In search of the perfect pastry
October 5, 2010 1:40 AM Subscribe
I'm trying to find the perfect pastry for my pasties.
Back in my home town there is a pasty shop that makes the best pasties ever. The thing I like most about them is the pastry - its soft and flexible, it isn't at all greasy or flakey.
I found a picture of the pasties on flikr. They're much paler than pasties you get in other shops and the pastry doesn't really taste like pastry at all.
I'm trying to make pasties at home and want to replicate this pastry. I tried a hot-water crust pastry but that didn't work well at all - it was very greasy (the recipe called for 200g lard to 450g flour - maybe a different recipe would work better) and had a kind of grainy texture where it was simultaneously greasy and floury. Maybe I did it wrong but I have no idea if I was even going in the right direction.
TLDR: I'm looking for a recipe for a soft, light pastry that's not greasy or flaky, suitable for making pasties.
Back in my home town there is a pasty shop that makes the best pasties ever. The thing I like most about them is the pastry - its soft and flexible, it isn't at all greasy or flakey.
I found a picture of the pasties on flikr. They're much paler than pasties you get in other shops and the pastry doesn't really taste like pastry at all.
I'm trying to make pasties at home and want to replicate this pastry. I tried a hot-water crust pastry but that didn't work well at all - it was very greasy (the recipe called for 200g lard to 450g flour - maybe a different recipe would work better) and had a kind of grainy texture where it was simultaneously greasy and floury. Maybe I did it wrong but I have no idea if I was even going in the right direction.
TLDR: I'm looking for a recipe for a soft, light pastry that's not greasy or flaky, suitable for making pasties.
Response by poster: I saw that previous question and the pastry is completely different - its not layered at all so definitely not rough puff and its not tough or hard.
posted by missmagenta at 2:07 AM on October 5, 2010
posted by missmagenta at 2:07 AM on October 5, 2010
I've been experimenting with pasty pastry, so I'll try to share what I've worked out so far.
Firstly, most pasties (and from the look of them, yours) are made with shortcrust pastry ingredients, but not the shortcrust pastry method. The mix needs to be pretty much a standard shortcrust, i.e. 2:1 plain flour to fat by weight. I use a half-and-half mix of butter and lard for the fat, so 2oz butter, 2oz lard, 8oz flour, and a pinch of salt. The butter gives a nice rich flavour, while the lard seems to help make the pastry crisp on the outside. My mum, on the other hand, happily uses 'stork' margarine, which is some kind of cheap and nasty cooking fat. Her pasties are still pretty good.
Using very cold fats is absolutely key. If the fats melt during mixing you'll get a greasy pastry that will flake. So use chilled fats, and preferably mix the fat and flour together in a food processor if you have one, to avoid melting the fats with your hands.
The usual thing with shortcrust is to avoid over-handling. For pasties however, you generally need to knead the dough a bit. You want a more resilient texture so that the pastry doesn't fall apart into crumbs, so stretching the gluten just a little is a good thing. Water content of the dough is also a big factor in texture. Use very cold water (again, you don't want to melt the fat). The amount is the important thing - too little and your pastry will be crumbly and soft, too much and it'll be harder and more elastic (the water helps the gluten to stretch more). I err towards a slightly wet pastry because I like a firm, elastic pastry, which I roll quite thinly.
I'd say that your pastry looks a bit more like a pie crust than traditional pasty pastry. On that basis, I'd say use less water (but enough so that the dough stays together when rolling) and don't over-do the kneading. It might take some fine-tuning. Chill the pastry and let it rest before rolling it.
And when it still doesn't come out right, try again. Pastry is one of those things that you ultimately learn by repetition and feel.
