Should I quit my job to live abroad with my girlfriend who will be working on getting her PhD?
November 15, 2010 5:38 PM   Subscribe

My girlfriend's company has offered to pay for her PhD. However, for one reason or another, they would like her to get it abroad (outside of the US). Should she accept? Details inside.

My girlfriend (K), and I have been dating very happily for about two years and have been living together for one. We've discussed our future and it's clear that both of us are in it for the long haul. We're both 25 and are just beginning of our careers.

K is a scientist currently with a masters degree in a low level position of her company. She is happy and earning a modest salary. K is extremely smart with a ton of potential. She was recently approached by an executive within her company who stated they would like to pay for her PhD. Although she hasn't been given a significant amount of detail yet, they stated her schooling and living expenses would be paid. They said she could essentially choose the location anywhere outside of the US (Let's assume K will be able to get into the school of her choice). Sounds great! Right?

Well, I'm not doing too shabby for myself either...

I'm currently in a four year IT leadership program within a Fortune 500 company and will be "graduating" next fall. This program has enabled me to gain a significant amount of experience and exposure in a relatively short period of time. I am currently managing an area with a small staff and will be assuming additional responsibilities within the near future. The amount of responsibility I have at my age within my company is uncommon. I expect to continue to climb the corporate ladder in the years to come.

This seems like one of those once in a lifetime opportunities. We'll be able to live abroad, K will get her PhD, and we'll gain a lot of life experience. The only thing holding us back is my job. We had been anticipating I would be the breadwinner, if we move, my future would be much less clear.

What would you do?
posted by cad to Work & Money (39 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
Are you suggesting that your Fortune 500 experience is not transferable/applicable to a job you could possibly find abroad? (I would find this hard to believe, but you'd know better than I..)

Otherwise I'd say go for it ..
posted by The Biggest Dreamer at 5:47 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


In the United States, PhD students in the sciences and engineering do not pay for their own degree work, and they are typically provided with a stipend that covers living costs.

This is how science training in the US works. PhD science students are typically paid for by government research grants (and teaching assistantships).

"I'll pay for your PhD" is therefore kind of a weird offer for an employer in the US to be making to a scientist. The "foreign" part is even weirder. I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of PhD programs worldwide, but as far as I know, in most countries doing world-class research, the student does not pay for the program.

Some more detail would be helpful, I suppose. What field? You say the company has specified a foreign institution "for one reason or another". Do you know those reasons?

This all strikes me as highly irregular.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:49 PM on November 15, 2010 [25 favorites]


You've got your entire life to climb the corporate ladder. It's been a long time gone that the job you have at 25 defines either you or the trajectory of your life, regardless of how much responsibility you have.

On the other hand, invitations to adventures in foreign locales don't exactly drop in your lap on a daily basis. The time for when an unclear future ceases to be an exciting thing fast approaches! Get the hell out of here while you can!
posted by griphus at 5:51 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


I think you should talk to your boss in your company to see if they would have opportunities for you to work abroad. Most Fortune 500 companies have an international presence so it is distinctly possible that if you could work abroad, then K could pick a school close to where your job is. Best of both worlds. Plus, international experience usually makes you more promotable.
posted by bove at 5:52 PM on November 15, 2010


I share mr_roboto's skepticism.

That said, if you're absolutely 100% positive that the deal isn't too good to be true (and that you can get a visa to reside and work in said foreign country), I'd say to go for it!
posted by schmod at 5:54 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


I was told that you can't buy a PhD by someone who was in a PhD program here in the U.S.

You can buy a masters degree, but PhD's are decided by merit. Maybe it's different out in the larger world.
posted by Max Power at 5:55 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


Have you guys thought about the immigration issues? Highly dependent on the country you end up in. For example, because you aren't married and she'll probably be over on some sort of student visa (so she won't be allowed to work) it's unclear that you'll be allowed to stay with her for any length of time. Also, it might be very hard in this global economic slump for you to get any sort of work visa in a foreign country (they tend to like jobs going to their own citizens first).

The best situation is if your company will send you abroad for a couple years to the same place your gf wants to study. Then you don't lose much time climbing that corporate ladder. And let the corporate lawyers earn their pay working out the visa and work permits for you.

