird, and they may take some finagling at a time when he feels most discouraged, but he has options. It sounds like he could use a little time off now, though, just to cool down, figure things out and get his brain back on track. But he's way closer than many people ever get.
If you'd like some more direct assistance (which may or may not help your friend, in his unique situation, but I'm very familiar with different types of colleges and universities), feel free to MeMail me.
posted by Madamina at 3:48 PM on January 13, 2011
As you said, he's American, so he will eventually finish college if he actually wants to. He has infinite chances with this sort of thing, if not from that particular university, then from the satellite campus of a state university, if not next year then a few years from now when he's more motivated and organized.
I'm actually surprised that he's "kicked out" of college. Where I went to school, if you failed a semester, you couldn't register for the next semester, but they'd pretty much always take you back if you were willing and able to keep taking classes in the hopes of eventually graduating.
posted by deanc at 3:58 PM on January 13, 2011
I'm actually surprised that he's "kicked out" of college. Where I went to school, if you failed a semester, you couldn't register for the next semester, but they'd pretty much always take you back if you were willing and able to keep taking classes in the hopes of eventually graduating.
posted by deanc at 3:58 PM on January 13, 2011
I'd just take those three classes as quickly as possible wherever possible, get the degree from wherever and move on. It doesn't really matter which institution grants the degree in my opinion. I'm a professor, for what it is worth.
Yes, but most schools won't let him transfer all his credits and then graduate him with their name on his degree after only one part-time semester. In fact, I can't think of a single school that would do this. Many won't let you transfer with anything more than 2 years of credit or will require you to finish a minimum number of your final credits at their school, so this idea won't work.
posted by BlooPen at 3:58 PM on January 13, 2011
Yes, but most schools won't let him transfer all his credits and then graduate him with their name on his degree after only one part-time semester. In fact, I can't think of a single school that would do this. Many won't let you transfer with anything more than 2 years of credit or will require you to finish a minimum number of your final credits at their school, so this idea won't work.
posted by BlooPen at 3:58 PM on January 13, 2011
BlooPen: You're totally right. I realized that as soon as I posted.
It still might be the guy's only option. If he's screwed up this badly though, he probably should just leave school for a while right now as someone else above suggested. I doubt this one class is his only problem.
posted by vincele at 4:12 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
It still might be the guy's only option. If he's screwed up this badly though, he probably should just leave school for a while right now as someone else above suggested. I doubt this one class is his only problem.
posted by vincele at 4:12 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
He should talk with a guidance counselor about his options.
One option might be to enter into some kind of treatment program -- perhaps remedial education or mental health -- to show proof that he can do better when he goes back. I'd hope the school and the department would be more than willing to let him back in if he goes to them with a plan.
posted by lesli212 at 4:32 PM on January 13, 2011
One option might be to enter into some kind of treatment program -- perhaps remedial education or mental health -- to show proof that he can do better when he goes back. I'd hope the school and the department would be more than willing to let him back in if he goes to them with a plan.
posted by lesli212 at 4:32 PM on January 13, 2011
I had a friend who was also kicked out of his major because he failed a required class twice. He changed majors and got a degree in something else, though he probably spent at least 7 years as a full-time student in undergrad as a result of this.
Your friend's options are probably this:
1) Change majors at the current school, preferably one that has a lot of overlapping required classes with the program he must leave. Finish that program. Graduate.
2) Attempt to transfer to the same major that he failed out of, but at a different school. Will have to meet residency hours requirements (i.e. X# of hours at the degree-granting university in order to get a degree from there). This could be harder because he will have to be accepted by another university for a major in which he has demonstrated a failure to succeed in at another school.
I guess it boils down to figuring out which option requires the least number of additional hours/classes in order to get a degree. Not to be a jerk, but outside of some kind of outside factors (emotional stress, life changes, financial strain), if he's failed a core class for the major twice, he may just not be cut out for that line of study/work. The changing majors thing might be a better approach if he just can't grasp the material for his program.
posted by elpea at 4:34 PM on January 13, 2011
Your friend's options are probably this:
1) Change majors at the current school, preferably one that has a lot of overlapping required classes with the program he must leave. Finish that program. Graduate.
