So Scamming is Legal in Florida?
November 2, 2010 6:30 AM Subscribe
How do I; as a tourist from overseas; deal with a Florida store scamming my wife. The story is inside.
I,m leaving this evening so will deal with this when I get home. I was here on business and Mrs adamvasco went shopping.
She very kindly bought me a pair of Celestron Binoculars model 71135 at International Electronics out at Sawgrass Mall, Ft Lauderdale. Unfortunately she knows as much about binoculars as I know about crochet needles. Ticket price $699.99. She bargained down to $265 , end of stock story etc etc.
The box has the high end sticker and barcode stuck on top of makers barcode.
After signing Visa the store receipt was clipped to the Visa receipt, later she discovered the store receipt stated "No Refunds"; this was at the same time she found out that Celestron sells these binoculars for $29. Lots of tears. I have made a formal complaint to Broward County Consumer protection; and tried to stop the Visa payment through our Spanish bank; apparantly it is is legal to scam people in Florida. They omit that on their advertizing. Question how can I stop these fuckers selling anything to anyone ever again.
Waves...I want to cause a Tsunami. I´ll check back here tomorrow night when I get home.
I,m leaving this evening so will deal with this when I get home. I was here on business and Mrs adamvasco went shopping.
She very kindly bought me a pair of Celestron Binoculars model 71135 at International Electronics out at Sawgrass Mall, Ft Lauderdale. Unfortunately she knows as much about binoculars as I know about crochet needles. Ticket price $699.99. She bargained down to $265 , end of stock story etc etc.
The box has the high end sticker and barcode stuck on top of makers barcode.
After signing Visa the store receipt was clipped to the Visa receipt, later she discovered the store receipt stated "No Refunds"; this was at the same time she found out that Celestron sells these binoculars for $29. Lots of tears. I have made a formal complaint to Broward County Consumer protection; and tried to stop the Visa payment through our Spanish bank; apparantly it is is legal to scam people in Florida. They omit that on their advertizing. Question how can I stop these fuckers selling anything to anyone ever again.
Waves...I want to cause a Tsunami. I´ll check back here tomorrow night when I get home.
Have you spoken directly with Visa to dispute the charge? If not, call the number on your card and see if you can dispute the charge directly with Visa (rather than your bank).
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:45 AM on November 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:45 AM on November 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not a lawyer, but I do live in NYC and have worked in tourist-oriented retail. This doesn't sound like a scam, just an ridiculous amount of markup. A "scam" would have been to charge the credit card the full $699.99
There's a thing called MSRP, which is "manufacturer's suggested retail price," it's what the manufacturer (Celestron, in this case) thinks is a fair price for their product. Stores are not compelled to follow that. If you can haggle someone down four hundred dollars on a consumer good, that means the markup is at least that much.
Now, a lawyer may come in here and say that in Florida there's a maximum legal markup, etc. etc. But I've never seen one. Hell, I've sold goods marked up at least 1000% Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like you were scammed, just ripped off.
posted by griphus at 6:51 AM on November 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
There's a thing called MSRP, which is "manufacturer's suggested retail price," it's what the manufacturer (Celestron, in this case) thinks is a fair price for their product. Stores are not compelled to follow that. If you can haggle someone down four hundred dollars on a consumer good, that means the markup is at least that much.
Now, a lawyer may come in here and say that in Florida there's a maximum legal markup, etc. etc. But I've never seen one. Hell, I've sold goods marked up at least 1000% Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like you were scammed, just ripped off.
posted by griphus at 6:51 AM on November 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: You might be interested in this (Better Business Bureau). In the two complaints tracked, both were resolved, apparently.
BBB report for their Miami store
posted by MuffinMan at 6:52 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
BBB report for their Miami store
posted by MuffinMan at 6:52 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Seconding Meg_Murry. Disputing charges is why CC's exist, imho - but as for what happens with overseas transactions....
As for BBB reports, they are pretty toothless, and not many people check them before shopping. Your better off with contacting The Consumerist.
posted by Old'n'Busted at 7:06 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
As for BBB reports, they are pretty toothless, and not many people check them before shopping. Your better off with contacting The Consumerist.
posted by Old'n'Busted at 7:06 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
What's the name and address of the store?
posted by mecran01 at 7:30 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by mecran01 at 7:30 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, sorry. Here they are: International Electronics.