At worst... you'll be home and you can enjoy some awesome vacations visiting her.
posted by sbutler at 5:57 PM on November 15, 2010


Does your Fortune 500 company have offices in the countries where your girlfriend is thinking of going?

Put together a plan to propose to the powers that be of the advantages of having your skill set in another region ... covering broader hours, closer alignment with globalisation policies, decentralise administation, leveraging synergies, whatever management catchphrase bingo is popular at your particular workplace.

But make the tangible benefits real. Cost savings. Alignment with initiatives. Closer working relationship with the business customers by moving to a site with less layers of IT management. Taking the Graduate program you have been a part of and fostering it in another region, providing capable employees for the company across the globe.

Depending on where you go, it could be cheaper for the company to pay you at that remote location (say if you were going from New York to Manila, or from London to Sydney Australia).

Thats what I would do, though I don't know the culture of your company.
posted by Admira at 5:58 PM on November 15, 2010


What would I do? I'd get out and see the world while I'm still in my 20s. If you're an overachiever now you'll be an overachiever when you're 27 but you'll never be 25 with an opportunity to live in a foreign country again.
posted by bitdamaged at 5:59 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


Have you guys thought about the immigration issues? Highly dependent on the country you end up in. For example, because you aren't married and she'll probably be over on some sort of student visa (so she won't be allowed to work) it's unclear that you'll be allowed to stay with her for any length of time.

This is a good point. I've known a few couples who have been in a similar situation, and they just wound up getting married. It's really too much of a pain in the ass otherwise (if not completely impossible).
posted by mr_roboto at 6:00 PM on November 15, 2010


If you're an overachiever now you'll be an overachiever when you're 27 but you'll never be 25 with an opportunity to live in a foreign country again.

Another thing to note: A short PhD program runs four years (PhD programs in the UK are typically limited to four years, if fast is what you're looking for). You should be aware that you're looking at a 4-6 year commitment here.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:03 PM on November 15, 2010


She could basically have her PhD paid for as a TA/RA anyway. Seems weird and freaky. Get more details.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:08 PM on November 15, 2010


"I'll pay for your PhD" is therefore kind of a weird offer for an employer in the US to be making to a scientist. The "foreign" part is even weirder.

Actually it makes complete sense. PhDs take forever in the US and they're basically telling her they'll support her through a normal course of study, say 3 years research and possibly an additional one year writing but they're not interested in the decade long open-ended clusterfucks that have become the norm in the US.

Almost undoubtedly they've been burned by the US university system before under this kind of scenario, pretty much all science organizations have. You spend years and elevent-y million dollars supporting a fellowship and in the end you don't get anything for it.
posted by fshgrl at 6:10 PM on November 15, 2010 [5 favorites]


Response by poster: mr_roboto - I was unaware that's how it typically works in the US, that's great information to know. She works in Research and Development for a consumer products company. The product she works on is distributed worldwide and tailored to specific regions. This may be why they are pushing her to get the degree outside the US.

She had been informally approached several times in the past by a senior leader within her company - "You should really think about getting your PhD etc. etc.". It wasn't until today that she was pulled into the office of the same senior leader who keeps asking her and was seriously spoken to about this. We both know very little about the specifics, she'll be getting more details this week.

My skills are very transferable. I'm a bit risk averse, which is why this could potentially be a tough decision, but I know I would land on my feet. I'm just uneasy leaving my position knowing I've worked hard to get where I am and could possibly just be throwing it away.
posted by cad at 6:11 PM on November 15, 2010


All the people saying she can pay her way as an RA/TA- where you do you think the money to pay the RA/TAs comes from? People who want research done give it to the university (with 40% overhead mind) and increasingly often they don't get anything back for it because the student never finishes.
posted by fshgrl at 6:13 PM on November 15, 2010


Actually it makes complete sense. PhDs take forever in the US and they're basically telling her they'll support her through a normal course of study, say 3 years research and possibly an additional one year writing but they're not interested in the decade long open-ended clusterfucks that have become the norm in the US.

