Does anybody say "palaver"?

November 13, 2010 6:10 AM

Have you ever heard the word "palaver" in actual use in English to describe a group discussion? What other English synonyms are there for a workplace group discussion?

According to dictionary.com, the word palaver does exist in English with the primary definition of "a conference or discussion". I did not know this, and in my 25 years of studying English I have never heard anyone referring to a meeting with this word.

However, I was asked last week what the English translation for the Finnish word "palaveri" is. I could only come up with "meeting". Apparently the Finnish "palaveri" means a get-together of people which is not a meeting, not a lecture, not a negotiation, etc. It is something without a specific agenda but rather an umbrella term for when people meet and want to come to come out with ideas, a good discussion, an agenda etc.

(1) Have you ever heard the word "palaver" in actual use in English? What kind of an activity does it mean to you?
(2) Am I missing something in my vocabulary? What other words do you know that signify a group discussion, especially in the workplace?

posted by keijo to Writing & Language (40 answers total)

I have heard this word used regularly by my English family. Although it seems to me that they tend to use it (incorrectly I guess) to mean something more like "kerfuffle" rather than just a meeting or discussion.
posted by biscotti at 6:16 AM on November 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

"Palaver" is in the dictionary; I've heard it used. We tend to use "colloquy" in the law, and "conference", "stakeholder's meeting" or "roundtable" in my NPO.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:18 AM on November 13, 2010

I've only read palaces in books or said it myself when being tongue-in-cheek.

Another rough synonym would be pow-wow, more generally understood.
posted by meadowlark lime at 6:20 AM on November 13, 2010

^^-- iPhone corrected 'palaver' to 'palaces', which should give you some idea how uncommon the word is.
posted by meadowlark lime at 6:22 AM on November 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

What other words do you know that signify a group discussion, especially in the workplace?

Brainstorming session?
posted by zamboni at 6:22 AM on November 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Stephen King uses the word extensively in the Dark Tower series, and I've used it in real life after getting through (some of) that series.
posted by deezil at 6:24 AM on November 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Palaver is often used in UK English, but generally with the meaning of a fuss or a bother, more in line with this definition from the Longman dictionary. See for example, a search of the Guardian for "palaver." I don't recall ever having heard it used specifically to refer to a meeting.
posted by Jakey at 6:26 AM on November 13, 2010 [6 favorites]

This word is used more regularly in British English than American English. The British sports media use it semi-frequently.
posted by proj at 6:26 AM on November 13, 2010

(1) Palavar, often qualified with, for example, a right palaver, is in common usage in British English but not in the sense of any kind of meeting, more of an awkward/arduous task or an event (possibly a meeting, discussion) that has gone awry.

Example:
A right palaver to get them on...like squeezing a big sleeping bag into a tiny knapsack.

Definitions:
From the BBC:
Palaver - A bother or a fuss. According to the OED, palaver comes from the Portuguese palavra meaning word. Originally palaver was a prolonged conversation or discussion, but its meaning has been corrupted over the years.

From Peevish:
Noun. A tedious fuss or discussion. E.g."What's all this palaver about you and my mum having an argument?" {Informal}


(2) I'd use the word meeting, discussion or get-together, all prefixed by "informal" where necessary.
posted by ceri richard at 6:30 AM on November 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

"^^-- iPhone corrected 'palaver' to 'palaces', which should give you some idea how uncommon the word is."

I don't think the iPhone's predictive text is a very scientific measure of vocabulary usage in any language!
posted by ceri richard at 6:31 AM on November 13, 2010

Sure, my dad used it all the time when I was growing up in India. Probably the influence of British English. It was generally used a bit tongue-in-cheek as mentioned above.
posted by peacheater at 6:32 AM on November 13, 2010

On second thought, the way in which he used it most often was in the sense that ceri richard is talking about -- a needless fuss or bother -- what's all this palaver about blah blah?
posted by peacheater at 6:33 AM on November 13, 2010

Citation from word-origins.com:

"Palaver originated as a piece of naval slang picked up by English sailors in Africa. There they came across Portuguese traders negotiating with the local inhabitants, a process known in Portuguese as palavra ‘speech’ (a descendant of Latin parabola, source of English parable). They took the Portugese word over as palaver, applying it first to ‘negotiations’, and then by extension to ‘idle chatter’."