Google and other sites have online rating systems. I wonder what they would do if 3,000 people rated them with a single star and made a comment about their overpriced binoculars.
posted by mecran01 at 7:32 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Google and other sites have online rating systems. I wonder what they would do if 3,000 people rated them with a single star and made a comment about their overpriced binoculars.
posted by mecran01 at 7:32 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I fully accept I could be wrong and apologize if I have misunderstood the OP's post...
BUT in this day and age to buy anything in the triple digits and above without a simple smart phone web search for market price is unforgivable, whereupon 15 years ago I would be much more understanding.
Retailers can choose to sell at posted prices or allow bargaining: selling at a public posted price commits the retailer not to exploit buyers once they enter the retail store, making the store more attractive to potential customers, while a bargaining strategy has the advantage that it allows the retailer to price discriminate between different types of customer.
In this case the customer saw fit to do the Haggle dance where now the price/value becomes fluid. OP's wife had no qualms of succesfully chopping $450?! off of the sticker price, and as is the outcome of a haggle, there comes a point where both parties agree on a figure or walk away from each other. In this case she must have thought she played the game into the bargain of the day only to realize later that the playa just got played.
The rcpt. states the no return policy, omitting it would definitely ring as shady, but every retailer rcpt. I see clearly states their conditions for returns and refunds as required by law.
I think in some states the return policy is required to be posted at the point of sale counter, I don't know what the case is here in this store.
I am by no means championing the virtues of retailers. In fact quite the opposite, I am always on the lookout to be a well informed and protected consumer by visiting sites like Consumerist and the like. But I just don't see the "scam" here. Only sour grapes at not being savvy.
I was once at the Ritz Carlton and paid $18 for a sandwich I could have gotten in NYC for $7 and forking over the $$ I felt crummy, but it was the Hotel's right to offer a product at a certain price and my fat mouth overruling my common sense to over pay, hence no legal complaint lodged against said Hotelier.
posted by stavx at 7:56 AM on November 2, 2010 [7 favorites]
BUT in this day and age to buy anything in the triple digits and above without a simple smart phone web search for market price is unforgivable, whereupon 15 years ago I would be much more understanding.
Retailers can choose to sell at posted prices or allow bargaining: selling at a public posted price commits the retailer not to exploit buyers once they enter the retail store, making the store more attractive to potential customers, while a bargaining strategy has the advantage that it allows the retailer to price discriminate between different types of customer.
In this case the customer saw fit to do the Haggle dance where now the price/value becomes fluid. OP's wife had no qualms of succesfully chopping $450?! off of the sticker price, and as is the outcome of a haggle, there comes a point where both parties agree on a figure or walk away from each other. In this case she must have thought she played the game into the bargain of the day only to realize later that the playa just got played.
The rcpt. states the no return policy, omitting it would definitely ring as shady, but every retailer rcpt. I see clearly states their conditions for returns and refunds as required by law.
I think in some states the return policy is required to be posted at the point of sale counter, I don't know what the case is here in this store.
I am by no means championing the virtues of retailers. In fact quite the opposite, I am always on the lookout to be a well informed and protected consumer by visiting sites like Consumerist and the like. But I just don't see the "scam" here. Only sour grapes at not being savvy.
I was once at the Ritz Carlton and paid $18 for a sandwich I could have gotten in NYC for $7 and forking over the $$ I felt crummy, but it was the Hotel's right to offer a product at a certain price and my fat mouth overruling my common sense to over pay, hence no legal complaint lodged against said Hotelier.
posted by stavx at 7:56 AM on November 2, 2010 [7 favorites]
As I recall from my Florida days it is not enough to put no refunds on the receipt- it must be posted visibly as well. Exactly HOW visible however is not specified. However it might be worth looking into.
posted by phearlez at 8:09 AM on November 2, 2010
posted by phearlez at 8:09 AM on November 2, 2010
Yeah, sadly this is only a scam in the "you got ripped off" sense of the word, rather than "they illegally deceived you". Probably the best you can hope for is a refund if you pester them enough and send the binocs back (I don't know if they are part of a chain but if so, get in email contact with whatever executives you can). You'll be down postage but presumably that would be less than $265, even from Spain.