My impression has been that this is true in the humanities but not in the sciences (or most social sciences), especially if you choose programs wisely. In the U.S., the PhD to faculty path has stretched out to that long for science fields only because of the emphasis on doing postdocs. Since the OP's SO has a job lined up, postdocs would not be required.
posted by parkerjackson at 6:17 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the money's gotta come from somewhere; most are funded by fellowships/government and the like, but having her company sponsor her would save her from applying to and acquiring competitive funding elsewhere, as far as I understand.

cad, you don't have to look at your situation as throwing your hard work away... you're building and expanding upon it. :)
posted by The Biggest Dreamer at 6:17 PM on November 15, 2010


PhDs take forever in the US and they're basically telling her they'll support her through a normal course of study, say 3 years research and possibly an additional one year writing but they're not interested in the decade long open-ended clusterfucks that have become the norm in the US.

Yeah, those are humanity PhDs. The typical US science PhD depends on field, of course. Engineering PhDs are not unusual in 4-5 years. Without data in front of me, I would guess the typical science/engineering PhD in the US is five years.



People who want research done give it to the university (with 40% overhead mind) and increasingly often they don't get anything back for it because the student never finishes.

Contract-work is not the norm, though it's not unheard of in some engineering fields. Typically contracts are made with a specific professor at a specific institution, though. This situation is unusual.

Also, it's unusual for a qualified science PhD student to not finish. For students who make it through the screening exam (usually at the end of the first year), I would guess completion rates are on the order of 80-90%. Again, I don't have the data in front of me; this is based on experiences at three research universities in the US.



Yeah, the money's gotta come from somewhere; most are funded by fellowships/government and the like, but having her company sponsor her would save her from applying to and acquiring competitive funding elsewhere, as far as I understand.

Typically, the competitive funding acquisition is a task for the professor. It's not something that students should have to worry about. If you're worrying about competing for funding, there's something wrong with your program.


She works in Research and Development for a consumer products company.

Which field would she be applying for a PhD in?
posted by mr_roboto at 6:27 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


Do it. There's so much more to life than getting a solid grip on the corporate ladder.
posted by wilful at 6:31 PM on November 15, 2010


My impression has been that this is true in the humanities but not in the sciences

Incorrect. 50% of all US doctorates take more than 7 years. Everyone I know took at least 7 years, many were there 8 or 9. Which is mind boggling if you think about it.

I just took my MS and went and got a research job and 10 years of experience. Now I'm hiring PhDs with less experience to work for me. It's a stupid system.
posted by fshgrl at 6:39 PM on November 15, 2010


Contract-work is not the norm, though it's not unheard of in some engineering fields.

Grants are contracts too my friend. And granting agencies typically like it a lot better if the recipient actually does what they were supposed to do with the money.
posted by fshgrl at 6:41 PM on November 15, 2010


Response by poster: Which field would she be applying for a PhD in?

Chemistry or Chemical Engineering
posted by cad at 6:46 PM on November 15, 2010


My husband did his Ph.D. in 4 years, with a full ride from the National Science Foundation; some of his colleagues did their Ph.D.s part-time with the help of their employers.

I would suggest that your gf start out by looking into what her options for staying where she is and pursuing her Ph.D. might be. She might be able to find a better deal than her company is offering her; she might not.

You can't buy a Ph.D., but you can pay tuition to be enrolled in a Ph.D. program. It is true that at some point it is up to the student to write a defensible dissertation (or equivalent set of articles, etc.) but if you're not up against a funding wall that makes everything easier.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:48 PM on November 15, 2010


Grants are contracts too my friend.

No they aren't; and the differences are important.

But this is getting far afield from the question. I suppose the relevant point is that this situation is unusual.

Chemistry or Chemical Engineering

OK; I'm quite familiar with both of these fields, so I will reiterate that K's situation is unusual. Seek clarification before proceeding.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:55 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


PhD programs in the US might pay a stipend, but check and see what the company means by living expenses--I'm going to guess that since they are sending her overseas, they might be willing to cover housing and more, plus a reasonable salary.

I lived overseas for two years, and met lots of expats from all around the world. Even the people who didn't love that particular country or everything about the expat life was so glad to have the opportunity to live abroad.

