I'm taking a company to court for non-payment. Considering filing for dismissal and need opinions on the situation.
November 19, 2010 2:26 PM Subscribe
I'm taking a company to court for non-payment. Considering filing for dismissal and need opinions on the situation.
According to a contract I made with a marketing company they where to pay me X amount of money per hour and I was to provide them with "a detailed breakdown of hours worked".
At the end of the contract, I sent them an invoice. The invoice included my hours, and what I did during those hours in general (IE: research - 10 hours, consulting - 10 hours ect).
They followed up that I have not provided them with enough details about what has been accomplished. Unforchantly, I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job".
I spent $200 to file a civil claim against them, and they countered it with the argument that I have not provided them with detailed enough records and charged for an additional 4 hours of "unauthorized" overtime. I will owe them upwards of 1500$ if I lose because of "executive rate for time spent in court, travel to court, rental of car ect.
They owe me $1100 for two weeks worth of work. I'm considering just letting this go.
What do you think I should do?
According to a contract I made with a marketing company they where to pay me X amount of money per hour and I was to provide them with "a detailed breakdown of hours worked".
At the end of the contract, I sent them an invoice. The invoice included my hours, and what I did during those hours in general (IE: research - 10 hours, consulting - 10 hours ect).
They followed up that I have not provided them with enough details about what has been accomplished. Unforchantly, I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job".
I spent $200 to file a civil claim against them, and they countered it with the argument that I have not provided them with detailed enough records and charged for an additional 4 hours of "unauthorized" overtime. I will owe them upwards of 1500$ if I lose because of "executive rate for time spent in court, travel to court, rental of car ect.
They owe me $1100 for two weeks worth of work. I'm considering just letting this go.
What do you think I should do?
Maybe you could just provide them with proper backup for the hours you feel solid about and tell them you're dropping your request for payment for the rest.
posted by facetious at 2:34 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by facetious at 2:34 PM on November 19, 2010
This is not legal advice, but just my humble two cents: sounds like a company that has some experience in yanking the chain of others. Their so-called "executive rate" threat is nonsense and unless you agreed to that in a contract, this is just their way of trying to make you think twice about pursuing them in court.
You have two choices:
- fight it, in which you will demonstrate what expectations were made of you in the contract and how you fulfilled them. If you win, there's still no guarantee that you'll get paid, and you'll be out the $200 fee plus the time you wasted in pursuing this in court. More likely here that you'd be settling with having a moral victory.
- walk away and write off the loss as a lesson learned.
posted by runningdogofcapitalism at 2:37 PM on November 19, 2010
You have two choices:
- fight it, in which you will demonstrate what expectations were made of you in the contract and how you fulfilled them. If you win, there's still no guarantee that you'll get paid, and you'll be out the $200 fee plus the time you wasted in pursuing this in court. More likely here that you'd be settling with having a moral victory.
- walk away and write off the loss as a lesson learned.
posted by runningdogofcapitalism at 2:37 PM on November 19, 2010
I know you tried to answer this, but why not give them an invoice like:
research on customer demographics in University (specify which university) library, Oct. 24: 3.5 hours
research on delivery vectors via Internet, Oct. 26: 1.5 hours
consulting with Jeff Mayer re: mailer prep workflow, Nov. 3-4: 4.5 hours
---
If you don't have that degree of reporting, then your best bet is to negotiate with the client for an estimated time that's going to be less than your original, admittedly vague invoice.
In short -- I do think your invoice sounds like it wasn't specific enough. I can't say whether the client is acting in good faith, but they _may_ be acting in good faith, or at least their requirements haven't been proved to be unreasonable.
You could start by asking them for an example of an invoice that is detailed enough.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job" ' -- what you mean by this will affect your strategy a lot.
posted by amtho at 2:38 PM on November 19, 2010
research on customer demographics in University (specify which university) library, Oct. 24: 3.5 hours
research on delivery vectors via Internet, Oct. 26: 1.5 hours
consulting with Jeff Mayer re: mailer prep workflow, Nov. 3-4: 4.5 hours
---
If you don't have that degree of reporting, then your best bet is to negotiate with the client for an estimated time that's going to be less than your original, admittedly vague invoice.
In short -- I do think your invoice sounds like it wasn't specific enough. I can't say whether the client is acting in good faith, but they _may_ be acting in good faith, or at least their requirements haven't been proved to be unreasonable.
You could start by asking them for an example of an invoice that is detailed enough.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job" ' -- what you mean by this will affect your strategy a lot.
posted by amtho at 2:38 PM on November 19, 2010
Response by poster: ***
I'm not sure what you mean by 'I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job" ' -- what you mean by this will affect your strategy a lot.
