Am I a bad person for not wanting this?
November 23, 2010 10:37 AM Subscribe
My wife says that if she wants to move, and I don't, that I'm not putting her first. She says she wants proof that I would do anything for her because relationships are based on compromise. I feel so bad and I don't know what to do (details inside).
She's 28 and I'm 36, together for about six years. We bought a house together about two years ago. We got married at the end of last year and for a while I was really, really happy. She's loyal, has a great sense of humour, and is creative.
We've lived in our city throughout our relationship. My family, friends and job are here. She is not especially close to her family, who live in another city. My job is quite specialised - I'm well paid, funded and respected where I am, but it wouldn't be very easy to move elsewhere. She has a managerial position in government, with a good salary. If she wants something, she gets it (and I don't say anything). Expensive haircuts, clothes, a new laptop, tech gizmos. I rarely buy anything, partly because I remember what it was like when my family had nothing. Both our salaries go into the same account and as far as I'm concerned what's mine is hers.
About five months ago our relationship really started going downhill. In the past when things have gone well, they've been brilliant. She does frequently pick me up on little things but I suppose I've just gotten used to it and would rather swallow it than start a fight. About a month after we got married I mentioned that my approach to conflict resolution would be a concilliatory one. If we had a fight, I'd swallow it, or say, "I love you babe, let's work it out". She replied that her attitude would be the exact opposite, that she would pick me up on things if she didn't like them. She said she wanted things to be just right if she was going to be in it forever. She has since called my concilliatory attitude 'condescending'.
She says that she can't get the job she really wants when we're living in the city we're in. I've said I don't want to stay here forever, but I just can't leave yet. She wants to work for a big design firm, though in the time we've been together she's variously wanted to do a Masters degree, write a book, open a restaurant, start an invitation printing business, write a movie screenplay, start an online business, and others. I've supported all of these because I think she could do great things if she focused on one. She's very creative. But she tends not to stick to one thing. She says she doesn't want to choose just one, she wants to 'save the world' (for example by running an orphanage in Russia).
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy. I've asked her what we would do if I couldn't get a job and she says that I should be prepared to do no matter what. She says that she wants proof that I love her in the form of some compromise for her.
Then there's the fighting. We seem to fight every day, and we fight in different ways. I don't enjoy fighting at all and would rather discuss things calmly or write them down. But she snaps very quickly at minor things: her first resort is to get angry and raise her voice. She can get very nasty when she fights. I feel very upset after our fights and so tend to be reserved for an hour or so afterwards. She says that I should get over it faster (and if I don't, I'm prolonging the fight). She also says that if I agreed to move we wouldn't fight any more.
There are also double standards. If I do something she doesn't like, she tells me (e.g. not opening the mail when it arrives). But if she does exactly the same thing, and I mention it, she says "if it bothers you then say something, but if you're only mentioning it because it's a double standard then that's not right". For example if I leave my shoes in the hallway, she gets mad and she says that this is another example of me not listening to her and not putting her first by doing what she asks. The thing is, she leaves her shoes in the hallway too. If I mention the double standard, she gets mad and tells me I'm trying to start a fight. Things that are OK on day one and day two are suddenly not OK on day 3, and I get in trouble for these.
So tell me MeFi. Am I just being silly? Is it true that by not wanting to leave my job, friends and family that I'm putting her last? I worry that I should be giving up these things for her. I just can't or don't want to imagine being with anyone else. I love her so much but I don't know what to do. Thank you for reading, I'm sorry it's so long.
Throwaway email: tesadandconfused@gmail.com
She's 28 and I'm 36, together for about six years. We bought a house together about two years ago. We got married at the end of last year and for a while I was really, really happy. She's loyal, has a great sense of humour, and is creative.
We've lived in our city throughout our relationship. My family, friends and job are here. She is not especially close to her family, who live in another city. My job is quite specialised - I'm well paid, funded and respected where I am, but it wouldn't be very easy to move elsewhere. She has a managerial position in government, with a good salary. If she wants something, she gets it (and I don't say anything). Expensive haircuts, clothes, a new laptop, tech gizmos. I rarely buy anything, partly because I remember what it was like when my family had nothing. Both our salaries go into the same account and as far as I'm concerned what's mine is hers.
About five months ago our relationship really started going downhill. In the past when things have gone well, they've been brilliant. She does frequently pick me up on little things but I suppose I've just gotten used to it and would rather swallow it than start a fight. About a month after we got married I mentioned that my approach to conflict resolution would be a concilliatory one. If we had a fight, I'd swallow it, or say, "I love you babe, let's work it out". She replied that her attitude would be the exact opposite, that she would pick me up on things if she didn't like them. She said she wanted things to be just right if she was going to be in it forever. She has since called my concilliatory attitude 'condescending'.
She says that she can't get the job she really wants when we're living in the city we're in. I've said I don't want to stay here forever, but I just can't leave yet. She wants to work for a big design firm, though in the time we've been together she's variously wanted to do a Masters degree, write a book, open a restaurant, start an invitation printing business, write a movie screenplay, start an online business, and others. I've supported all of these because I think she could do great things if she focused on one. She's very creative. But she tends not to stick to one thing. She says she doesn't want to choose just one, she wants to 'save the world' (for example by running an orphanage in Russia).
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy. I've asked her what we would do if I couldn't get a job and she says that I should be prepared to do no matter what. She says that she wants proof that I love her in the form of some compromise for her.
Then there's the fighting. We seem to fight every day, and we fight in different ways. I don't enjoy fighting at all and would rather discuss things calmly or write them down. But she snaps very quickly at minor things: her first resort is to get angry and raise her voice. She can get very nasty when she fights. I feel very upset after our fights and so tend to be reserved for an hour or so afterwards. She says that I should get over it faster (and if I don't, I'm prolonging the fight). She also says that if I agreed to move we wouldn't fight any more.
There are also double standards. If I do something she doesn't like, she tells me (e.g. not opening the mail when it arrives). But if she does exactly the same thing, and I mention it, she says "if it bothers you then say something, but if you're only mentioning it because it's a double standard then that's not right". For example if I leave my shoes in the hallway, she gets mad and she says that this is another example of me not listening to her and not putting her first by doing what she asks. The thing is, she leaves her shoes in the hallway too. If I mention the double standard, she gets mad and tells me I'm trying to start a fight. Things that are OK on day one and day two are suddenly not OK on day 3, and I get in trouble for these.
So tell me MeFi. Am I just being silly? Is it true that by not wanting to leave my job, friends and family that I'm putting her last? I worry that I should be giving up these things for her. I just can't or don't want to imagine being with anyone else. I love her so much but I don't know what to do. Thank you for reading, I'm sorry it's so long.
Throwaway email: tesadandconfused@gmail.com
This post was deleted for the following reason: at poster's request -- mathowie
You are not being just silly. She really sounds unrealistic and demanding, and it seems as if the two of you don't have any effective way to communicate with each other. While a certain amount of compromise should be expected in relationships, I don't see much of an equal compromise in you giving up the things you value and appreciate to satisfy her spontaneously changing wishes and desires. I think couples counselling would be beneficial for the two of you.
posted by Meagan at 10:43 AM on November 23, 2010
posted by Meagan at 10:43 AM on November 23, 2010
Would I want to leave my job, friends and family for someone who acted like that with me every day? No.
posted by Melismata at 10:43 AM on November 23, 2010 [34 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 10:43 AM on November 23, 2010 [34 favorites]
There's a lot to unpack here, but no, of course you are not putting her last by not wanting to leave your job, family, and friends. Because part of that is, probably, acting like a grownup and not wanting to leave a career for something that doesn't even exist yet. Tell her that if she finds a job in a big design firm, then you will cross that bridge when you come to it. and in the meantime, consider getting some counseling to help you communicate with each other in a more effective manner.
posted by dpx.mfx at 10:43 AM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by dpx.mfx at 10:43 AM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
You guys have very different communication styles, and it doesn't sound like they are being resolved by the two of you alone. Time to see a couples counselor to work on your communication.
In a more immediate sense, I hear a lot of disrespect coming from her (of course, I'm only hearing one side of this, it may well cut both ways). She doesn't respect your choices, your style of communication, your desires and preferences. I don't know too many couples in which one would unilaterally declare that they are moving and that their partner is obliged to go with them, immediately and without discussion. It even sounds like you're willing to move, but that you want a good job to move to, is that correct?
You need to figure out what that disrespect is rooted in so that you can work through it with her, and pretty much the only way to do that is to ask her, and to be mentally prepared for a painful answer.
posted by zug at 10:46 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
In a more immediate sense, I hear a lot of disrespect coming from her (of course, I'm only hearing one side of this, it may well cut both ways). She doesn't respect your choices, your style of communication, your desires and preferences. I don't know too many couples in which one would unilaterally declare that they are moving and that their partner is obliged to go with them, immediately and without discussion. It even sounds like you're willing to move, but that you want a good job to move to, is that correct?
You need to figure out what that disrespect is rooted in so that you can work through it with her, and pretty much the only way to do that is to ask her, and to be mentally prepared for a painful answer.
posted by zug at 10:46 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Does your wife have an idea of where she might like to move? Does she have contacts, has she started to look for jobs? It seems that a lot of the discussion you two are having is theoretical when you should be working on building the life you both want in the reality. Perhaps there's a city out there where you could both find the work you want. Can the two of you start to look at things together? Maybe you don't want to move to Russia to build an orphanage, but would you move 2 hours away? 4? 6? It's not an all-or-nothing game; you two should be able to bang something out that works decently well for the both of you. If your answer to her desire to make changes to her life is, no, sorry, have to stay right here in this spot forever, I can see why that would be frustrating for her.
And I will agree with the other posters who say that couples counseling could be very helpful.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:48 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
And I will agree with the other posters who say that couples counseling could be very helpful.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:48 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
She says she wants proof that I would do anything for her because relationships are based on compromise
That's not compromise though, is it? A lot of your post reads (to me) as her saying "I want what I want, and you must want what I want."
posted by Dipsomaniac at 10:51 AM on November 23, 2010 [5 favorites]
That's not compromise though, is it? A lot of your post reads (to me) as her saying "I want what I want, and you must want what I want."
posted by Dipsomaniac at 10:51 AM on November 23, 2010 [5 favorites]
proof that I would do anything for her because relationships are based on compromise.
Is this a (maybe not great) paraphrase of her feelings, or is this literally what she says? Because if it's really what she says/demands, it's an inherent contradiction. If you would do anything for her, then by definition, there is no real compromise in your relationship -- or, rather, she compromises nothing and you compromise everything. That's not healthy, and that's virtually the opposite of what's meant by the notion that relationships are built on compromise.
posted by scody at 10:56 AM on November 23, 2010 [7 favorites]
Is this a (maybe not great) paraphrase of her feelings, or is this literally what she says? Because if it's really what she says/demands, it's an inherent contradiction. If you would do anything for her, then by definition, there is no real compromise in your relationship -- or, rather, she compromises nothing and you compromise everything. That's not healthy, and that's virtually the opposite of what's meant by the notion that relationships are built on compromise.
posted by scody at 10:56 AM on November 23, 2010 [7 favorites]
This isn't about moving at all, is it?