At the end of life, no one says, "I wish I had worked more and traveled less!" I never met anyone who regretted moving overseas. This is an amazing opportunity, and I encourage you to go for it. I am certain you will not regret it.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:57 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


fshgrl-- that data is a little misleading. There are a large number of people who drift off ABD and never finish. After 10 years, the probability of finishing is effectively zero (especially since classes and comps expire). If we just limit the world to the people who finish within 10 years (assuming that's 99% of all that will ever finish), more than half of engineering students finish within 5 years.

If we were able to limit the world to "people who are funded and don't have to worry about real jobs" and "people with a clear goal in attending grad school", I bet the 5-year completion rate goes much higher. There's a lot of averaging that goes into those kinds of numbers.

In my field, where there are well-paying jobs to entice and people who just want to finish the PhD to get the job, I was the old fart finishing 6 years.

The take away for the OP is to get more information, because clearly we don't know why the employer would do such a thing.
posted by parkerjackson at 7:01 PM on November 15, 2010


You should do what you want to do. Not everyone needs to go have adventures in their twenties, and it sounds like you are pretty happy as you are, looking forward to a future that is understandable and relatively clear.

Some true things:

It is comforting to know what your immediate future looks like, and there are tangible benefits to sticking with a path.

If you moved, you would still have a bright future, because you are a smart and capable person.

If you stayed with your job, something could go wrong, or some other factor in your life could change, and you have to go somewhere else.

If what you and your girlfriend have IS for the long haul, several years of physical separation would be hard, but surmountable.

There is hope no matter which option you choose, which is why it has to be the option that is best for you. Seizing the day is not as great if you are only seizing it because it's what other people have told you to do. If something inside of you isn't excited about this idea, I would listen to that something. On the other hand, if something in you IS excited about it, and if the scenarios and plans recommended by other responders make you excited and give you a feeling of possibility, then that is also helpful information.
posted by ramenopres at 7:03 PM on November 15, 2010 [4 favorites]


Typically, the competitive funding acquisition is a task for the professor. It's not something that students should have to worry about. If you're worrying about competing for funding, there's something wrong with your program.

That may be true for the US, but it's different in many other countries where doctoral researchers are employed by the university and have to compete for these positions like for any other job.
posted by snownoid at 7:03 PM on November 15, 2010


I never met anyone who regretted moving overseas.

I have.

I have also met people who regretted going to a graduate program chosen by their employers over a graduate program they chose.

If the OP's GF finds a perfect match between her goals and dreams and a grad program her employers are willing to subsidize, more power to her, and then she and the OP have to figure out how they want to handle it.

But the OP's GF might also want to look at other grad programs, including some near the OP's current much-loved job, and really approach the whole thing as the important life decision it is for her and for them. It seems very very likely to me that someone whose professional expertise and potential was such that their employer wanted to invest vast sums in her education would also be someone whose professional expertise and potential was such that she could find other funding for her Ph.D. program.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:17 PM on November 15, 2010


I've heard of people getting PhDs from foreign universities, paid for by their employers, in engineering/science fields.

BUT, they lived in the US while doing it. Some non-American universities don't have course work requirements. If she's got all the course work/fundamental understanding she'd need to do her PhD all it would take is getting her research approved by an advisor, and doing the research (and paying tuition).

This sounds slightly odd to me, and I'd want much more detail. Why pay extra to get a foreign PhD? If this company has an international focus, don't they have behavioral scientists, sociologist, marketing departments for that? Chemistry isn't exactly regional.
posted by fontophilic at 8:09 PM on November 15, 2010


OK; I'm quite familiar with both of these fields, so I will reiterate that K's situation is unusual. Seek clarification before proceeding.

What also strikes me as a bit odd is that your girlfriend doesn't know this. I was pretty well-versed in the various intricacies of the science-based doctoral degree career path by the end of my undergraduate career (which largely played into my decision to not participate in it).
posted by schmod at 8:28 PM on November 15, 2010


Grants are contracts too my friend.

No they aren't; and the differences are important.