By the way, that other thread was by me (in an earlier incarnation). And while I marked the rough puff pastry as a best answer, it was a red herring. The results were perfectly edible though, just not very pasty-like.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 3:18 AM on October 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
Firstly, most pasties (and from the look of them, yours) are made with shortcrust pastry ingredients, but not the shortcrust pastry method. The mix needs to be pretty much a standard shortcrust, i.e. 2:1 plain flour to fat by weight. I use a half-and-half mix of butter and lard for the fat, so 2oz butter, 2oz lard, 8oz flour, and a pinch of salt. The butter gives a nice rich flavour, while the lard seems to help make the pastry crisp on the outside. My mum, on the other hand, happily uses 'stork' margarine, which is some kind of cheap and nasty cooking fat. Her pasties are still pretty good.
Using very cold fats is absolutely key. If the fats melt during mixing you'll get a greasy pastry that will flake. So use chilled fats, and preferably mix the fat and flour together in a food processor if you have one, to avoid melting the fats with your hands.
The usual thing with shortcrust is to avoid over-handling. For pasties however, you generally need to knead the dough a bit. You want a more resilient texture so that the pastry doesn't fall apart into crumbs, so stretching the gluten just a little is a good thing. Water content of the dough is also a big factor in texture. Use very cold water (again, you don't want to melt the fat). The amount is the important thing - too little and your pastry will be crumbly and soft, too much and it'll be harder and more elastic (the water helps the gluten to stretch more). I err towards a slightly wet pastry because I like a firm, elastic pastry, which I roll quite thinly.
I'd say that your pastry looks a bit more like a pie crust than traditional pasty pastry. On that basis, I'd say use less water (but enough so that the dough stays together when rolling) and don't over-do the kneading. It might take some fine-tuning. Chill the pastry and let it rest before rolling it.
And when it still doesn't come out right, try again. Pastry is one of those things that you ultimately learn by repetition and feel.
By the way, that other thread was by me (in an earlier incarnation). And while I marked the rough puff pastry as a best answer, it was a red herring. The results were perfectly edible though, just not very pasty-like.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 3:18 AM on October 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
Don't know if you're UK based or not, but the Great British Bake Off on BBC2 had a segment on the classic Cornish pastie. Can't remember the ins and outs, but there was definitely something different about the pastry:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00b1l9g
posted by fatfrank at 5:15 AM on October 5, 2010
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00b1l9g
posted by fatfrank at 5:15 AM on October 5, 2010
Response by poster: I saw that episode - mostly because the pasty shop from my home town was supposed to be on it but the section was very short (and didn't even mention where the shop was! maybe because it wasn't in cornwall). The pasties the contestants made on the show were not the same pastry - if you watch when they bite or cut in to it the pastry holds its shape even though the filling has reduced (leaving a big gap between the filling and the pastry case). The pastry I'm looking for wouldn't do that, its too soft and saggy to do that.
posted by missmagenta at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2010
posted by missmagenta at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2010
A tip I got from Cook's Illustrated: you can experiment with substituting cold vodka for part of the cold water in your pastry recipe (their piecrust recipe uses a 1/2-and-1/2 mix of water and vodka, but I'm sure you could vary the ratio as needed). Alcohol moistens the dough but doesn't develop the gluten as water does, so you get pastry that's manageably soft without being tough once baked. The alcohol evaporates in the oven, and I haven't been able to taste the vodka at all in the finished crust.
posted by Bardolph at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2010
posted by Bardolph at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2010
I'm assuming by "pasty shop" that you're in the UK.
I go with 250g plain flour, 50g butter and 50g lard (I actually use Trex, the veggie equivalent, which has a better consistency). I pulse the butter and lard together in a blender to soften and smooth it and then chill the results for a bit. I find this mixture helps keep the fats soft while they're cooler than room temperature.
Butter helps a lot with the colour, flavour and texture of the pastry but it's a pain using it cos when it's chilled enough to be useful you have to put some real force into rubbing the fats in to the flour. Do that and you're killing the pastry via a different means.
When you do rub the results in to the flour between thumb and finger be gentle as you're rubbing, and have a bit of distance between your hands and the bowl the rubbed flour is going to fall in to.
