My precious!

November 29, 2010 7:18 PM

Is it okay to haggle for the price of used jewelry? Specifically, a $35,000 engagement ring?

This is about a platinum 1.8 carat, F color, VVS2 Tiffany Lucida diamond ring that is listed by a local estate sales jeweler. The ring retails for $49,000 new.

I just don't know whether it's okay to go into the store and make an offer for the ring. Would haggling in an estate jewelry store even be considered acceptable? If not, how much should I state that I am willing to pay? I have no idea how the pricing works (other than the fact that Tiffany is even more overpriced than the typical overpriced diamond).

Also, if I have the seller ship the ring to another state, would that save me the 9.5% sales tax in my state? I can afford the ring either way, but any significant savings would be nice.

I am not interested in hearing about why I shouldn't buy the ring.

posted by anonymous to Shopping (18 answers total)

Haggle away. That's part of the deal

I think you are paying a lot for that ring at 35k. BlueNile is selling Asscher's in that size and clarity for less than 20k. A Lucida is a flavor of Asscher. If you get a rec for a diamond guy you can maybe beat that by 10% or so. A Platinum setting is at most a few K. Diamonds are a commodity - don't pay more for a blue box.

The sales tax thing is dodgy, but many people I know have done it.
posted by JPD at 7:30 PM on November 29, 2010

You can give yourself permission to negotiate in this situations, even though it might not be normative. If you try to bargain, the worst thing that can happen is you'll be a little embarrassed and pay full price. You might also save thousands of dollars by haggling over the price. I think it's worth risking a moment of embarrassment for a chance at a few thousand dollars.

I'd speak to other jewelers and spend some time learning how engagement rings are priced before you set your first offer. Ideally, you want to be able to explain why the price you're quoting is appropriate.

To answer your other question: I know one or two people who have shipped rings out of state to avoid the sales tax. I have no idea whether this is legal or not.
posted by eisenkr at 7:31 PM on November 29, 2010

I think that whenever the price tag on a single item contains 4 or more digits, you have the right/ability/opportunity to have that discussion. You may or may not get anywhere with the discussion, but you can certainly bring it up without feeling stingy.

I think your would have a stronger negotiating stance if you had some form of money in hand, (a limited amount of money). So you walk in with a 30k cashier's check and just say, "I brought this, and was hoping we could work out a deal. I can't pay any more, but I will gladly shake your hand now and make this happen if you are willing."

If they would ship, I think you might be able to do that to dodge taxes. I think it may be illegal, but the chances you get caught are pretty slim. Shipping will be tough if you are buying it in a store like that though. If you did this, you may have to pretend that you are a employee of the actual purchaser and you were "just paid to come here and offer this deal, if the deal is not taken, you are to return to your boss empty-handed". I am sure you could cook up some sort of story...
posted by milqman at 7:33 PM on November 29, 2010

Of course it is OK to haggle over the price of jewelry, used or new. In fact, it is OK to haggle over the price of ANYTHING. In some cases, such as the subscription fee for MetaFilter, there is little or no margin and so the answer may be no. In the case of jewelry, the value of which is based minimally on materials & workmanship (though fine jewelry does have significantly more cost there than the mass produced Kay or JB Robinson chain) and mostly on the supposed scarcity of the good itself, there is generally a large margin available for the seller to deal and the buyer to negotiate.

As far as the sales tax, the seller will probably charge you the sales tax in the seller's state, not yours. Internet sales are generally figured on the receivers state if the seller has a physical presence there, which is why catalog sellers like Eddie Bauer will charge you your state's sales tax. But the estate jeweler will probably only have a physical presence in their physical location. There are a few with multi-state locations, but surely not as many as Eddie Bauer. So, IANAL or a tax authority, but I believe this to be true from my experience.
posted by beelzbubba at 7:35 PM on November 29, 2010

Oh yeah...whatever it gets appraised for...you should be able to get it for 35-50% of that, based on your negotiating skills.