I approved and managed both grants/ cooperative agreements & straight up federal contracts for many years. I now work on the other side implementing them. They are effectively the same thing in that someone wants research done in a particular area and provides money to someone else to do it as specified. In either case there is a signed agreement that money will go from entity A to entity B and will be used as specified in the accompanying budget. There are deliverables, timetables and usually only the named staff can be paid with the money for specific activities. Legally the money can only be used as agreed upon without revising or rewriting the agreement. You can call it a cooperative agreement but it's a written agreement with very set terms so you're splitting hairs.

Anyway to the OP, my experience working with grad schools in the US and in Europe is that your girlfriend is likely to have a much more focused and expeditious graduate school experience abroad.
posted by fshgrl at 8:56 PM on November 15, 2010


Obviously this is subjective, but being abroad with my girlfriend sounds so much better than staying here and worrying about the corporate ladder. Who the hell stays with one company more than five years now anyway? I'd tell K to get some details, and while she was doing that I'd be packing up the apartment.
posted by TheShadowKnows at 9:05 PM on November 15, 2010


While this question is mostly about "should be go abroad", I'm curious about what's in it for the company? It seems really unusual.

Are they going to direct the research undertaken for the PhD? I guess then they get some research done (that presumably can't be done in an environment other than a University), and they're able to get a motivated person to do it. But then surely there's only a few Universities that could fit with the work.

Is the company going to be better off if K has a PhD after her name? Seems like 4+ years is a long wait and a big investment for that.

If these company is getting some work done, is there some reason K can't do the work anyway, without the whole PhD thing?

Or is this all a reasonable effort at developing K as an employee and gaining her loyalty in future? There are of course many other ways to do this, but presumably the PhD offer is something K finds very appealing.
posted by jjderooy at 9:24 PM on November 15, 2010


Ok, I did something similar to this.

I was working for a Tier 1 Investment Bank, already living in Europe (I'm American) when they offered me the opportunity to take a Masters in Quantitative Finance, fully funded, while still in employment for them.

Of course I took it up and there really wasn't a downside - for me, in my field at least.

That Masters cost about fifty thousands pounds, all in (i.e. foreign student tuition, books and other materials one week a term off for studying time, few other odds & ends), and I had to sign a contract stating that after I'd finished, if I left their employment within five years I'd repay this principal in full.

So they effectively locked me in for five years (seven counting the two years it took me part time to finish).

I'm not sure about K's field, but banking is highly competitive, so when the time came it would have been pretty easy to negotiate this as a signing bonus from another financial institution. I actually liked working for this particular bank so never took that route but golden handcuffs are something you'll have to be aware of.

Also taxes: more than likely this will be taxable on some level, if nothing else than any living stipends it appears K's firm may be paying. Better talk to a professional before engaging and by that I mean not only a CPA but also push any and all contracts past a Solicitor.

Finally, and not to burst your ballon, but the "we" part of living abroad?

You guys planning on getting married? Even in robust economic environments its difficult for unmarried couples to secure legal status in matters emigration related.

Any offer made by K's firm applies to her and her alone. You'd more than likely have to negotiate your own visa, etc with the relevant authorities. Keep in mind that a work visa will be difficult bordering on impossible (depending upon the country) to acquire.
posted by Mutant at 11:23 PM on November 15, 2010 [5 favorites]


Any offer made by K's firm applies to her and her alone. You'd more than likely have to negotiate your own visa, etc with the relevant authorities. Keep in mind that a work visa will be difficult bordering on impossible (depending upon the country) to acquire.

Definitely worth repeating Mutant's comment. Regardless of her own situation and the details of this offer, half your question is about you and your relationship as well. I know that for the UK they are seriously seriously clamping down on non-EU immigration. It will vary by country and you don't even mention if there are any specific countries you would both be comfortable to move to.

If you can't go with her, is this still an offer to consider?
posted by like_neon at 1:48 AM on November 16, 2010


You have good advice regarding the PhD part of things, which I can't really address, being a language and literature sort myself.