***
Basically, I was assigned to a marketing project that did not achieve the results they wanted. However, that was not my problem as I was hired as a consultant. I simple can not provide them with lists ECT as they never specified that to me in contract.
posted by audio at 2:44 PM on November 19, 2010
I'm not sure what you mean by 'I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job" ' -- what you mean by this will affect your strategy a lot.
***
Basically, I was assigned to a marketing project that did not achieve the results they wanted. However, that was not my problem as I was hired as a consultant. I simple can not provide them with lists ECT as they never specified that to me in contract.
posted by audio at 2:44 PM on November 19, 2010
I will owe them upwards of 1500$ if I lose because of "executive rate for time spent in court, travel to court, rental of car ect.
In the US, we have the "American Rule" re attorney fees, which is, generally, that each side pays for their own unless attorney fees are provided by statute, rule, or contract. Costs generally are awarded to the prevailing party but the costs allowable are fairly limited (e.g. filing fees, expert fees for those experts who testified at trial).
This does not prevent most parties from claiming attorney fees just because they won whether there is a contractual or statutory provision for it or not and it damn sure doesn't prevent parties from trying to recover costs for time off of work, travel, new court suit, etc.
Dunno the law in Canada, but check out what you are truly at risk for before you dismiss a case due to that risk.
posted by Jezebella at 3:10 PM on November 19, 2010
In the US, we have the "American Rule" re attorney fees, which is, generally, that each side pays for their own unless attorney fees are provided by statute, rule, or contract. Costs generally are awarded to the prevailing party but the costs allowable are fairly limited (e.g. filing fees, expert fees for those experts who testified at trial).
This does not prevent most parties from claiming attorney fees just because they won whether there is a contractual or statutory provision for it or not and it damn sure doesn't prevent parties from trying to recover costs for time off of work, travel, new court suit, etc.
Dunno the law in Canada, but check out what you are truly at risk for before you dismiss a case due to that risk.
posted by Jezebella at 3:10 PM on November 19, 2010
How 'bout taking them to small claims court? Don't know what the rules are in Ab, but here in Qc, businesses are now allowed to take other party to small claim court.
posted by bluefrog at 4:03 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by bluefrog at 4:03 PM on November 19, 2010
I get that they didn't specify in detail how you should spend your time. That's OK. Just specify how you _actually spent_ the time -- it's a report of what happened. The generous interpretation is that they want to be sure you actually did the work, and providing detail helps demonstrate that. Specifying what kind of research, where, and how long on each part will demonstrate that you followed a sensible process, and that even if the results weren't what they hoped for, you did your part -- other forces could be to blame for the bad result.
posted by amtho at 6:08 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by amtho at 6:08 PM on November 19, 2010
>>Unforchantly, I can't provide that to them otherwise they will try to pin me legally for "not doing my job".
DID you do your job? Then how can they legally pin you for not doing it? Were *results* for the marketing project part of the agreement?
>>I will owe them upwards of 1500$ if I lose because of "executive rate for time spent in court, travel to court, rental of car ect.
Was this part of your contract with them? Normally parties to a lawsuit are responsible for their respective litigation expenses - but if you agreed to pay their fees, yeah, that's a concern.
FWIW, "I worked 10 hours researching and 10 hours consulting" doesn't strike me as a "detailed breakdown of hours worked." That doesn't necessarily mean you're not entitled to payment, but that's pretty vague - how are you supposed to know what they did?
posted by J. Wilson at 6:10 PM on November 19, 2010
DID you do your job? Then how can they legally pin you for not doing it? Were *results* for the marketing project part of the agreement?
>>I will owe them upwards of 1500$ if I lose because of "executive rate for time spent in court, travel to court, rental of car ect.
Was this part of your contract with them? Normally parties to a lawsuit are responsible for their respective litigation expenses - but if you agreed to pay their fees, yeah, that's a concern.
FWIW, "I worked 10 hours researching and 10 hours consulting" doesn't strike me as a "detailed breakdown of hours worked." That doesn't necessarily mean you're not entitled to payment, but that's pretty vague - how are you supposed to know what they did?
posted by J. Wilson at 6:10 PM on November 19, 2010
er, that should read "how are _they_ supposed to know what _you_ did?"
posted by J. Wilson at 6:13 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by J. Wilson at 6:13 PM on November 19, 2010
FWIW, "I worked 10 hours researching and 10 hours consulting" doesn't strike me as a "detailed breakdown of hours worked."
Same here. I'm a consultant, and that would never cut it with any client I work with. That's not a detailed breakdown of hours by any stretch of the imagination. Those are just broad buckets of time.
Basically, I was assigned to a marketing project that did not achieve the results they wanted. However, that was not my problem as I was hired as a consultant.