this is absolutely the truth.
posted by JPD at 7:38 PM on November 29, 2010

I am not sure why you wouldn't either ask about the price or make a lower offer. I have purchased jewelry in NYC from small high end shops and always ask if that is the best they can do. I never denigrate the item I want to buy, I simply tell them how much I like the piece, but I am uncomfortable paying that price. The usual response is, "What price would you be comfortable paying?" I then give them my best price and hope they agree. One time, in order to lower the total price paid I did have an item shipped to New Jersey. I have no idea if it was a legal means of avoiding sales tax. The person to whom I was giving the piece did live in NJ, but not at the address to which it was shipped. I walked out of one place that offered to ship an empty box to NJ if I wanted to put the rings in my pocket. Felt too scuzzy and made me wonder about what other scuzzy things that guy was up to.

To me, the whole key to how haggling works is if you can determine the top price you are willing to pay and if you are willing to walk away from the item. In this case, it sounds as if you are willing to pay the full price if need be. You will have a difficult time getting a lower price.
posted by AugustWest at 7:39 PM on November 29, 2010

I can't think of anything where its not ok to haggle. The seller is certainly under no obligation to bargain with you of course, but you only lose out by not trying. I think in general, many people are (in my area - nyc) more used to haggling over the price of services than products but I can't imagine what there might be to lose.

And yes, you'd have a different tax situation with shipping to another state.
posted by blaneyphoto at 7:42 PM on November 29, 2010

Haggling over the price of anything with a list price of $35,000 is absolutely acceptable.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:17 PM on November 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Since the ring is so valuable, have you gotten it appraised by a third (independent) party? That could give you some idea of how low/high an offer you should make.
posted by bluefly at 8:17 PM on November 29, 2010

"Also, if I have the seller ship the ring to another state, would that save me the 9.5% sales tax in my state?"

Maybe. But you're legally responsible for paying that 9.5% sales tax to your state YOURSELF (it's called a "use tax") when you buy items out of state or without sales tax. 99% of the time the state doesn't really give a shit when you buy from amazon ... they'd rather go after amazon than go after everyone in the state who spent $25 there. But when you buy cars, boats, and certain luxury items, states often care a LOT. Car dealers will ABSOLUTELY send your paperwork to the appropriate states, because the states come after them if they don't, and if you fail to pay, you will get nailed.

I don't know whether estate jewelry stores care/do paperwork for big-ticket sales/are required to report big-ticket sales. I'm sure it varies by state. But, yes, you're legally responsible for that 9.5% sales tax. And buying in your home state and shipping out of state to avoid sales tax is tax fraud. (Buying out of your home state and failing to pay use tax is just failure to pay taxes. They can still come after you for what you owe, plus interest, plus auditing fun, but it's usually not a crime.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:33 PM on November 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

If it is a real Tiffany's Lucida diamond it should have the serial number in the band. Verify with Tiffanys that it is the real thing.

As far as haggling, go for it. The worst that can happen is they will say no. The best is that you will save money, potentially a lot. Approach it in a non-confrontational manner and be polite.

Shipping out of state to avoid taxes sounds sketchy. Especially for something so expensive. Personally I would not want to risk shipping, I would want to pick it up physically myself, especially so I could verify what I was buying!
posted by HMSSM at 8:44 PM on November 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

People saying it's OK to haggle over anything are completely wrong, at least in my culture. What, like restaurant meals? But obviously, this situation allows, nay demands haggling.
posted by wilful at 9:05 PM on November 29, 2010

Words my mother lives and profits by:

"Is this price the best you can do?"

Note the order of the words carefully. It's not "Is this the best price you can do?" or "What's the best price you can do?" 'Best' has nothing to do with the price - it's an adjective for the salesperson. It needs to sound like a combination of pity, contempt, and disappointment with just the slightest touch of a challenge to do better.