Your wife doesn't seem to respect you. Hell, it doesn't sound as if she even likes you very much. If you move, you will just be putting up with more of this except in a place where you have no support system or job. Nothing will change.
"She also says that if I agreed to move we wouldn't fight any more."
Unless she has a crystal ball, this is about as certain as that novel she wants to write. The early bits of moving is nothing but stress and alienation. Imagine putting up with all you put up in an area where you have no friends, no job, no family and no support system.
You need things to change in your relationship. And I mean need in the "you're real close to things getting very, very messy" sense. Your inability to communicate without pissing one another off is a big, flashing light that says "couples therapy."
I get in trouble for these.
Short of fidelity, a grown human being should not feel like s/he is getting "in trouble" for their behavior. There are issues. They are to be dealt with with an equal amount of authority from the both of you unless there are genuine reasons -- gambling problems, etc. -- that force you to put your S.O. in direct authority over you.
posted by griphus at 10:58 AM on November 23, 2010 [14 favorites]
Your wife doesn't seem to respect you. Hell, it doesn't sound as if she even likes you very much. If you move, you will just be putting up with more of this except in a place where you have no support system or job. Nothing will change.
"She also says that if I agreed to move we wouldn't fight any more."
Unless she has a crystal ball, this is about as certain as that novel she wants to write. The early bits of moving is nothing but stress and alienation. Imagine putting up with all you put up in an area where you have no friends, no job, no family and no support system.
You need things to change in your relationship. And I mean need in the "you're real close to things getting very, very messy" sense. Your inability to communicate without pissing one another off is a big, flashing light that says "couples therapy."
I get in trouble for these.
Short of fidelity, a grown human being should not feel like s/he is getting "in trouble" for their behavior. There are issues. They are to be dealt with with an equal amount of authority from the both of you unless there are genuine reasons -- gambling problems, etc. -- that force you to put your S.O. in direct authority over you.
posted by griphus at 10:58 AM on November 23, 2010 [14 favorites]
I would also recommend going to counseling together and that you go alone if she refuses to go with you. I am not any sort of professional so I don't know what's going on but I do hear a lot of confusion and uncertainty in your question.
From what you have said it sounds like you are making reasonable and adult choices but since I don't know either of you, haven't heard her side of the story and have no training then there isn't much more that I can say. It really does sound like you are both feeling frustrated, though, and that you need to figure out a way to talk to each other about this.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:59 AM on November 23, 2010
From what you have said it sounds like you are making reasonable and adult choices but since I don't know either of you, haven't heard her side of the story and have no training then there isn't much more that I can say. It really does sound like you are both feeling frustrated, though, and that you need to figure out a way to talk to each other about this.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:59 AM on November 23, 2010
She says that she wants proof that I love her in the form of some compromise for her.
This is pretty unreasonable and I think it goes beyond the decision to move. Love is not about constantly testing your partner to see if they really care about you or not. And it's also not about becoming a martyr and making your life miserable in order to give your partner everything they want. I agree with the previous comments that you are not being silly by not deciding to move, and that you should probably try couples counseling or therapy.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:59 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is pretty unreasonable and I think it goes beyond the decision to move. Love is not about constantly testing your partner to see if they really care about you or not. And it's also not about becoming a martyr and making your life miserable in order to give your partner everything they want. I agree with the previous comments that you are not being silly by not deciding to move, and that you should probably try couples counseling or therapy.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:59 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think you wrote a very interesting letter where it seems that you are the calm/nice/rational one, but really, you do sound condescending.
I can see why she would accuse you of confusing "conciliatory" for "condescending"
(passive/aggressive, really) because it's easy to read between the lines and see how you are being just that way.
I'm wondering what her side of the story is.
Nth marriage counselor, on the hope that you're not trying to purposely paint her as the bad guy, it just looks that way from my computer screen.
posted by jbenben at 10:59 AM on November 23, 2010 [16 favorites]
I can see why she would accuse you of confusing "conciliatory" for "condescending"
(passive/aggressive, really) because it's easy to read between the lines and see how you are being just that way.
I'm wondering what her side of the story is.
Nth marriage counselor, on the hope that you're not trying to purposely paint her as the bad guy, it just looks that way from my computer screen.
posted by jbenben at 10:59 AM on November 23, 2010 [16 favorites]
You sound very unhappy. Why would you want to move this unhappy situation to a place where you wouldn't have anything else going for you?
she sounds like a very annoying (and mistaken) teacher, but at the same time she's completely immature.
Don't get me wrong. I (a wife) am a lot like her. I have crazy dreams (Opium dreams, mom used to call them) and I forget about them almost as often as I change underwear. With time, I have learnt to recognize these kinds of great ideas. I talk about them but would never sacrifice reality for them! Your wife needs perspective and a dose of humility. she needs to learn that she is also supposed to compromise, and that moving is a decision that both of you would make together, not coerce each other to do/not do.
posted by Tarumba at 11:04 AM on November 23, 2010
she sounds like a very annoying (and mistaken) teacher, but at the same time she's completely immature.
Don't get me wrong. I (a wife) am a lot like her. I have crazy dreams (Opium dreams, mom used to call them) and I forget about them almost as often as I change underwear. With time, I have learnt to recognize these kinds of great ideas. I talk about them but would never sacrifice reality for them! Your wife needs perspective and a dose of humility. she needs to learn that she is also supposed to compromise, and that moving is a decision that both of you would make together, not coerce each other to do/not do.
posted by Tarumba at 11:04 AM on November 23, 2010
Your wife, as presented in this post, sounds totally unreasonable. In fact, she sounds crazy. One of three things is going on:
1. Your wife is crazy.
2. Your relationship with your wife has deteriorated, and you're having a hard time interpreting her behavior in a way that doesn't make her seem crazy.
3. Some blend of 1 and 2.
If it's number 1, there's not much you can do. I suspect, however, that it's 2 or 3. In that case, your relationship cannot just continue the way it is. Time for some counseling.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:12 AM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
1. Your wife is crazy.
2. Your relationship with your wife has deteriorated, and you're having a hard time interpreting her behavior in a way that doesn't make her seem crazy.
3. Some blend of 1 and 2.
If it's number 1, there's not much you can do. I suspect, however, that it's 2 or 3. In that case, your relationship cannot just continue the way it is. Time for some counseling.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:12 AM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Wow. I feel really bad for you. It sounds like she's a spoiled brat and that she considers you to be her bitch. She wants you to drop a significant career and all your social connections to flit across the country so she can try to be a designer or write a novel or learn to be a bobsledder or fight ninjas or sail a pirate ship or whatever tomorrow's fantasy is?
Damn, brother. You didn't marry a woman. You married a girl. There's no excuse for her behavior.
posted by phoebus at 11:12 AM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Damn, brother. You didn't marry a woman. You married a girl. There's no excuse for her behavior.
posted by phoebus at 11:12 AM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
She's not asking for compromise, she's asking for obedience.
I don't know where that leaves you, but I just wanted to clarify that this word does not mean what she thinks it means. It does not make you a bad person to want informed decisions and actual compromises with your wife rather than blind obedience. But I think you know that. The question is, can you and your wife reach a place where you're effectively communicating your needs and feelings, such that you can make the best, healthiest decisions together? Right now it sounds like your wife is upset or troubled about something and is lashing out with crazy demands (like testing your love for her and making threats), and you don't know what her problem is so you're just looking at the surface (she wants to move, so should we move?). I agree with suggestions about that this is a good issue to bring to a marriage counselor.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:13 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't know where that leaves you, but I just wanted to clarify that this word does not mean what she thinks it means. It does not make you a bad person to want informed decisions and actual compromises with your wife rather than blind obedience. But I think you know that. The question is, can you and your wife reach a place where you're effectively communicating your needs and feelings, such that you can make the best, healthiest decisions together? Right now it sounds like your wife is upset or troubled about something and is lashing out with crazy demands (like testing your love for her and making threats), and you don't know what her problem is so you're just looking at the surface (she wants to move, so should we move?). I agree with suggestions about that this is a good issue to bring to a marriage counselor.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:13 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
A lot of your post reads (to me) as her saying "I want what I want, and you must want what I want."
Trying to sympathise from the other side, the nature of the fights suggests a fundamental frustration with her situation that material comforts don't offset, and which translates into that kind of scatterdash argumentativeness. She now sees her current location, in combination with your settledness as a big heavy anchor that is stopping her from doing what she really wants to do... even if she hasn't worked out just what that is.
She's at an age where the question of "what have I done with my life?" starts looming in a way that's largely invisible to someone in their late twenties, and so I'm going to be generous and assume that she thinks that if she hits 40 still living in your city, she's pretty much stuck there for keeps, and that's the kiss of death on her dreams, however wild and un-fleshed-out they might be.
I'm inclined to second dpx.mfx's advice to tell her to come up with a career path and relocation plan, but that's more easily said than done, and may need some third-party assistance.
posted by holgate at 11:15 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Trying to sympathise from the other side, the nature of the fights suggests a fundamental frustration with her situation that material comforts don't offset, and which translates into that kind of scatterdash argumentativeness. She now sees her current location, in combination with your settledness as a big heavy anchor that is stopping her from doing what she really wants to do... even if she hasn't worked out just what that is.
She's at an age where the question of "what have I done with my life?" starts looming in a way that's largely invisible to someone in their late twenties, and so I'm going to be generous and assume that she thinks that if she hits 40 still living in your city, she's pretty much stuck there for keeps, and that's the kiss of death on her dreams, however wild and un-fleshed-out they might be.
I'm inclined to second dpx.mfx's advice to tell her to come up with a career path and relocation plan, but that's more easily said than done, and may need some third-party assistance.
posted by holgate at 11:15 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately, you've trained your wife to believe that she will get whatever she wants. So at the slightest bit of resistance, she starts to manipulate you into doing what she wants yet again. There is no way out of this except to be "the bad guy" and assert yourself. Right now you're a doormat. I think both of you (or at least her) are going to need counseling so she can see that your refusal is not a reflection of her worth to you. Meanwhile, you need to read some books on codependency. Neither of your behavior is healthy.
posted by desjardins at 11:17 AM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 11:17 AM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
Nix that second graf: I got the ages flipped round, and that changes the dynamics a lot. She's got wanderlust of a different kind.
posted by holgate at 11:17 AM on November 23, 2010
posted by holgate at 11:17 AM on November 23, 2010
Maybe you are not telling the truth, or all of the truth. But if you are telling the truth, you might do well to consider the welcome mat at your front door. It says WELCOME right across the front. It greets every situation with the same positive message. And for it's trouble it has footprints all over it. Sometimes the mud (and worse) gets scraped off on it. If it does its job well for years and years, what happens? It gets thrown away and replaced, expressly because it did its job. So if that's what you're after, keep doing what you're doing.
posted by eccnineten at 11:17 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by eccnineten at 11:17 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
You're not a bad person for wanting to stay. Everyone's right about the communication problems.