But as for the living overseas part, I'd like to reiterate what Sidhedevil and Mutant said. Namely, there are absolutely people who are originally motivated to live overseas and who later discover, for various reasons (it depends on several factors), that it's not their thing. I've lived in France for 11 years all told now, one as an undergrad exchange student, and currently as a Masters student working a regular job full-time. I can't tell you the number of starry-eyed "OMG my dream is to live in France!!!" people who have come here only to leave, whether students, employees or business creators. Multinationals plan for this sort of thing when they expatriate workers, and universities plan for it in their long-term exchange programs; they know a certain percentage will return to their home country, even with cross-cultural training beforehand. We had a required, year-long cross-cultural course before our undergrad year as exchange students, and (if I recall correctly) two out of 20 returned to the US within 1-3 months. The ones who return are, in general, those a. who don't speak the country's language, and/or b. who came along as a spouse, then couldn't find work (happens in nearly every country). The latter phenomenon is so well-known it has a name: trailing spouse.

As for what Mutant said about your own visa: "Keep in mind that a work visa will be difficult bordering on impossible (depending upon the country) to acquire." This is true. It is not an exaggeration. Your best shot would be to request an expat opportunity from your Fortune 500 company, in whichever country your girlfriend chooses, if she does end up going that route. Otherwise, marriage, but keep in mind there's no guarantee you would find work. A lot depends on the country.

All that said... if you can work out a plan for yourself, for instance marriage and freelancing (you can do that in a foreign country, but please look into details, it can be labyrinthine, and again, there is no guarantee of success), or an expat opportunity, and you recognize that being in a foreign country can be both pleasant and disorienting (the people I see hit hardest are those who deny that they'll feel disoriented, or who say that it "won't be that hard"), it can indeed be a wonderful, enriching experience.
posted by fraula at 1:53 AM on November 16, 2010


Response by poster: I really appreciate the comments and advice.

As mentioned in the post, K had been given very little detail. When she initially inquired if there was some sort of “program” within her company which offered this, the man said a “program” would be created for her. For those of you questioning the validity of this unusual situation, I completely understand, and have many of the same questions myself. You brought up excellent points and questions for her to ask. However, the intent of my post was to gather feedback on the potential ups and downs for her and I if this is in fact a reality.

Since she was just approached yesterday, and this is something neither of us are familiar with, we haven’t been able to look at it from all angles. Comments on potential Visa issues and the realities of me finding a job abroad are great. These would definitely be deal breakers whether we like it or not.

I can't tell you the number of starry-eyed "OMG my dream is to live in France!!!" people who have come here only to leave, whether students, employees or business creators.

I wouldn’t put us in this category. We’re very happy right where we are. However, assuming this is real and all the stars align (no visa issues, I get a job, etc), we both agree it would be a great life experience.

You guys planning on getting married?

Yes, we are planning on getting married.

If you can't go with her, is this still an offer to consider?

No, she’s stated if I’m unable to go, she would not go.
posted by cad at 5:23 AM on November 16, 2010


Well, I can only kind of speak for the UK, but if you are considering here then you need a job lined up before you come. Your best bet is as fraula suggests, an internal transfer because I think this is one of the few areas that the current government said they would be a bit more lenient on for restricting immigration. This might be a good article for you as it mentions the IT sector specifically. Otherwise, and I don't think I'm exaggerating here, it's going to be near impossible for you to find a comparable job as a non-EU immigrant. You need some sort of work permit to get a job and no one is going to sponsor you if they have like 100 other applicants who qualify already. Yes, another option is that you get married before you come but is this a reason you'd want to get married? That's totally cool, but it doesn't sound like you've had that discussion with the gf yet. And again, not a guarantee that you'll find a permanent job but you could think about contracting.

Other countries that I think are in similar positions and thus probably not likely for you guys: Republic of Ireland, Greece, Spain. Maybe France. Germany might be worth looking into but I know nothing about Germany and in terms of their economy, they seem to be needing to bail out other countries in the EU and so may be in a precarious situation.

Don't mean to be a negative Nancy, but it does sound like a golden opportunity for her (if it is not too good to be true) but as you have stated, the ability for you to follow her may make it a non-starter and you should be fully aware of the situation over here.
posted by like_neon at 3:17 AM on November 17, 2010


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