When a counter offer comes, stay silent. When another comes, say 'No.' When they ask what you want to pay, say 'Not that'. When they say you mustn't really be interested, say 'I want you to sell it to me.' When they won't budge any more on price, ask 'What else can you do to convince me?'
posted by obiwanwasabi at 9:33 PM on November 29, 2010 [49 favorites]

I always have to remind myself that haggling is fine in cases like this because what's the worst that can happen -- they don't budge and you can still buy at the asking price. It's different when there's competition for an item, of course.
posted by thorny at 12:09 AM on November 30, 2010

Obi's stay silent advice is a key, key part of haggling. Ask for their best price (or the best they can do) and then shut up. Let an uncomfortable silence lapse. People rush to fill silences like these, trust me. My husband worked in sales for years and said the silence trick is one of the best negotiating tactics.

Ps we bought my engagement ring at an antique shop, and totally haggled. It's very okay.
posted by ukdanae at 3:23 AM on November 30, 2010

"Retail" prices on jewelry are fantasy numbers. Take a look on ebay. You'll see rings with thousand-dollar "retail" prices going for a hundred. A lot of the time stuff on ebay sells for ten percent of its fantasy "retail" price. I would make sure this is real, first of all, but second, aim for well under 35k. I'm not going to try to dissuade you from buying it, but man, retail on jewelry is a huge scam.
posted by Slinga at 6:07 AM on November 30, 2010

Saying that you can haggle on "anything" is probably overstating the case....try that tactic with the cashier at Target and you will be get blank stares. With that said, jewelery is one of those things that you can definitely haggle on. I'd say as a rule of thumb, anytime you are dealing with a salesperson who is compensated on commission, there is a high likelihood that haggling is not only tolerated, but expected.
posted by mmascolino at 6:54 AM on November 30, 2010

I've sold high-end Estate Jewellery and managed an auction house jewellery department in my past - though I am not your Jeweller.

It is okay, and is probably even expected.

Estate Jewellery doesn't mean old - it just means resale. First, find out if it's on consignment - if it's been paid for and is now being sold because the marriage didn't work out (Lucida's aren't all that old) they're only hoping to recoup as much as possible. If there's a balance remaining to be paid somewhere, they want that covered at least, and some back. If the store bought it from the former owner outright, the store wants its money back and some profit as soon as possible - nobody likes their money tied up in stock. The store can be hoping to make anything from two thirds more than they paid for it, to very little in hopes of making a prestigious sale of a desirable item or as a favour for a friend.

What you should ask for (perhaps from an independent, accredited appraiser) aside from the insurance/replacement value is a Fair Market Value appraisal, and consider that when making your offer. That is what a willing buyer would pay a willing seller in an open market with all conditions known and no urgency to sell. That may actually be what has determined the price they're asking. Tiffany jewellery (especially with original boxes and bags and papers) has a prestige value - hard to determine, but it does command more than the exact same item without the stamp and blue box on the the secondary market. That's why they're successful on every level. Please note though - the Lucida cut mimics an older cut, and is decidedly less "sparkly" because it doesn't refract light as well. The value in this stone is that it's a Tiffany's Lucida - not that it's a brilliant cut 1.8 carat, F color, VVS2. You want all the bells and whistles that originally came with it.

Also, please remember - the seller collects tax - they don't charge it. It has to be paid somewhere, or it has to be hidden somehow. The seller (as we often did) would still have to show tax on the receipt, if the item has been inventoried, so it's often written backwards - the price includes the tax that still has to be paid, so the seller's take is that much lower. Shipping is risky, and the insurance you'd pay would likely negate the savings. In fact, when we used to address this issue, we had to point out that once the store sold the item, it was no longer covered under the stores's insurance, and until the owner took possession, his insurance might not cover it either. You might want to check that.

Cash helps in this instance too - credit cards cost stores a percentage of the sale, and provide a record. Can you ask, "Hey, if I were able to come there with cash, what would be your very best price?"

Last thing - "haggle" is such a harsh word. You want to "come to an agreement" or "conduct a transaction" at an "agreeable price". In estate jewellery, the items are what they are, but prices and values are fluid because the ultimate value of any item is what someone will pay for it.
posted by peagood at 7:28 AM on November 30, 2010 [3 favorites]