Some telltale signs of an abusive relationship can include: when it's good, it's good. double standards. yelling. Things being ok on one day and not another. You might want to do some googling on emotionally abusive relationships. I hope things work out for you.
posted by aniola at 11:20 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Some telltale signs of an abusive relationship can include: when it's good, it's good. double standards. yelling. Things being ok on one day and not another. You might want to do some googling on emotionally abusive relationships. I hope things work out for you.
posted by aniola at 11:20 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
i just broke up with a guy like this because i couldn't cope with it. i used to make a lot of excuses for his crap, but now i am finally acknowledging the truth- he was just immature and self-serving. he would manipulate and make me feel guilty to get his way, and by the end, we were pretty much doing everything his way. now that i'm out of it, i am remembering that relationships should be an equal partnership.
i think i did the right thing by getting out, but we weren't married. in your case, i'd try counseling first if she'll agree to it. if she won't . . . that's trouble.
posted by lblair at 11:23 AM on November 23, 2010
i think i did the right thing by getting out, but we weren't married. in your case, i'd try counseling first if she'll agree to it. if she won't . . . that's trouble.
posted by lblair at 11:23 AM on November 23, 2010
From the details you've given, your wife sounds very manipulative.
In general, statements of "If you really loved me, you'd _____" are a particular sign that the request is less about what she actually wants at the moment, and more about the power dynamic.
You may not be getting beaten, but I do suspect that she is abusing you.
posted by Citrus at 11:26 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
In general, statements of "If you really loved me, you'd _____" are a particular sign that the request is less about what she actually wants at the moment, and more about the power dynamic.
You may not be getting beaten, but I do suspect that she is abusing you.
posted by Citrus at 11:26 AM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
That city to which she wants to move, does she already have friends and/or family there? Has she lived there before? Has she ever even been there?
If she has real strong reasons for going there beyond fantasies of work then you should consider it, but not for the reasons she's giving.
I agree with everyone who recommends counseling.
Good luck.
posted by mareli at 11:27 AM on November 23, 2010
If she has real strong reasons for going there beyond fantasies of work then you should consider it, but not for the reasons she's giving.
I agree with everyone who recommends counseling.
Good luck.
posted by mareli at 11:27 AM on November 23, 2010
I'll start with the main question: I worry that I should be giving up these things for her. Nope. In a good relationship, each person is happy for the good things that their SO has and doesn't try to separate the SO from good things without a really, really good reason. You should not be giving this up for her. If she had an amazing job all lined up, and had worked with you on a plan that you're comfortable with for getting a new job and keeping in touch with family and friends, then I'd say this might be reasonable. If she's asking you to move, be unemployed, and not have any plans for keeping your non-marriage relationships alive, that's unreasonable.
I agree that you are probably the calm, rational one in this relationship. And yes, things would be better if you two could have a calm talk about it.
But I'm seconding jbenben. Your post reads a bit like a story that you're telling yourself abut how right you are, so if you really do want to compromise and keep your marriage intact you should be careful that you're not constantly discrediting your wife's side of things. For instance, whenever you say something negative about her, it's presented as fact:
If she wants something, she gets it
I rarely buy anything
She does frequently pick me up on little things
If we had a fight, I'd swallow it
But she tends not to stick to one thing
But if she does exactly the same thing, and I mention it, she says "if it bothers you then say something, but if you're only mentioning it because it's a double standard then that's not right"
But when you tell her side of the stories, everything is couched with "She says," which is a way of saying "this is her side, which may not be factual:"
She says that she can't get the job she really wants.
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy.
I realize you're exercising some rhetorical style here, but I think it revealed something: it sounds like you're discrediting her version of events.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, silly, or the bad guy. But if you're going to try to work it out with her, I do advise being open to the idea that she may be right, or that your 'factual' statements are colored by your perspective. If you try to be conciliatory, but it's clear that you think she is wrong, that's not very conciliatory at all. Perhaps you don't make adjustments as often as you think, or maybe you're not as supportive as you imagine?
posted by Tehhund at 11:31 AM on November 23, 2010 [8 favorites]
I agree that you are probably the calm, rational one in this relationship. And yes, things would be better if you two could have a calm talk about it.
But I'm seconding jbenben. Your post reads a bit like a story that you're telling yourself abut how right you are, so if you really do want to compromise and keep your marriage intact you should be careful that you're not constantly discrediting your wife's side of things. For instance, whenever you say something negative about her, it's presented as fact:
If she wants something, she gets it
I rarely buy anything
She does frequently pick me up on little things
If we had a fight, I'd swallow it
But she tends not to stick to one thing
But if she does exactly the same thing, and I mention it, she says "if it bothers you then say something, but if you're only mentioning it because it's a double standard then that's not right"
But when you tell her side of the stories, everything is couched with "She says," which is a way of saying "this is her side, which may not be factual:"
She says that she can't get the job she really wants.
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy.
I realize you're exercising some rhetorical style here, but I think it revealed something: it sounds like you're discrediting her version of events.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, silly, or the bad guy. But if you're going to try to work it out with her, I do advise being open to the idea that she may be right, or that your 'factual' statements are colored by your perspective. If you try to be conciliatory, but it's clear that you think she is wrong, that's not very conciliatory at all. Perhaps you don't make adjustments as often as you think, or maybe you're not as supportive as you imagine?
posted by Tehhund at 11:31 AM on November 23, 2010 [8 favorites]
nthing that you sound reasonable. From your description I'm not understanding what she's given up that would outweigh what you give her.
You might want to get separate bank accounts. Many happily married people do this.
I think loyalty due to admiration is good and healthy, while loyalty due to obligation is usually abusive.
posted by sninctown at 11:38 AM on November 23, 2010
You might want to get separate bank accounts. Many happily married people do this.
I think loyalty due to admiration is good and healthy, while loyalty due to obligation is usually abusive.
posted by sninctown at 11:38 AM on November 23, 2010
This is a very difficult situation. I hear your agony in that last paragraph, and I am sorry for your pain. I have seen where this kind of dynamic leads. It is not good. If you are going to keep this relationship together, you will need to let go of wanting to be the good and selfless one. You also will need to develop a new respect for your own wants and needs, and a new willingness to engage with people when your preferences differ from theirs.
What you would need to do:
- value your desires and preferences
- voice your preferences and requests
- say so when you disagree with her
- learn the difference between assertive communication and aggressive (or passive-aggressive) communication
- talk openly about what actions on her end make you uncomfortable
- set and enforce limits about the behavior you will and won't tolerate
- get couples counseling or at least individual counseling
What you need to not do
- do not try to be "the good guy"
- do not try to "have patience" or "turn the other cheek"
- do not take any comfort in "being the bigger person"
- do not silently disagree
- do not think to yourself "she is being ridiculous, we'll talk about this later"
- do not give her "the silent treatment" to get back at her (if you ever find yourself doing that)
Your preferences need to be brought out and discussed as something essential to the success of this relationship. Talk about what would make you more comfortable. If you need help standing up to her or getting her to respect your requests, get a counselor's help. Couples counseling would help a lot. Individual counseling would also really help and might be easier for you (less conflict).
If instead you continue to tolerate behavior you consider nasty, play the martyr, try to minimize conflict in any way possible, silently criticize her -- all of that is a fast track to your feeling abused and/or contemptuous and to her feeling disrespectful, disrespected, and unheard. She already considers your unwillingness to engage "condescending," which I agree it might in fact be, though you probably don't mean it that way. But putting up with temper tantrums and insults is something adults do do with three-year-olds, but not with other adults.
What you might consider patience, forbearance, and generosity will go nowhere good. Every time you think of her as being ridiculous and think of yourself as being the better person, realize that you are in fact being self-serving by meeting your own need to be a "good person" and that you are in fact being nasty to her in your own mind and assuming that she can't be reasoned with. A better approach would be to instead say (with respect) "hey, look, I can't really deal with being insulted like this, can you knock off the name-calling so that we can keep talking and figure this out?" That respects her as an adult who can behave in a way that works for you. By staying human and being honest about yourself as a normal person with wants and needs, you stay in a respectful person-to-person relationship rather than trying to elevate yourself above it all.
My parents had a very similar dynamic before they divorced. If you want to make this marriage last, it will take some serious work and a willingness to go through a learning process. You might also consider if you would be more comfortable with someone who shares your dislike of conflict and desire to sacrifice herself for the good of the group. Best of luck. If you want more of this same message, feel free to MeMail me any time.
On preview, I'm with jbenben and Ragged Richard.
posted by salvia at 11:43 AM on November 23, 2010 [12 favorites]
What you would need to do:
- value your desires and preferences
- voice your preferences and requests
- say so when you disagree with her
- learn the difference between assertive communication and aggressive (or passive-aggressive) communication
- talk openly about what actions on her end make you uncomfortable
- set and enforce limits about the behavior you will and won't tolerate
- get couples counseling or at least individual counseling
What you need to not do
- do not try to be "the good guy"
- do not try to "have patience" or "turn the other cheek"
- do not take any comfort in "being the bigger person"
- do not silently disagree
- do not think to yourself "she is being ridiculous, we'll talk about this later"
- do not give her "the silent treatment" to get back at her (if you ever find yourself doing that)
Your preferences need to be brought out and discussed as something essential to the success of this relationship. Talk about what would make you more comfortable. If you need help standing up to her or getting her to respect your requests, get a counselor's help. Couples counseling would help a lot. Individual counseling would also really help and might be easier for you (less conflict).
If instead you continue to tolerate behavior you consider nasty, play the martyr, try to minimize conflict in any way possible, silently criticize her -- all of that is a fast track to your feeling abused and/or contemptuous and to her feeling disrespectful, disrespected, and unheard. She already considers your unwillingness to engage "condescending," which I agree it might in fact be, though you probably don't mean it that way. But putting up with temper tantrums and insults is something adults do do with three-year-olds, but not with other adults.
What you might consider patience, forbearance, and generosity will go nowhere good. Every time you think of her as being ridiculous and think of yourself as being the better person, realize that you are in fact being self-serving by meeting your own need to be a "good person" and that you are in fact being nasty to her in your own mind and assuming that she can't be reasoned with. A better approach would be to instead say (with respect) "hey, look, I can't really deal with being insulted like this, can you knock off the name-calling so that we can keep talking and figure this out?" That respects her as an adult who can behave in a way that works for you. By staying human and being honest about yourself as a normal person with wants and needs, you stay in a respectful person-to-person relationship rather than trying to elevate yourself above it all.