Worst case scenario, you never get a refund, and this can be an amusing story to tell the grandkids (like when my Dad miscalculated exchange rates in Kenya and bought a shodduly carved ash-tray from a roadside trader for £35 instead of £3.50).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:28 AM on November 2, 2010
Worst case scenario, you never get a refund, and this can be an amusing story to tell the grandkids (like when my Dad miscalculated exchange rates in Kenya and bought a shodduly carved ash-tray from a roadside trader for £35 instead of £3.50).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:28 AM on November 2, 2010
Oops, shodduly = shoddily.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Couple of things.
1. "Hi, do you sell Celestron binoculars?" "Uhhhh, no, we don't have them now."
2. This is not just some store. It's in a MALL, which gives you another place to escalate your complaint.
3. File a BBB complaint. If the cases were resolved, then maybe they settled the disagreement.
4. Stand outside the store with a sign.
posted by acidic at 8:52 AM on November 2, 2010
1. "Hi, do you sell Celestron binoculars?" "Uhhhh, no, we don't have them now."
2. This is not just some store. It's in a MALL, which gives you another place to escalate your complaint.
3. File a BBB complaint. If the cases were resolved, then maybe they settled the disagreement.
4. Stand outside the store with a sign.
posted by acidic at 8:52 AM on November 2, 2010
4. Stand outside the store with a sign.
He lives in Spain.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:05 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
He lives in Spain.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:05 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
You need to press this with your Visa card issuer to see if you can initiate a chargeback after sending the merchandise back via registered shipping. Also investigate if you have "price protection" coverage on your Visa card.
If enough people attempt chargebacks the store should eventually have a "come to jesus" moment with their Visa merchant account company.
posted by de void at 9:35 AM on November 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
If enough people attempt chargebacks the store should eventually have a "come to jesus" moment with their Visa merchant account company.
posted by de void at 9:35 AM on November 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I feel for you, and I hope this gets resolved in your favor, but it isn't illegal to charge high prices for cheap junk. For what it's worth, at least she didn't pay $700!
posted by rhizome at 10:37 AM on November 2, 2010
posted by rhizome at 10:37 AM on November 2, 2010
Just because this wasn't illegal does not mean it isn't horribly wrong.
There has got to be something that can be done. I know it's only a few hundred bucks but it seems that this isn't an isolated incident.
The consumerist? Letters to the editor in the local paper?
posted by beccaj at 11:15 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
There has got to be something that can be done. I know it's only a few hundred bucks but it seems that this isn't an isolated incident.
The consumerist? Letters to the editor in the local paper?
posted by beccaj at 11:15 AM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In general in the US, if you get scammed you can file a complaint with the Attorney General of the state where the store is. (I don't know if this applies in your case, if they just marked the product up too much, but still charged you the amount they said they would charge.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:54 AM on November 2, 2010
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:54 AM on November 2, 2010
Did you call the store? It sounds like the wrong binoculars are in the box.
posted by fshgrl at 1:38 PM on November 2, 2010
posted by fshgrl at 1:38 PM on November 2, 2010
Unfortunately she knows as much about binoculars as I know about crochet needles.
Rinse; repeat. And thank her profusely for being so thoughtful!
posted by Dick Paris at 4:28 PM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Rinse; repeat. And thank her profusely for being so thoughtful!
posted by Dick Paris at 4:28 PM on November 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for your responses.
All paperwork has now been completed and returned to Broward County Consumer Protection Division.
A letter has been drafted and will be sent tomorrow to Sawgrass Mills - they are Florida's largest Mall relying heavily on international tourism; suggesting they check out this store and let me know they have done so as otherwise I am circulating a letter to all the international airline inflight magazines requesting them not to promote or accept advertisement from a Mall which knowingly allows such practices to take place on its premises. Then I will check out the Consumerist etc. The $30 binoculars are fine and it's the thought behind them that counts most. No issues there.
Sawgrass Mills is supposed to be a quality, high end shopping experience. They have almost as many visitors as Disney
Over the years I have purchased cameras and computers , clothing all with no complaint.
International Electronics are taking a dump in the kitchen and laughing. It should be stopped. What I want as emphazised in the question is how can I stop these fuckers selling anything, to anyone, ever, again.. Their business practice is immoral and unethical and their standard trading modus operandi seems to be ripping off tourists who
A/. Don't realise they are being ripped
B/. Are often out of the country before they work it out.
Without tourism S. Florida goes tits up, but these jerks are still laughing.
posted by adamvasco at 1:37 PM on November 3, 2010
All paperwork has now been completed and returned to Broward County Consumer Protection Division.
