21-year friendship on the rocks
November 15, 2010 4:40 PM Subscribe
A friend of 20+ years and I are having relationships issues and I'm unsure of how to proceed. I need advice.
Let me start by saying I’m originally from the mid-west, but have been living on the west coast for the past 4+ years. I haven’t had much money to visit so most of my friendships have been maintained via e-mail and phone calls.
Recently I made plans with a friend to meet up for the first time in years since she was in my neck of the woods. We had a few beers, enjoyed each others company and parted ways on what seemed a positive note. I was supposed to meet her again, but decided that a 6-hour round trip to where she was staying for an evening of painful socialization with people I didn’t know or like (an ex) was just too much. On top of all that, I was experiencing car trouble recently and did not want to get stuck that far from home.
A few days later, I received an e-mail calling me out on my lying and hurtful ways. She said I didn’t take an interest in her life and that I treated her as an inconvenience. I read it and felt confident that this was something that honesty could fix. I admitted that I was being passive-aggressive about some things that had occurred earlier and that I wasn’t as emotionally available as I would have liked to have been due to my post-college depression. I apologized for my behavior and difficulty with confrontation. I mentioned the previous circumstances which had ignited my passive-aggressive feelings, including a 3-day trip to see her for what I thought would be quality friend time, but turned out to be me meeting her for lunch once. I also mentioned that she seemed attached at the hip to her ex (her current boss) and had never asked me to have any one-on-one time with her. I knew her to be level headed about situations, so I assumed this would answer some of her questions and perhaps get us on the road to a healthy friendship again. We were both hurt and I felt we had let things go for too long, but what came next just pissed me off.
She continued to call me a liar and basically laid the blame at my feet for everything. While I’m happy to take my share since I didn’t mention my issues up front, I was totally floored that she was blaming me for everything and excluding things (such as the 3-day trip) that didn’t make me look like a complete ass. I told her that if I didn’t want to be friends, why would I be trying to work this out with her? From there, it spiraled downward into low blows and questioning of my character, while I kept repeating that I was sorry, but that we were both somewhat to blame. My thoughts are that she had been stewing for a while and wanted a good fight OR that she wanted me to grovel and beg forgiveness. I was not really up for either of those and so she just got angrier. Right now, I get such cold hostility from her that I'm not sure how to initiate conversation or broach the subject of our friendship, which makes it all the more fun since, according to her, the ball is in my court. (Note: she has also been suffering from post-college depression along with other stresses in her life, although she keeps telling me everything is "perfect" now)
How should I proceed? Should I salvage this relationship? I don't know what to do.
Please send questions, and any private responses to friend.trouble21@gmail.com
Let me start by saying I’m originally from the mid-west, but have been living on the west coast for the past 4+ years. I haven’t had much money to visit so most of my friendships have been maintained via e-mail and phone calls.
Recently I made plans with a friend to meet up for the first time in years since she was in my neck of the woods. We had a few beers, enjoyed each others company and parted ways on what seemed a positive note. I was supposed to meet her again, but decided that a 6-hour round trip to where she was staying for an evening of painful socialization with people I didn’t know or like (an ex) was just too much. On top of all that, I was experiencing car trouble recently and did not want to get stuck that far from home.
A few days later, I received an e-mail calling me out on my lying and hurtful ways. She said I didn’t take an interest in her life and that I treated her as an inconvenience. I read it and felt confident that this was something that honesty could fix. I admitted that I was being passive-aggressive about some things that had occurred earlier and that I wasn’t as emotionally available as I would have liked to have been due to my post-college depression. I apologized for my behavior and difficulty with confrontation. I mentioned the previous circumstances which had ignited my passive-aggressive feelings, including a 3-day trip to see her for what I thought would be quality friend time, but turned out to be me meeting her for lunch once. I also mentioned that she seemed attached at the hip to her ex (her current boss) and had never asked me to have any one-on-one time with her. I knew her to be level headed about situations, so I assumed this would answer some of her questions and perhaps get us on the road to a healthy friendship again. We were both hurt and I felt we had let things go for too long, but what came next just pissed me off.
She continued to call me a liar and basically laid the blame at my feet for everything. While I’m happy to take my share since I didn’t mention my issues up front, I was totally floored that she was blaming me for everything and excluding things (such as the 3-day trip) that didn’t make me look like a complete ass. I told her that if I didn’t want to be friends, why would I be trying to work this out with her? From there, it spiraled downward into low blows and questioning of my character, while I kept repeating that I was sorry, but that we were both somewhat to blame. My thoughts are that she had been stewing for a while and wanted a good fight OR that she wanted me to grovel and beg forgiveness. I was not really up for either of those and so she just got angrier. Right now, I get such cold hostility from her that I'm not sure how to initiate conversation or broach the subject of our friendship, which makes it all the more fun since, according to her, the ball is in my court. (Note: she has also been suffering from post-college depression along with other stresses in her life, although she keeps telling me everything is "perfect" now)
How should I proceed? Should I salvage this relationship? I don't know what to do.