My parents had a very similar dynamic before they divorced. If you want to make this marriage last, it will take some serious work and a willingness to go through a learning process. You might also consider if you would be more comfortable with someone who shares your dislike of conflict and desire to sacrifice herself for the good of the group. Best of luck. If you want more of this same message, feel free to MeMail me any time.
On preview, I'm with jbenben and Ragged Richard.
posted by salvia at 11:43 AM on November 23, 2010 [12 favorites]
I'm not going to join the your-wife-is-crazy pile on here, because it sounds to me like you are mostly happily married and are looking for help getting through a rough patch and learning to communicate better. A marriage therapist can really help with this and is, I think, the best suggestion for you both. This isn't about what to do or where to move, but more about figuring out how to communicate in your marriage.
Now, for some perspective: when my husband and I married about ten years ago, we'd be living in a gorgeous dream home that he built himself over many years--the place he planned to be his whole life. I was in my late 20s and still figuring out what I wanted to do and be in the world. I ended up dragging him away from his dream home so I could pursue a new career. First we went across the state, then across the world, and then back home but to a different state in the US.
He was pretty reluctant about each move, but every single one has worked out really well. My husband tends to be the guy to say 'no' to each new idea without even thinking about it. So sometimes I push, not because I'm a spoiled brat or totally rotten but because I know his first reaction isn't always the most reasoned one. He's a good balance for me.
And now we're some place where we're both really happy, and it works great for all of us. I'm not saying you should move, but I do get where your wife is coming from.
I suspect some of what is going on for your wife is the reality that being married means she can't just pick up and move. So it's not that she wants to do something specific now, she just isn't quite ready to accept the idea that the adventure is over. Maybe staying in your hometown and traveling will suffice; maybe you can try someplace new.
But I think you both need some help working through this is you want your marriage to make it. Good luck.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:54 AM on November 23, 2010
Now, for some perspective: when my husband and I married about ten years ago, we'd be living in a gorgeous dream home that he built himself over many years--the place he planned to be his whole life. I was in my late 20s and still figuring out what I wanted to do and be in the world. I ended up dragging him away from his dream home so I could pursue a new career. First we went across the state, then across the world, and then back home but to a different state in the US.
He was pretty reluctant about each move, but every single one has worked out really well. My husband tends to be the guy to say 'no' to each new idea without even thinking about it. So sometimes I push, not because I'm a spoiled brat or totally rotten but because I know his first reaction isn't always the most reasoned one. He's a good balance for me.
And now we're some place where we're both really happy, and it works great for all of us. I'm not saying you should move, but I do get where your wife is coming from.
I suspect some of what is going on for your wife is the reality that being married means she can't just pick up and move. So it's not that she wants to do something specific now, she just isn't quite ready to accept the idea that the adventure is over. Maybe staying in your hometown and traveling will suffice; maybe you can try someplace new.
But I think you both need some help working through this is you want your marriage to make it. Good luck.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:54 AM on November 23, 2010
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
In other words, she's being unreasonable. She's obviously unhappy, but can't or won't put her finger on why and is instead taking it out on you. If it wasn't where you live, it would probably be something else that you can't change.
I also recommend couples therapy. You need a referee when you are fighting because otherwise, you're just going around in circles.
posted by Leezie at 11:55 AM on November 23, 2010
In other words, she's being unreasonable. She's obviously unhappy, but can't or won't put her finger on why and is instead taking it out on you. If it wasn't where you live, it would probably be something else that you can't change.
I also recommend couples therapy. You need a referee when you are fighting because otherwise, you're just going around in circles.
posted by Leezie at 11:55 AM on November 23, 2010
I come from an extremely specialized field with extremely few job opportunities, where sadly in most situations, a person's spouse does have to make sacrifices about their career and location. So I've thought a lot about this problem, but it doesn't actually seem like you have, given how dismissive you are of it.
Her flailing is likely a symptom of being unsatisfied in her career. And from what she says, she can't be satisfied where she is. Do you appreciate the fact that she's made a sacrifice to stay in the city of your choosing, when she'd rather be elsewhere? I'm not saying you should necessarily move, but it doesn't sound like you're taking her concerns seriously.
Echoing above, given your tone, I don't necessarily trust your account of her behavior either. I can definitely see how gender and age dynamics play out in your description, and it doesn't paint either of you in a very good light.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 11:56 AM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
Her flailing is likely a symptom of being unsatisfied in her career. And from what she says, she can't be satisfied where she is. Do you appreciate the fact that she's made a sacrifice to stay in the city of your choosing, when she'd rather be elsewhere? I'm not saying you should necessarily move, but it doesn't sound like you're taking her concerns seriously.
Echoing above, given your tone, I don't necessarily trust your account of her behavior either. I can definitely see how gender and age dynamics play out in your description, and it doesn't paint either of you in a very good light.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 11:56 AM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
I think she's being ridiculous. But I think she's doing it because she's bored and feels trapped in a stable life with you, and is probably scared of becoming less than she dreamed and is feeling antsy, which is probably why she has impractical ideas like saving the world by running an orphanage. Maybe getting everything she wants has been too easy for her. She's probably looking for some kind of Harlequin-type passion or something to be passionate about.
She needs to figure out how to help herself. You're wonderful for being patient. Maybe she was too immature to get married and settle down. This kind of stuff, this "if you loved me then you would" is ridiculous.
I don't know, no one does, what will happen in your marriage. She has to recognize that she's not being the best partner or the easiest person to deal with. If you do counseling, I think the future of your marriage might end up depending on what kind of counseling you guys get. If you guys don't talk about it with a counselor, I'm afraid she'll make everything unforgivably worse and hurt you.
And this is only what I'm saying if what you're saying is a good portrayal of what she's saying. Bottom line, you guys are having trouble communicating. See a marriage counselor.
posted by anniecat at 11:57 AM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
She needs to figure out how to help herself. You're wonderful for being patient. Maybe she was too immature to get married and settle down. This kind of stuff, this "if you loved me then you would" is ridiculous.
I don't know, no one does, what will happen in your marriage. She has to recognize that she's not being the best partner or the easiest person to deal with. If you do counseling, I think the future of your marriage might end up depending on what kind of counseling you guys get. If you guys don't talk about it with a counselor, I'm afraid she'll make everything unforgivably worse and hurt you.
And this is only what I'm saying if what you're saying is a good portrayal of what she's saying. Bottom line, you guys are having trouble communicating. See a marriage counselor.
posted by anniecat at 11:57 AM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
You married a girl. There's no excuse for her behavior.
This. Well, sorta.
Here's some (hopefully enlightening?) anecdata. My situation was different, but similar. I guess I was playing the role of "Your Wife." Bear with me.
I was 26. He was 37. We'd been dating/co-habitating for 5 years, no marriage talks. He had a company of his own.
I was in grad school for design/advertising, and just *knew* that there wasn't much for me in our mid-sized town, post-graduation. Although I was trying my best to "staystaystaystay youcandothis staystaystaystay," I knew that I had to give myself, and my career, a shot in NEW YORK CITY. (Imagine bright lights and the Great White Way.) I was still a kid.
"Us" moving was out was impossible. He had responsibilities where he was. I felt frustrated and impotent. That frustration started funneling toward my boyfriend. As in, he couldn't do anything right— laundry, shoe placement, dinner, gifts, whatever. I was being horrible! And I wasn't meaning to, I was just channeling frustration the wrong way. And it was not the boyfriend's fault.
I did end up moving to New York. It was a good decision. Both ex-boyfriend and I are happier for it, I know for a fact. I had to go grow up. It was time for me to go grow up. I have, and still am.
--------------
Here's the thing. 26-28 is a weird time. That's when many people feel like they have to OMG DO SOMETHING BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. She probably feels held back from her potential, and is building you up as the bad guy. Hence, she's taking it out on you, via nit-picking. This isn't right.
And you're not the bad guy. I repeat: you are not the bad guy. Neither are you being silly. She (hopefully) isn't trying to be awful, but also isn't acknowledging that she's picking on you for a larger reason. One that probably doesn't have anything to do with you.
Maybe this isn't part of your question, but as far as options... can she go live in Big Shiny City without you for a while? One of these things would probably happen:
1.) She goes, struggles and fails. Realizes she wants to come home.
2.) She goes, succeeds beyond her wildest dreams, never wants to come home, and you split up. (Not necessarily a bad outcome, see my story.)
3.) She goes, succeeds beyond her wildest dreams, but doesn't like life without you. You or she move to each other.
Honestly, what's that saying about birds or butterflies or whatever, and letting them go?
posted by functionequalsform at 12:05 PM on November 23, 2010 [11 favorites]
This. Well, sorta.
Here's some (hopefully enlightening?) anecdata. My situation was different, but similar. I guess I was playing the role of "Your Wife." Bear with me.
I was 26. He was 37. We'd been dating/co-habitating for 5 years, no marriage talks. He had a company of his own.
I was in grad school for design/advertising, and just *knew* that there wasn't much for me in our mid-sized town, post-graduation. Although I was trying my best to "staystaystaystay youcandothis staystaystaystay," I knew that I had to give myself, and my career, a shot in NEW YORK CITY. (Imagine bright lights and the Great White Way.) I was still a kid.
"Us" moving was out was impossible. He had responsibilities where he was. I felt frustrated and impotent. That frustration started funneling toward my boyfriend. As in, he couldn't do anything right— laundry, shoe placement, dinner, gifts, whatever. I was being horrible! And I wasn't meaning to, I was just channeling frustration the wrong way. And it was not the boyfriend's fault.
I did end up moving to New York. It was a good decision. Both ex-boyfriend and I are happier for it, I know for a fact. I had to go grow up. It was time for me to go grow up. I have, and still am.
--------------
Here's the thing. 26-28 is a weird time. That's when many people feel like they have to OMG DO SOMETHING BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. She probably feels held back from her potential, and is building you up as the bad guy. Hence, she's taking it out on you, via nit-picking. This isn't right.
And you're not the bad guy. I repeat: you are not the bad guy. Neither are you being silly. She (hopefully) isn't trying to be awful, but also isn't acknowledging that she's picking on you for a larger reason. One that probably doesn't have anything to do with you.
Maybe this isn't part of your question, but as far as options... can she go live in Big Shiny City without you for a while? One of these things would probably happen:
1.) She goes, struggles and fails. Realizes she wants to come home.
2.) She goes, succeeds beyond her wildest dreams, never wants to come home, and you split up. (Not necessarily a bad outcome, see my story.)
3.) She goes, succeeds beyond her wildest dreams, but doesn't like life without you. You or she move to each other.