A letter has been drafted and will be sent tomorrow to Sawgrass Mills - they are Florida's largest Mall relying heavily on international tourism; suggesting they check out this store and let me know they have done so as otherwise I am circulating a letter to all the international airline inflight magazines requesting them not to promote or accept advertisement from a Mall which knowingly allows such practices to take place on its premises. Then I will check out the Consumerist etc. The $30 binoculars are fine and it's the thought behind them that counts most. No issues there.
Sawgrass Mills is supposed to be a quality, high end shopping experience. They have almost as many visitors as Disney
Over the years I have purchased cameras and computers , clothing all with no complaint.
International Electronics are taking a dump in the kitchen and laughing. It should be stopped. What I want as emphazised in the question is how can I stop these fuckers selling anything, to anyone, ever, again.. Their business practice is immoral and unethical and their standard trading modus operandi seems to be ripping off tourists who
A/. Don't realise they are being ripped
B/. Are often out of the country before they work it out.
Without tourism S. Florida goes tits up, but these jerks are still laughing.
posted by adamvasco at 1:37 PM on November 3, 2010
Your goal is unrealistic. Realistically, the absolute worst that is likely to happen is that some peon from the local government will call to talk about the situation, they'll explain that they haven't broken any laws, and nothing will happen. The mall is not going to kick out a rent-paying business. The in-flight magazine is not going to stop accepting advertising from a paying customer. Consumerist might write an article about it, but it's not going to hurt these guys. Yes, you're right, they're sleazy people, and their business practices unfairly target people who have little leverage. But it's not against the law to be sleazy or unfair. If writing all of these letters makes you feel better, do that. But the best you can hope to get out of this situation is feeling better.
posted by decathecting at 2:23 PM on November 3, 2010
posted by decathecting at 2:23 PM on November 3, 2010
Your goal is unrealistic.
Seconded, for the same reasons that electronics stores in New York City aren't going to be shut down anytime soon.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 1:22 AM on November 4, 2010 [2 favorites]
Seconded, for the same reasons that electronics stores in New York City aren't going to be shut down anytime soon.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 1:22 AM on November 4, 2010 [2 favorites]
I totally empathize with getting ripped off via a retailer not honoring a warranty or their own item return terms or selling defective merchandise - - but this just doesn't fall into that category.
How is this situation different from the movie theatres that charge $6 for a dollar worth of coca cola? That's why many people bring their own food in or just walk right by the concessions counter.
again, A simple froogle search could have prevented the frustration from even happening to begin with.
Good luck with the formal appeals, but a "high end" outlet mall depends on the illusion that what their selling is worth the extra $$, they are not there to sell it at cost + 5% markup across the board. Macys & Bloomingdales always sell their wares at a price I can find much cheaper elsewhere, yet the stores are always packed to the brim with shoppers who for whatever reason find it easier or more comfortable to pay extra.
Unfortunately, tsunami advisory has been canceled...
posted by stavx at 8:57 AM on November 4, 2010
How is this situation different from the movie theatres that charge $6 for a dollar worth of coca cola? That's why many people bring their own food in or just walk right by the concessions counter.
again, A simple froogle search could have prevented the frustration from even happening to begin with.
Good luck with the formal appeals, but a "high end" outlet mall depends on the illusion that what their selling is worth the extra $$, they are not there to sell it at cost + 5% markup across the board. Macys & Bloomingdales always sell their wares at a price I can find much cheaper elsewhere, yet the stores are always packed to the brim with shoppers who for whatever reason find it easier or more comfortable to pay extra.
Unfortunately, tsunami advisory has been canceled...
posted by stavx at 8:57 AM on November 4, 2010
Just to specify (for the sake of future searchers) to be 100% accurate this is the International Electronics Superstore at Sawgrass Mills in Sunrise, FL (33323).
posted by nanojath at 6:15 PM on November 4, 2010
posted by nanojath at 6:15 PM on November 4, 2010
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This thread is closed to new comments.
If the problem is simply that they charged her more money for the item than what another store would have charged her, you're likely out of luck. Except for under some very specific circumstances, it's not illegal in the US to charge higher prices than other people do for the same product.
If, however, they misled her about what product she was buying, you may have recourse for fraud. You're going to need to be more specific about what actually happened.
posted by decathecting at 6:36 AM on November 2, 2010