Please send questions, and any private responses to friend.trouble21@gmail.com
I'm sorry, what is there about this relationship that you want to save?
I realize that this is a rhetorical question, since you are anonymous here, but I am not seeing anything worth saving. Where's the upside to building a bridge to Shouty McBlameypants, exactly?
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:48 PM on November 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
I realize that this is a rhetorical question, since you are anonymous here, but I am not seeing anything worth saving. Where's the upside to building a bridge to Shouty McBlameypants, exactly?
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:48 PM on November 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
She doesn't want to be friends anymore. At least not for a few weeks. Give her some time to cool off and see how she's doing in January. If she's still hostile at that time, I would write her off.
posted by amethysts at 4:50 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by amethysts at 4:50 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry, what is there about this relationship that you want to save?
This. You haven't described anything that sounds at all worth all this agony and irritation.
Normal, good friendships don't involve nastiness and recrimination. Either it is fun to hang out with her and you both enjoy yourselves, or it's not. What you have described is clearly a "not." She is angry, and you have perhaps been less than totally happy. That's a bad combination, and you should wait until (if ever) both of you are in a place to be relaxed and happy with each other.
posted by Forktine at 4:57 PM on November 15, 2010
This. You haven't described anything that sounds at all worth all this agony and irritation.
Normal, good friendships don't involve nastiness and recrimination. Either it is fun to hang out with her and you both enjoy yourselves, or it's not. What you have described is clearly a "not." She is angry, and you have perhaps been less than totally happy. That's a bad combination, and you should wait until (if ever) both of you are in a place to be relaxed and happy with each other.
posted by Forktine at 4:57 PM on November 15, 2010
Nothing to overthink, really. You've behaved badly, she's behaved badly, she's called you out on it, you've acknowledged and apologized (you did apologize, right?) and called her on her bad behavior, and she won't acknowledge or apologize.
So you've done your part; send her a quick "We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this; I've acknowledged and apologized for my bad behavior, but that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for. When you know what it is you want out of me, please let me know so we can talk about it; in the meantime, I'll leave you alone."
Then concentrate on your other friends. Maybe she's going through a rough patch, maybe she's stressed out, maybe she's depressed, maybe she thinks you've done something you haven't, or maybe you've done really bad things and haven't apologized to her satisfaction. Until she's willing and able to communicate to you effectively about it, rehashing it back and forth from a distance isn't going to help either of you. Hopefully someday she'll come around, and if not, don't sweat it (after all, you did apologize, right? If that isn't good enough, and she won't tell you what would be, there's no sense in being a punching bag for her outbursts.)
posted by davejay at 5:13 PM on November 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
So you've done your part; send her a quick "We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this; I've acknowledged and apologized for my bad behavior, but that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for. When you know what it is you want out of me, please let me know so we can talk about it; in the meantime, I'll leave you alone."
Then concentrate on your other friends. Maybe she's going through a rough patch, maybe she's stressed out, maybe she's depressed, maybe she thinks you've done something you haven't, or maybe you've done really bad things and haven't apologized to her satisfaction. Until she's willing and able to communicate to you effectively about it, rehashing it back and forth from a distance isn't going to help either of you. Hopefully someday she'll come around, and if not, don't sweat it (after all, you did apologize, right? If that isn't good enough, and she won't tell you what would be, there's no sense in being a punching bag for her outbursts.)
posted by davejay at 5:13 PM on November 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
The bottom line with most personal relationships, and friendships especially, is the sense that one's life is somehow better as a result of having the other person a part of it, which is what makes putting up with/dealing with the various instances of foolishness that arise worth doing. From what you describe (and we only have your side of it), it sounds like you might want to take a pass on this relationship for awhile, lay low, and wait it out until your friend mellows a bit. It sounds like she's got a lot changes going on in her life, and you both seem young, which means that the passage of time itself might help. Sometimes that's the only thing that can.
posted by 5Q7 at 5:40 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by 5Q7 at 5:40 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I apologized for my behavior and difficulty with confrontation. I mentioned the previous circumstances which had ignited my passive-aggressive feelings... I kept repeating that I was sorry, but that we were both somewhat to blame
"I'm sorry, but..." is not an apology, and "I'm sorry, but really it's your fault I was behaving badly" is an invitation to start a fight (which you got).