Honestly, what's that saying about birds or butterflies or whatever, and letting them go?
posted by functionequalsform at 12:05 PM on November 23, 2010 [11 favorites]
She is still in her 20's and has been with you for 6 years. You're incredibly comfortable and settled already, she's not. Presumably she's never gone off on a big life adventure before, and is feeling afraid that opportunity's going to slip her by. You have a hard time taking her seriously because she doesn't tend to follow through on things. Yes she's being a selfish baby but this is an opportunity for her to gain some maturity. So tell her you're open to the idea of helping her pursue her dream, but you're not comfortable with simply packing up and going. You want to be able to plan and feel secure, and one of you has to have a permanent job there first. Tell her to go job-hunting in the big city, and when she lands that job with the major firm, then you will sell the house and move. She might get it, she might not. But she can try. Tell yourself you can always move back at some later date, it's not forever.
That said, I've been in a relationship that degraded to the kind of arguments you're stating here - me being like her, my ex being like you. Both of you are being stupid and immature (as we were). I really don't know how you can address how your communication styles are incongruent, but I'd see a counsellor on your own first to get professional advice and some tactics under your belt, taking the lead in figuring out how to address this problem. Simply getting someone to intervene with her on your behalf in a quiet feelings-filled talk session isn't a good first-tactic when that's the approach you've already been taking. So I'd tell her in the same conversation as agreeing to let her try to get that job, that you want to go to a counselor and learn how you can improve things from your side.
posted by lizbunny at 12:08 PM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
That said, I've been in a relationship that degraded to the kind of arguments you're stating here - me being like her, my ex being like you. Both of you are being stupid and immature (as we were). I really don't know how you can address how your communication styles are incongruent, but I'd see a counsellor on your own first to get professional advice and some tactics under your belt, taking the lead in figuring out how to address this problem. Simply getting someone to intervene with her on your behalf in a quiet feelings-filled talk session isn't a good first-tactic when that's the approach you've already been taking. So I'd tell her in the same conversation as agreeing to let her try to get that job, that you want to go to a counselor and learn how you can improve things from your side.
posted by lizbunny at 12:08 PM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
This sounds very familiar to me. I don't know about the inner workings of your marriage (it could be radically different than what I had), but as far as the "where to live" question goes... well, here is my opinion/story.
I met my now ex-husband while living in Alaska as a teenager. I had moved there thinking that I would only be there for a few years and then move somewhere else. But I fell head over heels for this guy and we eventually moved even further north to get our undergraduate degrees. We had numerous conversations about what we would do after graduations. Sometimes these involved moving out of AK, sometimes they didn't.
We got our degrees, got married, bought a house, and had two kick-ass kids. The conversations about moving faded into the background. Especially for the ex because he had a high-paying, interesting job and really loves Alaska.
Over the years I grew to miss my family more and more (they live in the south) and plane tickets are now up to about $1000 each. I grew to resent where we lived more and more and I grew to resent my husband as well. There are no jobs in my field here, so I'm stuck teaching as adjunct faculty making wages far below poverty. I have seasonal affective disorder. There are fewer than 6 hours of daylight for 6 months out of the year.
After my kids were a little older and we were a little less stressed about parenting, I started to revisit the "moving" conversation. During one particularly difficult argument he said "Look, I decided a long time ago that I was keeping this job until I retire. I like it here." That was the beginning of the end of our marriage. He made a decision about our long term future without ever consulting me. Now, not only am I divorced, but I'm STILL stuck in a frozen wasteland that I hate with a dead end job. My kids deserve to have their dad around even if I despise the man.
I don't know if I really have any advice, but sometimes where a couple lives or doesn't live can be a marriage ending deal breaker. You may not want to move, but if you want to stay married you should start thinking about solutions that don't MERELY involve you staying put.
posted by madred at 12:10 PM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
I met my now ex-husband while living in Alaska as a teenager. I had moved there thinking that I would only be there for a few years and then move somewhere else. But I fell head over heels for this guy and we eventually moved even further north to get our undergraduate degrees. We had numerous conversations about what we would do after graduations. Sometimes these involved moving out of AK, sometimes they didn't.
We got our degrees, got married, bought a house, and had two kick-ass kids. The conversations about moving faded into the background. Especially for the ex because he had a high-paying, interesting job and really loves Alaska.
Over the years I grew to miss my family more and more (they live in the south) and plane tickets are now up to about $1000 each. I grew to resent where we lived more and more and I grew to resent my husband as well. There are no jobs in my field here, so I'm stuck teaching as adjunct faculty making wages far below poverty. I have seasonal affective disorder. There are fewer than 6 hours of daylight for 6 months out of the year.
After my kids were a little older and we were a little less stressed about parenting, I started to revisit the "moving" conversation. During one particularly difficult argument he said "Look, I decided a long time ago that I was keeping this job until I retire. I like it here." That was the beginning of the end of our marriage. He made a decision about our long term future without ever consulting me. Now, not only am I divorced, but I'm STILL stuck in a frozen wasteland that I hate with a dead end job. My kids deserve to have their dad around even if I despise the man.
I don't know if I really have any advice, but sometimes where a couple lives or doesn't live can be a marriage ending deal breaker. You may not want to move, but if you want to stay married you should start thinking about solutions that don't MERELY involve you staying put.
posted by madred at 12:10 PM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Dude, don't budge an inch. Because the truth is even if you moved for her it would not be enough, and the fact she is acting this way proves she has no respect for you at all. In other words, unless you can find a really good couples therapist chances are you will be finding a divorce lawyer.
Because this isn't really about moving.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:40 PM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Because this isn't really about moving.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:40 PM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm hoping that you're telling the story in a way that is very slanted toward your perspective because, otherwise, your spouse seems incredibly self-centered. If she were to adhere to her own guidelines, as you've described them, she should be willing to live where ever you want under whatever conditions to prove she loves you.
Same tired old saw, couples counseling. In you're place I'd suggest it by saying the two of you obviously aren't seeing things in quite the same way and that a third party's perspective might be helpful.
posted by Carbolic at 12:53 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Same tired old saw, couples counseling. In you're place I'd suggest it by saying the two of you obviously aren't seeing things in quite the same way and that a third party's perspective might be helpful.
posted by Carbolic at 12:53 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
About a month after we got married I mentioned that my approach to conflict resolution would be a concilliatory one. If we had a fight, I'd swallow it, or say, "I love you babe, let's work it out". She replied that her attitude would be the exact opposite, that she would pick me up on things if she didn't like them. She said she wanted things to be just right if she was going to be in it forever.
I believe I see a big part of your problem. It's too late for you guys to have this conversation before you get married, but I really want to encourage other people reading this thread to take away the message that this is the kind of conversation that people should have before they get married.
Fortunately, it's not too late for you guys to have this conversation again with a couples therapist. You need to do this ASAP, because this mismatch is going to wreck your marriage--the moving thing is a symptom, not a cause, of a deeply dysfunctional communication style.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:00 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I believe I see a big part of your problem. It's too late for you guys to have this conversation before you get married, but I really want to encourage other people reading this thread to take away the message that this is the kind of conversation that people should have before they get married.
Fortunately, it's not too late for you guys to have this conversation again with a couples therapist. You need to do this ASAP, because this mismatch is going to wreck your marriage--the moving thing is a symptom, not a cause, of a deeply dysfunctional communication style.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:00 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
When I was 25 I moved my partner and myself thousand of kilometers away from our entire families and all but 1 friend each. Part of it was job opportunities beyond what I had and part of it was needing to do something grand. It ended up that about 4 of my friends moved down as well.
I loved that city, I really did. The other anachronism didn't. He hated being away from his family and friends. He hated the cold. We had our daughter down there and he started hating it even more so I started looking for a job back up here. In reasonably short order I got one and we moved back and then I hated it. I liked being so far from our families. I liked the cold. I loved the city. But I love him more.
You can move and compromise without destroying each other. You can't keep communicating about it the way you do.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:13 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I loved that city, I really did. The other anachronism didn't. He hated being away from his family and friends. He hated the cold. We had our daughter down there and he started hating it even more so I started looking for a job back up here. In reasonably short order I got one and we moved back and then I hated it. I liked being so far from our families. I liked the cold. I loved the city. But I love him more.
You can move and compromise without destroying each other. You can't keep communicating about it the way you do.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:13 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have a lot of the same kinds of impulses as your wife -- I want to move somewhere else (for a few years), I have about a million ideas for businesses and dabble in them, and i'm confrontational whereas my husband is very passive. I'm also roughly the same age (a little older).
But.
We respect each other, and we've learned to communicate with each other. At first I treated my husband a lot like the way your wife is treating you - I was dismissive of his communication style and the way he approached problems, I thought he wasn't supportive when he didn't immediately pick up and move to Rotorunga to raise chickens because I was feeling restless and not sure about my life. I gave him a hard time.
But in the past year or two, I grew up. I learned to understand how he works, and to appreciate that while he's different, he's still amazing and he's no less exciting because he doesn't have crazy impulses. And he's learned to help me prioritise my craziness and tries to be patient when I go off on a oh-god-I'm-not-saving-the-world-i'm-so-bourgeoisie-let's-sell-all-our-possessions-and-go-sailing-for-a-year tangent.
The biggest thing to take away from all this blethering is that it was me who had to grow up. I had to deal with a lot of anxiety issues, general crap, and just generally dig deep and learn to be happy with myself. It sounds like your wife might need to do something similar -- I would suggest that she look into meditation, counselling, whatever she needs to learn to love how great her life is right now.
posted by ukdanae at 1:19 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
But.
We respect each other, and we've learned to communicate with each other. At first I treated my husband a lot like the way your wife is treating you - I was dismissive of his communication style and the way he approached problems, I thought he wasn't supportive when he didn't immediately pick up and move to Rotorunga to raise chickens because I was feeling restless and not sure about my life. I gave him a hard time.
But in the past year or two, I grew up. I learned to understand how he works, and to appreciate that while he's different, he's still amazing and he's no less exciting because he doesn't have crazy impulses. And he's learned to help me prioritise my craziness and tries to be patient when I go off on a oh-god-I'm-not-saving-the-world-i'm-so-bourgeoisie-let's-sell-all-our-possessions-and-go-sailing-for-a-year tangent.
The biggest thing to take away from all this blethering is that it was me who had to grow up. I had to deal with a lot of anxiety issues, general crap, and just generally dig deep and learn to be happy with myself. It sounds like your wife might need to do something similar -- I would suggest that she look into meditation, counselling, whatever she needs to learn to love how great her life is right now.
posted by ukdanae at 1:19 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm going to disagree with 90% of the comments here and second Tooty McTootsalot.