In German usage, the meaning is predominantly that of 'idle chatter'. Some authors might have a tendency to use it in an archaic way, as 'sitting down and discuss in one or another ritualized form' or something similar.
posted by Namlit at 6:36 AM on November 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I believe it's used by one of Thernardier's henchmen in Les Mis (the Musical, not the book) when M. Thenardier and Eponine argue outside Val Jean's house
posted by chndrcks at 6:38 AM on November 13, 2010

I've heard it used dozens and dozens of times by people from all educational backgrounds. I wouldn't say it's uncommon at all. However, when I hear it, it usually is more in line with the modern meaning biscotti describes. The dictionary.com definition isn't really correct (I would never use it for serious work) - the OED's "prolonged and tedious fuss or discussion" is much better.
posted by turkeyphant at 6:41 AM on November 13, 2010

I've never heard the word used in the context of a group discussion. It's a word I'd use in the context of a kerfuffle, commotion, fuss or bother, or someone making a drama out of nothing. "What a palaver!" (said in the voice of the late Kenneth Williams).
posted by essexjan at 6:54 AM on November 13, 2010

I always knew it in the context of the fourth definition here—as a false or misleading manner of speaking, such as that used by con artists and criminals.
posted by limeonaire at 6:56 AM on November 13, 2010

I don't remember hearing it used in American English, and would not have known its meaning without context. For a substitute, the first word that came to my mind was confab, but it is used as headline shorthand and not likely in conversation. Bull session or brainstorming, depending on the degree of focus? Or even more USian, powwow.
posted by Snerd at 6:58 AM on November 13, 2010

I've never heard the word used in speech in the US. I've seen it in old books. I associate with the colonial era: a palaver is when the natives are having a meeting or a colonial official is having a meeting with the natives. Civilized people, on the other hand, have meetings and conferences.

"Pow-wow," as meadowlark lime pointed out, is the American equivalent, a sort of derogatory term for Native Americans (Canadian, First Nations people) having a meeting or get-together, sometimes used facetiously in other contexts. It's probably not what you want.

To translate palaveri as you've described it, you'll probably have to use a descriptive phrase in English. Phrases like "informal brainstorming session," "exploratory discussion," "prelimary meeting or "prelimary get-together" might work.
posted by nangar at 7:00 AM on November 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Binky the Clown uses the word palaver in Bobcat Goldthwait's masterpiece Shakes the Clown.

And Swype on Android recognizes the word just fine...maybe the iPhone spellchecker is anemic?
posted by JaredSeth at 7:03 AM on November 13, 2010

The Decemberists - On The Bus Mall: "We're two easy targets/ For the old men at the off tracks/ Who paid in PALAVER and crumpled old dollars..."
posted by HerArchitectLover at 7:05 AM on November 13, 2010

According to dictionary.com, the word palaver does exist in English with the primary definition of "a conference or discussion".

Well, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, the meanings as a noun are:

n.
1. a. Idle chatter.
b. Talk intended to charm or beguile.
2. Obsolete. A parley between European explorers and representatives of local populations, especially in Africa.

I've never heard it spoken (with any meaning). I bet turkephant's experience is unusual. The one time I've seen it written (before now) was in a blog post that criticized John Kerry for using the word during his presidential campaign.

This is not a good word to use for meeting, brainstorming session, etc.
posted by John Cohen at 7:05 AM on November 13, 2010

I, myself, have used the word palaver. However, I am a horribly annoying person.
posted by thebrokedown at 7:06 AM on November 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

Apparently the OP is in Finland. And turkeyphant (who's hear it often) is in the UK. That could explain it. Most people here are probably in the US (I am). If there's a UK/US distinction on this, our advice might not be very relevant.
posted by John Cohen at 7:08 AM on November 13, 2010

As far as Colin Meloy (of The Decemberists) using the word, he's rather fond of words more common in the UK (he's from Portland). See "lino" in "Billy Liar," for just one example. It's affected, of course, but it answers your first question. Meloy, an American, uses "palaver." In "On the Bus Mall," it's this definition.
posted by HerArchitectLover at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2010

I have heard it used a fair amount, usually to mean " idle chatter". Similar I think to the example stated above, " what's all this palavar about?" Data point: I am in the US, however I grew up in a family of teachers including English literature teachers. Most of my friends are bewildered by some of the words I think are in common usage
posted by Rapunzel1111 at 7:22 AM on November 13, 2010

Agreeing with above- my british parents would refer to 'much ado about nothing' as a palaver. (have never seen it written before though, actually).
posted by bquarters at 7:40 AM on November 13, 2010

Response by poster: John Cohen, I am in Finland, but I have lived (and studied and worked) for almost 10 years in the UK, and do not recall coming across this.

Then again (responding to proj), I didn't read the sports media.

Thanks for the answers so far. It would be interesting to find out how the word became so widely used in Finland if it really was originally used with regards to European explores and the local populations in Africa. I'll dig into local sources, I guess, but any ideas are appreciated.
posted by keijo at 7:44 AM on November 13, 2010

It definitely seems archaic. In the American SW, it seems to have been both derogatory of idle chatter, and also used in the original sense -- "have a protracted negotiation with the enemy, or a group of people who speak another language." I'd assumed it was a bastardization of the Spanish "Palabras," but that's because I read a lot of SW American history.