If you really want to move forward with her then you should apologize full stop, wipe the slate clean, and vow in the future to communicate openly if/when you're unhappy. Yes, she was wrong, too, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what it takes to put your friendship back on track. If you two still can't get over it, then let it go for now. And for the sake of this and other friendships remember that it's nobody's fault but your own if you behave passive-aggressively.
posted by stefanie at 5:47 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
"I'm sorry, but..." is not an apology, and "I'm sorry, but really it's your fault I was behaving badly" is an invitation to start a fight (which you got).
If you really want to move forward with her then you should apologize full stop, wipe the slate clean, and vow in the future to communicate openly if/when you're unhappy. Yes, she was wrong, too, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what it takes to put your friendship back on track. If you two still can't get over it, then let it go for now. And for the sake of this and other friendships remember that it's nobody's fault but your own if you behave passive-aggressively.
posted by stefanie at 5:47 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
From what you write it seems like this isn't worth saving, but there are these big gaps in the story, like what your passive-aggressive behavior was and what the relationship in general was like during recent years. So I don't think we have enough information.
Since I don't understand why she was so angry (besides "she's irrational and mean" or something), I wonder if there's something you're missing here.
One possibility. Something in your question made me wonder if you were trying to take only partial responsibility for your behavior, by trying to get her to agree she "caused" part of it. You imply that you would have looked like less of an ass if she had included in her conversation the things that you feel she did wrong. I'm not a fan of "I did it because ___." Your actions are your responsibility; she didn't cause them; you could have reacted in other ways. So, if you said something like "sorry I was passive-aggressive to you, but I did it because you didn't hang out with me on that one trip," I would feel angry. I would want to hear simply, "I am really sorry I [did passive-aggressive thing]. I can understand why that would frustrate you." Two wrongs don't make a right, so I wouldn't agree that the fact that my actions (which bothered you) made your actions only half-bad. I'd see it as (a) you had a problem and didn't tell her and held a grudge about it all that time [your bad], and then (b) you hurt her in a passive-aggressive way to get back at her [also your bad]. It sucks that she didn't admit that she had done something that bothered you, but it's kind of a separate topic of discussion, and if you wanted to discuss the thing that she did, you had to bring it up yourself. If someone says "hey something is bothering me," changing the subject to "oh yeah, well I did it because you did this thing that bothered me and you have to take responsibility for that," that would make me really mad. A better way would be to really take full responsibility for what you did. Then separately, maybe even in an entirely different conversation, explain that something she did bothered you.
I'm not sure this applies, as I'm reading between the lines here. But on preview, it looks like stefanie and I independently arrived at the same inclination (though she wrote much more clearly than I did).
posted by salvia at 6:01 PM on November 15, 2010
Since I don't understand why she was so angry (besides "she's irrational and mean" or something), I wonder if there's something you're missing here.
One possibility. Something in your question made me wonder if you were trying to take only partial responsibility for your behavior, by trying to get her to agree she "caused" part of it. You imply that you would have looked like less of an ass if she had included in her conversation the things that you feel she did wrong. I'm not a fan of "I did it because ___." Your actions are your responsibility; she didn't cause them; you could have reacted in other ways. So, if you said something like "sorry I was passive-aggressive to you, but I did it because you didn't hang out with me on that one trip," I would feel angry. I would want to hear simply, "I am really sorry I [did passive-aggressive thing]. I can understand why that would frustrate you." Two wrongs don't make a right, so I wouldn't agree that the fact that my actions (which bothered you) made your actions only half-bad. I'd see it as (a) you had a problem and didn't tell her and held a grudge about it all that time [your bad], and then (b) you hurt her in a passive-aggressive way to get back at her [also your bad]. It sucks that she didn't admit that she had done something that bothered you, but it's kind of a separate topic of discussion, and if you wanted to discuss the thing that she did, you had to bring it up yourself. If someone says "hey something is bothering me," changing the subject to "oh yeah, well I did it because you did this thing that bothered me and you have to take responsibility for that," that would make me really mad. A better way would be to really take full responsibility for what you did. Then separately, maybe even in an entirely different conversation, explain that something she did bothered you.
I'm not sure this applies, as I'm reading between the lines here. But on preview, it looks like stefanie and I independently arrived at the same inclination (though she wrote much more clearly than I did).
posted by salvia at 6:01 PM on November 15, 2010
Oh sigh, now I found tons of typos. Sorry for lack of editing.
posted by salvia at 6:02 PM on November 15, 2010
posted by salvia at 6:02 PM on November 15, 2010
There seem to be so many layers of drama there. What I will suggest is that you think about whether or not you think she was being fair and accurate the more she was accusing you of things and attacking your character. If you think she was distorting things or being irrational, I don't think there's anything you can say to appease her. If you know deep down everything she said was pretty much true, try apologizing without excuses about how she made you do whatever it is you did, and see how that goes.