2) Attempt to transfer to the same major that he failed out of, but at a different school. Will have to meet residency hours requirements (i.e. X# of hours at the degree-granting university in order to get a degree from there). This could be harder because he will have to be accepted by another university for a major in which he has demonstrated a failure to succeed in at another school.
I guess it boils down to figuring out which option requires the least number of additional hours/classes in order to get a degree. Not to be a jerk, but outside of some kind of outside factors (emotional stress, life changes, financial strain), if he's failed a core class for the major twice, he may just not be cut out for that line of study/work. The changing majors thing might be a better approach if he just can't grasp the material for his program.
posted by elpea at 4:34 PM on January 13, 2011
From what I have seen others do, colleges will be super lenient until you blew your second chance. He blew his. Clearly, he is not up to handling college right now, 3 units to go or not. I think at the very least, he should take a break from school for awhile.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:07 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:07 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
Unless he can get some satisfaction with a sympathetic dean as others have suggested then there are no easy fixes for this. But just because there isn't an easy fix, doesn't mean that there isn't any fix or that the only solution is getting into even more debt. If he has some learning disability or just poor study habits, then he'd simply be throwing good money after bad so I agree with others that perhaps the best solution right now is to quit.
I know that jobs are thin on the ground right now and that it will be harder to find something without a degree, but if he simply wants a B.A./B.S. at this point to have something to show for his debt and a foot up on the ladder to increase his chances at getting jobs there are some alternatives that he might want to explore. For example, does he live or could he move to an area where there are a lot of colleges? Could he try to find some entry level position at a school that offers tuition remission? I finished my B.A. for free at a good private school by working full time and using their tuition remission benefits to take evening classes. I was able to transfer 2 years from my previous full-time college study. I had a low stress, entry level administrative assistant gig and was able to take 3 courses some semesters to speed up the process (I had to pay for one class and got the other two for free) and finish up in an additional 2 1/2 years by also taking summer classes. I went on to a great grad school despite having finished my degree in a less rigorous extension school program. I know other people who've done the same thing. And it might be a stretch for him if he was having problems with his studies while going to school full-time, but depending on what his problems were, he might be one of those people who actually benefits from more structure and less free time to waste or procrastinate.
Also extension schools, in addition to being cheaper (whether or not you're affiliated with them and getting tuition remission) often have few required courses than the full-time equivalent majors at the same university. If he can't get a job at a university, perhaps he can find some other work that will provide him with enough to live on and a little extra for school and still go the extension school or community college route. And if he has to take some time to save some money, it might be just the time that he needs to get serious about school. If his problem is not that he's goofing off, but he truly has a learning disability, or he came up through a bad school system that did not provide him with the basics, some colleges offer programs for remedial students and he should not be embarrassed about taking advantage of those programs. Perhaps he just needs a one semester course on study skills or a more basic breakdown of the material in the course that he failed twice.
I know that he probably feels a bit demoralized now and depressed about the situation and his debt but it's not all or nothing. His only choices are not never finish college or go into massive amounts of debts. There are workarounds but they will take more effort on his part and perhaps a bit more time than he'd hoped or planned for.
posted by kaybdc at 7:47 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know that jobs are thin on the ground right now and that it will be harder to find something without a degree, but if he simply wants a B.A./B.S. at this point to have something to show for his debt and a foot up on the ladder to increase his chances at getting jobs there are some alternatives that he might want to explore. For example, does he live or could he move to an area where there are a lot of colleges? Could he try to find some entry level position at a school that offers tuition remission? I finished my B.A. for free at a good private school by working full time and using their tuition remission benefits to take evening classes. I was able to transfer 2 years from my previous full-time college study. I had a low stress, entry level administrative assistant gig and was able to take 3 courses some semesters to speed up the process (I had to pay for one class and got the other two for free) and finish up in an additional 2 1/2 years by also taking summer classes. I went on to a great grad school despite having finished my degree in a less rigorous extension school program. I know other people who've done the same thing. And it might be a stretch for him if he was having problems with his studies while going to school full-time, but depending on what his problems were, he might be one of those people who actually benefits from more structure and less free time to waste or procrastinate.