She says that she can't get the job she really wants when we're living in the city we're in. I've said I don't want to stay here forever, but I just can't leave yet. She wants to work for a big design firm, though in the time we've been together she's variously wanted to do a Masters degree, write a book, open a restaurant, start an invitation printing business, write a movie screenplay, start an online business, and others. I've supported all of these because I think she could do great things if she focused on one. She's very creative. But she tends not to stick to one thing. She says she doesn't want to choose just one, she wants to 'save the world' (for example by running an orphanage in Russia).
It's not clear to me whether or not you're really all that supportive of these because, though you're claiming you are, you're also saying "she could do great things if she focused on one"--you're actually being critical, and at the heart of your message is the fact that you don't think she's approaching her dreams correctly.
But it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that she's unhappy with her career right now. This is significant, frustrating, and draining. She deserves a chance to explore her options.
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy. I've asked her what we would do if I couldn't get a job and she says that I should be prepared to do no matter what. She says that she wants proof that I love her in the form of some compromise for her.
Tests like that are lame, but you know what? She's spent the majority of her adult life in a city where she's clearly not really happy doing something that, from the sound of it, she doesn't really care about, without any sort of support system, from the sound of it--you don't mention that she has any friends where you live. And while it's great that she has you, that's not enough--for anyone.
My husband and I have made sacrifices like this--but we've taken turns. He moved to Florida for me after college; now, I've moved to Virginia for him so he can go to graduate school. It's hard; it's always hard to live somewhere new, far away from family and friends, especially when you're not there to pursue your own goals. I think it's helped both my husband and I to know that these relocations weren't permanent, that we're working towards specific, concrete goals with these moves with specific end dates, and that, ultimately, it will be our mutual needs and goals that will be considered before we pick a place to live and settle down.
I've known other couples who felt like you did--weirdly, in both cases I can think of, it was the guy who refused to move away from his happy, stable life near his family in his home town, and it was the woman struck by wanderlust who needed to go elsewhere to be fulfilled. I don't think either of those feelings are invalid--but they are incompatible.
If I were in her position, as someone who needs to experience new places and try new things to be happy, I'd feel stifled, alone, and, deep down, probably furious. Does that justify the mutual problems you're having with communication? No. But I think you need to really look long and hard at whether you'd be realistically willing to compromise and work to meet her needs (and saying she can buy anything she wants aint it; it's a band-aid, and, frankly, it's not a band-aid you're even applying since it's her money, too). Her needs clearly involve moving and exploring a new career. I think it's going to be disastrous if you keep trying to put her dreams off further.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:42 PM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
She says that she can't get the job she really wants when we're living in the city we're in. I've said I don't want to stay here forever, but I just can't leave yet. She wants to work for a big design firm, though in the time we've been together she's variously wanted to do a Masters degree, write a book, open a restaurant, start an invitation printing business, write a movie screenplay, start an online business, and others. I've supported all of these because I think she could do great things if she focused on one. She's very creative. But she tends not to stick to one thing. She says she doesn't want to choose just one, she wants to 'save the world' (for example by running an orphanage in Russia).
It's not clear to me whether or not you're really all that supportive of these because, though you're claiming you are, you're also saying "she could do great things if she focused on one"--you're actually being critical, and at the heart of your message is the fact that you don't think she's approaching her dreams correctly.
But it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that she's unhappy with her career right now. This is significant, frustrating, and draining. She deserves a chance to explore her options.
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy. I've asked her what we would do if I couldn't get a job and she says that I should be prepared to do no matter what. She says that she wants proof that I love her in the form of some compromise for her.
Tests like that are lame, but you know what? She's spent the majority of her adult life in a city where she's clearly not really happy doing something that, from the sound of it, she doesn't really care about, without any sort of support system, from the sound of it--you don't mention that she has any friends where you live. And while it's great that she has you, that's not enough--for anyone.
My husband and I have made sacrifices like this--but we've taken turns. He moved to Florida for me after college; now, I've moved to Virginia for him so he can go to graduate school. It's hard; it's always hard to live somewhere new, far away from family and friends, especially when you're not there to pursue your own goals. I think it's helped both my husband and I to know that these relocations weren't permanent, that we're working towards specific, concrete goals with these moves with specific end dates, and that, ultimately, it will be our mutual needs and goals that will be considered before we pick a place to live and settle down.
I've known other couples who felt like you did--weirdly, in both cases I can think of, it was the guy who refused to move away from his happy, stable life near his family in his home town, and it was the woman struck by wanderlust who needed to go elsewhere to be fulfilled. I don't think either of those feelings are invalid--but they are incompatible.
If I were in her position, as someone who needs to experience new places and try new things to be happy, I'd feel stifled, alone, and, deep down, probably furious. Does that justify the mutual problems you're having with communication? No. But I think you need to really look long and hard at whether you'd be realistically willing to compromise and work to meet her needs (and saying she can buy anything she wants aint it; it's a band-aid, and, frankly, it's not a band-aid you're even applying since it's her money, too). Her needs clearly involve moving and exploring a new career. I think it's going to be disastrous if you keep trying to put her dreams off further.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:42 PM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me.
If someone said that to me (suggesting that they were "settling") I would point her to the door and ask for a forwarding address for her stuff. YMMV.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:42 PM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
If someone said that to me (suggesting that they were "settling") I would point her to the door and ask for a forwarding address for her stuff. YMMV.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:42 PM on November 23, 2010 [4 favorites]
Also, I should say, I never dreamed of living where I do. I live here because of my spouse and I never say anything, but I dream of moving home and away. I hate it here. But I try not to say anything because we need to be here. He likes his job. I don't want him to be miserable in India.
posted by anniecat at 1:58 PM on November 23, 2010
posted by anniecat at 1:58 PM on November 23, 2010
FWIW, when Mr Sunny and I were new in our relationship, we fought in very different ways. I had a tendency to withdrawal and be quiet when angry, and he would yell and stomp and scream. He learned not to yell, and to take a walk when he couldn't say anything without being cruel. I learned to not withdraw, just to tell him when I was mad, or starting to get that way. We both learned to fight in a better, more constructive way. This is why people are suggesting couples counseling, so you can both learn to fight constructively.
I have concerns about what you are saying, however. It sounds like she is just pissed, and finding excuses to be mad at you. Moving when your relationship is so turbulent seems like a bad idea, as you will lose you support system.
You mention she has wanted to do many other things. There is nothing wrong with that, I am the same way. However, the extreme 'save the world' thing leads me to ask this: Could it be a mental problem with her, like ADD, or Manic Depression?
One last thought. Resentment is a relationship killer. I can't emphasize that enough. Resentment is a relationship killer.
posted by annsunny at 2:15 PM on November 23, 2010
I have concerns about what you are saying, however. It sounds like she is just pissed, and finding excuses to be mad at you. Moving when your relationship is so turbulent seems like a bad idea, as you will lose you support system.
You mention she has wanted to do many other things. There is nothing wrong with that, I am the same way. However, the extreme 'save the world' thing leads me to ask this: Could it be a mental problem with her, like ADD, or Manic Depression?
One last thought. Resentment is a relationship killer. I can't emphasize that enough. Resentment is a relationship killer.
posted by annsunny at 2:15 PM on November 23, 2010
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you all so much for posting your opinions. They have all really helped. Some things you should know:posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:46 PM on November 23, 2010
She is currently working in another country, in a marketing and design capacity. She says she's prepared to come home if and only if I acknowledge the sacrifice she's making to be with me and that I should be prepared to move with her, *no exceptions*. These are her words. The proving my love for her, those are her words too.
I completely understand how my description could be biased by my view. One reason why I'm posting is to get some objectivity on the situation. I've tried to use her words verbatim in my description.
She doesn't have one particular city in mind, it's any city. It's getting to the point where even if I found a job in another city, that would not be enough because I'm still not really giving anything up (so I'm not compromising).
I love her so much. She is my beautiful angel and I just can't imagine my life without her. I cry several times a day thinking about her. Smelling her hair reminds me of home. We dance cheek to cheek even when there is no music. I do not want to hold her back, because she could truly save the world one day.
Inspector.Gadget: "She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me."
If someone said that to me (suggesting that they were "settling") I would point her to the door and ask for a forwarding address for her stuff. YMMV.
When we first got back to our hometown we were inundated with visitors and I was getting more and more upset and at one point I had to say to my partner "do you not realise that I have sacrificed what I want to be back here to give you what you want?" because he honestly didn't. He was just SO happy to be where he wanted to be, be back with his family, that the concept that I was UNHAPPY at the exact same prospect was totally foreign. Ignoring that I did sacrifice things I enjoyed wasn't going to help either of us and it's got nothing to do with settling, it is actually a legitimate discussion to have. And by acknowledging those sacrifices we can work out how to make this city work better for me.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:47 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
If someone said that to me (suggesting that they were "settling") I would point her to the door and ask for a forwarding address for her stuff. YMMV.
When we first got back to our hometown we were inundated with visitors and I was getting more and more upset and at one point I had to say to my partner "do you not realise that I have sacrificed what I want to be back here to give you what you want?" because he honestly didn't. He was just SO happy to be where he wanted to be, be back with his family, that the concept that I was UNHAPPY at the exact same prospect was totally foreign. Ignoring that I did sacrifice things I enjoyed wasn't going to help either of us and it's got nothing to do with settling, it is actually a legitimate discussion to have. And by acknowledging those sacrifices we can work out how to make this city work better for me.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:47 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
You guys need marriage counseling, stat. An objective, skilled third party who can help you with your relationship. It seems quite close to a crisis.
posted by hootenatty at 2:54 PM on November 23, 2010
posted by hootenatty at 2:54 PM on November 23, 2010
She doesn't have one particular city in mind, it's any city. It's getting to the point where even if I found a job in another city, that would not be enough because I'm still not really giving anything up (so I'm not compromising).
I'm going to assume you meant, "She doesn't have any city in mind, it's one city."
If you're really committed with staying with her, and you truly believe in her, you should start looking for a job in the city she wants to live in. This, to me, wouldn't be about proving my love but rather acknowledging that my spouse is desperately and untenably unhappy in our current situation. However, I would make counseling a requirement of the relocation. You both need it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:56 PM on November 23, 2010
I'm going to assume you meant, "She doesn't have any city in mind, it's one city."
If you're really committed with staying with her, and you truly believe in her, you should start looking for a job in the city she wants to live in. This, to me, wouldn't be about proving my love but rather acknowledging that my spouse is desperately and untenably unhappy in our current situation. However, I would make counseling a requirement of the relocation. You both need it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:56 PM on November 23, 2010
So she's giving up her home country to live in your country and be with you? Yeah, dude, that is a big sacrifice. Acknowledge it and find someplace she wants to be--since you got to pick the country, let her have input into where within the country. That does sound totally reasonable.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:02 PM on November 23, 2010
posted by bluedaisy at 3:02 PM on November 23, 2010
I like what functionequalsform is saying. I would bet there's some mid-20s crisis going on here. However, the way you two communicate is terrible. Saying "yes, yes, honey, I love you" when she is provoking you doesn't solve the issue on the table. And I do get the sense that in at least some of these interactions, she's provoking you. She's unsettled for whatever reason and wants maybe an excuse to bail. If you really blow up at her, she can bail.