Even in rural Texas, I've never heard it used earnestly. Ironically or jokingly maybe, but not in everyday use.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:53 AM on November 13, 2010

Palaver is often used in UK English, but generally with the meaning of a fuss or a bother, more in line with this definition from the Longman dictionary. See for example, a search of the Guardian for "palaver." I don't recall ever having heard it used specifically to refer to a meeting.

What Jakey said. I've never heard it used outside of the UK, or used to mean a meeting.
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on November 13, 2010

I am British but now live in the US (and have done so for 25 years). I've never heard an American say this -- not even myself, since it's a word that sounds kind of silly to me with an American accent (which I have). My parents (also in the US, but still very British, speech-wise) and the rest of my family (residing in the UK) say it all the time -- to mean a fuss in general, or more specifically an extended, time-wasting conversation about something that invents problems where there aren't any.

So chiming in to say, yeah, pretty common in UK English; utterly unheard-of in American English (at least in NY, CA, and the Midwest) -- in my experience.
posted by obliquicity at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2010

My wild guess for the source of the Finnish palaveri is that it comes from European Westerns- genre fiction written about the American West for European markets. They were big in Germany and France, but also in Norway and Finland.
posted by zamboni at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2010

To emphasise Jakey's point, yeah, I have only ever used it, or heard it used, with in it's more negative form, a fuss, a carry-on.
posted by rodgerd at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2010

I recall seeing the word one time. I had to look it up in the dictionary as the context was ambiguous. It was in Carl Jung's description of his trip to Kenya, and a palaver was what he had with top guys in the villages he encountered on his journey.

I don't believe many people in my social or business circles know what this word means, and I cannot recall having heard it in conversation.
posted by bukvich at 11:25 AM on November 13, 2010

Both Wiktionary and my old copy of Webster's have this deriving from Portuguese palavra "talk," "speech." (The Spanish cognate palabra means "word.") This makes sense given the early Portuguese presence in West Africa. Early British explorers and colonists might have used Portuguese as a lingua franca communicate with Africans because some British people would know Portuguese as another European language, and some Africans would know it from prior contact with Portuguese traders.

The modern British meanings "fuss," "kerfuffle," "annoying discussion" might reflect the annoyance of the British colonial officials at having to deal with "palavers" with African natives. Interestingly enough, my old Websters (1967) gives "a palaver between union leaders" as an example of usage, as if discussions between workers or unionists from the point of view of owners, white-color workers or managers were equated with discussions between natives from the point of view of British colonialists. It also gives "an often prolonged parley usually between people of different levels of cultivation or sophistication" as a basic meaning.

The Finnish word palaveri would seem to derive from the English word "palaver" rather than directly from Portuguese, but before it acquired negative connotations in English, and just meant "discussion (with natives)." The only thing Finnish usage seems to have retained is the idea that "palavers" are rather informal, rather than between or with uncivilized people. It might have been borrowed into Finnish in the late 19th or early 20th centuries, before it acquired really negative meanings in English.

I'm just guessing at a lot of this of course.
posted by nangar at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I first encountered it when I read James Joyce's story "The Dead" in high school (in the U.S.) and was totally baffled by it ("The girl glanced back at him over her shoulder and said with great bitterness: 'The men that is now is only all palaver and what they can get out of you.'"). I never heard or read it again till living in England during college; in grad school (back in the U.S.) my own students were baffled by it when I taught "The Dead" in Intro to Literature classes.
posted by scody at 12:24 PM on November 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Seconding the Dark Tower usage, in that series it has a tinge of a serious meeting but not always. Certainly not a kerfluffle, though. I've heard the word used elsewhere, usually similarly meant to sound archaic.

As for powwow as a synonym, it is popular usage in the US, but I have also seen it cause offense with some Native Americans in as much that using the word casually diminishes the specific meaning of powwow as a gathering of tribes involving religious dance (and fry bread and vendors and good times!). I find the casual use mildly ignorant, especially since "huddle" is a perfectly good word that doesn't ironically debase a culture's longheld tradition.
posted by Skwirl at 12:55 PM on November 13, 2010

I only remember ever hearing it in an episode of "Firefly", but that hardly counts as an example of natural language.
posted by Johnny Assay at 1:14 PM on November 13, 2010

I would say that in Australian English, the word would be unusual, but not odd, and mostly associated with British English. Defined as above, a bit of a carry-on, a bit of a fuss.
posted by wilful at 8:15 PM on November 13, 2010

I've heard 'palaver' heaps of times, but generally a palaver means 'bother or a fuss' as mentioned above. Certainly not a meeting, unless it's a particularly troublesome, long or annoying meeting that doesn't reach its objectives.

I wouldn't even think it 'unusual'. Last I heard it in the wild was Friday.
posted by pompomtom at 2:48 PM on November 14, 2010