Also extension schools, in addition to being cheaper (whether or not you're affiliated with them and getting tuition remission) often have few required courses than the full-time equivalent majors at the same university. If he can't get a job at a university, perhaps he can find some other work that will provide him with enough to live on and a little extra for school and still go the extension school or community college route. And if he has to take some time to save some money, it might be just the time that he needs to get serious about school. If his problem is not that he's goofing off, but he truly has a learning disability, or he came up through a bad school system that did not provide him with the basics, some colleges offer programs for remedial students and he should not be embarrassed about taking advantage of those programs. Perhaps he just needs a one semester course on study skills or a more basic breakdown of the material in the course that he failed twice.
I know that he probably feels a bit demoralized now and depressed about the situation and his debt but it's not all or nothing. His only choices are not never finish college or go into massive amounts of debts. There are workarounds but they will take more effort on his part and perhaps a bit more time than he'd hoped or planned for.
posted by kaybdc at 7:47 PM on January 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
First of all, he should speak in person to the Deans --- both the academic deans and the dean of students. Preferably he'd get them both in the same room at the same time, but that's probably not going to happen.
It is likely that he won't be able to come back right away. He should anticipate maybe taking a break for monetary reasons, getting his head back in order, and resolving any of those matters that caused him to fail the class twice (personal, professional, or academic). If he can demonstrate that he understands the gravity of the situation and has a plan for while he is out of school that will make him a better student when he comes back, then they may be willing to grant him a leave of absence instead of kicking him out completely.
But he really needs to start communicating with the appropriate offices yesterday. He should be on the phone right now making appointments.
But he should also be prepared for things not going his way --- failing the same class twice is not a good sign.
I had one friend who had a host of problems that interfered with his graduate studies immensely. He was administratively kicked out of the program and then "readmitted," so his second transcript was distinct and separate from his first. It meant he had to retake a bunch of classes, but he earned his Masters and went on to be in an elite Ph.D. program. Undergrad programs tend to work differently, but it's possible there's another solution out there.
He will not have been the first student to whom this has happened. And if he gets another chance at this program, he damn well better pass that course.
As others have said, he may be able to switch his major, but that may require extra classes. Maybe not as many as he expects. He can always meet with an academic advisor to see his chances at that.
posted by zizzle at 8:05 AM on January 14, 2011
It is likely that he won't be able to come back right away. He should anticipate maybe taking a break for monetary reasons, getting his head back in order, and resolving any of those matters that caused him to fail the class twice (personal, professional, or academic). If he can demonstrate that he understands the gravity of the situation and has a plan for while he is out of school that will make him a better student when he comes back, then they may be willing to grant him a leave of absence instead of kicking him out completely.
But he really needs to start communicating with the appropriate offices yesterday. He should be on the phone right now making appointments.
But he should also be prepared for things not going his way --- failing the same class twice is not a good sign.
I had one friend who had a host of problems that interfered with his graduate studies immensely. He was administratively kicked out of the program and then "readmitted," so his second transcript was distinct and separate from his first. It meant he had to retake a bunch of classes, but he earned his Masters and went on to be in an elite Ph.D. program. Undergrad programs tend to work differently, but it's possible there's another solution out there.
He will not have been the first student to whom this has happened. And if he gets another chance at this program, he damn well better pass that course.
As others have said, he may be able to switch his major, but that may require extra classes. Maybe not as many as he expects. He can always meet with an academic advisor to see his chances at that.
posted by zizzle at 8:05 AM on January 14, 2011
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posted by just.good.enough at 2:58 PM on January 13, 2011