Frankly though, I would have a hard time trying to be friends with someone if they laid that sort of thing on me. 20+ year friendship or not, it sounds like you two can't stand each other anymore.
posted by wondermouse at 6:58 PM on November 15, 2010
Frankly though, I would have a hard time trying to be friends with someone if they laid that sort of thing on me. 20+ year friendship or not, it sounds like you two can't stand each other anymore.
posted by wondermouse at 6:58 PM on November 15, 2010
Did all the angry emails take place over a short period of time, like a couple of days? Maybe try her again in two weeks? Although not all women get irrational during PMS, some do -- personally I tend to get more fighty and a little bit paranoid.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:01 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by Jacqueline at 12:01 AM on November 16, 2010
When I saw your post title, I wondered if I had written this question! A couple of months ago, one of my closest friends of 25 years went nuts on me. We had a minor awkward thing happen, and then didn't happen to speak for a few weeks. Missing her, I sent an e-mail asking if she was free for dinner the following week, and got back a nasty screed that started something like, "Oh, so now you're speaking to me?" In her mind, during that few weeks that we hadn't spoken, I'd been "not speaking" to her, and she had apparently been stewing over stuff so much that when she heard from me, it just blew--I got character assassination, I got an unrecognizable (to me) history of relationship problems I didn't even know we were having. It was ugly for a bit there.
On my partner's advice, I deleted her e-mails and my replies to her, and have tried to just get past it, seeing if I can forgive her without needing her to name her offenses and ask for forgiveness. She's having a rough time in her life right now, she has a history of thinking people are going to leave her if they're mad at her (and the precipitating event was her making a mistake that was pretty hurtful to me in the short term), and her behavior was also one of the most classic examples of self-fulfilling prophecy I've ever seen in real life ("I'm afraid you'll go away, so I'm going to do everything in my power to make you go away!").
We've seen each other a few times and it's been OK but, for me, tense, and I don't know what long-term effects this will have on the friendship. Things said can't be unsaid, and while I do feel like I've forgiven her, the stuff she said about me has left me feeling kind of rocky, like it's hard to be around her and act naturally knowing she has these thoughts about me. But I do think it was best to follow the advice of my partner and other friends, and chalk it up to her being under a lot of strain, not at her best, and worrying herself into an explosion. Not that that's OK, but they said, and I came to agree, that there's nothing to be gained by pushing her to admit her behavior was really shitty, or demanding an apology. Rather, the question for me going forward (and I think I may only figure this out by living it, not by thinking about it until I figure it out) is, "What kind of relationship can we have given that she did this, she will probably not admit to the shittiness of her behavior, and she probably won't apologize?"
posted by not that girl at 7:13 AM on November 16, 2010
On my partner's advice, I deleted her e-mails and my replies to her, and have tried to just get past it, seeing if I can forgive her without needing her to name her offenses and ask for forgiveness. She's having a rough time in her life right now, she has a history of thinking people are going to leave her if they're mad at her (and the precipitating event was her making a mistake that was pretty hurtful to me in the short term), and her behavior was also one of the most classic examples of self-fulfilling prophecy I've ever seen in real life ("I'm afraid you'll go away, so I'm going to do everything in my power to make you go away!").
We've seen each other a few times and it's been OK but, for me, tense, and I don't know what long-term effects this will have on the friendship. Things said can't be unsaid, and while I do feel like I've forgiven her, the stuff she said about me has left me feeling kind of rocky, like it's hard to be around her and act naturally knowing she has these thoughts about me. But I do think it was best to follow the advice of my partner and other friends, and chalk it up to her being under a lot of strain, not at her best, and worrying herself into an explosion. Not that that's OK, but they said, and I came to agree, that there's nothing to be gained by pushing her to admit her behavior was really shitty, or demanding an apology. Rather, the question for me going forward (and I think I may only figure this out by living it, not by thinking about it until I figure it out) is, "What kind of relationship can we have given that she did this, she will probably not admit to the shittiness of her behavior, and she probably won't apologize?"
posted by not that girl at 7:13 AM on November 16, 2010
Are you male or female? Could she maybe have wanted to date you at some point and she is angry that the feeling wasn't returned?
posted by WeekendJen at 7:28 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by WeekendJen at 7:28 AM on November 16, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Since "The ball is in [your] court," what I'd probably do is send her a note that says, basically, that. "We're clearly in pretty different headspaces about our friendship, and this is kind of a surprise to me. I'm going to take some time and think about things. I'm happy to talk further if you want to, but I think I need to be in a different emotional place to be productive."
And then, you know, do that. Take some time off from communicating with her, and think about what the relationship brings to your life and how much work it's worth to keep it. Sometimes people just drift apart, and it's easier to drift back together later if you can accept that it's not necessarily anybody's fault.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:48 PM on November 15, 2010 [3 favorites]