I tried this in the US once. I was trying to single handedly introduce deepest darkest western MA to bacon and egg pie. I couldn't find any lard so tried using that horrible shortening stuff. I think a combination of that, the fineness of American flour and the horror of the house owner looking over my shoulder as I used my hands to rub the fat into the flour were the cause of the disaster. A simple "you do it then" fixed that particular problem.
posted by vbfg at 5:42 AM on October 5, 2010
I go with 250g plain flour, 50g butter and 50g lard (I actually use Trex, the veggie equivalent, which has a better consistency). I pulse the butter and lard together in a blender to soften and smooth it and then chill the results for a bit. I find this mixture helps keep the fats soft while they're cooler than room temperature.
Butter helps a lot with the colour, flavour and texture of the pastry but it's a pain using it cos when it's chilled enough to be useful you have to put some real force into rubbing the fats in to the flour. Do that and you're killing the pastry via a different means.
When you do rub the results in to the flour between thumb and finger be gentle as you're rubbing, and have a bit of distance between your hands and the bowl the rubbed flour is going to fall in to.
I tried this in the US once. I was trying to single handedly introduce deepest darkest western MA to bacon and egg pie. I couldn't find any lard so tried using that horrible shortening stuff. I think a combination of that, the fineness of American flour and the horror of the house owner looking over my shoulder as I used my hands to rub the fat into the flour were the cause of the disaster. A simple "you do it then" fixed that particular problem.
posted by vbfg at 5:42 AM on October 5, 2010
Response by poster: Interesting idea Bardolph, I was able to google up the recipe but many of the comments mention how flakey the pastry was but I don't know whether its the vodka or something else in the recipe making it flakey.
posted by missmagenta at 5:51 AM on October 5, 2010
posted by missmagenta at 5:51 AM on October 5, 2010
I make the Iron Range (US) version all the time--cold fat (I prefer butter/lard combinations), ice-cold water and letting the dough rest is key. Our crusts tend to be thicker than what you have there, and if they sagged too much, they'd be underbaked.
I made pumpkin pasties once with an oil pastry recipe I found in this book, and the pastry was much softer. (you'll have to scroll for the oil pastry recipe.)
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 6:41 AM on October 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I made pumpkin pasties once with an oil pastry recipe I found in this book, and the pastry was much softer. (you'll have to scroll for the oil pastry recipe.)
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 6:41 AM on October 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
GOSH those look good.
So if you're trying to avoid flakiness, which is the opposite method from pie crusts, I'd suggest you actually break most if not all of the rules for pie dough, as suggested above from expert baker le morte de bea arthur.
To wit:
1. Use a lard or shortening, or lard/shortening in combination with butter.
2. In this case I think do *not* actually keep the ingredients cold. Flakiness comes from unintegrated fats/butters. In your case, you want the flour and the fats to meld totally, without becoming rocky.
3. Do not overwork but do integrate quite thoroughly.
I'd do an experiment with shortening and butter, about half and half of each, to three parts flour and less than 1 part water, as needed.
But really I do suspect that these pasties have no butter whatsoever. And I think you'll find that shortening is too gross. Too much like eating plastic.
The pasties I grew up with were these, U.P. style, and the recipe makes a lot of sense:
So if you're trying to avoid flakiness, which is the opposite method from pie crusts, I'd suggest you actually break most if not all of the rules for pie dough, as suggested above from expert baker le morte de bea arthur.
To wit:
1. Use a lard or shortening, or lard/shortening in combination with butter.
2. In this case I think do *not* actually keep the ingredients cold. Flakiness comes from unintegrated fats/butters. In your case, you want the flour and the fats to meld totally, without becoming rocky.
3. Do not overwork but do integrate quite thoroughly.
I'd do an experiment with shortening and butter, about half and half of each, to three parts flour and less than 1 part water, as needed.
But really I do suspect that these pasties have no butter whatsoever. And I think you'll find that shortening is too gross. Too much like eating plastic.
The pasties I grew up with were these, U.P. style, and the recipe makes a lot of sense:
1/2 pound lardposted by RJ Reynolds at 6:44 AM on October 5, 2010
1 cup boiling water
4 cups flour
1 tablespoon salt
Pour water over the lard until the lard is dissolved. Add salt to flour and mix into a ball. Wrap in Saran Wrap and refrigerate overnight.