But, that's just one read on it. You guys totally need a marriage counselor and you need to get this stuff out there. You may need to separate for awhile if what she needs is to sow her oats and get out there and shake things up. There's nothing wrong with that but I don't see how you two, with your ways of communicating, are going to get to the bottom of this on your own.
Good luck.
posted by amanda at 3:03 PM on November 23, 2010
But, that's just one read on it. You guys totally need a marriage counselor and you need to get this stuff out there. You may need to separate for awhile if what she needs is to sow her oats and get out there and shake things up. There's nothing wrong with that but I don't see how you two, with your ways of communicating, are going to get to the bottom of this on your own.
Good luck.
posted by amanda at 3:03 PM on November 23, 2010
Your update is confusing. (I'm starting to wonder if you are a troll)
If this is legit, then you you should know you sound unhinged. She's already successfully working abroad. You cry twice a day. What is this dynamic about??
It seems you are latching onto certain "hot button" phrases that support your position, but your descriptions still ring false somehow. Sorry.
For example, I don't understand why are you unable to rent the house and live abroad with your wife for a year or two? Folks do it all the time. There are a million solutions here that don't include tearing yourself up inside, yet you seem pretty committed to this victim-y strategy.
You need counseling asap. If your wife is in fact living overseas and working in the field she desires, then she's fine for the moment. This also means she is not working in government in the city where you live like you originally told us. Hmm.
"So tell me MeFi. Am I just being silly?"
Yes. But it is unclear why.
posted by jbenben at 3:06 PM on November 23, 2010 [11 favorites]
If this is legit, then you you should know you sound unhinged. She's already successfully working abroad. You cry twice a day. What is this dynamic about??
It seems you are latching onto certain "hot button" phrases that support your position, but your descriptions still ring false somehow. Sorry.
For example, I don't understand why are you unable to rent the house and live abroad with your wife for a year or two? Folks do it all the time. There are a million solutions here that don't include tearing yourself up inside, yet you seem pretty committed to this victim-y strategy.
You need counseling asap. If your wife is in fact living overseas and working in the field she desires, then she's fine for the moment. This also means she is not working in government in the city where you live like you originally told us. Hmm.
"So tell me MeFi. Am I just being silly?"
Yes. But it is unclear why.
posted by jbenben at 3:06 PM on November 23, 2010 [11 favorites]
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything and wants me to agree to follow her to another city. She says that when I say that I don't want to leave because of my friends, family and job, I'm putting these things ahead of her. She says that if I loved her I would want the best for her and I would give these things up to make her happy.
Has she given up a lot to stay with you? Have you not given up much/anything? I'm especially curious about "She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me." Have you admitted the sacrifices she's made to be with you, and she just doesn't think you've said it strongly enough? Or have you refused because you doesn't feel like she has sacrificed a lot? Or what?
How did you guys make the decision about buying the house? How have your conversations gone in the past about where to live for how long, etc? Was she on-board at the time and has changed her tune, or is she right that it was mostly driven by what you wanted? How have these issues come up before? I find it hard to imagine that they simply bubbled up recently for the first time ever.
Your description of her makes her sound totally unreasonable. It very well may be that she is. But it also may be that you're leaving key things out. I mean, even if she is at the end of her rope for totally legitimate reasons, this still is not the right way to address it. But she's somewhere on the spectrum between "making ridiculous demands that you prove your love and make sacrifices for the relationship, despite the fact that you make lots of sacrifices and compromises and she knows it, because she's crazy/demanding/whatever" and "making over-dramatic and unfair demands that you prove your love and make sacrifices for the relationship, because she really feels like she's always the one giving and you've put your needs and desires above hers in a variety of ways and unless you show a dramatic willingness to change, she's ready to be done with this relationship," and you ought to try to honestly assess where.
(I get the impression that you might consider one of your big sacrifices for the relationship to be that you don't say anything about her spending lots of money on things she wants... I bet she doesn't see it that way, and if her spending doesn't interfere with you getting things you want and she doesn't know it bothers you since you don't say anything, I wouldn't blame her.)
posted by EmilyClimbs at 3:46 PM on November 23, 2010
Has she given up a lot to stay with you? Have you not given up much/anything? I'm especially curious about "She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me." Have you admitted the sacrifices she's made to be with you, and she just doesn't think you've said it strongly enough? Or have you refused because you doesn't feel like she has sacrificed a lot? Or what?
How did you guys make the decision about buying the house? How have your conversations gone in the past about where to live for how long, etc? Was she on-board at the time and has changed her tune, or is she right that it was mostly driven by what you wanted? How have these issues come up before? I find it hard to imagine that they simply bubbled up recently for the first time ever.
Your description of her makes her sound totally unreasonable. It very well may be that she is. But it also may be that you're leaving key things out. I mean, even if she is at the end of her rope for totally legitimate reasons, this still is not the right way to address it. But she's somewhere on the spectrum between "making ridiculous demands that you prove your love and make sacrifices for the relationship, despite the fact that you make lots of sacrifices and compromises and she knows it, because she's crazy/demanding/whatever" and "making over-dramatic and unfair demands that you prove your love and make sacrifices for the relationship, because she really feels like she's always the one giving and you've put your needs and desires above hers in a variety of ways and unless you show a dramatic willingness to change, she's ready to be done with this relationship," and you ought to try to honestly assess where.
(I get the impression that you might consider one of your big sacrifices for the relationship to be that you don't say anything about her spending lots of money on things she wants... I bet she doesn't see it that way, and if her spending doesn't interfere with you getting things you want and she doesn't know it bothers you since you don't say anything, I wouldn't blame her.)
posted by EmilyClimbs at 3:46 PM on November 23, 2010
If this guy is living in the US please let us remember that the job market is what it is right now. Her ultimatum is foolishness in the extreme unless she can and is willing to support them both if he is unemployed.
Frankly if someone gave me that kind of ultimatum it would be a deal breaker. You don't talk to a beloved spouse that way. I am not saying it might not be a good idea for them to discuss future plans but you cannot approach this kind of issue like this. You just can't.
Besides, the bald fact is this should have been discussed before the marriage. You don't just give up a good job in a decent city with no prospects in this kind of world economy, and you don't ask a spouse to "prove their love" in such a way with such an attitude. My thought would be to tell her not to bother to come home at all unless she is willing to go to couple's counselling to get to the bottom of all this. She may have a valid point, or she may be batcrap insane with bipolar disorder or she may be at any point between the two poles but at this point it is going to take a trained impartial professional to get to the bottom of this train wreck.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:49 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Frankly if someone gave me that kind of ultimatum it would be a deal breaker. You don't talk to a beloved spouse that way. I am not saying it might not be a good idea for them to discuss future plans but you cannot approach this kind of issue like this. You just can't.
Besides, the bald fact is this should have been discussed before the marriage. You don't just give up a good job in a decent city with no prospects in this kind of world economy, and you don't ask a spouse to "prove their love" in such a way with such an attitude. My thought would be to tell her not to bother to come home at all unless she is willing to go to couple's counselling to get to the bottom of all this. She may have a valid point, or she may be batcrap insane with bipolar disorder or she may be at any point between the two poles but at this point it is going to take a trained impartial professional to get to the bottom of this train wreck.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:49 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't even need to read the rest, just this:
My wife says that if she wants to move, and I don't, that I'm not putting her first. She says she wants proof that I would do anything for her because relationships are based on compromise.
If you don't want to move, and she does, then she's not putting you first. Doing "anything" for her is not compromise. So if she's really asking for those things, then perhaps she's being unreasonable.
Or perhaps both of her complaints are because you're not even willing to discuss a compromise, and she's at her wits' end. It is impossible to say, because we only have one side of things -- yours.
Let's assume for the moment that you're both reasonable people, and so you're having a communication problem. So get yourselves to a couples therapist -- this is what they're good for.
At the end of the day, if she's really done all those things for you, and you're not willing to do the same -- then perhaps this relationship needs to end, not because you're wrong or she's wrong, but because you both want different things and neither is willing to compromise on these specific things (never mind the past.)
Again, get thee to a couples therapist, be completely honest, and see what happens.
posted by davejay at 3:51 PM on November 23, 2010
My wife says that if she wants to move, and I don't, that I'm not putting her first. She says she wants proof that I would do anything for her because relationships are based on compromise.
If you don't want to move, and she does, then she's not putting you first. Doing "anything" for her is not compromise. So if she's really asking for those things, then perhaps she's being unreasonable.
Or perhaps both of her complaints are because you're not even willing to discuss a compromise, and she's at her wits' end. It is impossible to say, because we only have one side of things -- yours.
Let's assume for the moment that you're both reasonable people, and so you're having a communication problem. So get yourselves to a couples therapist -- this is what they're good for.
At the end of the day, if she's really done all those things for you, and you're not willing to do the same -- then perhaps this relationship needs to end, not because you're wrong or she's wrong, but because you both want different things and neither is willing to compromise on these specific things (never mind the past.)
Again, get thee to a couples therapist, be completely honest, and see what happens.
posted by davejay at 3:51 PM on November 23, 2010
Oh, one more thing:
I love her so much. She is my beautiful angel and I just can't imagine my life without her. I cry several times a day thinking about her. Smelling her hair reminds me of home. We dance cheek to cheek even when there is no music. I do not want to hold her back, because she could truly save the world one day.
It's a bit difficult to reconcile this expressed view of how you feel, against the idea that you don't do anything for her. Overall there's something that feels desperately unhealthy. Get a recommendation for a couples' therapist out where she is, then go visit her and have a couple of sessions.
posted by davejay at 3:54 PM on November 23, 2010
I love her so much. She is my beautiful angel and I just can't imagine my life without her. I cry several times a day thinking about her. Smelling her hair reminds me of home. We dance cheek to cheek even when there is no music. I do not want to hold her back, because she could truly save the world one day.
It's a bit difficult to reconcile this expressed view of how you feel, against the idea that you don't do anything for her. Overall there's something that feels desperately unhealthy. Get a recommendation for a couples' therapist out where she is, then go visit her and have a couple of sessions.
posted by davejay at 3:54 PM on November 23, 2010
Wait, so yeah. I'm confused now.
She's *already* living away from you, but... you guys fight every day? And... you both complain about who left their shoes where? Not at the home you own, evidently? And, she wants to come back to your country, but not to specifically where you are?
...since you got to pick the country, let her have input into where within the country.
Seriously. This.
If it were me, and it's not, I wouldn't want to move to another country for someone if it were like, Unemploymentistan or the Republic of Corn Field. If it were London, ok. Sure! I could get a job there.