You're a consultant - you are paid to produce a result. Whatever it takes to get there (within some bounds) doesn't really matter. If you can't, then you shouldn't get paid.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:56 PM on November 19, 2010
Same here. I'm a consultant, and that would never cut it with any client I work with. That's not a detailed breakdown of hours by any stretch of the imagination. Those are just broad buckets of time.
Basically, I was assigned to a marketing project that did not achieve the results they wanted. However, that was not my problem as I was hired as a consultant.
You're a consultant - you are paid to produce a result. Whatever it takes to get there (within some bounds) doesn't really matter. If you can't, then you shouldn't get paid.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:56 PM on November 19, 2010
You're a consultant - you are paid to produce a result. Whatever it takes to get there (within some bounds) doesn't really matter. If you can't, then you shouldn't get paid.
Eh, not so much. We don't really know the details here, but generally consultants are paid for services rendered. For a marketing consultant, that means getting paid for the work they performed, whether or not that results in new customers or better brand awareness or whatever else the goals of the marketing campaign were. The only thing that really matters here is the contract (written, oral, and implied) between the OP and the company. The contract should specify what the OP was supposed to do and how much he/she should be paid in return.
I'm still not understanding why you can't provide a better justification of how you spent your time. It's pretty common practice when being paid by the hour to document your time for use in preparing invoices, but I don't see why you can't come up with a reasonable statement now. Surely you remember something about what you were doing when you worked on this project? Do you have any notes or documents from your research that you can show? You spent that time doing something, just tell them what that something was.
A "detailed breakdown of hours worked" means something like "11/19/10 - 1.25 hours - Conference call with Joe Schmoe and Rumpelstiltskin Townsend re. XYZ promotion strategy. 11/19/10 - .75 hours - Library research on direct mail response rates for shoe promotions targeting Venusians aged 25-45." Just saying "Consulting - 10 hours" really doesn't cut it.
You guys are quibbling about 4 hours worth of work here. Why not give them a more complete invoice based on your best recollection, show them your notes and records so they can see you did something, and make a compromise offer?
posted by zachlipton at 9:26 PM on November 19, 2010
Eh, not so much. We don't really know the details here, but generally consultants are paid for services rendered. For a marketing consultant, that means getting paid for the work they performed, whether or not that results in new customers or better brand awareness or whatever else the goals of the marketing campaign were. The only thing that really matters here is the contract (written, oral, and implied) between the OP and the company. The contract should specify what the OP was supposed to do and how much he/she should be paid in return.
I'm still not understanding why you can't provide a better justification of how you spent your time. It's pretty common practice when being paid by the hour to document your time for use in preparing invoices, but I don't see why you can't come up with a reasonable statement now. Surely you remember something about what you were doing when you worked on this project? Do you have any notes or documents from your research that you can show? You spent that time doing something, just tell them what that something was.
A "detailed breakdown of hours worked" means something like "11/19/10 - 1.25 hours - Conference call with Joe Schmoe and Rumpelstiltskin Townsend re. XYZ promotion strategy. 11/19/10 - .75 hours - Library research on direct mail response rates for shoe promotions targeting Venusians aged 25-45." Just saying "Consulting - 10 hours" really doesn't cut it.
You guys are quibbling about 4 hours worth of work here. Why not give them a more complete invoice based on your best recollection, show them your notes and records so they can see you did something, and make a compromise offer?
posted by zachlipton at 9:26 PM on November 19, 2010
I sense that you don't really think that they owe you the money. If you felt that they owed you you wouldn't be so willing to drop your suit. It's unclear why you don't think you have a good case and why they could "pin you for not doing the job".
If you feel confident that you would lose the case, drop it.
posted by naplesyellow at 11:57 PM on November 19, 2010
If you feel confident that you would lose the case, drop it.
posted by naplesyellow at 11:57 PM on November 19, 2010
I spent $200 to file a civil claim against them, and they countered it with the argument that I have not provided them with detailed enough records and charged for an additional 4 hours of "unauthorized" overtime. I will owe them upwards of 1500$ if I lose because of "executive rate for time spent in court, travel to court, rental of car ect.
Even if you lose, the judge may not award them that. I've "lost" cases where my adversary's claim for fees and expenses was dramatically higher than what the judge actually awarded. Judges are often very skeptical of inflated statements of attorney fees and costs.
posted by jayder at 5:24 AM on November 20, 2010
Even if you lose, the judge may not award them that. I've "lost" cases where my adversary's claim for fees and expenses was dramatically higher than what the judge actually awarded. Judges are often very skeptical of inflated statements of attorney fees and costs.
posted by jayder at 5:24 AM on November 20, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Also: Lawyer.
posted by IndigoRain at 2:34 PM on November 19, 2010