Nah RJ Reynolds - that's a hot water crust - it will be very hard (although not flakey)
Def no to the Vodka - that's to promote flakiness by buffering the glutens when you knead.
My guess based on your description of the crust is that it is a relatively lean dough - maybe even yeasted. try making a relatively low hydration bread dough with a resonable amount of fat mixed in (oil would be my first attempt), raise, pull into very small rounds, fill, crimp, wash with egg (those pasties you have are def washed with egg or cream), don't proof, and bake straight away. (if you wanted it a bubblier crust you could make the dough more hydrated.
posted by JPD at 7:00 AM on October 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Def no to the Vodka - that's to promote flakiness by buffering the glutens when you knead.
My guess based on your description of the crust is that it is a relatively lean dough - maybe even yeasted. try making a relatively low hydration bread dough with a resonable amount of fat mixed in (oil would be my first attempt), raise, pull into very small rounds, fill, crimp, wash with egg (those pasties you have are def washed with egg or cream), don't proof, and bake straight away. (if you wanted it a bubblier crust you could make the dough more hydrated.
posted by JPD at 7:00 AM on October 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Pasties are a Cornish thing, but since their are so many Finns here, they've influenced pasty production here (I'm another Yooper). The Finns use beef suet, for whatever that's worth.
The baker husband suggests using egg yolks and cream instead of water, as if you were making a non-sweet sugar cookie dough.
posted by Leta at 9:38 AM on October 5, 2010
The baker husband suggests using egg yolks and cream instead of water, as if you were making a non-sweet sugar cookie dough.
posted by Leta at 9:38 AM on October 5, 2010
I'd follow le morte de bea arthur and start with the classic shortcrust "half fat to flour, half lard to butter/margarine" with a splash of water and a decent amount of kneading to develop gluten. I wouldn't be too fussy about the butter/marg choice; that said, I might also be tempted to try suet (or Atora's vegetarian equivalent) instead of the lard, just to see how it does.
It's not going to be a hot-water crust, which is pork / Scotch pie territory, but I think it might have a fair bit in common with the crust of Lancashire's own array of pies. (Oh, butter pie.)
posted by holgate at 12:05 PM on October 5, 2010
It's not going to be a hot-water crust, which is pork / Scotch pie territory, but I think it might have a fair bit in common with the crust of Lancashire's own array of pies. (Oh, butter pie.)
posted by holgate at 12:05 PM on October 5, 2010
any crust that uses solid shortening will be crumbly or flakey just because of how the fat molecules interact with the flour.
posted by JPD at 12:29 PM on October 5, 2010
posted by JPD at 12:29 PM on October 5, 2010
I've had my best results with suet+butter instead of lard+butter, but that was because I was aiming to get as close as possible to the kind of pasty that's most common in Cornish bakeries. I don't think you'd get the softer sort of pastry used in missmagenta's pasties by using suet. I used a food processor, which was critical for getting the suet chopped really finely into the flour; I think that helped to avoid flakiness in the end result.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 1:14 PM on October 5, 2010
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 1:14 PM on October 5, 2010
Response by poster: If anyone is still interested, I've settled on a recipe. It might not be a perfect replication of my Bolton pasties (the memory fades) but they're pretty good IMHO. I decided to go with approx 125ml Sunflower oil, 450g plain flour, 1 egg yolk and 75ml milk+75ml water. The egg yolk made a big difference to the pastry, it was much smoother and more flexible and had a better texture when cooked (not floury). I don't know how much difference the sunflower oil makes but since I'm eating them nearly every day now, I feel much better about that than lard.
Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions.
posted by missmagenta at 1:53 PM on November 4, 2010
Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions.
posted by missmagenta at 1:53 PM on November 4, 2010
oil keeps it from getting flakey, but prevents glutens from forming so it stays tender.
posted by JPD at 2:17 PM on November 4, 2010
posted by JPD at 2:17 PM on November 4, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by misteraitch at 1:53 AM on October 5, 2010