And then she has to recognize where you could get a job and be happy too.
If your update is what's going on, she's willing to move really far for you. If she's really your "special angel with the hair and no music dancing," then yeah— meet her halfway. It doesn't have to be a long time. A year or two.
And when you get there, get into couples counseling to work on the other bits.
posted by functionequalsform at 4:00 PM on November 23, 2010
She's *already* living away from you, but... you guys fight every day? And... you both complain about who left their shoes where? Not at the home you own, evidently? And, she wants to come back to your country, but not to specifically where you are?
...since you got to pick the country, let her have input into where within the country.
Seriously. This.
If it were me, and it's not, I wouldn't want to move to another country for someone if it were like, Unemploymentistan or the Republic of Corn Field. If it were London, ok. Sure! I could get a job there.
And then she has to recognize where you could get a job and be happy too.
If your update is what's going on, she's willing to move really far for you. If she's really your "special angel with the hair and no music dancing," then yeah— meet her halfway. It doesn't have to be a long time. A year or two.
And when you get there, get into couples counseling to work on the other bits.
posted by functionequalsform at 4:00 PM on November 23, 2010
If you were cheating on her or being a terrible father or spending the family's life savings on crack cocaine, "*no exceptions*" would be a reasonable request.
Outside of those situations, an individual's inability to show compromise in a relationship is a big "WE NEED OUTSIDE HELP" flag.
posted by griphus at 4:01 PM on November 23, 2010
Outside of those situations, an individual's inability to show compromise in a relationship is a big "WE NEED OUTSIDE HELP" flag.
posted by griphus at 4:01 PM on November 23, 2010
From what you've told us, I say DTMFA.
But I agree with others that something about this feels wrong. Do you acknowledge that she's making sacrifices for you? Are you willing to make sacrifices for her? Do you respect her ambitions? Do you respect her? Color me skeptical.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:29 PM on November 23, 2010
But I agree with others that something about this feels wrong. Do you acknowledge that she's making sacrifices for you? Are you willing to make sacrifices for her? Do you respect her ambitions? Do you respect her? Color me skeptical.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:29 PM on November 23, 2010
When a person is frustrated and doesn't know how to express it constructively, she can wind up angry and resentful, and unlikely to communicate well. Therapy would be good because she's be able to say how she feels and know she is being heard, and because the therapist would set out guidelines for how to discuss it without accusations, name-calling, sarcasm, etc.
Therapy would help you in those same ways. You might not need more than a few sessions, if you both can agree to argue in ways that lead you out of your current tangle of emotions and needs, instead of enmeshing you further.
posted by wryly at 5:16 PM on November 23, 2010
Therapy would help you in those same ways. You might not need more than a few sessions, if you both can agree to argue in ways that lead you out of your current tangle of emotions and needs, instead of enmeshing you further.
posted by wryly at 5:16 PM on November 23, 2010
Yeah, your update makes me trust what you've said even less. So this isn't some pipe-dream that she has to have a better career, like you initially presented it as? You aren't even living together? What about these daily shoe fights?
The thing is, yeah, all the things that you say about her make her sound like a crazy lunatic. And so people have piled on because, of course, why would you move away from your stable, nice life for this crazy person? And by framing the question with all this unnecessary information demonizing your spouse, you've automatically biased all of AskMefi to tell you what you want to hear. It's this initial way you framed the question that clued me into the shadiness.
Because if you take out the "she's a crazy bitch" part of the question, and just focus on the issue at hand - her anger is completely legitimate. She has put her career on hold for six years for the sake of yours, and you don't recognize or appreciate that. You're dismissive of her career ambitions and condescendingly think buying her things makes up for it.
Do you actually appreciate the sacrifice she made for you? Do you automatically assume that she should give up her dreams for the sake of your career? Why do you think the only solution is for her to "compromise" and move back to where you want to live? She has already spent six years of her life with her career on hold for the sake of your career, when is it your turn to compromise?
Also, nothing you've said here, in your initial post or update, makes me think you think of her as an equal. Honestly, it doesn't sound like this relationship is right for either of you. You are both acting selfishly. You've become used to putting your interests above hers. And now she's turning the table and putting her interests above yours. That's a dead end for a relationship. You *both* have to compromise. It sounds like she has. It doesn't sound like you have.
Ultimately, the internet can't diagnose this situation, especially not from the information you've given. You clearly need to sit down with a marriage counselor, some sort of third party, and work this out.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 5:35 PM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
The thing is, yeah, all the things that you say about her make her sound like a crazy lunatic. And so people have piled on because, of course, why would you move away from your stable, nice life for this crazy person? And by framing the question with all this unnecessary information demonizing your spouse, you've automatically biased all of AskMefi to tell you what you want to hear. It's this initial way you framed the question that clued me into the shadiness.
Because if you take out the "she's a crazy bitch" part of the question, and just focus on the issue at hand - her anger is completely legitimate. She has put her career on hold for six years for the sake of yours, and you don't recognize or appreciate that. You're dismissive of her career ambitions and condescendingly think buying her things makes up for it.
Do you actually appreciate the sacrifice she made for you? Do you automatically assume that she should give up her dreams for the sake of your career? Why do you think the only solution is for her to "compromise" and move back to where you want to live? She has already spent six years of her life with her career on hold for the sake of your career, when is it your turn to compromise?
Also, nothing you've said here, in your initial post or update, makes me think you think of her as an equal. Honestly, it doesn't sound like this relationship is right for either of you. You are both acting selfishly. You've become used to putting your interests above hers. And now she's turning the table and putting her interests above yours. That's a dead end for a relationship. You *both* have to compromise. It sounds like she has. It doesn't sound like you have.
Ultimately, the internet can't diagnose this situation, especially not from the information you've given. You clearly need to sit down with a marriage counselor, some sort of third party, and work this out.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 5:35 PM on November 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
Gut feeling? Even after all the reading and reading and more reading?
"...She tends not to stick to one thing". You go over there and stand next to the Masters degree, book, restaurant, invitation printing business, movie screenplay, online business, and other things.
Forget counseling. Forget it all - she's made her choice, and is just trying to provoke you to "fire" her so that she's not responsible for the decision to end the marriage.
She's 28 and you're 36 - six years ago, you didn't choose a peer, you chose drama. She didn't choose you, she chose an enabler. Just like those other things didn't work out, neither will this. And I am never this nihilistic.
posted by peagood at 6:50 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
"...She tends not to stick to one thing". You go over there and stand next to the Masters degree, book, restaurant, invitation printing business, movie screenplay, online business, and other things.
Forget counseling. Forget it all - she's made her choice, and is just trying to provoke you to "fire" her so that she's not responsible for the decision to end the marriage.
She's 28 and you're 36 - six years ago, you didn't choose a peer, you chose drama. She didn't choose you, she chose an enabler. Just like those other things didn't work out, neither will this. And I am never this nihilistic.
posted by peagood at 6:50 PM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I always find myself as the devil's advocate in these one-sided Relationship filter questions. However:
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything...
This is something I can see happened very easily in relationships with your dynamics - you're 8 years older than her, you've been together since she was 22 (ie probably while she was in college or shortly thereafter). You've had more time to build a career, and progress in it. Your career was probably up and running before hers, so it silently took priority over all of her potential futures. You got to pick what you wanted to do, but she has quietly built her life around yours.
Additionally, the way you describe your wife is very strange - it's like you're talking about your spoiled daughter, not your equal. Why shouldn't she buy things? And if there's a reason why she shouldn't, (even if the reason is just that it bothers you) why can't she both know that and be part of the financial decision making process as an equal.
I don't think actually think you are in the wrong - moving to a new city might not be the right decision right now (but why does it have to be ruled out forever?). However, if the problem you really want to solve is to restore a healthy relationship with your wife, acting from a place of contempt will not help anything.
posted by fermezporte at 7:03 PM on November 23, 2010
She says she wants me to admit the sacrifices she's made to be with me. She says that she's given up a lot to stay with me these past six years in our city. She says I haven't given up anything...
This is something I can see happened very easily in relationships with your dynamics - you're 8 years older than her, you've been together since she was 22 (ie probably while she was in college or shortly thereafter). You've had more time to build a career, and progress in it. Your career was probably up and running before hers, so it silently took priority over all of her potential futures. You got to pick what you wanted to do, but she has quietly built her life around yours.
Additionally, the way you describe your wife is very strange - it's like you're talking about your spoiled daughter, not your equal. Why shouldn't she buy things? And if there's a reason why she shouldn't, (even if the reason is just that it bothers you) why can't she both know that and be part of the financial decision making process as an equal.
I don't think actually think you are in the wrong - moving to a new city might not be the right decision right now (but why does it have to be ruled out forever?). However, if the problem you really want to solve is to restore a healthy relationship with your wife, acting from a place of contempt will not help anything.
posted by fermezporte at 7:03 PM on November 23, 2010
I don't understand. You say you've both "lived in our city" throughout the relationship, but now you say she is "currently working in another country". When did she move? Why did she move? What was the conversation like about her move beforehand? Is she a native of the country she's currently living in or of the one *you* live in? It seems to me that the answers to those questions are pretty damn important because they relate strongly to what she's saying about moving and sacrifices.
posted by andraste at 9:54 PM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by andraste at 9:54 PM on November 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
This part, at the very start of your question, is what gives me pause (emphasis mine).
posted by larkery at 5:57 AM on November 24, 2010
My wife says that if she wants to move, and I don't, that I'm not putting her first. She says she wants proof that I would do anything for her because relationships are based on compromise.Most successful relationships probably do involve compromise, but putting her first is not compromising. My dictionary says
a middle state between conflicting opinions or actions reached by mutual concession or modification.Her position as presented here does not seem to involve mutual concession, except in claiming some previous decisions as sacrifices. I don't think it's a compromise to unilaterally make some choices you see as concessions and then to hold them as currency for future disputes, unless that was made explicit at the time.
posted by larkery at 5:57 AM on November 24, 2010
We've lived in our city throughout our relationship....She has a managerial position in government, with a good salary.
She is currently working in another country, in a marketing and design capacity.
Can you clarify? This makes no sense to me.
posted by tristeza at 8:08 AM on November 24, 2010
She is currently working in another country, in a marketing and design capacity.
Can you clarify? This makes no sense to me.
posted by tristeza at 8:08 AM on November 24, 2010
You two sound just like my ex-husband and me right before I asked him for a divorce. The fighting constantly, the fighting styles, the things she's accusing you of, your attitudes, the fact that she's now overseas enjoying herself alone and saying she'll come home to you IF AND ONLY IF you change in ways you don't seem to comprehend. She's checking out of the relationship. You have my deepest sympathies.
posted by lizbunny at 11:21 AM on November 24, 2010
posted by lizbunny at 11:21 AM on November 24, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:42 AM on November 23, 2010 [5 favorites]